Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

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nelson
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by nelson »

Do you even realize the what that article paints IA as? It paints IA and its senior officer corps as people who cannot stand-up and say what is right and what is wrong for them but must rely on a newspaper to fight shadow wars. Why the fvck did IA not say so when the tank was being conceived? If 50T was such a sacrosanct number, why not include that in the GSQR and haul the DRDO over the coals when the Arjun turned out the way it did?
@Rohit

The IE article is dated 2010. The decision to not operationalise Arjun in particular sectors and role was taken in 2006-07, and IMO weight would have been one of the serious considerations then. The same has been communicated to DRDO, which is evident from their concurrence for the latest order for procurement of T-90. How do you blame IA for playing 'shadow war' on DRDO through press.

Again this brings us to the starting point, and I feel it is better to disengage.
rohitvats
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by rohitvats »

nelson wrote:^^My intention was not portray any one as a villain, but merely to bring out the diffidence in accepting some article and touting it as a canard. That is why i said, TIFWIW.
You do great injustice to the intellect and hard work of people on this forum by terming their acceptance of a particular POV as born out of diffidence.

People on this forum have made serious effort to read up on the subject of Arjun story...right from the first CAG Report which blasted the Arjun program literally calling it names (the discussion is still there in archives) to reading through every bit of a Parliamentary Standing Committee Report to DRDO Newsletter and what not. The opinions are based on facts as can be obtained from public source.

And mind you, you're not the only one with friends in Services...lot of people on this forum also do. Unlike you, people have gone out of their way to read up and ask questions...and then form opinions and not because 'he-said-so'.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by rohitvats »

nelson wrote:
Do you even realize the what that article paints IA as? It paints IA and its senior officer corps as people who cannot stand-up and say what is right and what is wrong for them but must rely on a newspaper to fight shadow wars. Why the fvck did IA not say so when the tank was being conceived? If 50T was such a sacrosanct number, why not include that in the GSQR and haul the DRDO over the coals when the Arjun turned out the way it did?
@Rohit

The IE article is dated 2010. The decision to not operationalise Arjun in particular sectors and role was taken in 2006-07, and IMO weight would have been one of the serious considerations then. The same has been communicated to DRDO, which is evident from their concurrence for the latest order for procurement of T-90. How do you blame IA for playing 'shadow war' on DRDO through press.

Again this brings us to the starting point, and I feel it is better to disengage.
And you're missing the point completely - Arjun was >50T the day it came out of the factory. Why did not army raise the red-flag then? Care to answer this one 'small' point?
nelson
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by nelson »

^^Again that was not my intention. Even though it would not mean anything to people who contribute here, I acknowledge their effort and knowledge of Indian defence as unparalleled in open domain.

However use of 'diffidence' was in reference to a particular word 'canard'. After considerable search there has been only one article which speaks IA version of the story in contrast to hundreds on the other side. And if that one article amounts to 'canard' i can't say anything further.
nelson
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by nelson »

And you're missing the point completely - Arjun was >50T the day it came out of the factory. Why did not army raise the red-flag then? Care to answer this one 'small' point?
@Rohit
Even though it is not in open domain, I believe that IA did raise the 'red flag' often times, on the weight issue. And the first time they did was the starting point of developing bridging systems of MLC 70.

I know it would be difficult to agree on this subject. At least, we should agree to disagree and move on. Thanks.
Khalsa
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Russian Army River Crossing Exercise in 2009
An assortment of assets crossing a large wide river at a rather mediumish depth.
Includes Bridge Crossing, Amphibious and underwater .

Equipment:
BTR-80
BMP
T-90 or 72

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpRiTRuwLWQ[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpRiTRuwLWQ
Khalsa
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Black Eagle ?
http://s54.radikal.ru/i145/1101/38/cd3d39ae3ab3.jpg

Does anyone know what the story was with Black Eagle in the end ? Why did the Russians kill it or go so quiet on it at the very end.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Khalsa
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Khalsa »

Whats being advertised here ?
A cheap upgrade ?????

http://vmestoslov.info/wp-content/uploa ... /oplot.jpg
Surya
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

Even though it is not in open domain, I believe that IA did raise the 'red flag' often times, on the weight issue. And the first time they did was the starting point of developing bridging systems of MLC 70.

Sorry that means didly squat. After the retarded statements from ex DGMF and other worthies - no one is going to believe that. after throwing sh1t at us(accusing us of not allowing dissent etc) for 3 pages you now want to back off and accept your non open sources and want us to accept all is well.

this is what happens when you copy and past from Janes and come up with requirements (multiple army folks of mentioned this including Kaul0. Essentially wasted the country's resources, demoralised the developers and made a laughing stock of themselves.

And then compared to making Arjun jump through hoops to fix niggling issues they looked the otherway when it acame to T 90.

At that point it crosses the line of being simple mistakes and becomes criminal.


PS: can some kind soul find that link regarding how forum discussions are manipulated. it would be very nice to follow this alongside thepoints mentioned in that
SaiK
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by SaiK »

Gurneesh
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Gurneesh »

Khalsa wrote:Whats being advertised here ?
A cheap upgrade ?????

http://vmestoslov.info/wp-content/uploa ... /oplot.jpg
That is T-84 Opolt from Ukraine and is based on T80UD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-84
Surya
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

i guess driving around in tin cans and getting your head banged about can cause serious problems

thats why sh1t like this happens

this crowd then starts copying and pasting from Janes and with the Leo 2 as their template. further fears as it looks like the M1 is coming to the subcontinent and tin cans are burning and turrets flying when they meet the Western tanks. So in phati mode more copy and paste.

M1 does not materialise so phati mode dialled down. now meanwhile we have set off a bunch of guys to sweat and develop a tank of world class level in a third world setup. no worries ample opportunities to knock it back.

as more tin cans are ordered, more stoopid becomes the justification including the DGMF rubbishing it as based on obsolete Leo 2s.

then as Arjun whips tin cans a$$ and public support in media appears - the nonsense called FMBT is manufactured and drones are sent in to talk about 50 tonnes and 10m bridges.

obviously during copy and paste - its hard to know what comes under 50 tonnes so poor guys cannot be blamed for not putting it on paper. but shhh they did mention it internally - adecade or 2 later - but so what. So next question - which tank is out there with features requested for under 50 tonnes. and if you want under 50 tonnes what features are you willing to lose??
ahh the drafting goes on - frantically praying Rodina comes up with something which can be used.

The saga continues
rohitvats
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Surya, The sad bit is that given the treatment of Arjun by the Indian Army, even other nations are making fun of it. Just use translate option on the gurkhan blog linked by Austin and see him making fun of the program. And pompously claiming that Indians should have asked for production line to be shifted from Russia. bench-od.
SaiK
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by SaiK »

Think about India joining NATO alliance [apolitically].. and M1s are the ones we are compared against.. ops in afghanistan or iraq is enough to begin. No other tank in the current gen is used in war other than the M1s. So, sadly.. will continue for ever. See.. you heard that we need to have "faith". The faith is easy to break.. but one can't really break real force. We shall see.. if we are successful in getting ahead with our end-game. I sincerely hope, that our equipments and armored divisions take part in front line defense against a force that has M1s [may be still tin-cans will win, since all this is only for number games and nothing realistic about war we are talking.. else, proving something should suffice one over the other].

Now, go an prove another thing... and show me you are capable, while I accumulate tin cans for another decade. come face-face when there is nothing exists in the funds to think about real war. Without protection and mobility the result is already written on our heads.

road and rail mobility is vital.. rather by air. air dropping is only for special ops.
Last edited by SaiK on 12 Aug 2012 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
Surya
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

thankfully i look at the pics and don't bother about the writing

helps with BP
member_23070
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by member_23070 »

This is my first post to the BR after lurking more than 5 years. Now in Army's inventory have about 124 Arjun MK-1 tanks. On seeing the reports Arjun is not part of the strike formation. Then what is the role for Arjun in Army? Is it just limited for defensive posture?

I am for Indigenous products, if Army not decided to field Arjun for strike formations then as per me we might not have went for MK-2 development.

Now again Army ordered 124 MK-2 tanks, whether the Army decided to where to field Arjuns?
SaiK
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by SaiK »

The argument about airdropping is stupid ddm paid by tin-can lobby.

Check out how the M1 63Tonner tank is delivered by C17s. That livefist is all wrong.



PS: well not just all wrong, but big time BS as well!



If the argument about Arjun vs tin-can is only by weight then IA is all heading in the wrong direction. IMHO.
Hobbes
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Hobbes »

SaiK wrote:The argument about airdropping is stupid ddm paid by tin-can lobby.

Check out how the M1 63Tonner tank is delivered by C17s. That livefist is all wrong.



PS: well not just all wrong, but big time BS as well!



If the argument about Arjun vs tin-can is only by weight then IA is all heading in the wrong direction. IMHO.
Another one bites the dust... :rotfl:

But then one does not expect better from Mr. Error - er.. Aroor, whose trademarks appear to be cheap sensationalism + shoddy journalism.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Surya wrote: PS: can some kind soul find that link regarding how forum discussions are manipulated. it would be very nice to follow this alongside thepoints mentioned in that
You mean this one by Jamwal:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3120
jamwal wrote:Cross posting:

Related to how online censorhip in forums works:
http://cryptome.org/2012/07/censored-slashdot-post.htm

Censored slashdot post

By: a guest on Jul 21st, 2012

Hi fellow slashdot readers-

Many slashdot readers have complained over the past few years that the Slashdot moderation system is broken. Now I think I know why. I've been a Slashdot participant since the 1990s, and used to have a low-numbered account. I don't like censorship. A lot. I was surprised and offended when I discovered active censorship happening right on slashdot. Read on for details.

A few days ago I tried to post an interesting story to Slashdot called "The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies". The article was written by an ex-COINTELPRO spy, and describes in explicit detail how agents control and manipulate Internet forums. So, I tried to post this story and discovered that each time I posted it some Slashdot editor would quickly (within 3 minutes) delete the story before it came to the atention of other editors or readers. Someone on the Slashdot editorial board does NOT want Slashdot readership to learn the techniques used to control an internet forum. Note that these techniques only work so long as the readership remains IGNORANT of how they work. A little forensic investigation by someone with DB access will even show which editor(s) repeatedly deleted this story on 18 July 2012. Honest editors are smart enough to figure out what to about COINTELPRO infiltrator editors. Given that I have a natural dislike of censorship, I'm trying a different tactic to expose my fellow Slashdot readers to this censored content.

Here's a challenge to my fellow geeks: Try to post the above story, "The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies" to Slashdot, or any other Internet forum of your choice. Here it is on pastebin

http://pastebin.com/wZEizYeY .


http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm



The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies


A sends:

The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)

http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5

1. COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum
2. Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
3. Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
4. How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)
5. Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
______________________________________________________________________________________


COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum..

There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'

Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'

If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum - it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a 'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then 'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.

Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'

A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at http://www.abovetopsecret.com) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence' or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION'

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'

Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.

Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'

It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes.

CONCLUSION

Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Once they are aware of these techniques the operation can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and control it is imperative to share then with HQ.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or conspiracy to cover up.

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not reported, it didn't happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the 'How dare you!' gambit.

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a 'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis in fact.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the 'high road' and 'confess' with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, 'just isn't so.' Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later, and even publicly 'call for an end to the nonsense' because you have already 'done the right thing.' Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for 'coming clean' and 'owning up' to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.

12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to lose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations -- as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed and unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed. Usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim.

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.

23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by destroying them financially, emotionally, or severely damaging their health.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist

1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.

2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentator become argumentative with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.

3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.

4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.

5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG focusing on conspiracies? One might think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain.Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do.

6) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of 'artificial' emotionalism and an unusually thick skin -- an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial.

Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble maintaining the 'image' and are hot and cold with respect to pretended emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style. It's just a job, and they often seem unable to 'act their role in character' as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo.

With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth, or simply give up.

7) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they really root for the side of truth deep within.

I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one such player claimed to be a Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who don't have a college degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.

8) Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation:

a) ANY NG posting by a targeted proponent for truth can result in an IMMEDIATE response. The government and other empowered players can afford to pay people to sit there and watch for an opportunity to do some damage. SINCE DISINFO IN A NG ONLY WORKS IF THE READER SEES IT - FAST RESPONSE IS CALLED FOR, or the visitor may be swayed towards truth.

b) When dealing in more direct ways with a disinformationalist, such as email, DELAY IS CALLED FOR - there will usually be a minimum of a 48-72 hour delay. This allows a sit-down team discussion on response strategy for best effect, and even enough time to 'get permission' or instruction from a formal chain of command.

c) In the NG example 1) above, it will often ALSO be seen that bigger guns are drawn and fired after the same 48-72 hours delay - the team approach in play. This is especially true when the targeted truth seeker or their comments are considered more important with respect to potential to reveal truth. Thus, a serious truth sayer will be attacked twice for the same sin.

______________________________________________________________________________________

How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)

One way to neutralize a potential activist is to get them to be in a group that does all the wrong things. Why?

1) The message doesn't get out.
2) A lot of time is wasted
3) The activist is frustrated and discouraged
4) Nothing good is accomplished.

FBI and Police Informers and Infiltrators will infest any group and they have phoney activist organizations established.

Their purpose is to prevent any real movement for justice or eco-peace from developing in this country.

Agents come in small, medium or large. They can be of any ethnic background. They can be male or female.

The actual size of the group or movement being infiltrated is irrelevant. It is the potential the movement has for becoming large which brings on the spies and saboteurs.

This booklet lists tactics agents use to slow things down, foul things up, destroy the movement and keep tabs on activists.

It is the agent's job to keep the activist from quitting such a group, thus keeping him/her under control.

In some situations, to get control, the agent will tell the activist:

"You're dividing the movement."

[Here, I have added the psychological reasons as to WHY this maneuver works to control people]

This invites guilty feelings. Many people can be controlled by guilt. The agents begin relationships with activists behind a well-developed mask of "dedication to the cause." Because of their often declared dedication, (and actions designed to prove this), when they criticize the activist, he or she - being truly dedicated to the movement - becomes convinced that somehow, any issues are THEIR fault. This is because a truly dedicated person tends to believe that everyone has a conscience and that nobody would dissimulate and lie like that "on purpose." It's amazing how far agents can go in manipulating an activist because the activist will constantly make excuses for the agent who regularly declares their dedication to the cause. Even if they do, occasionally, suspect the agent, they will pull the wool over their own eyes by rationalizing: "they did that unconsciously... they didn't really mean it... I can help them by being forgiving and accepting " and so on and so forth.

The agent will tell the activist:

"You're a leader!"

This is designed to enhance the activist's self-esteem. His or her narcissistic admiration of his/her own activist/altruistic intentions increase as he or she identifies with and consciously admires the altruistic declarations of the agent which are deliberately set up to mirror those of the activist.

This is "malignant pseudoidentification." It is the process by which the agent consciously imitates or simulates a certain behavior to foster the activist's identification with him/her, thus increasing the activist's vulnerability to exploitation. The agent will simulate the more subtle self-concepts of the activist.

Activists and those who have altruistic self-concepts are most vulnerable to malignant pseudoidentification especially during work with the agent when the interaction includes matter relating to their competency, autonomy, or knowledge.

The goal of the agent is to increase the activist's general empathy for the agent through pseudo-identification with the activist's self-concepts.

The most common example of this is the agent who will compliment the activist for his competency or knowledge or value to the movement. On a more subtle level, the agent will simulate affects and mannerisms of the activist which promotes identification via mirroring and feelings of "twinship". It is not unheard of for activists, enamored by the perceived helpfulness and competence of a good agent, to find themselves considering ethical violations and perhaps, even illegal behavior, in the service of their agent/handler.

The activist's "felt quality of perfection" [self-concept] is enhanced, and a strong empathic bond is developed with the agent through his/her imitation and simulation of the victim's own narcissistic investments. [self-concepts] That is, if the activist knows, deep inside, their own dedication to the cause, they will project that onto the agent who is "mirroring" them.

The activist will be deluded into thinking that the agent shares this feeling of identification and bonding. In an activist/social movement setting, the adversarial roles that activists naturally play vis a vis the establishment/government, fosters ongoing processes of intrapsychic splitting so that "twinship alliances" between activist and agent may render whole sectors or reality testing unavailable to the activist. They literally "lose touch with reality."

Activists who deny their own narcissistic investments [do not have a good idea of their own self-concepts and that they ARE concepts] and consciously perceive themselves (accurately, as it were) to be "helpers" endowed with a special amount of altruism are exceedingly vulnerable to the affective (emotional) simulation of the accomplished agent.

Empathy is fostered in the activist through the expression of quite visible affects. The presentation of tearfulness, sadness, longing, fear, remorse, and guilt, may induce in the helper-oriented activist a strong sense of compassion, while unconsciously enhancing the activist's narcissistic investment in self as the embodiment of goodness.

The agent's expresssion of such simulated affects may be quite compelling to the observer and difficult to distinguish from deep emotion.

It can usually be identified by two events, however:

First, the activist who has analyzed his/her own narcissistic roots and is aware of his/her own potential for being "emotionally hooked," will be able to remain cool and unaffected by such emotional outpourings by the agent.

As a result of this unaffected, cool, attitude, the Second event will occur: The agent will recompensate much too quickly following such an affective expression leaving the activist with the impression that "the play has ended, the curtain has fallen," and the imposture, for the moment, has finished. The agent will then move quickly to another activist/victim.

The fact is, the movement doesn't need leaders, it needs MOVERS. "Follow the leader" is a waste of time.

A good agent will want to meet as often as possible. He or she will talk a lot and say little. One can expect an onslaught of long, unresolved discussions.

Some agents take on a pushy, arrogant, or defensive manner:

1) To disrupt the agenda
2) To side-track the discussion
3) To interrupt repeatedly
4) To feign ignorance
5) To make an unfounded accusation against a person.

Calling someone a racist, for example. This tactic is used to discredit a person in the eyes of all other group members.

Saboteurs

Some saboteurs pretend to be activists. She or he will ....

1) Write encyclopedic flyers (in the present day, websites)
2) Print flyers in English only.
3) Have demonstrations in places where no one cares.
4) Solicit funding from rich people instead of grass roots support
5) Display banners with too many words that are confusing.
6) Confuse issues.
7) Make the wrong demands.
Cool Compromise the goal.
9) Have endless discussions that waste everyone's time. The agent may accompany the endless discussions with drinking, pot smoking or other amusement to slow down the activist's work.

Provocateurs

1) Want to establish "leaders" to set them up for a fall in order to stop the movement.
2) Suggest doing foolish, illegal things to get the activists in trouble.
3) Encourage militancy.
4) Want to taunt the authorities.
5) Attempt to make the activist compromise their values.
6) Attempt to instigate violence. Activisim ought to always be non-violent.
7) Attempt to provoke revolt among people who are ill-prepared to deal with the reaction of the authorities to such violence.

Informants

1) Want everyone to sign up and sing in and sign everything.
2) Ask a lot of questions (gathering data).
3) Want to know what events the activist is planning to attend.
4) Attempt to make the activist defend him or herself to identify his or her beliefs, goals, and level of committment.

Recruiting

Legitimate activists do not subject people to hours of persuasive dialog. Their actions, beliefs, and goals speak for themselves.

Groups that DO recruit are missionaries, military, and fake political parties or movements set up by agents.

Surveillance

ALWAYS assume that you are under surveillance.

At this point, if you are NOT under surveillance, you are not a very good activist!

Scare Tactics

They use them.

Such tactics include slander, defamation, threats, getting close to disaffected or minimally committed fellow activists to persuade them (via psychological tactics described above) to turn against the movement and give false testimony against their former compatriots. They will plant illegal substances on the activist and set up an arrest; they will plant false information and set up "exposure," they will send incriminating letters [emails] in the name of the activist; and more; they will do whatever society will allow.

This booklet in no way covers all the ways agents use to sabotage the lives of sincere an dedicated activists.

If an agent is "exposed," he or she will be transferred or replaced.

COINTELPRO is still in operation today under a different code name. It is no longer placed on paper where it can be discovered through the freedom of information act.

The FBI counterintelligence program's stated purpose: To expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, and otherwise neutralize individuals who the FBI categorize as opposed to the National Interests. "National Security" means the FBI's security from the people ever finding out the vicious things it does in violation of people's civil liberties.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Strong, credible allegations of high-level criminal activity can bring down a government. When the government lacks an effective, fact-based defense, other techniques must be employed. The success of these techniques depends heavily upon a cooperative, compliant press and a mere token opposition party.

1. Dummy up. If it's not reported, if it's not news, it didn't happen.

2. Wax indignant. This is also known as the "How dare you?" gambit.

3. Characterize the charges as "rumors" or, better yet, "wild rumors." If, in spite of the news blackout, the public is still able to learn about the suspicious facts, it can only be through "rumors." (If they tend to believe the "rumors" it must be because they are simply "paranoid" or "hysterical.")

4. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.

5. Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nutcase," "ranter," "kook," "crackpot," and, of course, "rumor monger." Be sure, too, to use heavily loaded verbs and adjectives when characterizing their charges and defending the "more reasonable" government and its defenders. You must then carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus maligned. For insurance, set up your own "skeptics" to shoot down.

6. Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money (compared to over-compensated adherents to the government line who, presumably, are not).

7. Invoke authority. Here the controlled press and the sham opposition can be very useful.

8. Dismiss the charges as "old news."

9. Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or "taking the limited hangout route." This way, you create the impression of candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless, less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken. With effective damage control, the fall-back position need only be peddled by stooge skeptics to carefully limited markets.

10. Characterize the crimes as impossibly complex and the truth as ultimately unknowable.

11. Reason backward, using the deductive method with a vengeance. With thoroughly rigorous deduction, troublesome evidence is irrelevant. E.g. We have a completely free press. If evidence exists that the Vince Foster "suicide" note was forged, they would have reported it. They haven't reported it so there is no such evidence. Another variation on this theme involves the likelihood of a conspiracy leaker and a press who would report the leak.

12. Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely. E.g. If Foster was murdered, who did it and why?

13. Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or publicizing distractions.

14. Lightly report incriminating facts, and then make nothing of them. This is sometimes referred to as "bump and run" reporting.

15. Baldly and brazenly lie. A favorite way of doing this is to attribute the "facts" furnished the public to a plausible-sounding, but anonymous, source.

16. Expanding further on numbers 4 and 5, have your own stooges "expose" scandals and champion popular causes. Their job is to pre-empt real opponents and to play 99-yard football. A variation is to pay rich people for the job who will pretend to spend their own money.

17. Flood the Internet with agents. This is the answer to the question, "What could possibly motivate a person to spend hour upon hour on Internet news groups defending the government and/or the press and harassing genuine critics?" Don t the authorities have defenders enough in all the newspapers, magazines, radio, and television? One would think refusing to print critical letters and screening out serious callers or dumping them from radio talk shows would be control enough, but, obviously, it is not.
member_22539
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by member_22539 »

^^Interesting read. I do sometimes wonder how some posters are fighting off multiple opposing posters single-handedly (more or less) and going against the general consensus. I mean, how do they have the time for this. They vomit one post after the other non-stop. I'm practically glued to my computer most of the day for work and I can look up any website if I please, but I still don't have that kind of time. So one wonders if one is facing a real professional.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Surya »

unless arun meant professional forum disruptor -

Thank you manish

yess

this time I will save it
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Kanson »

rohitvats wrote: - Purchase of T-80UD gave the army an opening - especially those who were wedded to the eastern way of tank design. This east versus west current in the army is mentioned as such by former COAS General SR Chowdhury in his autobiography. Senior officers were openly questioning the rationale for a 'Western' design tank. This actually goes to show the fickle minded approach to product and capability development - as if an MBT can be made overnight.

- Nothing is more indicative of Army's desire for T-90 induction as Indian Army giving A-OK to the tank by conducting trials in SIBERIA. It was the Price Negotiating Committee which asked IA to conduct trials in India - where T-90 actually had number of issues.

- By 2006 when Arjun truly came of age, IA had already got the T-90 into the system in substantial numbers. And then Russians through their shenanigans (of withholding the ToT for T-90) ensured that IA would place a follow-order for T-90 directly from Russian. This led to T-90 becoming more entrenched in the system.

- I will go out on a limb here and say that financial consideration (arm lobbies and agents and IA officers and babus/netas combine) ensured that more follow-on orders for T-90 are given by MOD.

But, am yet to hear a single, honest admission of screw-up by the army from anyone in the OG. It has always been something wrong with Arjun delaying the induction.
For a sec I was stunned when nelson made it that IA Chief indeed apologized for Arjun drama. We won't be hearing any admission of screw-up becoz it is not a screw-up but a planned heist brought upon this nation as BEML TATRA is.
---------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to be politically correct here! There are documents in public domain to support all my claims here! For the new members who joined recently,

Even before the first lot of T-90's complete induction, Arjun fate was sealed. It was during the period of Gen Vij, the one who returned his apartment after Adarsh Scam became public.

IA tried every trick in the book to postpone Arjun induction. It was reported by many and documented by Frontier India and Broadsword(Ajai Shukla).

Only after all T-90 orders( i.e. the last 1000) were completely sealed, IA allowed for holding comparative trials between Arjun and T-90s which drdo was asking for a long time. Even there, it took DRDO to exert so much pressure for holding this trial. IA(top brass) was not at all enthusiastic.

T-90 which entered our system something as a stop gap, was made as MBT. What an irony!

It will be fascinating to recall and read the tricks played by IA. For any faults in trials, Arjun has to prove them once again in Summer and Winter trials whereas T-90 got inducted in no time. For every fault even it is a very minor one, Arjun has to wait for next summer or winter, and that will delay any induction by 6 months. Like that few summers and winters went. At one time during the trials, Renk system was sabotaged. Purpose is to delay the induction. When there are no faults to raise, IA then came up with a new fording requirement for Ajun. T-72 which is the main stay of IA don't have such fording requirement. Again there was a delay. And the story goes. Such is the Arjun saga.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by SaiK »

Very clearly from DDM to firang lobbyists.. the attitude of aam desis are chalta hai.. who cares about what IA buys etc. This is BS. Even if one honest citizen questions the move, these deals must be put on CAG table, or even on MMS plate every time he eats dinner. Remind him, aams can't knowingly accept topnotch kalmadi-lets to run the country the way they want.

At any chance, we can prove, we can do it all homegrown, we must use them, even if it needs operational strategic change. Requirements can't ignore operational, and tactical requirements.. risk management is all about finding loopholes in the requirements.

Okay, 20 years Arjun took time to bite every IA existing tank to dust.. now it is done it.. and it took 20 years for IA to come out and crap that it is overweight? Even a born baby would say, mom I can lift only this much, or I shall cry.

Basic fundamental BS... the weight logic will never ever take off.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Misraji »

One of the few times where I would like to say to IA/DGMF,

"Fvck it, make it work".
If you can't, move aside.
There are other talented people who will.

--Ashish
Philip
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Philip »

When examining the past,one must in all honesty also remember that when Pak acquired the T-80UD ,there was no western bonhomie towards India in supplying arms,esp. from the US! What were our options also even if available? Hugely expensive western MBTs when compared with a far cheaper T-90,a follow-on design to the T-72 in service from a time-trusted supplier.One must never forget the sanctions that were imposed upon India by the US in the aftermath of P-2.Therefore,our "knee-jerk" reaction of T-90s to Pak's clever acquisition cannot be faulted.Unfortunately,Arjun has come of age too late.No disrespect to the tank,but why a Mk-2 if Mk-1 was perfect? Incremental improvements are the norm in any system .

However,going by the veteran experts in the TV debate,we do have a very varied terrain and Arjun can certainly be used/employed with discretion where the terrain suits it best.No harm in manufacturing another few hundred or so ,at least the 500 figure that the DRDO says which will make it break even financially and have enough numbers in service to enable the logistic chain to also function smoothly.One can certainly reduce by a few hundred in number T-90 local production which is planned for the future and not yet in the pipeline
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Hobbes »

While "nelson" pretty much appears to be trolling, I believe it is important to provide reasonable answers where possible to his statements, for the record.

With reference to his statement that the Arjun's broader tracks make it more mine damage prone, I believe there are two principal kinds of buried anti tank mines: pattern and scatterable. Pattern mines are laid according to a fixed-space pattern, to help reinforce natural obstacles where possible. The other kind are scatterable mines, which are laid by ground based minelayer verhicles, dropped from the air or even scattered from missiles. These mines are randomly distributed. (Experts please confirm).

With that being the case, the Arjun's marginally broader tracks should not be any more of an issue where scattered mines are used than the tin can's, since the scatter pattern is random. Where the mines are laid to a fixed pattern, typically by hand or so I've read, will the 3 inches of incremental track width render the Arjun more susceptible to encountering a mine? The answer depends I guess on the pattern and spacing. If the pattern is a regular square grid, the distance between columns of mines could be significant. If however the grid is angular or the pattern is arrow-shaped (does this happen?) the tin can's narrower tracks confer it no advantage whatsoever. While I'm no armour expert or military tactician, the skewed (angular) grid would seem to (my very limited understanding) be the way to go since that would be a sure shot way of sensing pretty much any tracked or wheeled vehicle transiting over the minefield. Finally, will the Arjun's lower ground pressure give it any kind of advantage in a minefield over the T-XX?

Could the cognoscenti clarify?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by niran »

^^^^
modern anti tank mines/anti personal mines/anti whatever mines(if you can call designs from 3 decades ago modern that is) uses vibrations from
whatever it is supposed to blowup to blowup.(of course).
meaning, suppose an anti tank mine lies buried on the north east corner of that Mango tree it will not go off when kids are jumping around lusting for them ripe mango, it will not go of even if nano ram brings his thela(cart) to collect them mangoes even if his thela is parked right over the anti tank mine
but if an armored vehicle(inclusive battle tanks) passes near the mines(mark the word "NEAR" it is not "Over the mine) the sensors present in the mines detects
the vibrations and par the figures with data it have and (Mahadev forbids) a match is found, it goes off.
so wide tract(as in the hinds of Serena) or narrow tracts(as in hinds of Maria ) does not count.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by nelson »

Yes such mines do exist. They are activated on principles of seismic or magnetic signatures of AFVs. However what an adversary can lay, during hostilities, is what he holds or is likely to hold in his inventory, not from the catalogs of modern mines.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by Anujan »

So what would you risk? 3 less inches but with higher ground pressure over pressure activated mines and a danger of turret blowing off and cooking everyone inside or 3 more inches with lower ground pressure and better crew protection?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by niran »

nelson wrote:Yes such mines do exist. They are activated on principles of seismic or magnetic signatures of AFVs. However what an adversary can lay, during hostilities, is what he holds or is likely to hold in his inventory, not from the catalogs of modern mines.
the adversary Arjun's and Bheshma is ever going to face are TFTA and Chinese and both have had modern mines since decades ago the one you are alluding to
even the lowly Karen's God Army does not have, let alone TFTAs so stop justifying this hogwash.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by nelson »

^^
In the same post, it was brought out that increased weight in Mk-II has been circumvented ingenuously. I compliment the ingenuity. At the same time it has minor drawbacks pointed out.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by amit »

I'm trying to understand the logic/justification being posted here on behalf of the Army.

If the principal problem that the Army had with respect to the Arjun MK1 was weight then isn't it strange that the "improvements" they demanded with respect to increased "protection" resulted in the weight going up even further in MK2?

The fact remains that after much toil and effort we've got a home grown world class piece of military hardware and instead of promoting it the Army is hell bent on promoting the Russian hardware which was made for Russian conditions.

Sorry to have to say this but if this had been a political party one could have easily concluded that there's a huge scam behind all the brouhaha being paraded by the Army.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by amit »

Philip wrote:When examining the past,one must in all honesty also remember that when Pak acquired the T-80UD ,there was no western bonhomie towards India in supplying arms,esp. from the US! What were our options also even if available? Hugely expensive western MBTs when compared with a far cheaper T-90,a follow-on design to the T-72 in service from a time-trusted supplier.One must never forget the sanctions that were imposed upon India by the US in the aftermath of P-2.Therefore,our "knee-jerk" reaction of T-90s to Pak's clever acquisition cannot be faulted.Unfortunately,Arjun has come of age too late.No disrespect to the tank,but why a Mk-2 if Mk-1 was perfect? Incremental improvements are the norm in any system .

However,going by the veteran experts in the TV debate,we do have a very varied terrain and Arjun can certainly be used/employed with discretion where the terrain suits it best.No harm in manufacturing another few hundred or so ,at least the 500 figure that the DRDO says which will make it break even financially and have enough numbers in service to enable the logistic chain to also function smoothly.One can certainly reduce by a few hundred in number T-90 local production which is planned for the future and not yet in the pipeline
Philip,

I do hope you realise how the bolded portion of your post sounds like?

Let me tell you: These bloody natives (replace with DRDO) are such damn nuisance, they just don't their place and shut up (replace with junking the Arjun programme). They are making too much of a bloody racket give them some tidbits, that'll calm them down. Buy a few of their stupid tanks and use them for parades, that'll make them happy. Where's the bloody vodka, Natasha can you get me a glass...

And so the Army buys 500 and then the programme on which two generations of folks in DRDO devoted their entire careers on breaks even? What then? Every body goes back home happy? Or better still they could move on in life and start making Lada cars?

What happens to the skills learnt? The technologies developed? All of that would just be frittered away just as it happened in the submarine building programme?

And then when it comes to the FMBT or whatever tank we need in 2020s we then again start to get excited by brochures written in Russian and then the cycle continues.

One further point: Sure the Russians sold us arms when the West wouldn't. However, I don't see why we need to be eternally grateful for that? Right after the Soviet Union broke up, Indian dollars ensured that the Russian MIL didn't disintegrate completely. Even today their fifth generation plane is being partly bankrolled by India. So it's a mutual relationship. However, what you're implying is that we need to stymie our domestic efforts in order to keep the Bear happy? Why so?

Ultimately our aim should be to home build the majority of our requirements, don't you agree? How long are we supposed to be eternally grateful?
Last edited by amit on 13 Aug 2012 11:01, edited 1 time in total.
member_22539
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by member_22539 »

Misraji wrote:One of the few times where I would like to say to IA/DGMF,

"Fvck it, make it work".
If you can't, move aside.
There are other talented people who will.

--Ashish
Thats exactly what I meant :D
amit
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by amit »

^^^^^

+ 100

I think it's time to ask hard questions. Things have gone from the sublime (remember the "dhaba" comment) to the ridiculous.
srai
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by srai »

From all the debate, it sounds like the IA needs 3 different MBT designs to satisfy its varied requirements for an FMBT:
  1. Airliftable/Mountainous terrain -> Light tanks (< 50t) new type
  2. Punjab Plains/Urban -> Medium tanks (50t) i.e. T72/T90
  3. Deserts -> Heavy tanks (> 50t) i.e. Arjun Mk.1/2
And there is an amphibious requirement as well.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by ravar »

This is the email id of RM, Shri. A.K. Antony- ak.antony@sansad.nic.in

Sounds naive but if we can get adequate numbers to respond to, it might help. Also, exposure using contacts in media.

How much can RTI be of help since this is a defence matter?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Post by prabhug »

srai why do u think medium tanks do well in punjab plains???
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