LCA News and Discussions

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Jul 2012 17:08

Practically no 3rd or 4th Gen aircraft can reach their maximum speed due to time, fuel and space constraint. The max practical limit is around Mach 1.4 for a few seconds.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2012 18:55

mach 1.8 using 414 at high altitude with what payload?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 22 Jul 2012 19:35

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1313679

was just going over some links. this one says -

The ASTE will be given two LCA aircraft—the Limited Series Production 7 and 8 (LSP 7 & 8 )—for user trials.

During the user trials, the angle of attack would be increased from the present 20-22 degrees to 26-28 degrees. Similarly, the gravitation (G) limit would be raised from the present 6Gs to 8Gs.

doesn't it mean the AOA tests may have already commenced on the LSP 7?? so they are not waiting for the LSP 6 for AOA atleast??

another link says -

Krishna said most of the weapons systems being integrated onto Tejas were approved, but there would also be some special weapons, details of which are classified information.

what might be these 'special weapons'??

anybody??

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jul 2012 19:42

Classified

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2012 20:09

.

increases the guess work from python-5, harpoons to nuked tipped smart ones.

but, the platform is all ours. so, we can do anything even launch hypersonic brahmos if the radars can be correspondingly updated. space [internal, external and outer ] is the limit.

omdhar · Post by **omdhar** » 22 Jul 2012 23:18

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 084982.cms

The latest assessment of Tejas, which has now clocked close to 2,000 flights in its almost three-decade-long saga, holds the light-weight fighter will be capable of firing guns, rockets and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well as air-to-air refuelling only by 2015 at the earliest, say defence ministry sources. That is when the single-engine Tejas will become fully combat-ready after getting the final operational clearance (FOC). The review suggests that the fighter is again headed to miss a deadline. The project was started in 1983 to replace Mig 21s.

TOI reporter Rajat Pandit funded by western arms mafia wants to disgrace all development in LCA just before IOC 2. Its requirement of IAF which kept changing demanding world best and thus delayed project. Its just recently its showed interest in it. How many fighter around world performed flawlessly as LCA since its first flight in 2001. Moreover, its our pride that we developed it from scratch in 20 years unlike other nations in the field who have vast 50-100 years experience. We should support and put more effort to make the LCA project a success. It will help bring confidence and develop more complicated project, industry and market.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jul 2012 23:47

I would say this.. by 2015, we have an operating squadron..and is a 4++ and near 5th gen a/c, what makes us all think it is lost cause effort? no body has ever measured LCA's RCS.. and it is small, so, for 100km range, even Raptors will find hard to track LCA. LCA could get the same LPI radar with switch mode and burst mode scanning and tracking., and in the future a definite platform for passive scanning and tracking. it only gets to 4.99 gen, and nothing less.

This puppy is going to be world beater indeed, and not just Arjun Mk2 in its class., and furthermore this platform would be our super hornet of the future when one thinks about a twin engined LCA Mk3.[possible thought, just following the trails of M4K> Rafale, and SH->JSF]

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 23 Jul 2012 02:15

But wont that advantage be lost if you have a full weapons load out?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2012 07:27

if the idea is for Tejas to run CAP and go after strike a/c intruding into our airspace, I feel developing a stealth weapons carrier sized like the usual drop tanks with 2xderby/astra each would make sense.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2012 08:52

140 (40 Mk1) LCA Mk2 jets for IAF and 60 NLCAs should be concrete by sometime soon, when per schedule later months of 2012 is all set for derby and phython5 integration testing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jul 2012 10:18

Karan M wrote:There are unlikely to be any significant challenges to the integration of the BVR missile to the radar itself, because the missile chosen for the interim LCA fit, is the Rafael Derby. Made by IAI, the same company which helped us with the MMR "fix". So software codes are available.

...

True. Derby and/or Python-5 integration with hybrid MMR should not be an issue as the Israelis have already done that. The main work will be on qualifying the AAM missiles on the LCA -- planning and validating launch/release parameters.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 23 Jul 2012 11:37

avinashpeter wrote:I was talking to a person who is closely working on LSP-8. He says that the LCA struggles to fly over 0.8Mach for prolonged period. It vibrates and rattles when it tries to do so...

Without proper context, these kind of information means nothing. One end, it could be something overheard from a conversation, to the other end, it may even be first hand from someone who did the complete analysis of a problem.

More than a decade ago, I was the principal designer for a fiber transceiver project. It was a very ambitious project. The initial protocypes had poor SNR performance, which was traced to certain design choices of pin/trace orientation, which was analyzed and corrected to obtain performance well exceeding the spec.

But the surprising thing was, I started getting a lot of 'concerned queries', and 'sympathetic support' about 'being forced to take an over-ambitious project' etc. I guessed what is going on, and fixed the problem by pptfying the issue, analysis and the very ingenious solution that resulted in 'performance exceeding expectations' and making a bigg show out of it with top management.

Stuff like that always happen. People get a piece of information, and tend to run with it. It could be on the positive side also. Here at BRF, we often read a lot of positive speculation into little data points.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2012 18:28

for example:

http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?s ... N=71411357

"The parameters listed as untested during initial operational clearance in January 2011--including all-weather clearance, lightning clearance and wake penetration--are yet to be proven on the Tejas. Certain other performance issues, including minimum/maximum g-limits and certain precision-weapon tests, are to be demonstrated.

Means, positive aspects of testing data yet to be seen on the public domain.

Preliminary design and configuration studies of the $542 million Tejas Mk. 2 effort, to build a variant powered by the General Electric F414 turbofan, have been completed. The more powerful aircraft is expected to see prototyping by 2013 and a first flight by 2014--right about the time the Tejas Mk. 1 is declared fully operational. The IAF has said it will take in at least 83 Mk. 2s if the version meets performance requirements, including a smaller maintenance footprint, shorter takeoff and better turn rate.

Of course the negative here is how does the Snecma supported 90kN would replace 98kN 414s? Positive: 160 orders for Mk2 from IAF.

/Copyright 2012 The McGraw-Hill Companies

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 23 Jul 2012 19:53

^^^^We are just looking at wet thrust numbers to compare two engines which IMHO is wrong. If EJ200 is taken as an example it has a dry/wet thrust of 60/89 kN while 414 gives out 62.3/98 kN. Further EJ200 weighs 989kg giving it a thrust to weight ratio of 6.18/9.18 while 414 weighs 1110 kg giving it a thrust to weight ratio of 5.72/9 (again dry/wet).

So my point is that Snecma supported 90kN engine can replace 98kN 414 and even provide performance advantages (as it could have better dry twr).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jul 2012 20:19

well, changes in MTOW for Mk2 is now is 5K ton + 1ton weapons load from Mk1 design. plus more fuel weight and increased size of mk2 by a meter or so + additional component[features requested by IAF] weight.

plus, close combat one might rely more on wet than dry.no?

--

further, still under development snecma M88-4E (even if one considers 20% up thrust changes due to some super duper french tech), it would be 60kN dry.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 23 Jul 2012 20:41

^^^^ What you said is correct. But I was talking about thrust to weight ratio of the engine alone. As i showed in my previous post, 90kN EJ200 has better thrust to weight ratio than the 98kN 414. So, EJ200 in Mk2 should provide better performance in both dry and wet thrust regimes.

So to effectively replace 414 in Mk2, the GTRE_SNECMA engine would have to give 60kN/90kN dry/wet thrust while weighing about 990 kg.

I was looking at vanilla M88 numbers and it has thrust of 50/75 kN while weighing only 897 kg giving it a twr of 5.7:1/8.5:1 (dry/wet) which isn't that much lesser than what f414 gives.

Just for comparison f404 gives twr of 4.8:1/8.3:1, which is way less than any of the three engine we talked about.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 23 Jul 2012 23:53

http://www.defencenow.com/news/804/drdo ... -well.html

DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on Tejas Mark 2 as Well

The state-run Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) have received sanctions to pursue the second phase of AEW&CS (Airborne Early Warning and Control System) programme. In a recent report, DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat has stated that the project will be called AEW&CS India and the requisite sanctions have been granted for the same. Besides, the homegrown AESA radar will also be integrated into the Tejas Mark II LCA.

According to DRDO Chief Dr.VK Saraswat, the AEW&CS project will be developed like the three Phalcon AEW&C systems acquired from Israel. Once the full clearance is acquired, DRDO will be selecting a platform based upon the radar configuration. DRDO indicated that the full clearance from the government is imminent since sanctions have been given.

Regarding the DRDO strategy, the indigenous Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) capabilities will be developed through a two pronged approach. The first phase will involve the mounting of the already developed radar system onto the Embraer aircraft from Brazil. The first of the three Embraer aircraft will be in India by this month end.

DRDO Chief Saraswat stated that the first phase is going smoothly the radar system will be integrated on the first Embraer aircraft this month. He added that dummy radar has already been integrated in Brazil on the platform and DRDO is satisfied with all parameters and integration activities of aircraft. Basically, the first phase of the AWACS will have surveillance capabilities in limited sectors with limited endurance capabilities.

Since two more Embraer aircraft will come to India next year, the indigenous radars are also getting ready for integration on them. DRDO has indicated that the AWACS project is its priority and that the three Embraer aircraft with the AWACS systems will be completely operational by 2014-15, according to DRDO.

Regarding the AEW&CS India project, DRDO indicated that it will be developing a complete 360 degree surveillance system. The technology which has been realized for the AWACS programme will be directly applicable in the second phase of the project. However, the configuration will be to ensure that there is 360 degree coverage. Unlike the phase one system with limited endurance, this will have larger power and reach in terms of the surveillance capability.

DRDO Chief VK Saraswat has also divulged into the details of the indigenously developed Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in the AEW&CS project. Hailing the radar as the one the best in the world, DRDO chief said that it can capture images and send to the ground control centers besides incorporating all the features of an airborne surveillance system. It has unmatchable resolution, performance and electronic warfare capability.

The AESA radar is also expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mark II LCA besides other programmes. DRDO Chief added that the work is already on and the Tejas Mark-2 will have nothing but the AESA radar. The DRDO lab LRDE is working on the TR (Transmitter & Receiver) modules for the same. Apparently, it is now possible to configure small as well as large AESA radar. The advantage of AESA is that more power can be derived if you increase the numbers of TR modules. DRDO’s AESA radar will be of same size and volume of the present radar integrated on Tejas Mark-1. Once the work starts for the Mark-2 of Tejas aircraft, the old radar will be simply replaced by the indigenous AESA radar.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 00:01

^good but more data needs to be dug.

is this the hybrid one, meaning the indigenous t/r modules is getting read? will we be taking all the elta components soon? I am sure, there is some level of purchase agreement with Elta folks, and the number of 2032 hybrids needs to be worked with.

If we are to replace everything indigenous, then that is exactly what we want.. I am sure, from third squadron onwards, LCA MMR AESA could play active, while replaced existing ones could be used for mig upgrades later.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jul 2012 04:34

Karan M wrote:
At low altitudes, the Ge404F2J3 had less thrust and the LCA's top speed was limited at sea level. Even so, it went supersonic with the IN20. They are making further changes to lessen drag, and the Ge404IN20 comes with 90 kn thrust

The vanilla GE-F404 produces 78kn of wet thrust. An improvement of 12kn would be impossible without a major redesign, wouldn't it? I highly doubt, that that 90kn figure is accurate. It would put the engine in the EJ-200 class.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Jul 2012 05:32

^^^ you will have to prove ADA wrong

http://tejas.gov.in/specifications/powerplant.html

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Jul 2012 09:04

indranilroy wrote:^^^ you will have to prove ADA wrong

http://tejas.gov.in/specifications/powerplant.html

indranil, all open source info says it is 85KN including this GE Press release. i have not seen any info at least in the open domain of further increase of thrust of this engine.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2012 09:14

The 90 Kn could be the emergency thrust used for few seconds that comes at cost of engine life but 85 Kn could be what it is , even i remember reading it was 85 kN.

They will have to make signifcant changes to original F-404 including new hot parts to get to 90kN level which actually will make it a new class of engine

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 09:32

No, Austin it would be F-414 and not F-404. There is a slight change in the size, but not that critically large for the production version of mk2.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 24 Jul 2012 10:26

vic wrote:Except fifth gen super cruise aircraft, no aircraft flies for "prolonged" periods over Mach 0.8

Not sure about that, most commercial airliners cruise at 0.7 to 0.9 Mach and turbo-prop aircrafts cruise at 0.5Mach.

Fifth gen aircrafts like F-22 cruise at 1.4Mach.

I think pretty much every aircraft worth it's salt should be abale to cruise at 0.8mach for as long as it's fuel lasts.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Jul 2012 10:41

The AESA radar is also expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mark II LCA besides other programmes. DRDO Chief added that the work is already on and the Tejas Mark-2 will have nothing but the AESA radar. The DRDO lab LRDE is working on the TR (Transmitter & Receiver) modules for the same. Apparently, it is now possible to configure small as well as large AESA radar. The advantage of AESA is that more power can be derived if you increase the numbers of TR modules. DRDO’s AESA radar will be of same size and volume of the present radar integrated on Tejas Mark-1. Once the work starts for the Mark-2 of Tejas aircraft, the old radar will be simply replaced by the indigenous AESA radar.

Just one question when did we select the Development partner for the new AESA radar ??? i remember DRDO sending request but never heard about any selection , DRDO chief seems to be on over drive lately

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2012 10:49

SaiK wrote:No, Austin it would be F-414 and not F-404. There is a slight change in the size, but not that critically large for the production version of mk2.

I am talking of F404-GE-IN20 , I dont think the thrust of ~ 90 Kn is true as the OEM says its 85 Kn.

Tejas Mk2 would have GE F414-GE-INS6 with 98 Kn of thrust

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2012 11:26

from Feb2012, it appears the proj for Tejas aesa attained full approval in Jan2012...must be Elta as the partner without fanfare. also good details on Swathi WLR.
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2903/stories/2 ... 309800.htm

Anil Kumar Singh, who is also Project Director for the Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) radar, called it “an ambitious project”. The project was approved in January. The main role of the radar, which will be integrated with the fighter aircraft, is to direct the fire accurately from the aircraft. It will feature advanced electronic counter, counter measures (ECCMs). The radar will direct the fire from air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea missiles.

A derivative of Rajendra is Swathi, which was developed in the aftermath of the Kargil conflict. When shells are fired from an enemy artillery gun or mortar, the WLR will track their trajectory and thus identify the gun's location. It can locate, in a few seconds, large mortars positioned 20 km away and guns positioned 30 km away. “This radar can see up to seven shells at the same time. The WLR, in its secondary role, can track the fall of shots from our own weapons to give corrections to our fire,” said R.V. Narayana, Project Director of Swathi. Swathi went through extensive trials at the Army's test range in Pokhran in Rajasthan and its performance was found to be among the best in the world, he added. “We went for concurrent engineering where the development, user and production agencies worked together from day one. Within two months of proving the prototype, the production model went for user trials,” he said. Swathi has been cleared for production and is being inducted into the Army.

wilson_th · Post by **wilson_th** » 24 Jul 2012 12:23

went for concurrent engineering where the development, user and production agencies worked together from day one. Within two months of proving the prototype, the production model went for user trials,” he said

only if we follow similar approach in other areas as well.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 24 Jul 2012 13:38

wilson_th wrote:
went for concurrent engineering where the development, user and production agencies worked together from day one. Within two months of proving the prototype, the production model went for user trials,” he said
only if we follow similar approach in other areas as well.

works only if you have extensive prior experience in the field, fallbacks for any parts failing, already developed prototypes at hand- because we had Rajendra, we could develop Swati in that time frame.

In short MAY work only work for iterative development i.e. if you are moving 1.0.0 to 1.0.1, no chance in hell if it 0 to 0.0.1

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2012 14:09

yes and the likes of raytheon and thales have so many radars and kit under the belt, for them coming up with any soln has generally become 1.0.0 -> 1.0.1
building blocks, solns to expected problems, test results, protos of old kit, trained engineers are already there
more products we develop it becomes easier.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Jul 2012 14:53

Dint the Americans prevent Israel from providing the AESA radar for LCA? So sharing tech is allowed though? I just wish this development is a result of tech denial and would eventually result in a completely indigenous tech like the fly by wire control system.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 19:01

See 2052, the side lobe AESA panel interface, and dynamically shaping the radiation pattern is the main reason for its high tracking capability of 64 targets. Plus the advanced feature set perhaps have american components, but largely the software is all Elta and israel ownership. It has to be cleverly dealt in terms.. and one of the reason we have the hybrid decision. It would only reveal more if one sees a khaan sanction and banning if we publicly announce AESA MMR with Elta 2052s. Now, it would be all different story if we can do it all by ourselves.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jul 2012 20:12

Karan M wrote: Note that the LCA MMR is basically the hardware from the original MMR (LRDE antenna, TWT, receiver-exciter/data processor, combined with Israeli signal processor & Israeli software).

Hope they have taken into account the inevitable Trojans.

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Jul 2012 20:26

The AESA programme is just starting, I would expect around 10 years before we see squadron level service

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 22:38

One could always buy it outright [if available], and evaluate various parameters from a use-case point of view.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jul 2012 22:51

Pranav wrote:
Karan M wrote: Note that the LCA MMR is basically the hardware from the original MMR (LRDE antenna, TWT, receiver-exciter/data processor, combined with Israeli signal processor & Israeli software).
Hope they have taken into account the inevitable Trojans.

More like I should have taken into account the inevitable bee in your bonnet, with your fixation on trojans in every thread...pls. give it a rest. And no, please don't sidetrack the topic into EVMs or ctrl+c articles about trojans etc...

And yes, they are aware of the possibility of trojans and do keep that in mind..

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 24 Jul 2012 23:27

^^^

KARAN M

are they researching carbon nanotube and graphene composites for the LCA?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Jul 2012 08:30

Karan M wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Hope they have taken into account the inevitable Trojans.
More like I should have taken into account the inevitable bee in your bonnet, with your fixation on trojans in every thread...pls. give it a rest. And no, please don't sidetrack the topic into EVMs or ctrl+c articles about trojans etc...

And yes, they are aware of the possibility of trojans and do keep that in mind..

Tch tch, take it easy. It's folks who have no answers who tend to lash out in rage. If you are aware of any comprehensive steps to deal with deeply embedded hardware Trojans, which are increasingly standard in all defense equipment, you are welcome to post it.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 Jul 2012 08:37

mahadevbhu wrote:^^^

KARAN M

are they researching carbon nanotube and graphene composites for the LCA?

Are they doing that for J-10, F-16, Rafale, etc.?

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 25 Jul 2012 09:43

Any equipment that is software driven (these days 100% of the equipment is software driven and or embedded system) with their own micro code or chips is expected to be coming with trojans and that is given.

See the Linux thread on this very forum US Navy moved away from windows to Linux because of virus!

All software including OS have to be our own otherwise it's vulnerable some way or the other