Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[svinayak]

Good analysis of the movie. Rajesh ji , I want this analysis of the movie also part of your article. We need to connect the AIT with current topics of the western art and humanities so that younger Indians can see for themselves how Indian ideas are being used in the west by them

[A_Gupta]

The fact that Krishna was dark has many corroborative bits of evidence. The word Krishna is used synonymous with "dark" in Sanskrit. But he was born in Dwaraka no?

No, Krishna was born in Mathura.

[svinayak]

They feel that they have created this Aryanism and now they want to merge with the Chrisitan world view which is 90% of the christian world to this. This will create a supieror race and the chosen one elite order which can rule for eternity.

Post chritian world can be only Aruyanism and Christiaism will be well hidden.
Currently the christianism is hidden in the modernism, media and education system.

[svinayak]

BTW for a company product launch I got a free movie preview of this movie before the general public launch. Same with Dark Night movie.

[RamaY]

Rama was a Dravidian and so was Krishna. Interestingly the sons of Indra (who ruled Amaravati - currently in Andhra Pradesh), Arjuna and Kakasura, both were dark skinned.

Rama and Krishna may have been dark skinned but calling them Dravidian means that you believe that dark skin=Dravidian, light skin=Aryan. Apart from AIT Nazis and racists do you have any evidence for this?

The fact that Krishna was dark has many corroborative bits of evidence. The word Krishna is used synonymous with "dark" in Sanskrit. But he was born in Dwaraka no?

My bad, I shouldn't have used that D word in this thread.

I was trying to point few things
- Entire Jambudweepa (one interpretation is Asian continent, another interpretation planet Earth) is one race - The Vedics or Dravidians if you prefer.
- The Arya word in our scripts refers to civility in terms of their Dharmic world view and acceptance of Vedic-standard (Advaita bhavana), Not a race. People who accepted Vedic standard and Varna-Ashrama Dharma are Aryaas. A corollary would be that anyone wanting to be Arya should accept the Vedic standard and Advaita Bhavana. No dualistic monotheistic mumbo jumbo.
- The origins of Rama are in present day Krishna/Godavari/Cauveri area
- Krishna is a descendant of Rama (~7 generations apart per Ancient Indians blog).
- If people bring the Indra being the vedic god and not Rama/Krishna and Indra could be a fair skinned (ariyyan god) - His sons Arjuna and Kakasura both were dark skinned.
- Indra's capital is Amaravati (later capital of Satavahans) is in current Andhra Pradesh
- Ancient Indians Blog presents the analysis that most of early Vishnu incarnations happened in Dakshnapatha and
- The Ksheera Sagara Mantha is said to have happened in Antarvedi in coastal Andhra Pradesh
- The deluge during Manu's time made them travel north thru sea to up-river Ganga bringing them to Ayodhya
- Their theory is that some of the seers stayed back during the deluge moving up into local hills/mountains.

[shiv]

The fact that Krishna was dark has many corroborative bits of evidence. The word Krishna is used synonymous with "dark" in Sanskrit. But he was born in Dwaraka no?

No, Krishna was born in Mathura.

Thanks. North India. Our minds have been conditioned to internalize the AIT because all our knowledge comes from English and Sanskrit is Greek to us (with apologies to Talageri)

[vic]

Let's look at a (naive?) example! Lot of Central Asian girls are in Delhi for sex trade. Now had it Been olden (no birth control) days, we would have hundreds of fair skinned Aryans running around. My theory is that Indian Civilizational values moved out and lot of fair skinned (then backward) social groups came to India and were absorbed in. Vedic culture may just be natural collolary of decaying Indus Civilization which morphed with time & climate.

[SaiK]

some one said in GDF>link language thread, sanskrit is unknown because it relates to brahminism. so, how do we de-link this?

[SaiK]

The skin based color argument to migration theory is already disproved as wrong. Why is that we keep coming back at it again and again. It requires greater than 20K years of being in the same climate to change the skin pigments to reflect drastically different. .. what we are talking is a period within about 10K years span. Or, did I miss the bus on a new color theory that was posted/linked or in the news?

[member_20317]

Arre Kya black/white yaar. And will this thread never get archived. 60-70 pages was usually where mods used to change to a fresh start.


Taking off on Ursa Major (Vashishta-Arundhati) and the n-body thingie.

The long distances in the observation take out the retrograde motion reverse calculations problem. Apparent Retrograde motion is a near Earth object syndrome. In fact the retrograde motion is to be observed against the supposedly stationery star map. One less problem there.

But what I was really worried about was another possible stand that could have been taken by the AMT Nazis. That the ancient star map cannot be relied upon because of the uncertainty that the n-body problem brings in. In fact Brihaspati ji actually alluded to this line of attack, elsewhere. For the observation to be a valid one we need to take care of this too.

The uncertainty attack can only be brought in following two circumstances (unless I am missing something):

1) We (Solar system) have been through some upheaval – good thing here is that the Vashishta-Arundhati combination are so bloody close that the only way for our upheaval to affect the observation is when our upheaval is an almost impossibly big one.

2) The Ursa major system underwent some upheaval due to some exceptional gravitational effect – In this regard kindly note the following :

(a) Ursa Major is actually Ursa Major Moving Group (hereinafter ‘UMMG’), suggesting that stars in UMMG form a loose system (16 to 30 light years across) ie. either these stars have some residual gravitational effect on each other over or none over and above the background gravitational effect of the Akash Ganga Galaxy. This is good for us because that effectively takes out any hope of any extraordinary effect being exerted by other nearby star clusters on this moving group. Thus making the UMMG system a special one in its own right for our purpose. Classification as a ‘Moving Group/Cluster’ or a ‘Stellar Association’ which is basically the fag end of an ‘Open Cluster’ of stars also implies that most stars in the moving group are not affecting each other in any extraordinary manner. Open clusters imply that the gravitational effect is rather loose say compared to the next worst thing (in our case next best thing) the ‘Globular Clusters’. While Open clusters last for a few million years the Globular clusters last for many a billion years.

(b) OTOH if the stars within the UMMG system are too close together they could affect the motion of the Vashishta-Arundhati combination. Well fortune favoured us here too. Observe :
(i) Vashishta-Arundhati were reported to be most likely a binary system of binary system themselves. What does that mean? Well it means the 4 stars of Vashishta combination are gravitationally bound together in a binary (rather a multinary ) AND the 2 stars of Arundhati combination are also a binary AND with both the Vashishta system and the Arundhati system are gravitationally bound to each other at a distance of probably 1-3 light years (there, Indics were the first to discover the Binary combination in the sky ); AND
(ii) Note that a Moving Association is actually implying that that system is almost over or already over in terms of even its Cluster life. So how is that important?

Well this means that the Moving Group or Moving cluster architecture takes away the possibility of the UMMC star cluster itself putting an inordinately big effect on the EXTRAORDINARILY STRONG GRAVITATIONAL FORCE WITHIN THE VASHISHTA-ARUNDHATI COMBINATION. Open Clusters sport condition where “the escape velocity of the system is lower than the average velocity of the constituent stars”.


Again coincidently UMMG is the nearest star cluster to our solar system ie. there is little in between to disturb the observation. In fact the reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Major_Moving_Group says we are at the outskirts of this system about 80 light years away. And this whole system is about 2/3 of distance outwards in the Akash Ganga Galaxy well away from the Super Massive Black hole.


Unless off course Arundhati and Vashishta are just some clan names or names of some frogs and goats.


Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_cluster#Eventual_fate
Many open clusters are inherently unstable, with a small enough mass that the escape velocity of the system is lower than the average velocity of the constituent stars. These clusters will rapidly disperse within a few million years. In many cases, the stripping away of the gas from which the cluster formed by the radiation pressure of the hot young stars reduces the cluster mass enough to allow rapid dispersal.[45]

Clusters which have enough mass to be gravitationally bound once the surrounding nebula has evaporated can remain distinct for many tens of millions of years, but over time internal and external processes tend also to disperse them. Internally, close encounters between stars can increase the velocity of a member beyond the escape velocity of the cluster. This results in the gradual 'evaporation' of cluster members.[46]

Externally, about every half-billion years or so an open cluster tends to be disturbed by external factors such as passing close to or through a molecular cloud. The gravitational tidal forces generated by such an encounter tend to disrupt the cluster. Eventually, the cluster becomes a stream of stars, not close enough to be a cluster but all related and moving in similar directions at similar speeds. The timescale over which a cluster disrupts depends on its initial stellar density, with more tightly packed clusters persisting for longer. Estimated cluster half lives, after which half the original cluster members will have been lost, range from 150–800 million years, depending on the original density.[46]

After a cluster has become gravitationally unbound, many of its constituent stars will still be moving through space on similar trajectories, in what is known as a stellar association, moving cluster, or moving group. Several of the brightest stars in the 'Plough' of Ursa Major are former members of an open cluster which now form such an association, in this case, the Ursa Major moving group.[47] Eventually their slightly different relative velocities will see them scattered throughout the galaxy. A larger cluster is then known as a stream, if we discover the similar velocities and ages of otherwise unrelated stars.[48][49]

[shiv]

I have been having a relook at a few of the genetics papers linked earlier - particularly the one that brought up the subject of Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. In order that we do not fool ourselves into talking rubbish, let me put down a few points that come out from the genetics paper/s.

There is (according to this paper ) a uniquely India set of genes different from European and Chinese. This Indian set of genes are mixed and present in most Indians, but can be divided into two types - the Ancestral North Indian(ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).

25 groups have been sampled from 13 states and the total number of samples is very low - 132 out of 1 billion Indians. Of this some groups are disproportionately represented and the selection of groups is odd.

The samples are taken from the following groups and mostly less than 5 samples per group except groups like "Kurumba" and "Andamanese" (9 samples each)

Upper caste Indo European language

• Kashmiri Pandit
  Vaish
  Srivastava
  Sahariya
  Lodi
  Satnami

Tribal Indo European language

• Bhil
  Tharu

Lower caste Indo European language

• Meghawal

Middle caste Dravidian language

• Vysya

Upper Caste Dravidian language

• Naidu
  Velama

Lower caste Dravidian language

• Madiga
  Mala
  Kamsali

Tribal Dravidian language

• Chenchu
  Kurumba
  Hallaki

Tribal Austro Asiatic language

• Santhal
  Kharia

Tribal Tibeto Burman language

• Nyshi
  Ao Naga

Siddi (odd man out these are African Bantus)

Jarawa Onge language hunter gatherer

• Onge

Andamanese language hunter gatherer

• Gr. Andamanese

The so called ANI genes are genes that show a relationship to Western Eurasians. The percentage of ANI and ASI that all Indians have is variable. Upper caste Hindus from the North and West have the highest percentage of ANI genes which are similar to Eurasian genes and they have a lower percentage of Ancestral South Indian (ASI). Lower caste North Indians have a slightly lower percentage of ANI. Upper caste Dravdian speakers have a lower percentage of ANi than these and more ASI. Lower caste Dravidan speakers have an even lower percentage than the previous group.
Incidentally Pathans and Pakistani Sindhis were also sampled and they had the highest percentage of Eurasian genes. the conclusion is that the further you go from the north west border of India the lower the percentage of north western genes. This basically makes nonsense out of the AIT theory that caste was created to avoid gene mixture. All people, from lowest to highest caste have both Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian genes, whether they are Indo-European language speakers or not.

One curious finding is that if you look at European genes, you do not find a graded mixture of Indian genes suggesting that Indians migrated to Europe. It wa always people coming from cold desert to warm welcoming tropics. They were not excluding and driving people away. They were interbreeding freely.

One this this study clearly says is that it cannot give any timeline for when this admixture occurred. Other papers have shown dates as far back as 7 to 10,000 years or earlier, but this sort of dating is very inaccurate and assumes that genes mutate like clocks tick One mutation per so many years. This is simply not true.

Also there is no strict correlation between language and genes. The genes do not correspond to language. North west Indian have a lot of South genes and Dravidian language speakers have ANi Eurasian genes. That basically kills the Aryan migration theory in which a superior Aryan race with different language kept their purity by creating the caste system - leaving the Dravdians as a separate race of low caste people

In fact if you look at the genetic data and the geographic and archaeo-astronomic data in the Rig Veda the remote dates are in no way contradicted by these genetic findings. It is the linguists who have created a problem by dating the Rg veda to match a silly linguistic spread theory

[ramana]

Some one said in GDF>link language thread, sanskrit is unknown because it relates to brahminism. so, how do we de-link this?

Valmiki, Adi Kavi, who wrote the first kavya, the Ramayana was a tribal.

Veda Vyasa the arranger of the Vedas, the writer of the Mahabharata and the Bhagvatam was the son of a fisher woman. In the Mahabharata there are numerous times that rishis and Brahmins seek advice and wisdom from other groups including a butcher: Dharmavyada.

So how is Sanskrit related to Brahminism?

Or were all these people speaking in PIE!

[Sushupti]

some one said in GDF>link language thread, sanskrit is unknown because it relates to brahminism. so, how do we de-link this?

Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia

Refuting the Sanskrit Phobics:
http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=26

[shiv]

Let me suggest one more alternate hypothesis. But I am not going to speculate on any direction of travel of language like into India and out of India etc. At least initially I won't speculate.

It was considered an axiom by sociologists, linguists and other "use science only when it is convenient" groups that language=culture and culture=language. Stemming from this was the idea that culture + language = race. Race theories were cooked up before genetics was known. Genetics has killed the race theory, but the old ideas of language=nation=culture=one race have not gone yet.

If you look at studies of Indian genes there is no correlation between language and genes. Indians have a mix of genes that do not correspond to languages spoken and the findings do not gel in with the idea that one set of people (Aryan race) brought in a language and culture (Indo European) and protected their racial group by segregation using a special caste system. No such segregation has occurred. There is gene mixing across all caste groups with fewer Eurasian genes the further you go into mainland India and away from Eurasia. This is like saying that they further you go from Africa into Europe, the fewer African genes you get. No big deal. But let me move on from here.

If language does not correspond to genes or race, the AIT/AMT-inspired idea that one race/culture brought IE language to India suffers. The biggest casualty of that is the currently used dates for languages. If the claim is that a horse culture with IE language spread to India by 1200 BC, that idea is not supported by genetics. Even using the new paper quoted above the ASI/ANI mixing has been dated as earlier than 1200 BC. If Aryans brought in their language and horse cooking culture by 1200 BC all the mixing had already occurred.

There are two possible explanations. One is that the language came in 1200 BC as stated by the linguists but there is no genetic, archaeological or literary evidence of any such language carrying groups coming to India. The alternate possibility is that the language pre-dates 1200 BC.

Let us assume that someone ("Aryans"} did come from Eurasia and did bring language. Let us assume that they did create a culture that restricted genetic mixing by a varna-jati system (misinterpreted as "caste" by ignorant racist western AIT buffoons). The genetic findings suggest that either mixing had already occurred by the time these people came (maybe as early as 4000 or even 7000 BC as per various gene papers discussed) or that the language and culture itself came much earlier than 4000 BC and stopped the genetic mixing by creating the varna-jati (caste) system - so that the mixing was reduced after 4000 BC and was pretty much over by 1200 BC.

But if the language and caste system culture had come into India by 4000 BC it makes Indian theories about the antiquity of Sanskrit true. It also make the horse-chariot Central Asia Kurgan hypothesis of 2000 BC a whole load of crock. It also kills the speculation that horse riders started from Central Asia in 2000 BC with PIE, came to Syria (Mitanni) by 1500 BC and went to India by 1200 BC, then composed the Rig Veda, established caste and stopped mixing of genes after 1200 BC. The gene papers all say that mixing stopped before 1200 BC.

There remains a third possibility of an Indian origin of the langauge as early or earlier than 4000 BC. But I will not say anything about that now. Everything we have so far goes against an AMT in 1500-1200 BC and for an origin of the Vedas that predates the currently touted date of 1200 BC. Basicaly that kills all current language spread theories without using even one of the great arguments and proofs posted by people like Frawley, Elst, Rajaram, Talageri and our own Nilesh Oak. Add them all together and there is very strong support for the need for a radically different explanation of the pre 1200 BC history of India

[A_Gupta]

No, Krishna was born in Mathura.

Thanks. North India. Our minds have been conditioned to internalize the AIT because all our knowledge comes from English and Sanskrit is Greek to us (with apologies to Talageri)

Hehe, there is one theory which says it is Mathura of the south, Madurai

[shiv]

Thanks. North India. Our minds have been conditioned to internalize the AIT because all our knowledge comes from English and Sanskrit is Greek to us (with apologies to Talageri)

Hehe, there is one theory which says it is Mathura of the south, Madurai

That is OK. Not a problem. See how high caste warriors like Arjuna went and prostrated themselves at Krishna's feet - you have "internal evidence" that there was no South-North, Dravidian-Aryan differentiation as proposed by AIT Nazis of the WitMer genre

[Murugan]

Maha Vishnu is Dravidian and many of his avatars are take-any-direction indian. Vishnu still stays in the ocean with snakes.

Raavan was an ANI and settled down in south after conquering kuber but worshipped a person from god forsaken land called kailas far north, shiv, who said to have developed south indian language still worshipped in south.

Chaitanya maha prabhu was AEI ancestral east indian whose larget followers one will find amongst descendants of AWI ancestral west indian.

Kuppuswami Sanskrit Research Inst in Mylapore chennai needed fund around 1922. An AWI called Dayanand Saraswati who was very famous amonst ANIs of India and todays pakistan, gave lectures in chennai to collect fund for KSRI of ASI lineage.

One of dravidian vishnu avatar was a goanese called Parshuram. One ANI called Agastya muni went south to see how ASI are doing and got a star named after him so that people do not forget his visit to the land of ASI. The star is known as canopus amongst people of yet to ascertain their ancestry in far west of steppe

[shiv]

Was this posted earlier? I seem to have read it but these refs do not show up on Google as frequently as AIT Nazi literature

There is no scientific basis for the Aryan Invasion Theory - T. R. S. Prasanna

[Murugan]

Eminent Hostorians : Their Technology, Their Line, Their Fraud by Arun Shourie

Has this been mentioned before?

[member_23686]

Not to derail the discussion but few pages earlier there was a discussion about possible sanskrit name for Darius. How about "DharYash" (one who holds yash)? Cyrus might be "Suyash"/"Suryash", Xerses is difficult.

Just my two cowries only.

[Nilesh Oak]

Wim Borsboom's 'ABCD or ABRACADABRA' boolet available for free download in PDF at the following link,

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/f4tse3q2gvarq0 ... 2.pdf?dl=1

[Arjun]

A good analysis of Reich's ANI - ASI data on Indian genetics: Understanding Reich et al

[Arjun]

Has anybody read Premendra Priyadarshi's book referred to in this link: The First Civilization of the World ?

He details some of his views in the blog posts below the book abstract...seems quite interesting.

[RajeshA]

Wim Borsboom's 'ABCD or ABRACADABRA' boolet available for free download in PDF at the following link,

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/f4tse3q2gvarq0 ... 2.pdf?dl=1

He really needs to publish a book on this! And make some money as well! Pro-Indics need plenty of resources!

[RajeshA]

Was this posted earlier? I seem to have read it but these refs do not show up on Google as frequently as AIT Nazi literature

There is no scientific basis for the Aryan Invasion Theory - T. R. S. Prasanna

The paper was posted earlier in this thread. There are so many links in the mean time in this thread, one would forget it even if someone had posted it himself. We would have to use search facility more often to look for resources here.

[shiv]

Not to derail the discussion but few pages earlier there was a discussion about possible sanskrit name for Darius. How about "DharYash" (one who holds yash)? Cyrus might be "Suyash"/"Suryash", Xerses is difficult.

Just my two cowries only.

The translations of the Old Persian text in the Behistun inscriptions commissioned by Darius read "Aham Daravayus" - "I am Darius"

[RajeshA]

shiv saar,

in your post on ANI-ASI admixture, you referred to dates of 4000 BCE and 1200 BCE. I just wished to remark that in the Harvard+CCMB Genetics paper, the reference to the major phase of admixture is 4000-1200 YBP, just in case it gives rise to some confusion.

[shiv]

shiv saar,

the reference to the major phase of admixture is 4000-1200 YBP, just in case it gives rise to some confusion.

Hmm so it is. I didn't notice that. It means admixture stopped 1200 years ago and that castes were born around 800 AD, 150 years after Mohammad and and not before.

That makes a right royal mess of the Aryan invasion theory because it means caste developed and spread all over India in 200 years and stopped admixture just before Al Beruni came to India and wrote about it.

But frankly, I cannot believe that it is possible to use genetic methods for measuring time spans as short as 200 or 400 years. The method is not that accurate. But if you find surviving genetic material of some human or animal from 800 AD (1200 years old), then you can compare that with modern genetic material and "calibrate" the clock to get better estimates.

[RajeshA]

Has anybody read Premendra Priyadarshi's book referred to in this link: The First Civilization of the World ?

He details some of his views in the blog posts below the book abstract...seems quite interesting.

Premendra Priyadarshi's Papers on scribd



Understanding Reich et al




Recent Studies in Indian Archaeo-linguistics and Archaeo-genetics having bearing on Indian Prehistory




Linguistic, Archaeological and Genetic Evidence favoring Origin of some of the Breeds of Domestic Horse "Equus Cabalus" from India[/url]




Identification of some Ancient and very Basic Items in the Vocabulary of the Indo-European Language




Linguistic Evidence for Indian Origin of Indo-European Languages




Flora, Fauna and Nature in Aryan Urheimat




Fallacies in the Views of Witzel and other Authors regarding Place of Origin of the Aryans




Witzel's Claims Found Wrong: The Indo-European Fauna: as revealed by linguistics and archaeology, read along Witzel’s claims about Aryan Homeland




Did Austro-Asiatic speakers originate in China/ Southeast Asia and then migrate to India with Rice Agriculture? NO!




Mice Migration and Human Migration: Two Linked Journeys




A Genetical Study of Human Migration: Book Review of "First Civilization of the World"
By Dr D K Bhattacharya




Caste has Nothing to do with Varna: Recent Studies Support that Caste did not Originate from Vedic Varna




The Origin of the Hindu Caste System and Presence of Caste Systemin Other Societies of World




Caste has not evolved from Varna: Tribal and Guild Origins of Modern Hindu Castes




Respect for the Shudras and other downtrodden in Ancient India




Perspectives of Caste Census: Why it is needed Today?

[RajeshA]

shiv saar,

if you are interested in exploring the origins of caste in India, you'll find the writings of Premendra Priyadarshi on the topic quite informative!

Conclusion: Caste comes from Persia!

Actually the implications of his views are really profound.

Disclaimer: Though this thread is not for discussion caste system in India, we see AIT-Nazis claiming that that the caste system in India came out of invading Indo-Aryans forming the upper castes and the previous inhabitants in India forming the lower castes. As such the topic of "Origin of Castes" become relevant in the context! Though one need not expand this issue too much in this thread!

[RajeshA]

The Gates of Grief (Bab el Mandeb)
By Stephen Oppenheimer

If one goes to the interactive animation on the node L3, the Out-of-Africa Eve, the Mother of all of us non-Africans, one sees that that almost all matrilineal lines have their origin in the Indian Subcontinent!

[RajeshA]

An AIT-Nazi Paper

It seems every two bit Christianist wants to tell India about our origins.

The Development of Civilization and Religion in India and its Influence on the World Society

Code: Select all

http://www.appiusforum.net/book.pdf

Don't go by the topic! It is all AIT-Nazi material and also Christianist at that!

[RajeshA]

AIT-Nazi Book



Author: Arthur Llewellyn Basham
The Wonder That Was India: A Survey of the Culture of the Indian Sub-Continent Before the Coming of the Muslims [flipkart] [Amazon]

Even though the Basham was of the view that Indo-Aryans invaded India sometime in the past, he had some interesting things to say on caste, as has been pointed out by Premendra Priyadarshi in his paper on the "Origin of Castes"! Some quotes in the paper

Basham noted that the oldest of Hindu texts the Rig Veda mentions the word "shudra" only once and that is of a doubtful etymology (Basham:143).

The context where the word shudra occurs only once in the Rig-Veda is the Purusha Sukta of the tenth mandala which is considered a late interpolation. And there too it is a poetic ormetaphorical representation of society, which means that the brahmana is the mouth (or reservoir of knowledge) of the society, the kshatriya is the arms (defence force) of thesociety, the vaishya is the thighs (productive force) of the society and the shudra is the feet(moving force on which society moves) of the society. Association with feet is not to derogate the working classes, but to assert that the society cannot move or 'progress' without the shudras. The Vedic sukta neither implies hereditary nature of the four sections of the society, nor that they been endogamous. Hence the Vedic classes (varna-s) bear in no way any resemblance with the caste system. In fact caste appears in India only during the late medieval (or Muslim) period of Indian history (Basham:148).

Also a quote from Max Weber from the paper

Max Waber, noted, "Perhaps the most important gap in the ancient Veda is its lack of any reference to caste... nowhere does it refer to the substantive content of the caste order in the meaning which it later assumed and which is characteristic only of Hinduism." (Weber:396).

[RajeshA]

Origin of Caste

Premendra Priyadarshi writes in his paper

We note that in Persian there has been a word zat meaning caste. Word zat is also present in Pushto, where it means 'caste' e.g. bad-zat means 'born in low caste'. Another word meaning caste today in North India is biradari, which too is Persian in origin. These two words were brought to India by Persian speaking Muslims after 1000 AD. Because of absence of 'z' sound in India, zat became jat in North India. More recently, there was a trend to Sanskritize language, i.e. to replace vernacular words with similar sounding Sanskritwords. Hence people of Hindi region started using its nearest sounding Sanskrit word jati for literary and academic purposes. Yet the Muslims of North India still use the Persian word zat to mean caste in both written and spoken Urdu. That means currently used Indian word for caste jati is a product of derivation from Persian zat, and not the same word as Sanskrit jati.

Al-Biruni, who visited India in about 1000 AD, was aware of Iranian caste system (videinfra). His mother tongue being Persian, he was using the word zat for caste. Although Al-Biruni noted the four classes of people in India, he could not find any word for 'caste' in India. Hence he noted, "The Hindus call their castes 'colours'" ( Ibid.:p. 66). The statement is highly significant. It clearly shows that the Hindus did not have an equivalent word for caste. And it also makes clear that al-Biruni had a word for caste in his own language, exact equivalent of which he could not find in India. This is a philological or linguistic evidence of absence of caste system in India at about 1000 AD.

The question is why did Al-Beruni think in terms of zat, a Persian word? There were zat-s in Persia. How did they come about? Did the zat system develop in Persia after the fall of the Sassanids in 644 CE, after the Arabs under Umar captured the Persian Empire? Were the Persians treated with less respect and called "bad-zat"? Questions upon questions!

The point is caste had nothing to do with invading Indo-Aryans stratifying society on the basis of caste to keep indigenous Indians from mixing with them!

And on the question of caste, I find the idea that jati is actually a Persian import, extremely revolutionary!

[RajeshA]

Good analysis of the movie. Rajesh ji , I want this analysis of the movie also part of your article. We need to connect the AIT with current topics of the western art and humanities so that younger Indians can see for themselves how Indian ideas are being used in the west by them

Acharya garu,

In case you notice mainstream Western society or media using the concept of Aryanism, please to link. These would be useful to analyze them.

Of course there is all the White Supremacist groups across the Western world who are using Aryan references daily!

[RajeshA]

Good review of the Kivisild's paper on Indian population



Authors: Colin Renfrew, Katie Boyle
Archaeogenetics: DNA and the Population Prehistory of Europe





Publication Date: 1987
Author: Colin Renfrew
Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins [Amazon]

Accompanying article in Journal: Current Anthropology Volume 29, Number 3, June 1988

Same Subject

Published in the September 2006 Issue of PLoS Genetics
Authors: Michael F. Seldin, Russell Shigeta1, Pablo Villoslada, Carlo Selmi, Jaakko Tuomilehto, Gabriel Silva, John W. Belmont, Lars Klareskog, Peter K. Gregersen
European Population Substructure: Clustering of Northern and Southern Populations

[RoyG]

Check out this link:

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/steph ... heimer.php

[RajeshA]

RoyG ji,

Welcome! That link is quite well known on this thread and has been discussed earlier, e.g. on the first page of the thread here.

[RajeshA]

In the paper "Archaeogenetics: DNA and the Population Prehistory of Europe" linked above, there is a map on the last page. It posits two migrations into India - one from the Southern route (Bab-el-Mandeb, Straits of Hormuz, Iran), and one from the Northern route (Sinai Peninsula, Levant, Iran).



It is possible that those who came from the Northern route formed the Ancestral North Indians and those who came from the Southern route formed the Ancestral South Indians, and they started admixing in India.

[RoyG]

I apologize. I'v decided to start learning about Indian origins during study breaks. It's quite fascinating. I'll be honest, it can get a bit confusing due to the sheer volume of data supporting both sides.