Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[chetak]

Adm Arun Prakash always did make sense.

Government, military, babu

The best democracies in the world have retained firm civilian control over their armed forces not by isolating them, but by involving them in the national security decision-making process

[Sachin]

The Nyome incident and the current one, one needs to understand that these are forward postings and inherently more stressful. The demands on the officer and rank cadre are extreme. Stress can lead to a flashpoint.

I am sorry, but are you suggesting that suicide should be just ignored? We have a case of a soldier committing suicide using his service weapon. Won't it be better for the Army to investigate what happened here, so that they themselves can take corrective action? Let us ignore the case of the relatives stating that he was bumped off because he tried for the AAC course. But what about other reasons?

South Indian regiments have always been more difficult to handle. Not just being more educated, they are more aware of their rights, more likely to complain (not always without good reason), and more likely to feel aggrieved, and not very keen on work like sentry duty.

Any idea if the Army higher ups themselves are looking into this? Educational standards are only going to increase. The intake into the enlisted ranks also would reflect these changes. So if the rules are formed by the British some 60-80 years back keeping the educational and other cultural profiles which suited for those times, then I feel it should be now reverified. An Army off course will never become a true democratic instituition, but it should not be too autocratic either.

I feel before the government is accused of sleeping on its job, we should really check how is Army coping up with all this. If you ask me government is still a group of civilians, is it not the responsibility of the Army higher officers to think about the changing situations and recommend the government for some policy changes? And again only if it is some thing which the Army cannot change internally.

[shyamd]

New Corps for Mountain Warfare
Modernization and capability development of the Army is a dynamic and continuous process based on operational requirements and threat perceptions. Capability enhancement to effectively respond to the spectrum of challenges is a continuous process. Necessary budgetary support to facilitate this is optimally ensured.

This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri SugumarK.in Lok Sabha today.

[schowdhuri]

Hi,
Need help. It seems that the 16 Cav suicide had nothing to do with service issues, and all attempts to provide evidence to the contary is being ignored by the media, since it would not make the story so sensational. If anyone has contacts in media, who can carry the other side of the story please PM me (times seems to be taking the lead in ignoring actual evidence, and sensationalising the issue).

As you can guess, situation is not good on the ground because the stupid media coverage has totally messed things up. For instance look at this blog and some of the stupid comments:
In search of propriety

[Sachin]

Need help. It seems that the 16 Cav suicide had nothing to do with service issues, and all attempts to provide evidence to the contary is being ignored by the media, since it would not make the story so sensational.

As I said earlier, I don't really believe that the suicide happened because of service (i.e AAC and all other bakwaas) related issues. Most likely it would be because of personal problems at home, and perhaps denying the jawan the adequate leaves to address the same. And again I hope the Army is also looking into these suicides from all possible angles (not from a pure "he got frustrated, but this is the Army and this is how things work here" angle). Perhaps we may also need to check up the suicides in the Officer cadre as well. Is that also showing a dangerous trend?

[schowdhuri]

Need help. It seems that the 16 Cav suicide had nothing to do with service issues, and all attempts to provide evidence to the contary is being ignored by the media, since it would not make the story so sensational.

As I said earlier, I don't really believe that the suicide happened because of service (i.e AAC and all other bakwaas) related issues. Most likely it would be because of personal problems at home, and perhaps denying the jawan the adequate leaves to address the same. And again I hope the Army is also looking into these suicides from all possible angles (not from a pure "he got frustrated, but this is the Army and this is how things work here" angle). Perhaps we may also need to check up the suicides in the Officer cadre as well. Is that also showing a dangerous trend?

He did get leave - proof of that has even been shown to media - they are simply not interested because it would kill the story. That is why I asked if anyone could help in carrying the other side of the story. I don't want to get into details, but various parties including general officers have royally messed up a suicide, the reasons for which was no different from one committed by a young college boy in civil life. It is shocking how this is being handled by the senior officers - I suppose the most important thing is to have a shot at the next rank, everything else be dammed. This is not the army I grew up seeing.

[nelson]

Micro-management in such situations has become a bane and has reached alarming proportions. The corps commander should have eminently avoided visiting the place. I think Nitin Gokhale of ndtv might have a sympathetic ear. His twitter handle is nitingokhale. Sorry, that's about it.

Inquiry into such incidents, ordered by staff at a higher HQ, is a natural process to ascertain/ dismiss foul play after suicide or even accidental death. Further Armed forces in co-ordination with Defence Institute of Psychological Research- DIPR conduct routine case studies and statistic evaluation to ascertain systemic causes of suicide and fratricide.

[Avik]

came across a picture in the team-bhp forum. the travelogue was about Arunachal Pradesh, and there is a rarely seen formation sign on the board in front of the car.

Was wondering if this is the formation sign of one of the newly raised divs- 56/71?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachmen ... g_7813.jpg

[rohitvats]

came across a picture in the team-bhp forum. the travelogue was about Arunachal Pradesh, and there is a rarely seen formation sign on the board in front of the car.

Was wondering if this is the formation sign of one of the newly raised divs- 56/71?

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachmen ... g_7813.jpg

Excellent, my friend. And who else but you...

Could be the formation sign of 71 Division.

[rohitvats]

Gentlemen, our friend Nelson's repeated reference to 10M canal defenses on Pakistan side got me reading about the subject. I intend to write about the development of such canals with defensive purpose from an area starting from Fort Abbas to the sector opposite our Barmer sector.

Here is the Part 1 of the series that I've posted on my blog -
http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/08/pa ... south.html

MODS - how can I put the entire thing at one go on BRF? Thanks.

[bmallick]

I was wondering on the issues being raised by IA with regards to Namica & Nag combo and it struck to me that that as far as the IA is concerned it is going to get a better platform for Anti-Tank & Scout duties, compared to Namica. Hence, the need to keep there number small. The other platform is LCH. IA hass placed firm order of 114 LCH. There is nothing to stop army from ordering further more once induction starts.

Nag & Namica were concieved when LCH was not even near the furture plans. A LCH provides a far more flexible platform for Anti-Tank duties than Namica. It is airborne, faster & can easily deploy over a distance quickly. Thus a squad of LCH held 100 km away from the border, can easily respond to an emergency quickly over a distance of 300-400 km of the border. Reaching the area where they are needed in 20-30 mins. But, for responding over such large length you require far more number of Namica & staged further closer to the Border. Now some would say that LCH doesn't provide staying power, but Namica too alone does not provvide staying power the real staying power is provided by MBT's. Moreover, Helina far out guns Nag in terms of range.

Also for scout operations with the prevelance of UAV increasing, it is far more flexible to deploy UAV's for recon. Also LCH can too work on the scout role.

Guru's please comment.
Hence, with the advent of better platform in the IA, Namica as a platform may have missed the bus and would probably be inducted in smaller numbers only.

[member_22906]

^^
I am not a guru, but surely these 2 are not competing but for 2 very different scenarios. There are pros and cons for both. For e.g., LCH will be ineffective if there isnt adequate air superiority over the battlefield. You'll have issues if the enemy has enough and more SAMs/MANPADs.

LCH will provide greater flexibility in terms of reach and entry & exit from the battlefield in an apples to apples scenario, but then again it never is an apples to apples scenario

[Austin]

Videos from Indo-Russian Indra 2012 Exercise

http://gurkhan.blogspot.in/2012/08/2012_15.html

[kancha]

Anyone following the "Indian Army Fans" page on FB?
Just saw it the other day. Those folks seem to be doing a decent job

[merlin]

South Indian regiments have always been more difficult to handle. Not just being more educated, they are more aware of their rights, more likely to complain (not always without good reason), and more likely to feel aggrieved, and not very keen on work like sentry duty.

With 1/3rd the allocation of officers available, and then even more missing on courses etc, the much more career-focused officers of today, the steep promotion pyramid, I am actually surprised that there are so 'few' incidents.

We have all the ingredients ready for a tinderbox, and the govt as usual is sleeping.

Yes the officer shortage is going to bite us in the ass. So far we have been lucky.

[sum]

More of such issues coming out day by day:
Army jawan climbs mobile tower in protest

High drama was witnessed near New Delhi Railway station this evening when an armyman climbed a 200-feet mobile tower, apparently angry with his seniors for his alleged harassment. K Muthu, who is attached with Engineers Regiment, climbed the tower at Ajmeri Gate and stay put there and did not heed to appeals by police to come down, a senior police official said. Army sources claimed Muthu, who is deployed in Kota, had done the "Sholay stunt" earlier in Bangalore also. He has been absent from his unit since July seven without sanctioned leave. A Court of Inquiry is likely to be ordered soon against him and action will be taken, sources said adding he had sought retirement from the force.

One more report on the same:

Share · print · T+ There was high drama near New Delhi railway station on Friday after an Army man climbed a mobile tower accusing his seniors of harassing him.

Forty-year-old K. Muthu climbed the tower at Ajmeri Gate around 1 p.m. claiming that he had unresolved issues related to his job. A resident of Tamil Nadu, he told the police that he had been transferred quite frequently in the recent past and was not allowed to take any leave.

He demanded that leave be granted to him. He threatened to end his life by jumping down if his demands were not met.

A Brigadier from the Army also reached the spot later and talked to Muthu over the phone.

The Brigadier tried to assure him that his demands would be addressed.

This, however, failed to convince the jawan.

He threw pamphlets which had details of his grievances against his seniors.

[negi]

This is not an issue of officer shortage; problem is IA has too much manpower for it's own good. The good old days of strength in numbers is no longer true. One has to think about maintaining logistics, pay stubs, pension and family compulsions for such a big army. Friction in such a big institution does not come as a surprise to me. What IA and services need to do is think on the lines of SSC at non commissioned level too so that people who after completing their training and first couple of deployments realize that this is not what they signed up for can quit; right now there is no way a jawan can quit the services before completing his mandatory 15 years which given our situation is an absurd rule and needs to go, the whole concept of serving the nation is something which should come from inside and not because you signed a sheet of paper which compels you to do so.

[nelson]

^ +1

On the contrary, the Army is moving away from this instead of moving towards a shorter service liability. The SSC minimum tenure has been increased to 10 years from five years, which IMO is a retrograde step.

[negi]

^Isn't it 7 years + 3 years (extendable subject to special cases like completion of a certain course or specialization ?)

[nelson]

That was the earlier service contract 5 yrs minimum plus 2 plus 3 on extension.

Nowadays minimum is 10 yrs extendable up to 14 yrs and then left in the lurch...

http://joinindianarmy.nic.in/inner.aspx ... id=97&id=1

[anand_sankar]

WHAT! It is the same Thambi who went up the kambi (pole in tamil) in Bangalore!

There was talk he would be discharged on mental-health grounds and they did not?? Isn't one stunt like that enough to send you home, hell, any employer would send a suicidal employee packing.

I am still not sure if it is the same fellow, will check. If it is, then embarrassing for the army!

[schowdhuri]

Look at civilian life - the rule of law is in absolute shambles. Any person can air some grievances and go about doing illegal things. If you have a decent sized group, then absolutely anything goes.

The great media is there to give coverage and prevent suitable action from being taken, and possible action taken against those who might dare to make sure the rule of law is not violated. We only see the beginning of every story. No story is covered so that we know what finally happened. In fact, any truth which would make a story less sensational is ignored (16Cav incident).

Do you think the army jawans are not seeing and understanding this? Today they can do this because they know the generals will come running to pacify them. The generals know what will happen to their career due to bad media coverage. The CO will not get a free hand to sort things out.

We are all witnessing the last institution of any repute in the country finally breaking down. Oh yes, they will fight well, and are fighting well, it's the 'izzat' part that is going down the drain.

[Sachin]

Do you think the army jawans are not seeing and understanding this? Today they can do this because they know the generals will come running to pacify them. The generals know what will happen to their career due to bad media coverage. The CO will not get a free hand to sort things out.

This Thambi on top of the Kambi should be immediately dismissed on medical grounds. I am getting a strong feeling that many of the people who join the Army are thinking in that typical "socialistic mindset". That is looking for a job with a good pay, with no risk and umpteen perks. The Indian media would for sure keep on supporting the very many nut cases in the Army (as well as in other services/working force) so that some brownie points can be scored. I would not be really surprised that folks soon would ask for trade unions in Army units (this was a pipe dream of at least one Mallu commie).

But rather than General ranking officers start interfering on these cases, better would be to train the other unit-level officers to address them. If you ask me, there are too many folks who are joining Army because of a good pay-scale and an assumption that this is a low risk job. Once the assumption goes wrong, these people reveal their true colours.

[anand_sankar]

Thambi is still on the Kambi, 2 days now! Turning out to be a legendary PR c**k-up!

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/harassed-arm ... 427-3.html

[sum]

^^ CNN-IBN reporting that Indian army soldiers are being fed 3 times the normal diet required!!

Indian Army is fat not fit, says internal audit

Is the Indian Army unfit? An internal audit of the Army conducted in 2011 by the Controller of Defence Accounts has raised questions about the quantity and quality of food being fed to the men. The audit says normal military diet could be three times more than what is recommended by the ICMR. The Army has dismissed the findings.

According to the audit report, the recommended dietary intake of cereals for normal human consumption is 460 grams per day, while the Indian Army gives 600 grams per day.

As for pulses the recommended norm is 40 grams. The Army's prescribed scales are more than double. Similarly the medical body ICMR recommends 30 grams of sugar per day. The men in uniform get 90 grams.

The ICMR recommends just 30 grams of meat per person per day as ideal for health but according to the audit report army men get 100 grams of fresh meat. In case of potatoes only 50 grams is permissible but the Indian Army gets 100 grams on a standard basis.

The audit report also refers to two other anomalies that the same scale of food items is provided to army personnel across all age groups. And number two, since food consumption also depends on the nature of the job being done, those deployed in widely divergent terrains and climate may need a higher calorific value than those in warm areas.

Further, the level of physical activity also varies from administrative duties to strenuous physical ones, so should the scale of rations.

[schowdhuri]

^^ CNN-IBN reporting that Indian army soldiers are being fed 3 times the normal diet required!!

Indian Army is fat not fit, says internal audit

Is the Indian Army unfit? An internal audit of the Army conducted in 2011 by the Controller of Defence Accounts has raised questions about the quantity and quality of food being fed to the men. The audit says normal military diet could be three times more than what is recommended by the ICMR. The Army has dismissed the findings.

According to the audit report, the recommended dietary intake of cereals for normal human consumption is 460 grams per day, while the Indian Army gives 600 grams per day.

As for pulses the recommended norm is 40 grams. The Army's prescribed scales are more than double. Similarly the medical body ICMR recommends 30 grams of sugar per day. The men in uniform get 90 grams.

The ICMR recommends just 30 grams of meat per person per day as ideal for health but according to the audit report army men get 100 grams of fresh meat. In case of potatoes only 50 grams is permissible but the Indian Army gets 100 grams on a standard basis.

The audit report also refers to two other anomalies that the same scale of food items is provided to army personnel across all age groups. And number two, since food consumption also depends on the nature of the job being done, those deployed in widely divergent terrains and climate may need a higher calorific value than those in warm areas.

Further, the level of physical activity also varies from administrative duties to strenuous physical ones, so should the scale of rations.

Pretty amazing, isn't it - That soldiers are fat is taken for granted without actually checking if the soldiers are fat. Simple common sense tells me if I were to find that excess food was being allocated, I would check if a) the excess food was actually being consumed, and b) the soldiers were actually fat. I wonder if the inference is from CNN-IBN side disguised to look like it came from CDA.

[member_22906]

It'll be interesting to find out what is the basis of regular human consumption - IOW, what is the level of physical activity (calorie burn) expected for arriving @ 460 gms

I personally feel this audit finding is as bizarre as an audit finding which questioned why the Light AD 23mm guns were being used in direct fire mode in Siachen. The fall-out of that was the then RM George Fernandes had sent the babu who had made that notification to Siachen to get a first hand experience of what our troops experience there

[vishvak]

-- deleted -- not relevant.

[member_22906]

^^

Didn't understand your post vishvak

[Singha]

this is like late Amjad Khan (pbuh) being the dietician who recommends the food intake of Mo Farah and Usain Bolt.

they have no idea what they are talking about.

[aniket]

^^ CNN-IBN reporting that Indian army soldiers are being fed 3 times the normal diet required!!

Indian Army is fat not fit, says internal audit

Is the Indian Army unfit? An internal audit of the Army conducted in 2011 by the Controller of Defence Accounts has raised questions about the quantity and quality of food being fed to the men. The audit says normal military diet could be three times more than what is recommended by the ICMR. The Army has dismissed the findings.

According to the audit report, the recommended dietary intake of cereals for normal human consumption is 460 grams per day, while the Indian Army gives 600 grams per day.

As for pulses the recommended norm is 40 grams. The Army's prescribed scales are more than double. Similarly the medical body ICMR recommends 30 grams of sugar per day. The men in uniform get 90 grams.

The ICMR recommends just 30 grams of meat per person per day as ideal for health but according to the audit report army men get 100 grams of fresh meat. In case of potatoes only 50 grams is permissible but the Indian Army gets 100 grams on a standard basis.

The audit report also refers to two other anomalies that the same scale of food items is provided to army personnel across all age groups. And number two, since food consumption also depends on the nature of the job being done, those deployed in widely divergent terrains and climate may need a higher calorific value than those in warm areas.

Further, the level of physical activity also varies from administrative duties to strenuous physical ones, so should the scale of rations.

This sure is funny, if the food intake had been even a gram less than what is "prescribed' then the headlines would have poorly fed army.Typical DDM

[Nihat]

Amazing reporting that , as Army as a whole has been painted in one stroke as fat and all that based on food intake. How stupid is our media getting. It's like saying ,"hey , you eat a lot more than me , hence must be fat".

[Amitabh]

reporting with a purpose to create as much trouble as possible. $ for $, nothing has better ROI than hit jobs by news papers. Wonder who is financing the CNN IBN

The Reliance is financing the CNN IBN. Maybe Mukesh Ambani wants to eat the army's food (heads up for the next Subramanian Swamy video on this).

[Surya]

its all in of chase attention grabbing headlines.

also a reflection on the retards that join these professions with few exceptions

[Ghatotkacha]

^^ CNN-IBN reporting that Indian army soldiers are being fed 3 times the normal diet required!!

Indian Army is fat not fit, says internal audit

Is the Indian Army unfit? An internal audit of the Army conducted in 2011 by the Controller of Defence Accounts has raised questions about the quantity and quality of food being fed to the men. The audit says normal military diet could be three times more than what is recommended by the ICMR. The Army has dismissed the findings.

According to the audit report, the recommended dietary intake of cereals for normal human consumption is 460 grams per day, while the Indian Army gives 600 grams per day.

As for pulses the recommended norm is 40 grams. The Army's prescribed scales are more than double. Similarly the medical body ICMR recommends 30 grams of sugar per day. The men in uniform get 90 grams.

The ICMR recommends just 30 grams of meat per person per day as ideal for health but according to the audit report army men get 100 grams of fresh meat. In case of potatoes only 50 grams is permissible but the Indian Army gets 100 grams on a standard basis.

The audit report also refers to two other anomalies that the same scale of food items is provided to army personnel across all age groups. And number two, since food consumption also depends on the nature of the job being done, those deployed in widely divergent terrains and climate may need a higher calorific value than those in warm areas.

Further, the level of physical activity also varies from administrative duties to strenuous physical ones, so should the scale of rations.

I think the study is fundamentally flawed and journalist/News-agency reporting above demonstrate a level of de-gradation of human-intellect .

In fact, to put such headline, the study should be about BMI level or Fat% of army personals not their food-intake. And, also the data should be categorized among different branches of Army (i.e. ASC, Infantry, Armored etc). So that, diet and exercise programmed could be re-configured to attain desired fitness level in each branch.

To some level, I agree that there are few more Army personals in Indian army with "pot-belly" than there are in NATO or Russian army. I am speaking from what I see on television, so I might be wrong too

[SBajwa]

I think that they journalist mistook Punjab Police for Indian Army.

[pmund]

i was rolling in laughter, remembering the good old days the auditors have no clue that the army takes out many times more in sweat and blood than it puts in.... 100g of meat vanishes in 10 toe-touches and a potato or two is a joke for someone running 15km with 15kilo packs.... good laugh, that's all there is to this joke of a media report

[member_23694]

our media is always more interested in creating sensation rather than covering something meaningful....
do they ever audit within themselves as to how many journalist have even a basic understanding of the topic
they are covering.....
some of the problems within the the country should also be attributed to the media for the kind
of coverage they give to issues just to create sensation and some rubbish discussion in the studio

[jai]

To all the bashers of the reported article above - please read it again.

It's one of the more impartial pieces of reporting seen of late. The study was done internally by controller of defense accounts - and not media ! Furthermore, the article also mentions the army dismissal of the report, so it's not a biased piece of reporting. Now who ordered the study and why, what are the comparative global military standards and why, what are the average numbers of calories spent by a soldier in various conditions etc is not mentioned - for example how many calories does a soldier spend on normal patrolling and border duties at 22-24000 ft altitude v/s in 50*c in raj/Guj borders or inside an armored vehicle in these areas on deployment spends and needs etc etc, would have made for more interesting reading but that's the bane of copy paste journalism of the type we see here - at least less damaging than the rest of ddmitis that we see more frequently. On the other hand, quality of journalism like all other good things in this country has taken a nose dive, so is there any point complaining - except perhaps than knowing better ? Cheers !!

[nakul]

How is the food served in the armed forces? Is it a buffet like system where one can eat to ones heart's content or rations where each one gets a fixed amount?

If its the former, I believe that jawans would have to undergo some kind of fitness tests (like running 10 km in 40 min, walking 20 km in 4 hrs). Since each body has different efficiency level, the system of handing out equal calories (as mentioned in the report) will result in different fitness levels of jawans.

Does anyone know whether the standards mentioned are for normal human consumtion apply to soldiers who are not definitely not working in normal human conditions?