Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Will · Post by **Will** » 28 Jul 2012 23:03

Well no one can deny RIL's legendary lobby skills. They can make and break govt's. They have almost every party in their pockets. Have always been saying that Reliance should get into defence for the simple reason that they have the muscle to cut through red tape and make things happen. I hope that one of their main focuses in R&D is building a Jet engine. The country needs strong private players in the aerospace domain. HAL is nothing more than a screw driver company.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 28 Jul 2012 23:19

I don't know but isn't this a real disadvantage. The lobbying skills would help push substandard products in the armed forces. Isn't the same lobbying skill that keeps the PSUs in their current state?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 28 Jul 2012 23:46

nakul wrote:I don't know but isn't this a real disadvantage. The lobbying skills would help push substandard products in the armed forces. Isn't the same lobbying skill that keeps the PSUs in their current state?

The PSUs are an arm of the Govt. Their bosses and employees get paid whether anything gets done or not. It is not in their self-interest to lobby the GOI to make decisions faster and get the projects completed faster and deliver the products faster. The private players' self-interest is the opposite. Therein lies the difference.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jul 2012 00:04

yeah, right. the focus area should be the strong point of private industries, and who is most capable. never do a mistake like done for LCA MMR when LRDE should have taken it, when HAL was playing around with it.

GTRE should slowly relinquish their focus areas to R&D alone; while they provide services to private industries.. and that would make them suck up niche things that should include some knowledge transfers.

Private industries should send their person for training especially on assignments to PW, GE, Snecma on a contractual basis. In addition, ask men from other companies to participate as contractors for local projects to begin with - say 5 year plan till such time, knowledge base establishes [tax concessions etc].

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 29 Jul 2012 00:56

Kakkaji wrote:
nakul wrote:I don't know but isn't this a real disadvantage. The lobbying skills would help push substandard products in the armed forces. Isn't the same lobbying skill that keeps the PSUs in their current state?
The PSUs are an arm of the Govt. Their bosses and employees get paid whether anything gets done or not. It is not in their self-interest to lobby the GOI to make decisions faster and get the projects completed faster and deliver the products faster. The private players' self-interest is the opposite. Therein lies the difference.

I am talking about kickbacks. Lobbying is just another form of kickback. Would Reliance be a better solution than a PSU which pushes its products at the expense of the military? Both can deliver products fast when money is pushed through the right channels.

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Jul 2012 11:39

Reliance is putting in Rs. 5600 crores, which is not peanuts. Compare it with HAL putting in only Rs. 600 crores for the MRCA line. Reliance has tradition of seeking to be world standard, it would be interesting to see the steps they take. They have also got a Rs. 1000 crore Homeland security contract. They are also entering into 4G Telecom.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Jul 2012 12:42

nakul wrote:I don't know but isn't this a real disadvantage. The lobbying skills would help push substandard products in the armed forces. Isn't the same lobbying skill that keeps the PSUs in their current state?

Still the money doesn't go outside the nation. Also be it hawk deal or numerous other russkie deals we have been getting substandard stuff.

Desi company has to stay here so they'll be more afraid than a foreign company as the management/owners have to live here.

Plus our citizens will be getting jobs and money for creating armaments for our own Sena.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jul 2012 21:30

vic wrote:Reliance is putting in Rs. 5600 crores, which is not peanuts. ..

agree.. we have to be also careful when it comes to national security matters. so, a regulated approach is ideal. I would like a strong private-gov establishment framework to get this done. where 80-90% of the job is done by private, and 10-20% ensures no loopholes... here is where the integration masters, CAG, MoD, and DRDO labs needs their role play - for assimilation, r&d, integration of home-grown tech, planning and execution controls - la inspection raaj!.. but process specific.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jul 2012 23:53

can we list out all the super duper commerical/defence engineered products Reliance have made?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliance_Industries
and update this link.

now, tell me if Reliance could be a risk for MMRCA. This puppy is already delayed like hell. I would say, they better stick to funding the project, and perhaps look at man-materials and project managment.

vic · Post by **vic** » 30 Jul 2012 01:53

I would take a corrupt Indian company anyday over foreign imports.

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 02 Aug 2012 19:10

Hi folks ... I flew the Rafale a few weeks back in Istres in France. Major article coming up on our website www.ndtv.com preceding the documentaries which will air later. Some incredible video and a few images as well ... Stay tuned !

Your favourite DDM,

Vishnu Som
Editor Documentaries and Special Projects
NDTV

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Aug 2012 19:17

vic wrote:I would take a corrupt Indian company anyday over foreign imports.

If I don't counter this, I am doing injustice to my values.

I disagree here. This is sending a wrong message. The focus should be entirely on user requirements with zilch corruption be it import or better preferably local made that exceeds import quality.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 03 Aug 2012 12:19

Vishnu wrote: Your favourite DDM,

Vishnu Som
Editor Documentaries and Special Projects
NDTV

Well that certainly is true

Keep them coming.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 13 Aug 2012 16:04

Posting from Naval thread:

KBDagha wrote:Germany Seizes Indian Naval Planes Engines

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/arti ... 66440.html

Another reason for me to be happy that rotten ef2k got rejected in MMRCA, these sanctimonious self-righteous germans showing there true colors.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 13 Aug 2012 17:48

^^What is more hilarious is that this sanctimoniousness is in spite of the fact that every rogue WMD project in the world has a German national or company associated with it, be it chemical or nuclear.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 13 Aug 2012 21:56

...On the Indo-French Rafale deal, Browne said that the bilateral negotiation process is now half-way through and is expected to pick up later this month. “I have flown the aircraft and we all are satisfied and happy with the aircraft. We hope the deal will be completed by the end of the financial year.”

http://idrw.org/?p=13184

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Aug 2012 22:00

^watch out for the russkians to pull the plug... pak-fa et al.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2012 22:03

the germans are just doing a shakedown act asking for special permits which will no doubt entail some fees for letting arms and dangerous gear transit their fabled shores.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Aug 2012 22:09

Usually engines and such stuff from Roos come via AN-124 (if it's a oversize cargo which is not the case) or else on board an IL-76 , wonder why did the shipment go to Germany in first place . May be it's a case of someone in Rosonboronexport going to some cheap airline ticket website and getting the lowest possible quote from a carrier which flies through Germany.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2012 22:56

the bear engines are quite large..among the largest and most speedy turboprops ever fielded. ofcourse a IL76 or AN124 can take it. but a 747 cargo hauler might carry all 4 where a IL76 cannot.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Aug 2012 02:04

superb rafale demo in Russia. Maneuverability is outstanding.
If your connexion is ok watch it in HD

[youtube]on2XpSBqfes&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 15 Aug 2012 02:49

great video....check at 3:08 ....that was really fantastic......
any video of Rafale with full weapon load of > 9 tonnes , flying available ? then please share

any idea which will be the best AESA on the Indian planes...between Rafale , FGFA, Super Sukhoi, LCA MK2....
what will be the impact of having 4 different AESA....any commonality say between the FGFA and Super Sukhoi
and say between the LCA MK2 and Rafale possible

How does the Rafale AESA compare with typhoon AESA and F series......

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2012 03:08

we had this or a similar one reviewed in this thread earlier. fantastic video. I think it was more like without TVC type maneuver if I am right in that video was captured from kat flying from right to left as you see on the video clip.

I think if you compare number of t/rs, typhoon will take a better kill with its AESA for sure. But, we are not sure what type of t/rs Rafale AESA is made up.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 15 Aug 2012 09:10

FWIW
http://t.co/Qpmciavy

Rafales recently visited Great Britain. Instructions were issued to British pilots, with their “Typhoon” Eurofighters, to NOT engage in war games with French Rafales.

Is it all bad with the Typhoon Eurofighters? Well, not at all, as long as they stay away from Rafales, and go shoot F22s!

Which exercise? How does one take part in an exercise & not engage a participant?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 15 Aug 2012 10:27

Little problem with rafale's india website

When Gateway of India was a Heritage of India and when Tajmahal represented culture of India?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Aug 2012 11:10

^^^ Hats off sir! That is a very astute observation.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 19 Aug 2012 21:01

Just got done approving photos in the Rafale Photo Pool, the best i came across today:

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 19 Aug 2012 23:55

What will be the breakup of single seater and twin seater Rafales ordered for the IAF ?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 22 Aug 2012 10:56

http://idrw.org/?p=13548#more-13548

Russia hopes India will refloat MMRCA tender

Sour grapes or a case of

Oh No!!!???

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Aug 2012 11:20

I suspect if that were ever to happen and MMRCA gets retendered for some reason or the other , US will drop in JSF for the next race and will be game set match for them.

This should be good enough reason for French to agree to Indian demands for Price and TOT.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 22 Aug 2012 11:43

^^^
Well. I do not think we have the time to waste. Already behind schedule in most things defence.

Hope fully this statement doing the rounds will accelerate the process of Raffy acquisition.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 Aug 2012 08:04

$10bn Rafale deal not final yet: German leader

NEW DELHI: While not making any noise about India's decision to prefer the French Rafale fighter over Eurofighter Typhoon, Germany is still trying to negotiate with India for the over $10 billion medium-range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. Germany is one of the key nations behind the European consortium which has designed the Typhoon.

The deputy chief of the ruling CDU-led coalition's parliamentary committee in Bundestag (lower house of Parliament) for foreign and defence affairs, Andreas Schockenhoff, told TOI on Wednesday that the last word had not yet been heard on the MMRCA deal.

India and France are currently having "exclusive" talks over pricing and other issues for the 126-aircraft deal and the defence ministry maintains that there is no question of reviewing the decision to enter into negotiations with Rafale manufacturer Dassault Aviation.

"There have been discussions between German and Indian officials and I can say that this is not a closed book yet,'' said Schockenoff, a close aide of Chancellor Angela Merkel, who is in India on a four-day visit.

"As far as I know, there is not yet a commercial order committed by the Indian government. The Eurofighter manufacturers are working again on the offer and this is a subject of negotiations between the European consortium and the Indian government,'' he added.

Schockenhoff met senior defence ministry officials, including minister of state for defence Pallam Raju, but said he had not raised the issue during his visit to India.

Interestingly, the comments by Schockenhoff come close on the heels of remarks by a Russian government spokesperson who said India was likely to refloat the tender as negotiations between India and France had failed. Russia's MiG-35 fighter jet too was part of the bid but lost in the preliminary stages.

Unlike as in the UK, another country associated with the Eurofighter where the reaction to India's decision bordered on the wild, the initial reaction in Germany was restrained. The government did say though that exclusive talks don't necessarily lead to actual sale.

The Eurofighter was said to have lost out to Rafale because of cost and expensive maintenance issues and also because of Rafale's similarities to the French Mirage 2000 fighters being used by the IAF.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 23 Aug 2012 12:28

Vishnu wrote:Hi folks ... I flew the Rafale a few weeks back in Istres in France. Major article coming up on our website http://www.ndtv.com preceding the documentaries which will air later. Some incredible video and a few images as well ... Stay tuned !

Your favourite DDM,

Vishnu Som
Editor Documentaries and Special Projects
NDTV

Vishnu,

Do you do any other work except flying these beauties ?

And you are paid for it ?

Regards
K

Any vacancies in your department ??????

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Aug 2012 12:29

some of the business channels also keep sending folks to italy and germany to ride luxury cars and comments on them for TV shows.
must be compliments of the car cos.

I am yet to hear a strong -ve feedback from any of them

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Aug 2012 18:26

The only problem with Rafale airframe is its tight space for expansion/integration of more LRUs, especially when we think of the future.. for example: retractable pods and extended aesa arrays, etc.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Aug 2012 23:22

SaiK wrote:The only problem with Rafale airframe is its tight space for expansion/integration of more LRUs, especially when we think of the future.. for example: retractable pods and extended aesa arrays, etc.

why do you want a retractable probe (not pods)? The fixed works fine and is a feature for reducing maintenance.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 24 Aug 2012 02:26

Austin wrote:I suspect if that were ever to happen and MMRCA gets retendered for some reason or the other , US will drop in JSF for the next race and will be game set match for them.

This should be good enough reason for French to agree to Indian demands for Price and TOT.

Careful, you are gonna give good Philip a heart attack with this kind of talk!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Aug 2012 02:35

aniket wrote:What will be the breakup of single seater and twin seater Rafales ordered for the IAF ?

86 single seaters and 40 twin seaters.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Aug 2012 08:24

Kartik,stocking up on Aspirin just in case!

AWST says that despite extra orders,developmental issues with the JSF still remain.It is unlikely that even if we sign on now,deliveries can be made to us before 2020+ as there are other allies in the Q.In any case there is no way that a $125+m aircraft can be afforded by the IAF to replace one costing at least 25% less.The sooner the Rafale deal is wrapped up the better,as the prognosis of the lifespan of this UPA-2 seems to have taken a downward trend. A cut-off date should be gvien to them after which it will be open season with the other contestants,"Euro-farter" leading the pack.

But we seem to have a long-term problem.Issues with Russia reg. the quality of Flanker engines persist and have now been openly articulated to prod the Russians into action.We are woefully totally dependent upon firang beauties (GE,Salyut,RR/Turbomeca, whatever) whether from east or west and our LCA cannot perform to full specs with its underpowered engine and thus for all practical purposes,at this moment in time when it has yet to be commissioned, a "turkey".It is way past time for the setting up of a massive new dedicated engine R&D facility to design and develop every kind of engine required right from helos to turboprops and advanced jet fighters.Those manufacturers and nations willing to collaborate with us should be welcomed,those who don't should get their products ostracised.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 25 Aug 2012 22:28

August 12, 2012: Moscow - Zhukovsky