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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2012 18:51 
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I like the way Russia handled the Soviet fall and the way they kept their military as a deterrent to external interventions. IMHO, the above article is a continuation of Russia's attempt to maintain military superiority after they were left with old Soviet hardware. They concentrated their attention on different parts of their arsenals in different time frames to maximise deterrence.

1990s -- Nuclear weapons
2000s -- Nuclear subs
2010s -- Naval ships
2020s -- Aircraft carriers
2030s -- Strategic Bombers?


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PostPosted: 29 Sep 2012 21:12 
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In a way they are targeting the developing equilibrium we are trying to establish by allowing China break our stranglehold on Malacca straits they plan to up the game between us and China where another round of arms distribution can happen with they becoming part of the supplier group until a new equilibrium is sought for, as long as they (all arms suppliers) can make money with our arms imports the concepts of adequate deterrence and conventional military balance will be a mirage for us

the recent report on defence spending by BRICS nations should have included the import content, since % of GDP alone may not count


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 10:05 
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Is the submarine , partially seen, at this location on google earth the Arihant. ONe can make out the conning tower & sail.

Coordinates : +17° 42' 38.20", +83° 16' 4.80

Link : http://maps.google.co.in/maps?q=17.710612,+83.268001&num=1&t=h&vpsrc=0&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=17.71052,83.268455&spn=0.001393,0.002642&z=19&iwloc=A


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 10:48 
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i think you got it right. the arihant is facing nose down looking at taper in tail at top end of pic.
seems to be dockside moveable "shamiana" erected to protect the puppy from prying eyes. seems to be tied dockside for harbour trials.

the big permanent building just south of it I believe is the covered shipyard where she was built. no doubt the next puppy is being built inside.

almost our entire eastern fleet tied up to the south, incl trenton, multiple supply ships, atleast 3 rajputs, 3 submarines and so on...


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 11:18 
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I dont get this one - if a local product meets the mark, why should there be a multi-vendor dharmic tendering process for what one arm of GOI can supply the other? truly raja harischandra we are.

Defence Ministry scraps Coast Guard tender for helicopters
Press Trust of India



New Delhi: Coast Guard's plan to boost its maritime surveillance capabilities will have to wait as the Defence Ministry has scrapped its tender to procure 16 light helicopters. Only two companies - Indian Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), offering its ALH Dhruv, and European Eurocopter with its twin-engine Panther MB - were in the race for the deal expected to be worth over Rs 1,000 crore.
The tender, issued in July 2011, was cancelled by the Defence Ministry after it was found that the helicopter offered by Eurocopter was not compliant with one of the request for proposal requirements, Defence Ministry officials said. With only ALH Dhruv left in the race, the ministry could not go ahead as single-vendor tenders are not allowed by the Defence Procurement Procedure of the ministry, they said. :oops:

The procurement was part of Coast Guard's efforts to enhance its capabilities to tackle terrorism and other threats emanating from sea and to prevent any 26/11-type attacks. The Coast Guard is now planning to issue a fresh tender with new and reviewed specifications in the first quarter of 2013.

In the aftermath of 26/11 attacks, government had cleared several proposals to enhance Coast Guard's aerial surveillance capabilities and had sanctioned acquisition of both fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. However, tenders for procuring six maritime surveillance aircraft and dry-leasing 16 helicopters from foreign companies have been scrapped due to one reason or the other in the last four years.

Coast Guard wanted the helicopters to be equipped with surveillance devices to carry out search and rescue roles in coastal areas.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 11:39 
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@ ^^ I am confused too. Aren't purchases made through FMS route single vendor tenders?


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 11:52 
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We are willing to extend fms courtesy to a foreign country but not our own stepsons.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 18:12 
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Singha wrote:
We are willing to extend fms courtesy to a foreign country but not our own stepsons.


Stepsons is the correct word here :evil:


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 18:14 
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Quote:
We are willing to extend fms courtesy to a foreign country but not our own stepsons.


Saar, it is not a question of courtesy but kharcha pani onlee. They also have wife & kids to care of no?


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 21:05 
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Septimus P. wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga_class_cruiser

The Ticonderoga also carries heck of a Ad system with the ability to deploy 122 Ad missile mix of SM2/3, ESSM etc.

SM-6/SM-3 are something we could consider, the long range ability of these missiles is pretty good, it would prevent our future carrier groups from waves of enemy air attacks.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-161.html

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-174.html



US navy is planning to deactivate around 4 Ticonderoga class cruisers in 2013. The 4 ships were commissioned in 1991-1994. All these four ships are the MK-41 Variants. In fact US might not decommission all four and may retain 2 of them.

If we can get US to sell 2 or all 4 of these ships, it would be a great buy. I really cant guess how much US will charge for these behemoths. If all 4 of them are refurbished and upgraded they would be best warships in Indian Navy.

It would be a great purchase to pull off.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 22:20 
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Usa has close to 50 ddg51 ships and dont need the older ticos at all imo. At one time they were churning out 4 burkes a year. Assuming 3 burke per carrier group they could use 15 for five groups and still have 35 left over to pound people randomly.

My hope and prayer is some faithful like taiwan get 2 and philipines 2 with radar upg and sm2 ram and sm6 combo.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 22:54 
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Taiwan could procure and handle 2-4 Tico's. They already have 4 Kidds. I doubt philipines can afford that.


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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2012 23:51 
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It is probably being considered as commercial purchase and all commercial purchase are mandated to be global tenders to get the best deal. Dharmic but self hurting in this case, although HAL would learn a lesson or two if it looses competition on cost or performance.

I think it is both good and bad!


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 00:03 
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Rounding up the thoughts around the Vikramaditya boilers episode, IN needs a long term plan for nuclear propulsion units for its fleet, one may view this as going green instead of using fossil fuels and can help reduce the oil deficit

With Malacca straits, the A&N island chain really doesn't have power sources other than through shipped oil, which is where given the islands long coast line, the opportunity of Offshore wind turbines can be first exploited, a technical proposal would be to use Vertical axis wind turbines using turbines derived from 12MW KMGT(Kaveri Marine Gas turbine), while composite wind blades would have to be developed, that kind of expertise exists with DRDO

IN can take the initiative because they have the need, the access to technology, funds and hopefully the research culture, a private company can be roped in as well with a view of commercialising on a large scale, while ISRO can be asked to provide with surface wind speed measuring sensors on some of its Sats


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 00:07 
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We are going to develop larger reactors for the SSBNs. The current Arihant reactor might be unsuitable for larger boats. In this case, BARC could do well to consider carriers as well so that we could benefit from shared research costs. They might want to standardise on 65000 ton carrier class initially and scale them as the need arises. This could also benefit the nuke sub programme.


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 06:26 
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True state of Indian shipbuilding.

Navy's SOS to Centre....."Our ship-building industry is sinking".TOI 1/10/12.(Print edition)

Former CNS Adm.Suresh Mehta says that our yards are "incapable of meeting our rapidly growing defence needs.."

The IN has prepared a document saying that while foreign builders take "250,000 man hrs to build a 3500t vessel,here it takes 1.8 million man hours to build a Godavari class vessel.."!

"At least 100SSUs (Std. Ship Units) are required in the next 15 years,while we can only build 40 ,total combined capacity of the three shipyards while the CG's requirements is adding to demand",Adm Mehta.

A senior naval official: "China the US and several EU nations have modular ship building projects in which multiple yards construct modules of a large vessel like carriers etc., for final integration and testing at one shipyard,while we are yet to think about such a project as our yards do not have enough waterfronts and a competent design technology."

The IN has about 150 ships and another 75 with the CG.Despite indigenous shipbuilding accounting for nearly "60%" of the IN's annual acquisition budget of 9000 crores ,the country's shipyards continue to remain below intl. standard .In Bombay and Cochin,further dev. is impossible because of lack of space.This doubles building time up to 4 times than that elsewhere worldwide.

At a coordination mtg. at Madras recently,of builders and industrialists,B.Kannan a senior MOD official admitted that the country "lagged behind China or even smaller nations in the development of naval infrastructure,war vessels and submarines."


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 09:04 
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^ I suppose we should follow Russia's example with Vikram right?


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 09:32 
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yesterday before i knew the Ulyanovsk had been scrapped in mid 90s I started google earth and went looking for nikolayev in ukraine. just take a look yourself at the infra the big dogs built up...miles and miles of factory sheds and docks and piers along a rambling bay .... similar and even more scary probably in virginia, kola peninsula, vladivostok and now few places in Cheen as well.
in contrast our shipyards look like village level kirana shops in scale.

we need to walk the talk on the infra front before aspiring even to dominate the IOR, let alone poke our nose in east asia.


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 10:33 
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Is it an insurmountable problem if given a small port, a barge, a large crane, a workshop to able to manufacture sub modules, a rail head to transport steel to the workshop, 20 such low intensity manufacturing places along the two coasts, financing is done through private sector involvement

the barges are used to deliver the sub modules to the major ports where assembly is completed like they were doing with the SSBN program

railways maybe a hindrance and one of these days a gas turbine loco may have to be presented by the IN to them reminding them of the freight capacity augmentation needed


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 11:03 
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Singha wrote:
we need to walk the talk on the infra front before aspiring even to dominate the IOR, let alone poke our nose in east asia.


well said :)
we have to be practical and take a realistic approach. My understanding is that for most of the issue we have the potential to overcome them, but our approach is that because we have been following some old policies so we should continue with them even if it is not suitable in the current scenario.
For ex, related to IAC or Subs, why can't we allow the private sector to work on them, if they are able to build them as per the Navy's requirement then fine else there loss.

Make it open / transparent and let the fittest survive at least for the defence sector since the country;s interest is paramount


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 12:43 
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adityadange wrote:

Thanks vina for your post. What I want to say is if the hull is made 1 inch thicker it will add substantial weight to the ship. This may sound silly but I was under impression that warships hulls are made up of thick metal plates to protect from misile/torpedo attack (similar as of a tank although not as thick as a tank). And thicker the hull, better the protection. Also if the explosion makes bigger hole then chances are more to sink as more water gets inside the ship.



Warships are made from thinner steel plates than commercial ships. This is to reduce weight and make the ship go faster.


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2012 15:22 
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We have Klub missiles on our submarines. The new missiles extend the sea denial capabilities of the IN. Here is more info about them

Warhead: 200 kg
Range: 220 km
Speed: Subsonic; Mach 2+ for the last 20 km

More info
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/513/s3m54e11fk.jpg
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9329/s3m54e25hg.jpg


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2012 06:46 
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http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 634997.cms

Navy shortlists six big consultants for phase2 of karwar....9000 acre campus to come up housing 18000 people.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2012 20:33 
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Image

Fantastico!
Quote:
initially described as an embarrassing failure, appear to have actually been a success, while propulsion problems developed by the aircraft carrier are not nearly as serious as reported in the media.


Now the question:

1. Was that intentionally done
- a. chankian
- b. failed counter strategies
- c. hiding the faults, and correcting a poser.. and now, they think we can accept with defects, else they will chew us more $$$$.


however, we have other lessons here:
Quote:
Traditional asbestos lining was not used at the request of Indian specialists and replacement material developed slight deformation when the boilers were run at full power, causing some firebricks to fall out. The Indian side has now agreed to the use of asbestos cardboard.


DRDO can work on some better tech, where it satisfies both asbestos advantage and firebricks put together feature where the disadvantages of using asbest
:?:

the basis of these question, is unquestionably unreliable news media and nations which are on taking advantage of Indic-ness.
Quote:
Apart from the boilers, defects were also detected in some other equipment, such as refrigerators, nitrogen generators and compressors sourced from German, British, Polish and Indian suppliers who had been picked by the Indian side.


please note the quality of non-Indian components and equipment.. especially aam and DDM must know that all firang and white is not gold.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2012 21:20 
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Quote:
Now the question:

1. Was that intentionally done
- a. chankian
- b. failed counter strategies
- c. hiding the faults, and correcting a poser.. and now, they think we can accept with defects, else they will chew us more $$$$.


There was nothing wrong reported about the trials. If you notice, the trials continued even after the boiler problem was detected. The aircraft carrier could work at normal speeds and trials that do not involve max speed were successfully carried out. It shows the resilience of the carrier that even after such a breakdown it could continue to work for a month at normal speeds.


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 11:37 
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Quote:
Traditional asbestos lining was not used at the request of Indian specialists and replacement material developed slight deformation when the boilers were run at full power, causing some firebricks to fall out. The Indian side has now agreed to the use of asbestos cardboard.


Once again, it is India who is making the sacrifice! Instead of enforcing a penalty, we are diluting the standards :x

IN sailors are going to be at the receiving end due to our "magnanimous" behaviour


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 12:56 
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Singha wrote:
yesterday before i knew the Ulyanovsk had been scrapped in mid 90s I started google earth and went looking for nikolayev in ukraine. just take a look yourself at the infra the big dogs built up...miles and miles of factory sheds and docks and piers along a rambling bay .... similar and even more scary probably in virginia, kola peninsula, vladivostok and now few places in Cheen as well.
in contrast our shipyards look like village level kirana shops in scale.

we need to walk the talk on the infra front before aspiring even to dominate the IOR, let alone poke our nose in east asia.


I never have been able to understand how fixed asset infrastructure works, and fixed asset investment spending works.

China is able to make humongous amount of road rail etc. and India is not. China is deep in doo doo resulting from huge fixed asset outlays but India is not.

So how can we have all of that factory sheds and the like...how do we justify all that infra spending, and do some calculations of ROI to make them happen?

How does anyone, in their right minds, decide to build a road or a network tower and recover their moneis?

Someone? Anyone?


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 14:30 
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There is generally nothing wrong as far as asbestos is concerned in terms of performance. It is the environmental aspect and on health grounds that asbestos is not preferred anymore. If asbestos fibers are inhaled, then it can lead to lung infections and even TB in the long run.

This is a major concern for the environmentalist lobby, when we take in old ships for scrapping at our ship breaking yards.
Hence the Euros have banned the use of asbestos in such applications as insulation material, in brake linings for industrial brakes etc. But the performance of asbestos in all these applications is not bad.
Currently also in India for a lot of industrial applications where asbestos was being used before, non-asbestos based material is now being preferred.

The Indian Navy would have asked for asbestos not be used on the environmental and health grounds only, but now after encountering this problem , have reversed course and accepted the asbestos in the interest of expediting the delivery.

Wow a milestone....101 posts after 12 years of semi lurk mode on the forum.


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 16:29 
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One news item today said that the carrier would be ready only by "next fall",though there is a 3-4 month extra time period for delivery.Right now no one is talking of any penalties until the vessel is commissioned.Another report says that the speed op the vessel even after the boiler problems were detected was 27.5kts which is pretty good,considering that the max speed is supposed to be 29/30kts.A real pity about the added delay,but the time before it is handed over must be made use of in testing the other eqpt. aboard which does not require high speed operations.It will also give our naval aviators extra time to hone their flying skills on the MIG-29Ks being inducted.

With our desi IAC-1 also being delayed by 3-4 years,the IN must think creatively as to how to leapfrog the long process of designing and building the larger IAC-2 at home.We should seriously think of acquiring the second new QE carrier being built which the RN cannot afford,which may even be finished before IAC-1 is commissioned! Though it might cost a bomb,the time saved (4-5 yrs. at least) will be invaluable and would ceratainly give a quantum leap in the IN's capabilities before 2020.

PS:Good news about the 3rd Talwar batch-2,Trikand-dock trials being completed n Russia in this report perhaps posted before.Good piece on the Brahmos.
http://indrus.in/articles/2012/09/19/th ... 17755.html


Last edited by Philip on 03 Oct 2012 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 16:32 
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Quote:
Another report says that the speed op the vessel even after the boiler problems were detected was 27.5kts which is pretty good,considering that the max speed is supposed to be 29/30kts.A real pity about the added delay,but the time before it is handed over must be made use of in testing the other eqpt. aboard which does not require high speed operations.It will also give our naval aviators extra time to hone their flying skills on the MIG-29Ks being inducted.

Love the way the glass becomes half full when it comes to foreign maal but becomes half empty when it is the turn of Desi maal


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 16:39 
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The glass is always "half full" if you take the attitude that "the vulture is a patient bird"!
With the clause ,"during the vulture's lifetime!" Too long a dose of "patience" makes one impotent,


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 16:54 
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Philip wrote:
The glass is always "half full" if you take the attitude that "the vulture is a patient bird"!
With the clause ,"during the vulture's lifetime!" Too long a dose of "patience" makes one impotent,


Changing suppliers from Roos to UK is like falling from oil into the fire.


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 17:20 
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India wants Gorshkov in 6 months; says Further Delay will invite Penalty

Quote:
We will tell the Russians to seriously step up the workforce at the Sevmash shipyard for the refit-repair of Vikramaditya. A leeway of three to four months is provided in the contract after the December delivery date… Beyond that, penalty clauses and liquidity damages could kick in,” said a source.


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PostPosted: 03 Oct 2012 19:37 
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at last a strong stand by our side , we should start training our pilots & crew on board the Vikramaditya for coping with the time lost due to this incident.

even if simple sea trial is going on one need to familiarize with the equipment which take a lot of time , by sending the actual, to be deployed crew we can get a fully functional force when it enter service with our navy.


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2012 01:46 
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INS Viraat heads to a 5-month long refit, setback for Navy

Quote:
R S Chauhan
It looks as if India's plan to have three carrier battle groups, centred around INS Viraat, INS Vikramaditya and an indigenously built aircraft carrier in Cochin shipyard, has suffered a huge setback, reports RS Chauhan

The Indian Navy will be without an operational aircraft carrier for over four months between November and March 2013 as the lone and ageing INS Viraat heads for a longer refit to Cochin very soon, top sources in the naval headquarters say.

The naval HQ has told the defence ministry that the delay in delivery of INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) from Russia has made it imperative for the Navy to prolong the lifespan of India's lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat.

INS Viraat, formerly HMS Hermes, a British ship, is over half a century old and has undergone several upgrades and life extensions, as India has been unable to either build its own carrier or get the Russians to deliver one for the past eight years.

With the latest schedule for a longer refit to be carried out at the Cochin Shipyard, INS Viraat will be out of action till late March-early April, the sources said.


Meanwhile, India is likely to seek clarity from Russia about the revised delivery schedule of INS Vikramaditya this week since media reports have been contradictory.

The Hindu newspaper, reporting from Moscow, said the sea trials were not a failure as initially reported. Its Moscow reporter said: 'The controversial sea trials of the INS Vikramaditya in Russia, initially described as an embarrassing failure, appear to have actually been a success, while propulsion problems developed by the aircraft carrier are not nearly as serious as reported in the media.'

'After the ship returned to the Sevmash shipyard a week ago, the Indian Navy's overseeing team, who closely monitored the sea trials, came to the conclusion that the ship had overall done extremely well and the programme of tests had been largely fulfilled.

'The results of the trials were analysed and the remaining work was detailed in a protocol signed by Vice Admiral Nadella Niranjan Kumar, controller, warship production and acquisition (CWPA).

'The main conclusion from the trials is that the INS Vikramaditya has stood the test as a full-fledged highly capable aircraft carrier converted from the former hybrid missile-cum-aviation cruiser Admiral Gorshkov. The ship displayed excellent seaworthiness and manoeuvrability and performed flawlessly during aircraft takeoff and landing. Its sophisticated radio-electronic, navigation and other systems demonstrated high efficiency and reliability,' the newspaper reported.

The Times of India, on the other hand, said: 'The delivery of the already much-delayed Vikramaditya was to take place on December 9 as per the re-revised timeline, but crippling engine-boiler malfunctions during the carrier's recent sea trials have put paid to the plan... and now, it's certain the 44,570-ton Vikramaditya will not be ready for induction anytime before end-2013 at the earliest.'

Against this backdrop, it looks as if India's plan to have three carrier battle groups, centred around INS Viraat, INS Vikramaditya and an indigenously built aircraft carrier in Cochin shipyard, has suffered a huge setback following these developments.



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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2012 05:14 
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Good news that the problems weren't as bad as first reported and that the trials,esp. of aircraft went off very well.With the Viraat also going in for another 4+ month refit ,it underscores the inability of the MOD to think creatively and missing opportunities.The RN due to massive budget cuts have scrapped their Harriers and carrier (Ark Royal,much younger than the Viraat when acquired) decades early.These were available for a song and could've been picked up even as an amphib carrier .It would've given the IN service at least upto 2025 when IAC 1 and 2 would've arrived by then.The ship may be still available from the man who bought it for scrap value!


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2012 05:49 
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X-Post:
SaiK wrote:
luckily, the masala dosa making machine from desh did not fail yet.


Join the Indian Navy - Eat Dosa/Chappati at Sea!

Too bad we won't see that on any recruitment posters anytime soon. Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2012 06:08 
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Brando wrote:
X-Post:
SaiK wrote:
luckily, the masala dosa making machine from desh did not fail yet.


Join the Indian Navy - Eat Dosa/Chappati at Sea!

Too bad we won't see that on any recruitment posters anytime soon. Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?

eating homely food makes you feel comfortable. us soldiers morale went up when fast food opened up in major bases in iraq.


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2012 06:16 
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Quote:
What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?


oh boy

waiting for Shiv


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2012 07:40 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 49123
Location: Gaius Bangaloricus - leader of 39th legion
by that yardstick why does US put in effort into sourcing food from mainland and even setting up McD and burger king in "green zones" and "firebases"?
just source excellent quality local rice, dry fruit and mutton and eat like the "rest of the world in that part of the world" does.


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