Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[rohitvats]

China is not above anything unethical. Your intuitive point about claims over West Bhutanese territory seems logical.

During WWII, the Germans invaded France through Belgium, in order to bypass the Maginot Line (military barrier created by France along the Franco/German border.) This would be analogous to China invading India through Bhutan. Living adjacent to a very powerful, unscrupulous neighbor, India is faced with unique problems that may not yet have prior analogies in military history.

rajrang sahab,

IA maintains a training team in Bhutan called IMTRAT - Indian Military Training Team. From what I understand, we also keep close vigil on things on the ground on Tibet Bhutan border.

[rohitvats]

1. We can argue that (a) intuitively, mountainous terrain can "soak" up (demand) a lot more manpower unlike plains, especially for offensive operations and (b) mountain divisions are smaller in size compared to plains divisions. For these two reasons, each corps should not be limited to the traditional 3 dvisions/corps (based on the plains mindset). Perhaps 4 or 5 divisions are needed per corps. This would be especially true for 3rd Corps with large AOR.

Mountains present another challenge in terms of difficulty in exercising proper command and control. It all boils down to restricted movement in the mountains and constraint it places on logistics and lateral movement of men and material. On the contrary, it is advisable to have more Corps HQs with 2 divisions under each Corps. This helps in rationalization of Area of Responsibility (AOR) between forces.

2.Multiple artilllery divisions will be a good idea, considering that each divisions contains only a few hundred guns. (It took scores of Bofors 155 mm guns during the eviction of a few hundred intruders in Kargil. I do not have the exact number.)

Artillery divisions are more than a simple assortment of guns...in our case, they are likely to be custodians of missile systems like Brahmos and Prahaar and long range rocket artillery. We can have more Artillery Divisions to beef up certain sectors for offensive operations - in addition, IMO, we can increase the number of Corps Artillery Brigades from one (present structure) to at least two. It can reinforce formations its sector through organic assets.

3. The difficulty with east-west connectivity on the Indian side, the relative geographical advantage on the Chinese side as well as the rapid infrastructure deveopment on the Chinese side would all call for a "rapid deployment" mountain (reserve) corps with helicopter assets dedicated to counter PRC mischief in any specific location on the border. Such forces could also be tasked with entering Bhutan should PRC try some mishcief via that route.

Correct. One of the reasons in my opinion the cost of raising new mountain strike corps is so high is that it may have factored into account organic helicopter assets of a scale not seen earlier.

[merlin]

Good information rohitvats. IMHO it would not be appropriate to say that IA has no plans for Bhutan. 27 MD will have Bhutan as part of its AOR.

[Singha]

the sole indian formation based adjacent with the bhutan border is the division at rangiya with their motor pool strung out at various places in the 40km from rangiya to guwahati.
I am not sure what is the extent of road communication through bhutan from the northern side...probably quite weak given the country is very sparsely populated.

a attack from the west near sikkim-bhutan-tibet looks more feasible, as also from the east near tawang to turn our flanks.
http://www.windhorsetours.com/bhutan/im ... ysical.jpg

my sole expedition to this land is a couple of trips to geylegphug from bongaigaon on indian side. there was a market for "imported" goods there like china made torches , blankets, tiger balm back in the days when such items were coveted in India.

[yantra]

Excellents posts Rohitvats. Thank you.

Have you considered Chinese air-offensive on our defensive positions as well? 9:1 is for a pure ground offensive by Chinese?

[jai]

http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2011/1 ... art-1.html

Cyclic had done a scenario/story of a Chinese attack through Bhutan earlier. Posting for those who missed it out/may be interested. It's a long 10 part piece, but interesting !

[nits]

whether current power failure of grids impact army radars also... ?

or all of them have dedicated power backup...?

[rohitvats]

http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2011/1 ... art-1.html

Cyclic had done a scenario/story of a Chinese attack through Bhutan earlier. Posting for those who missed it out/may be interested. It's a long 10 part piece, but interesting !

Jai, just glanced over it...it is phenomenal. This is going into my weekend reading list (need to think of an excuse for not going shopping with wife... )

Lemme see If I can post a gist of his writings along with couple of maps. Coming from ex-services guy makes it more special as he knows how things actually work on ground...something like the fictionalized account by PVNR.

[rohitvats]

the sole indian formation based adjacent with the bhutan border is the division at rangiya with their motor pool strung out at various places in the 40km from rangiya to Guwahati.<SNIP>

As I said earlier, eastern Bhutan is responsibility of IV Corps. The division you mention is 21 MD. 33 Corps has 27 MD sitting east of Siliguri Corridor and south of Indo-Bhutan border.

[merlin]

Eastern Bhutan is 4 corps. Western Bhutan is 33 corps. From it MD at Kalimpong is reposible for that AOR.

[Kakarat]

Armies of India, Russia to hold joint counter-terror exercise

Armies of India and Russia will hold their first joint counter-terrorism war games involving tanks and armoured fighting vehicles close to Moscow's boundary with China and Mongolia from August 7.
...

[ShauryaT]

http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2011/1 ... art-1.html

Cyclic had done a scenario/story of a Chinese attack through Bhutan earlier. Posting for those who missed it out/may be interested. It's a long 10 part piece, but interesting !

Thanks for sharing.

[rohitvats]

Do any of the abduls, maulanas or talibs here have a book which describes the battle of walong in 1962? I am specifically looking for map(s) which describe the sector, various features in the sector where battles happened and progress of the battle. I found one on the net but would need a better one. Can some gentle soul please scan the same and share?

While the battle at Namka Chu has been covered in juch detail (thanks to first hand account by Brig. Dalvi)...the battle of Walong (only other sector in NEFA which saw heavy fighting) seems to be the forgotten battle...which is tragic because not only did the IA fight very gallantly here...the leadership at Brigade level was good with experienced people at helm. Brig. Rawley even undertook offensive action to sieze initiative inspite of lacking in every sort of support equipment. All the four battalions fought gallantly and gave Chinese a very very tough time...the tragedy of 1962 is that the stigma of defeat at Tawang has eclipsed the fine performamce of men and their leaders in Ladakh and Walong.

I intend to render article each on Namka Chu and Walong using Google Earth/Wikimapia to highlight the battle setting and geographical constraints which IA faced. The description of these battles is text heavy and one can loose interest or not realize the gravity of challenge faced by IA if not supported by good maps. GE is a fantastic tool to understand the military geography if one can lay markers consistent with what actually happened.

While placing markers for Namka Chu battle, I was simply awed by the geographical setting and simultaneously saddened on realizing that this was the death trap which men of 7 Inf Bde fought for...one look at the area and a child would have known that it was indefensible. Will put up the maps and GE images plus the write up by hopefully next sunday.

[putnanja]

Jawan ends life, tension in Army’s Samba unit

Three months after a scuffle broke out between Army officers and jawans at Nyoma in Ladakh, there was yet another stand off on Wednesday between officers and jawans at a unit in border Samba district over alleged suicide by a soldier.

Identified as 30-year-old Swaran Arun V from Kerala’s capital Thiruvananthapuram, the deceased was posted with 16 Cavalry in Samba. The jawan, who was reportedly on guard duty along with another colleague on Wednesday morning, had earlier received a phone call at around 6.45 am.

Giving details, sources said after receiving the phone call, Swaran went to the guard room and shot himself dead with his INSAS rifle. Hearing the gunshot, other jawans rushed to the room and found his body lying in a pool of blood.

The death raised tempers at the unit as a number of jawans hailing from Thiruvananthapuram and other parts of Kerala held seniors responsible for the death. Pointing out that the deceased had been deployed on sentry duty despite his posting in the computer section, they accused the officers of ill treating the jawans.
...
...

[ramana]

Isn't the phone call significant? Maybe they sould find out who called and what was the message first.

[Anand K]

Local papers mention that nearly 2000 troops from the XVI Corps led by two Lft. Generals had to surround (about 800 soldiers of) the 16 Cavalry and extricate around thirty officers!

The papers also claim that the deceased had been harassed by an officer for a long time...

[wig]

Local papers mention that nearly 2000 troops from the XVI Corps led by two Lft. Generals had to surround (about 800 soldiers of) the 16 Cavalry and extricate around thirty officers!

The papers also claim that the deceased had been harassed by an officer for a long time...

^^^^ please provide links to local papers

[wig]

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2012 ... ues-64.asp

was reliably learnt immediately after the incident, other soldiers posted in the camp came out of their barracks and protested against their senior officers, who according to them were responsible for the death of their colleague, who had sought leave in view of some urgency at his home.
The soldiers even locked some of the army officers inside the office while some other officers locked themselves in the officers’ mess, unofficial sources claimed.
The matter was resolved after senior army officers negotiated with the protesting soldiers ensuring them that the matter would be enquired in depth.
Though army has ordered a court of inquiry to ascertain the reason behind the suicide, it denied the reports of any protest within the camp. “I am not aware about any such protest”, Defence PRO Jammu said.
Station House Officer (SHO) Samba Rajinder Khajuria said that the matter was being investigated. “As per preliminary investigation the deceased had returned after spending vacation in June this year and there is no possibility of conflict over leave issue,” he said.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/

Army soldier today ended his life by shooting himself with his service rifle, Insas, inside his unit at Samba this morning.

The Army jawan, Swaran Arun V, 30, son of Vishwa Mohan Pillay, a resident of Trivandrum, Kerala, received a telephone call, reportedly from his house at around 5.30 am while on guard duty.

After the duty, he went to the guard room and shot himself dead with his service weapon.

from tribune, jammu edition
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120809/j&k.htm

An Army jawan allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself with his service rifle in the Maheshpura area of Samba district today.

Samba SSP Israr Khan said Arun V Pillai, a resident of Trivandrum, used his INSAS rifle to end his life. “He had fired one shot beneath his chin, which pierced through his head. He died instantly,” said the SSP.

He said Pillai had received a phone call today morning after which he went to the guard room and shot himself dead.

Following the incident, other soldiers in the unit expressed their resentment, but soon realised that their colleague had committed suicide, said the SSP. The slain jawan was posted at 16 Cavalry Regiment in Samba.

http://www.kashmirtimes.com/newsdet.aspx?q=3041

However, reports said that soon after the death of jawan, his colleague gathered outside the barrack and staged noisy protest. They later gheaored the office of their seniors blaming them for not sanctioning leave as the deceased jawan was facing some domestic problem. The situation remained chaotic inside the unit due to sudden uprising by the jawans.

[rohitvats]

16 CAV is one of the illustrious units of the army...a very old regiment. As for the comment in newspaper that the said jawan was posted on guard duty while he was posted to computer section, it is very much a reflection of the changing profile of the army. Many of the soldiers, especially from South India (the chap was from Kerala) are well educated with good qualification at bachelors level. And these fellows qualify for specialist roles in communication, electronics etc. But at the same time, need to do everything a grunt needs to do...which given the qualification and education background is resented.

Case in point - father was posted to AMC Center and College and he had one Tamil boy in his training unit. A graduate, who given his qualification, was training to join directly as Hawaldar in Quarter Master's branch. The fellow underwent the ragda-patti of a recruit and was a lost soul and was even put up for disciplinary actions - Dad realized the fellow's potential and managed to get him to hold on. He mentored him on his passing out from the Center and after fulfilling the required criterion (years of service), the chap sat for examination to become an officer. And lo and behold, he passed the examination and interviews and became an officer in AMC.

He ended up QM of the Military Hospital in our home town and came down to invite Dad for the Raising Day celebrations. I met him and it was a wonderful experience.

[Anand K]

>>Re Wig

In malayalam onlee

[Anand K]

The 9 Sikhs were disbanded after the 1984 incident..... I wonder what will happen to units such as the 226 Field Artillery and now the 16 Cavalry which saw significant discipline breakdowns.
On that note, whatever happened to the 226 F.A.?

PS: In the olden days the Romans would execute the ringleaders of the mutiny. 1 in 10 of the followers would be selected by drawing straws and clubbed to death.... arms restrained a-la Thakur and heavy hammer blows dealt to the heart.

[Sachin]

Isn't the phone call significant? Maybe they sould find out who called and what was the message first

Guess the police would already be checking on this angle. And I am sure the family of the deceased jawan would also help. Perhaps some one at his home was terminally ill/sick, or a similar situation .

Pointing out that the deceased had been deployed on sentry duty despite his posting in the computer section, they accused the officers of ill treating the jawans.

I dont think this really can be a reason of a suicide, though the news report gives such an impression. As far as what I have seen in Army units, the regular jawan has to do the chores which gets assigned to a regular jawan in the unit. But people who are good at computers etc., if you ask me are ear-marked by the officers to help them out . So it is most likely that they would be kept away from other mundane duties. I have known a case when a Naik was brought back all the way from his unit in Assam, because his unit had its web site inauguration planned at the Regimental Centre. The officers (from an older generation) was not as tech-savvy as this fellow, and they insisted that this fellow needs to be there for the inauguration. He was again, a Mallu who had done a Diploma course in Computer programming.

But at the same time, need to do everything a grunt needs to do...which given the qualification and education background is resented

As mentioned above, generally I have seen that in infantry units where the maximum folks are NOT required to be technically qualified, Jawans who have skills in computers etc. do get treated a bit differently. Mainly because their technical skills would be of use to the officer group, where computerisation is becoming a de-facto standard.

I guess the problem arises when an officer treats say a well educated jawan, the same way he would treat an illiterate chap from a village. These folks by the virtue of their education may also have good knowledge on other things, and may slowly start disliking the over-lording culture. But I feel many officers would have the capability to understand such things and act accordingly.

In overall, I feel the mutinies/uprisings etc. have started increasing. Certainly it may not be alarming but I believe that IA senior officers are looking for patterns and take remedial measures.

PS: Slightly OT. I don't know about other Indian states. In Malayalam there has been a very good novels/short stories written by Malayali Army jawans. These stories most of them were showing the 1945 to 1970s time period. The authors were all NCOs (or max JCOs). Shows many of the not-so-much-reported politics, attitude problems, organisational problems in the Army (of those days). In one story penned by Nandanaar he brings in a character Potti (a Kerala Brahmin sur-name), who is over-qualified and reads up a lot about the changing world. Finally he is also dismissed the Army, after questioning some actions of the CO of the unit. Both part ways (Army and Potti) knowing that they are not fit for each other. Potti is sure to get a job else where, and Army off course can get another recruit.

[schowdhuri]

The problem is that the jawans profile is coming closer to officers profile, unlike earlier where there was a big gap. Taking the case of 16 light cav only (before moving to Samba they were in Sec, which is where I am, so I had some interaction) the jawans would question why they had to do BPET, when some 'fat' officers would not do it. This was quite unthinkable a decade+ back. On the other hand the CO himself would do BPET often, which is not very usual in Armoured Regts.

I find it difficult to believe that the CO just dissapeared. Also, 16 Cav does not have 30 officers (remember the officer shortage), so I wonder how 30 officers were extricated. Again, referring to 16 Cav itself (though it is also true in other regts) due to officer shortage, each officer handles many roles leading to much greater stress than acceptable.

[rohitvats]

^^^That 30 officer thing also caught my eye...there is a reason subalterns end up doing company commander level roles nowadays....for which at times they are not mature enough. As for the officer and jawan education background, you've hit the nail on the head. Another factor is the economic background of jawans...they come from decent families and you can see a young subaltern and a NCO driving the same make of the bike. So, there are societal changes being reflected in the army as well. And most of the officers I've spoken to, openly admit about it and the need to handle this sensitively. But army is army and the dice rolls both ways...as Ramsey said in Crimson Tide, "We are here to defend democracy, not practice it!". Things will not happen overnight. And everything cannot be questioned for the sake of it.

[pmund]

The demography is indeed changing in the Army. Earlier, u saw it mostly in the AF and to an extent in the Navy but now, there is a greater percentage of jawans with the same education level as officers. Navy and AF officers were more used to being talked back, now there are jawans talking back to officers, eye to eye, and in English. The top brass has to deal with these changes sensitively. There are a lot of 'traditions' that would raise eyebrows. Maybe it's time to take a relook at the unwritten rules. The Army will benefit from this.

[wig]

todays tribune continuation of the news
excerpts

The Army has ordered a Court of Inquiry (CoI) into the matter. A Brigadier from the Yol-based 9 corps has been tasked to probe the incident. The jawan had some issue back home in Kerala and had asked for leave, which was denied. Additional troops have been rushed to the area to prevent any further escalation.

and in parliament

The Prime Minister responded after CPM members referred to yesterday’s incident saying there was a breach of discipline in the military camp after a soldier committed suicide.

CPM leader Sitaram Yechury said, “It’s a serious matter. Let the Defence Minister respond.”

As AK Antony was not present, the PM responded by saying, “I request the House not to have a discussion on the subject...This is a very small incident, which is being blown out of proportion. It is not good for the morale of our armed forces.” The Opposition adhered to the request of the Prime Minister.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120810/main4.htm

[Anand K]

Picked up a tidbit in the local news channels/papers.......
The mother of the deceased Jawan accused that three commissioned officers picked on her son because he had applied for a few days to "attempt for officers test in NDA". Apparently these officers (who always looked down on jawans) were incensed that a lowly subaltern aspired for an officer rank.

PS: What test is this? Is there a way for jawans/JCOs/NCOs to get commissioned by finishing a bridge course or something?

[ramana]

It was always there. A non commissioned soldier can apply for OCS or NDA or IMA. Something is rotten if intimidation is going on.

[schowdhuri]

Picked up a tidbit in the local news channels/papers.......
The mother of the deceased Jawan accused that three commissioned officers picked on her son because he had applied for a few days to "attempt for officers test in NDA". Apparently these officers (who always looked down on jawans) were incensed that a lowly subaltern aspired for an officer rank.

PS: What test is this? Is there a way for jawans/JCOs/NCOs to get commissioned by finishing a bridge course or something?

If the local news is referring to the jawan as subaltern, than that local news is best avoided as a source of information.

[peter]

Unbelievable!
BEMLgate

[nelson]

Any soldier/airman/sailor can apply for any entry in the Commissioned service in Army, Navy or Airforce if he meets the requisite conditions including age and education. Then there is the ACC entry also to get to IMA. Units encourage men to prepare and appear for the examinations. Commanding Officers of such units whose men get selected for Commissioned service are appreciated and rewarded in the reporting system. The age limit for NDA at joining is 19, for IMA it is 23 and for OTA it is 25. For ACC entry it is 24 yrs.

Given the age of the deceased soldier, ie 26, the argument that he was harassed because he wanted to apply for NDA is false.

[pmund]

The charge of intimidation is absolutely false. NCOs are encouraged to try for the officer cadre and COs of such units get commended for it. There may be some ills in the Army but not institutionalized pettiness. Whenever there has been a shameful incident, it is because of an individual, not a systemic problem. There is no dearth of armchair critics who start badgering the forces whenever they get the slightest opportunity, and most unfortunate of all, much of it is picked up by the media.

[schowdhuri]

South Indian regiments have always been more difficult to handle. Not just being more educated, they are more aware of their rights, more likely to complain (not always without good reason), and more likely to feel aggrieved, and not very keen on work like sentry duty.

With 1/3rd the allocation of officers available, and then even more missing on courses etc, the much more career-focused officers of today, the steep promotion pyramid, I am actually surprised that there are so 'few' incidents.

We have all the ingredients ready for a tinderbox, and the govt as usual is sleeping.

[David Siegel]

BEML payments to UK Tatra Sipox for deal routed to Rishi’s Hong Kong firm
http://idrw.org/?p=13353#more-13353

Investigators are bewildered by the strange financial relations between Tatra Sipox UK, the British company that had been supplying Tatra trucks to BEML, and another company in Hong Kong controlled by the controversial NRI businessman Ravi Rishi.

The CBI is investigating irregularities in the purchase of all-terrain Tatra trucks by defence public sector unit BEML for the Indian military. Allegations of irregularities in the deal were sent to CBI for investigation by defence minister A K Antony earlier this year, but it hit headlines after former Army chief General V K Singh claimed that he was offered a bribe of Rs 14 crore to approve purchase of a new batch of Tatra trucks.

Rishi, who controls Tatra Sipox UK and is the prime accused in the CBI FIR into the Tatra scandal, recently moved the Supreme Court seeking permission to travel abroad. CBI has opposed the demand.

What brings a mysterious twist to the Tatra scandal is the relation between Tatra Sipox UK and Venus Projects Ltd of Hong Kong. Venus is controlled from the secretive tax haven ofLiechtenstein.

Investigators have been given details by banks and others concerned to establish that every time Tatra Sipox received a payment from BEML, the entire amount was immediately transferred to the account of Venus. In return, Venus gave Tatra Sipox just a 1% commission. “Tatra Sipox was just a transaction handling agency with no powers at all,” a source said.

To make the entire transaction easy, both Tatra Sipox and Venus had their bank accounts withCanara Bank in London, and operated them in euro currency. In fact, on February 6, 2007, BEML agreed, for strange reasons, to change the procurement currency from dollar to euro, which led to significant loses to BEML over the next few years. Once BEML issued payments in euro, there was no currency conversion costs on either Tatra Sipox UK or Venus Projects.

With the fresh revelations that Tatra Sipox did not even have the right to decide on the payments received from BEML, the attention should shift to Hong Kong-based Venus Projects. According to documents of Venus Projects wuntil 2011, all the shares of the company were held by Deswa Holding Establishment based in Liechtenstein.

By January 2012, Tatra Sipox was fully owned by Vectra Ltd, which in turn was also run by a trust in Liechtenstein.

BEML had signed a contract with Tatra Sipox in 1997 for a 10-year period for the supply of the all-terrain trucks and its parts. In 2003, four years before the contract expired, the PSU renewed its contract with Tatra Sipox to extend the “scope of working relationship”, according to the CBI FIR into the case.

BEML is believed to have told the defence ministry that it was entering into a contract with a fully-owned subsidiary of Tatra AS, the Czech manufacturer of the all-terrain trucks. However, CBI is now convinced that Tatra Sipox UK had nothing to do with the original equipment manufacturers.

And with the latest revelations of Venus Projects being the real ‘controlling authority’, the Tatra contract has assumed more complex hues. Tatra Sipox emerged on the scene after the collapse of Czechoslovakia into Czech Republic and Slovakia. The company was incorporated in UK in 1994.

[anand_sankar]

@pmund, well said!

It is a matter of pride for a unit when a soldier from the ranks makes it as an officer. Have myself personally seen COs and other officers coaching soldiers who want to take up the exams and the postal bachelor's degree. It is brownie points for the unit and the CO if a soldier makes it to officer grade, even though the soldier will never come back to the same regiment.

The Nyome incident and the current one, one needs to understand that these are forward postings and inherently more stressful. The demands on the officer and rank cadre are extreme. Stress can lead to a flashpoint. One need not read much into it.

[rohitvats]

@Nyoma incident, from what I have gathered, the soldier was guilty of misconduct (peeping) and was hauled by the officers. But what led to the situation exploding into what eventually when he was not shifted to the hospital. The latter was the resentment part. TFWIW.

[anand_sankar]

@Rohitvats

If what you are saying is true, it is definitely not right on the part of the officers to bash the soldier for peeping. There is enough in the Army Act to deal with the soldier's offence. So, the situation was first made tense (resentment comes here) by the unlawful physical assault by the officers and then flashpoint was not shifting him to a hospital.

This is where the CO comes in. He has not had the confidence and control over his officer cadre, and that has snowballed into the ranks.

[rohitvats]

@Rohitvats

If what you are saying is true, it is definitely not right on the part of the officers to bash the soldier for peeping. There is enough in the Army Act to deal with the soldier's offence. So, the situation was first made tense (resentment comes here) by the unlawful physical assault by the officers and then flashpoint was not shifting him to a hospital.This is where the CO comes in. He has not had the confidence and control over his officer cadre, and that has snowballed into the ranks.

I'm not commenting on the right or the wrong of it...as for the physical assault, well, things happen when tempers are high. This is what happened from what I know.Rest, army will do its own.

[Rahul M]

PS: What test is this? Is there a way for jawans/JCOs/NCOs to get commissioned by finishing a bridge course or something?

yes. army cadet college.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_College

[rohitvats]

^^^My father got commissioned as an Officer after joining the army in Ranks.