Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 30 Sep 2012 12:59

The IAF has stated a total of 42 squadrons by the year 2022. We are currently inducting Su30 MKIs and will induct Rafales & LCAs in the near future. This is how the target will be met

15 Su30 MKI
4 Mig29
3 Mirage
7 Jaguar
7 Rafale
6 Tejas

The no of Rafale & Tejas are unknown and could change depending on the rates of production. The Mirage & Jaguar nos are based on the modernisation plans which are going on. While the Su30 & Mig29 are likely to take care of air to air missions.

gkriish · Post by **gkriish** » 30 Sep 2012 17:47

nakul wrote:The IAF has stated a total of 42 squadrons by the year 2022. We are currently inducting Su30 MKIs and will induct Rafales & LCAs in the near future. This is how the target will be met

15 Su30 MKI
4 Mig29
3 Mirage
7 Jaguar
7 Rafale
6 Tejas

The no of Rafale & Tejas are unknown and could change depending on the rates of production. The Mirage & Jaguar nos are based on the modernisation plans which are going on. While the Su30 & Mig29 are likely to take care of air to air missions.

what about FGFA and AMCA..................

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 30 Sep 2012 18:10

The last FGFA prototype is scheduled to arrive in 2019. The changes incurred in the program will take time to manifest. Assuming delays, we should be able to see FGFA in the post 2022 timeframe. If this happens, the FGFA might prevent additional orders of the Rafale.

AMCA is not expected before 2025 as the various kinds of criteria that IAF uses will take a while to satisfy. In the meanwhile, the 5th gen responsibilities would be shouldered by the FGFA.

The total order for Tejas for the IAF is around 200. I suspect that it will end up being at least 11 squadrons. So if someone wants to game a post 2022 IAF fleet, this should be considered.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 30 Sep 2012 21:27

From the dated article on Su-30 in the specific discussion thread,

Fly By Wire system is quadruple redundant and includes electro-hydraulic actuators. The system is also able to compensate for the driver too violent reaction

Wonder if HAL is building the MKI from raw material phase, why can't they build electro-hydraulic actuators for Dhruv? to reduce further weight

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 Sep 2012 23:15

nakul wrote:The last FGFA prototype is scheduled to arrive in 2019. The changes incurred in the program will take time to manifest. Assuming delays, we should be able to see FGFA in the post 2022 timeframe. If this happens, the FGFA might prevent additional orders of the Rafale.

AMCA is not expected before 2025 as the various kinds of criteria that IAF uses will take a while to satisfy. In the meanwhile, the 5th gen responsibilities would be shouldered by the FGFA.

The total order for Tejas for the IAF is around 200. I suspect that it will end up being at least 11 squadrons. So if someone wants to game a post 2022 IAF fleet, this should be considered.

FGFA will come around 2019 and may be around 2025 would be in production but what about PAKFA, which will be going for serial production by 2015 and possibly ready for induction by 2019-20. so we can assume that atleast 1-2 sqd of PAKFA by 2022.

And i have a doubt about 7 sqd of Rafale by 2022, there is article few months back about Rafale production plan by HAL,and as per that article it might pass 2022 to get all the 126(7 sqd.).

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 30 Sep 2012 23:23

nash wrote:
nakul wrote:The last FGFA prototype is scheduled to arrive in 2019. The changes incurred in the program will take time to manifest. Assuming delays, we should be able to see FGFA in the post 2022 timeframe. If this happens, the FGFA might prevent additional orders of the Rafale.

AMCA is not expected before 2025 as the various kinds of criteria that IAF uses will take a while to satisfy. In the meanwhile, the 5th gen responsibilities would be shouldered by the FGFA.

The total order for Tejas for the IAF is around 200. I suspect that it will end up being at least 11 squadrons. So if someone wants to game a post 2022 IAF fleet, this should be considered.
FGFA will come around 2019 and may be around 2025 would be in production but what about PAKFA, which will be going for serial production by 2015 and possibly ready for induction by 2019-20. so we can assume that atleast 1-2 sqd of PAKFA by 2022.

And i have a doubt about 7 sqd of Rafale by 2022, there is article few months back about Rafale production plan by HAL,and as per that article it might pass 2022 to get all the 126(7 sqd.).

IAF has been consistent about acquiring FGFA since the PAK FA does not meet its requirements. They may acquire PAK FA only if there is a real threat or the FGFA gets delayed. I think the IAF might instead order more Rafales directly from France to fill the numbers. The current plan is to acquire 18 from France and build the rest in India. This might change to 36 which would help India till the FGFA is ready. Moreover Rafale & FGFA would have similar costs but difference between capability. The Tejas is the wildcard here. I suspect the nos would be decided by its rate of production more than anything else.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Oct 2012 07:11

nakul wrote:
IAF has been consistent about acquiring FGFA since the PAK FA does not meet its requirements. They may acquire PAK FA only if there is a real threat or the FGFA gets delayed. I think the IAF might instead order more Rafales directly from France to fill the numbers. The current plan is to acquire 18 from France and build the rest in India. This might change to 36 which would help India till the FGFA is ready. Moreover Rafale & FGFA would have similar costs but difference between capability. The Tejas is the wildcard here. I suspect the nos would be decided by its rate of production more than anything else.

I think they will acquire PAKFA, 1 or 2 sqd, just like they did in case of Su-30. First they started using Su-30K then gradually moved to MKI.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2012 09:42

yes having a squadron of PAKFA will be good to familiarize ground and air crew well before the FPGA version is produced.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 01 Oct 2012 10:20

in what way are the MKIs and the FGFAs and the MIG 21 Bisons very different from the Russian versions?

Why are they so much better or so much more suited to the IAF?

I hear things like; Indian+french+israeli avionics...but no elaboration on this point?

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 01 Oct 2012 12:09

nakul wrote:mahadev ji, It is the cost that we have to pay to get uber tech. But it does not mean that it is worth every money. For eg, the first Su 30 came for about $40 million. Then the later prices zoomed to $100 million. The Israelis overpriced their Phalcons. It is simple economics at work. Since demand exceeds supply, the price goes up.

Look at the JSF. After winning the bid to supply planes to the US, its priced zoomed from 65 million $ to 120+ million $ in the absence of any competition. It is still climbing. The only solution is to develop our own solutions. I don't think US$140 million for Rafale & US$40 million for upgrading Mirages is cheap but due to the absence of any home grown tech, we have to buy them.

True.

My point is, that it is not a good idea to go swadeshi every time a videshi deal comes up. Not at all.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 01 Oct 2012 13:14

I think they will acquire PAKFA, 1 or 2 sqd, just like they did in case of Su-30. First they started using Su-30K then gradually moved to MKI.

I think they will return it like they did with the Su 30K returned to Belarus. That is why I did not include. it. Moreover, I believe the Tejas Mk 1 could meet a similar fate. Preparation for Mk II. That is why it might become difficult to meet the target of 42 squadrons since Rafale production at HAL might be slow. Even Tejas rate is unknown at this point. The only way they could meet it is by having 2 production lines. This would allow quicker induction (in the case of Rafale) or make way for exports / naval version (for Tejas) quickly.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 01 Oct 2012 13:21

mahadevbhu wrote:in what way are the MKIs and the FGFAs and the MIG 21 Bisons very different from the Russian versions?

Why are they so much better or so much more suited to the IAF?

I hear things like; Indian+french+israeli avionics...but no elaboration on this point?

Russia has a plethora of specialist aircrafts like Su 34, Mig 31 & strategic bombers for various roles. They have a well developed air defence as well. Due to this, they can afford to use the aircraft solely for other roles. In India's case, we need a plane that can become Tu 22M, Su 34, & Su 35 in one frame. So modifications are made to existing designs to make them suitable for other roles. Moreover, we lack the kinds of numbers they have got which makes it imperative to have better quality. I think Russia's main threat is internal and can afford to selectively improve aircrafts since Siberia is unlikely to be invaded by anyone. Hence, they concentrate on technolgies rather than products for their MIC. The real deterrence is done by their superb submarines which they spend their money on.

Think of Russia like an old guy who just does things to keep up with the trends while India is a young guy in a rough neighborhood keeping its stuff sharp to meet real threats.

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Oct 2012 13:33

vasu raya wrote:From the dated article on Su-30 in the specific discussion thread,

Fly By Wire system is quadruple redundant and includes electro-hydraulic actuators. The system is also able to compensate for the driver too violent reaction
Wonder if HAL is building the MKI from raw material phase, why can't they build electro-hydraulic actuators for Dhruv? to reduce further weight

Because manufacturer from Raw Material just means advanced screw driver technology and does not mean actual manufacturer from Base material billets.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 02 Oct 2012 02:57

^^^

There was a report of Titanium sponge being extracted and perhaps is being fed into the local manufacturing of MKI, so manufacturing of electro-hydraulic actuators may not be the real bottleneck

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 02 Oct 2012 10:52

^^^

folks...get over this swadeshi fetish please.

Or stop using iphones and android phones and any phones at all. All are made in China.

1. Vasudheva kutumbakam.
2. Best tech is necessary to defend borders. Get it from wherever you can. Try to optimize and cut price and all..but by all means, get the best tech possible.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 02 Oct 2012 11:14

^^^ Did those who made the "best tech" say the same? Does the future you're planning for last a day, month, year, decade or century?

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 02 Oct 2012 18:15

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-p ... 7/1010886/

IAF planning to phase out MiG-27 combat planes by 2017

Concerned over recurring problems in MiG-27 combat aircraft engines, Indian Air Force is planning to phase out these Russian-origin planes by 2017.

IAF operates about 80 (four squadrons) of these aircraft in its fleet and due to the recurring problems in their engines, it had to ground all of them after a crash about two years ago.

"We are planning to phase out the MiG-27s, of which around 80 are still in service, by the year 2017," senior IAF officials said.

IAF has deployed two squadrons each of the aircraft in Jodhpur in Rajasthan and Kalaikunda in West Bengal at present.

About two years, a study was conducted to check the problems in the engines of the aircraft and it was found that the R-29s engines have developed some defect which was very difficult to be corrected, they said.

After the report, IAF took a considered decision about retiring these aircraft from operational service in a phased manner, the officials said.

"The first to be phased out would be the two squadrons based in Kalaikunda and then by 2017, the remaining two deployed in Jodhpur would also be on their way out of the force," they said.

The squadrons based in Jodhpur had undergone upgrades at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited recently and that is why they have more life left in them, the officials said.

IAF is also planning to phase out the crash-prone MiG-21 combat aircraft around the same timeframe. MiG-23 fighter and bomber aircraft which were inducted in the 1980s have already been phased out.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Oct 2012 18:36

If the Mig-27's are phased out, I don't think the Jag's can do the close air support role like the Mig-27. Looks IAF has left CAS to helicopters.

Wish we had something like an A-10/Su-25 for this role.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2012 19:03

if the role of the Mig27 was to use their big cannon in strafing runs and rocket attacks, perhaps the Jags armed with CBU 105 can do it in more discreet albeit more expensive fashion?

as Septimus would say, we do need atleast 10,000 CBU units to get some momentum going but budget cannot afford - they will be reserved to prevent PLA/PA heavy armour breakout moves and will NOT be available to "line units" for dal roti day to day use => Sudarshan cannot be a one-off project, it needs smaller laser and IIR guided weapons(use nag seeker and SW to id types of vehicles), and hopefully a desi CBU (call it DBU) to deliver small submunitions cheaply.

I know its not as sexy as Agni4 high tech shakina stuff, but no less vital cog in the wheel.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2012 19:06

it needs to be noticeably better in all respects than the cheen J21 and its heavier future birader though. because we can be sure PAF will get J21 and PLAAF will deploy J21+J22 in a roughly 3:1 ratio to what we can, given the disparity in budgets.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 02 Oct 2012 19:12

Well, IAF seems to be insisting more on getting the LCA Mk1 to be ready for AG weapons than for AA ones. So, maybe they want to replace some of the Mig27 with LCA Mk1 for CAS role.

member_23858 · Post by **member_23858** » 02 Oct 2012 20:14

Gurneesh wrote:Well, IAF seems to be insisting more on getting the LCA Mk1 to be ready for AG weapons than for AA ones. So, maybe they want to replace some of the Mig27 with LCA Mk1 for CAS role.

would absolutely love it!!!! But wont the payload be little less to qualify it as a MIG 27 replacement??

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 02 Oct 2012 20:20

IAF has already ordered 40 Tejas Mk 1. It would not harm to increase that to 80 for 1:1 Mig 27 replacement until Mk II is online. They should have at least 2 parallel production lines to meet the 250+ orders for Tejas. Tejas + AEW&C + Astra FTW

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Oct 2012 20:29

The days of strafing are over. Time to move all ops to over 15000 feet "for times, they are a changin"...

200 Rudra's and LCH is lot of organic firepower and CAS support. 22/44 Apache would help a lot as well. There are also 80 Mi17 and about 80 going to be soon refurbed mi-8s as well. Need armed expendable drones for more of this type of work. Equally potent with Helina kinda missiles and quick assessment possible to ensure target met its destiny.. 200 odd armed drones would fill that role nicely.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 02 Oct 2012 20:30

Cybaru wrote:The days of strafing are over. Time to move all ops to over 15000 feet "for times, they are a changin"...

At those heights, a dumb bomb can travel for 39 km when launched at Mach 1.5.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Oct 2012 20:52

they are talking about phasing by 2017

which is not new once they decided not to upgrade the remaining

still love the beast

member_23858 · Post by **member_23858** » 02 Oct 2012 21:01

Cybaru wrote:The days of strafing are over. Time to move all ops to over 15000 feet "for times, they are a changin"...

To complete your quote...

Come senators, Congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't block at the doorway
Don't block up the hall

For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it's ragin'

It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Oct 2012 21:05

Thanks martinbaker!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2012 21:43

Launching small bombs some dumb some smarter from high alt at nearly mach1 is the idea of sdb. Small in size but a plane could cart 16 of these with little bee wings to carry them 40km away. Ideal for glonass guided attack on a camp or airbase with multiple small targets in same box. I dont know how they engage moving objects or targets of opportunity though...seems like lgb from 15000ft still needed for that role?

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Oct 2012 22:03

I dont know how they engage moving objects or targets of opportunity though

That is the new fangled sensor fused muntions. They can do it. In fact, even bofors artillery now comes witha sensor fused munition round (one round packs 2 of them), to do just that.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Oct 2012 22:06

IAF to upgrade Israeli made UAV fleet

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Oct 2012 22:32

There are only 80 Mig-27s left? That is down from 120+. IAF's squadron strength has already taken quite a hit it seems and the situation wasn't rosy to begin with. The LCA can't come soon enough. Someone said on the earlier page that the IAF should order 40 more LCA mk1s. That is not a bad idea. Apart from strafing with that huge gun, the LCA mk1 can do whatever the Mig-27 can.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Oct 2012 23:12

the pilots will miss the little kick of the guns

just like they love the large caliber rockets over other ammo

you feel the weapon leaving and its power

well thats advancing with time s

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 02 Oct 2012 23:13

More orders for Mk1 would have made sense if the production line was up and running. We are still waiting for LSP8 to fly let alone the SP series. So, by the time 40 SP are built we Mk2 production might have started (hopefully). If not then they can build more Mk1's till Mk2 production starts. But first HAL needs to get it's act right.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Oct 2012 02:40

How difficult it is to fit koraput manufactured AL31fp engines onto Mig27s? They don't carry FADEC.

/kidding.. let us get the more powerful LCA Mk2, and future versions of it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Oct 2012 09:23

There was a nice Avionic Upgrade proposed or done on Mig-27 by HAL using OA framework and AL-31 was tested on Mig-27 frame which was proven for 20 % less fuel consumption and longer range with higher thrust.

Pity we didnt pursue the upgrade for Mig-27 would be sad to see these swing wing bird go.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Oct 2012 09:48

most likely the material condition of these airframes is not good, belonging to the older 'disposable' school of soviet thought.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 03 Oct 2012 10:39

LCA unlike MiG 27 is not optimised for CAS - consequently would need smarter munitions. Hence Sudarshan and Paveway kits would be needed for effective engagement

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 03 Oct 2012 10:55

^^

what all is required to make it better for CAS? How to make it as good as a Mig 27 , A 10 warthog, Jaguar?

1. Guns.
2. Wings...but that cannot be changed.

What else?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Oct 2012 11:11

there is no way a low wingloading unstable by design delta wing fighter can be as stable as the Mig27(wing fwd) or the warthog. and it cannot carry their huge cannons either.
so it cannot strafe with the same ease of use and hitting power to be sure.

instead of beating the goat to make it a horse, find a way using cheap submunitions to get the same effect with better safety. even a 10km launch puts it outside bubble of any manpad, mobile AA guns or SRSAM accompanying the targets.

for attacks on large static targets, which is better
4 x Jags going lo-lo-lo overflying the target and release 16 x 1000lb bombs
4 x Tejas releasing 32 x DSDB (glonass & iir) winged kits from 40km away from different heights, direction and speed before escaping in pairs.