Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 07 Oct 2012 17:47

An interesting account of the Hazratbal episode:

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main21.asp ... d.asp&id=1

The terrorists did have to leave the mosque; unfortunately alive. Would Indira Gandhi have handled it differently? I think so.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Oct 2012 19:23

while its true that Army did surround the mosque, it did not storm it as the safety of the relic ' the prophets hair' could not be guaranteed...

ur assertion that post BS 'gov established a principle... etc' is not true !!

i hope all those who were holed up there were killed but this incident proved to be major morale booster for the terrorists...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Oct 2012 19:40

manjgu wrote:while its true that Army did surround the mosque, it did not storm it as the safety of the relic ' the prophets hair' could not be guaranteed... ur assertion that post BS 'gov established a principle... etc' is not true !!

i hope all those who were holed up there were killed but this incident proved to be major morale booster for the terrorists...

The assertion needs to be worded differently.

The GOI did not order the IA to storm the mosque after it would have weighed IA's assessment that the security of holy relic could not be guaranteed.

In case of BS, no one knows what the assessment of the IA was to the GOI. Whatever it was, it would have catered to all that happened. The GOI of the day deemed inaction as more dangerous than the collateral damage (PLUS the impact on Sikh citizens and its long term consequences). Again, it is not the Army which takes these decisions unilaterally.

It is easy to vilify the Army and men in uniform because they are the most obvious and visible face of the Republic of Indian. And ultimate guardians of its integrity.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Oct 2012 20:32

absolutely... army just followed the orders of the civilian govt !! the onus totally rests on GOI.

Rohit even in BS army did not guarantee safety of relics, sanctum santorum , structure given the nature of fortifications, weaponary inside the golden temple.. but i guess that Sikhs dont constitute a vote bank was also a reason which prompted action in addition to other factors. I am not sure if a mosque would have been stormed the way Golden temple was .... chicken Biryanii was sent to terrorists holed up inside the masjid..it can happen only in India.

GOI has established no principle till date.. it says zero tolerance to terrorism and yet there is infinite tolerance etc. GOI over the years have proved to be totally incompetent, spineless etc.

GOI creates mess all over and expects Army to clean it up and also take the blame !!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Oct 2012 20:45

Here are two accounts apart from W.Habibulla

http://policediaries.blogspot.in/2008/0 ... siege.html

http://arunshourie.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... -happened/

Army was prepared to storm provided orders were given. The idea that religious places could be used with impunity had been blown in the winds and militants/terrorists were not sure of their survival unless their political masters salvaged. Army , as always, obeys if command is given. The option to storm was also on the table. So I think the assertion, as it, stands.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 07 Oct 2012 23:48

A mix of competition & engagement ahead

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With 65% of India under 35 years of age, memories of the bloody skirmishes on the disputed Himalayan borders between Chinese Peoples' Liberation Army (PLA) and Indian Army fifty years ago in autumn of 1962 have almost faded for an average Indian. For even the middle-aged India, the war, which
related stories

left more than 1382 Indian soldiers killed, thousands wounded, missing or captured by PLA and led to a comprehensive humiliating defeat in November, 1962, is perhaps better understood through late director Chetan Anand's 1964 war epic "Haqeeqat (truth)."

Replete with mellifluous songs, the movie filmed in Ladakh with support of Indian Defence Ministry is full of patriotic ethos and "do or die" valour of Indian troops against the deceitful marauding Chinese who abuse the "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai" slogan of the early Nehruvian days.

The brutal truth, however, is hidden far away from the eyes of an average Indian and in the innards of Indian defence establishment in South Block in the form of two top secret copies of Lieutenant General Henderson Brooks - Brigadier PS Bhagat report on the '62 debacle. Kept away inside a series of lockers in the Director General Military Operations (DGMO) and in a vault in the Defence Secretary's office, the report, typed in full scape paper, is never to be revealed. The Brooks-Bhagat report tears into the Indian Army leadership during the 1962 war, singling out then defence minister VK Krishna Menon favourite Tezpur based IV Corps Commander Brij Mohan Kaul, who virtually ran the war from his sick-bed from what is now 5, Motilal Nehru Marg, and Major General AS Pathania, Commander of the much decorated Fourth Infantry Division, who ordered the troop withdrawal from then called North-East Frontier Agency (NEFA) out of fear of the invading PLA.

Laced with quotes from victorious Generals from the west and quotes from leading war strategists of the past, the Brooks-Bhagat report castigates the Indian Army brass for total failure of command and control, with a sick Kaul being replaced by Lt General Harbaksh Singh and then staging a comeback again in midst of a month long war, and the then Intelligence Bureau Chief BN Mullick for failure to read the enemy moves. While the Army brass does not want its humiliation to come out, the then Indian political leadership has not been spared in a 40-page top secret note written on the Brooks-Bhagat report by then Army Chief JN Chaudhuri, who replaced a largely ineffective General PN Thapar a day after Zhou Enlai government offered a humiliating ceasefire to Indian charge d' affairs P K Bannerjee in Peking on November 19, 1962.
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rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Oct 2012 00:17

How come Mr. Shishir Gupta always comes out of no where to pen articles on anniversaries of events like Parakram and 1962 war and each times defends the ruling dispensation at the time?

In his article about Op. Parakram, he insinuated that it was the Services which did not want to go to war and here he says that Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report remains classified because Army wants to save it face? I mean, who is he trying to fvck with here? There are n-number of articles and books by ex-IA officers which have lambasted IA's top leadership for acting like the way it did.

And the blame for 1962 follies has been placed at the feet of Services, Menon and IB Chief. How quaint?

It seems, there are political hit-men at all levels and of all shades...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Oct 2012 00:22

a reason why journalists have almost no credibility

absolute turds

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 08 Oct 2012 10:40

http://epaper.indianexpress.com/61078/I ... 2#page/1/2
Posting from the link, a farticle by Manu Pubby published by IE.
'Army HQ nod( read Gen. V. K. Singh) to foreign firm under scanner'.
The deal concerns emergency purchase of ammunition for ZU-23 AA guns that was initiated by the Gen. It is said the the Bulgarian firm( the supplier) is not an OEM. Also, Russies have complained about it.
Gurus, any thought on this?
Regards.
Rajendra

habal · Post by **habal** » 08 Oct 2012 12:28

The main issue is Congress stormed GT with utmost malice, which arose from the narrow mind of IG. It did not do the same in Hazratbal because IG was obviously impressed with Nehru's narrative (in private of course) of how his grandfather was the last Mughal Kotwal of Delhi, with muslim skull cap and a big beard .. a ghazi. He had escaped from Delhi with his life and family after 1857 and adopted a surname which no other Kashmiri family had at that time. He lived the life as a sleeper with the hope that his narrative would be revived in due course.

Indira Gandhi consciously or unconsciously began to consider the Sikhs as the same baaghi's who used to trouble the Mughals. And each and every denizen of North India knows how the Mughals treated the Sikh 'baaghi's that they captured, like Banda Singh Bahadur, Guru Tegh Bahadur etc. IG considered herself an extension of this 'glorious Mughal empire'. IG took care not to have a Manekshaw like headstrong character in charge of the operation thus introduced compliant 'Ji huzoor' type officers of which are aplenty obviously. Specific instructions could indeed have been given to destroy holy scriptures of the Sikhs, since in mind of Congress, it was an attack against the Sikh religion. Also specific orders to desecrete the Harmandir Sahib etc is very possible.

Fast forward to the present to look at the consequence today, I am of the firm opinion that those Sikh baaghis of 84 had a definite role to play in India's resurgence in the 80s and 90s. The Congress was not as surefooted as they are today, and they did not raise prices of petrol and diesel INTENTIONALLY TO HURT THE COMMON MAN. This they did in fear of public anger, last time they reduced prices of petrol was when ANNA HAZARE went on a fast. When a corrupt institution faces no challenges it can indulge in corruption unabashed as is happening now. We are today as a nation paying a price because of the lack of rebellion in this country, we are too compliant and the Congress is back to treating the common man as rear droppings.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Oct 2012 12:36

Suppiah wrote:"Hindutva" RAW behind Brar attack..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 718213.cms

Interestingly, yet another case ...the steps are like this.

1. Stalinist rapist goons and their yellow media as well as fake intellectuals generate the hate propaganda, whip up anti-hindu hatred and provide the language and words.
2. EJs, Jehadi pigs, and now Khalistani terrorists promptly pick up the language and start using it
3. It becomes the truth so 'eminent historians' can turn it into history

One very good comment from this article...

It was Indira Gandhi who ensured the raise of Bhindranwale to check the popularity of Aakalis and when he went out of control of her, she wanted him destroyed. You cannot create a Frankenstein and expect to control it. So, please do not salute the greatest dictator India ever had - Indira Gandhi. Had the true culprits of 1984 riots been punished, 99% of Sikhs would have forgiven the operation Bluestar. It is a shame on the Indian Judiciary that even after such a mass genocide against the Sikhs, not even one person got punished.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 08 Oct 2012 15:55

And if Sikhs had condemned Bhindrenwala, the riots would never have happened, etc.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Oct 2012 15:59

Sanjaykumar, there is no excuse for 1984, why did ordinary people in Delhi SUffer to murderous mobs lead by the tytlers of this world.?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Oct 2012 21:10

Well , Its true . There is no excuse for 1984. It remains a blackest spot in Indian Contemporary history. Being in College I knew many sad stories in secondary or tertiery level cities in My native state with exception of one. It was celebration day and we were having our day off being it a festive holiday . It was when we learnt of assassination of IG and were truly shocked. Somehow , it puzzled us to know that Doordarshan and Akaashwani were telling the identity of assasins. Being in the Management committee for all hostels we immediately held a meeting of all college students. The threat ( some rumours of sikhs being massacred had already emerged by 3 o clock.) to local sikh populace seemed clear. So all of us marched up through the main streets of town and Gurudwara and areas where sikhs were generally resident with students office bearers and college teachers leading the peace march. We reached District Magistrate office by 5 Pm. Town remained peaceful and not a single case had been reported.. Unfortunately , by nightfall , the extent of violence in other places had become evident and we had to form watch groups to keep vigil in the town. It did help that both DM and SP as well as a young ASP IPS probationer were from Tamilnadu.
Other cities in my state had horror stories except this one. I still feel that when administration fail citizens should play a proactive role to protect their fellow citizens.

But the same city forgot how it remained calm during 1984 and had one of the worst case of riots years later. Same city and its police had another infamy to its name later.Unfortunate as wound don't heal so easily, black mark don't get washed away unless you happen to be totally black like Congis. It is better not to cause them in the first place.

1984 had no excuse and so the riots in Gujarat

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Oct 2012 21:27

chaanakya wrote: 1984 had no excuse and so the riots in Gujarat

Wow! This definitely is a Chanikyan ==.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Oct 2012 22:10

RamaY wrote:
chaanakya wrote: 1984 had no excuse and so the riots in Gujarat
Wow! This definitely is a Chanikyan ==.

Well RamaY I was talking about 1969 Gujarat Riots. Which riots did you think of .....

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 08 Oct 2012 22:36

chaanakya wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Err......just what is wrong in recognising Santji Bhindanawale sahib as a great Sikh?
Err.....he was a third rate goon.

He was actually a stooge of Cong(I)
He was arrested by none other than Kiran Bedi then DGP of Delhi but was allowed to proceed to Amritsar. He turned rouge on IG a la Osama on Unkil.

He was responsible for the death IGP a patriotic Sikh who went to worship and was gunned down by his comrade in arms ex IA Major Gen...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Oct 2012 22:51

pentaiah wrote:
He was actually a stooge of Cong(I)
He was arrested by none other than Kiran Bedi then DGP of Delhi but was allowed to proceed to Amritsar. He turned rouge on IG a la Osama on Unkil.

He was responsible for the death IGP a patriotic Sikh who went to worship and was gunned down by his comrade in arms ex IA Major Gen...

Congoons are third rate goons any way.
If you are talking about Atwal, he was DIGP of Jalandhar Range. and the Ex major gen was Shahbeg Singh, the Traitor, discharged dishonorably from IA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Oct 2012 23:00

habal wrote:<SNIP> IG took care not to have a Manekshaw like headstrong character in charge of the operation thus introduced compliant 'Ji huzoor' type officers of which are aplenty obviously. Specific instructions could indeed have been given to destroy holy scriptures of the Sikhs, since in mind of Congress, it was an attack against the Sikh religion. Also specific orders to desecrete the Harmandir Sahib etc is very possible. <SNIP>

You have the right to certain opinion and view point - no matter how outlandish is the same.

But above is pure unadulterated BS which has no proof whatsoever. You cannot denigrate the men in Olive Green by simply throwing accusations at them - just because that is how you feel.

Your statement means that not only the top leadership of IA at the time - Vaidya, Sundarji and Brar were 'YES MEN' but each and every soldier that went inside was a YES MEN...after all, it is these soldiers and officers which actually fought and died. It is they who would have desecrated the Sanctum Sanctorum by following the orders of their superiors...and each therefore, was a YES MEN.

Please direct this 'righteous anger' some where else. This board has seen enough of outlandish CT on BS.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Oct 2012 23:50

chaanakya wrote: Well RamaY I was talking about 1969 Gujarat Riots. Which riots did you think of .....

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Oct 2012 00:02

Sanjaykumar, there is no excuse for 1984, why did ordinary people in Delhi SUffer to murderous mobs lead by the tytlers of this world.?

Well I have heard that the rioters actually went to protect Sikhs from retribution but some were killed by the Sikhs on orders of their granthis. It is entirely possible, especially in a multiverse that some posters inhabit.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 09 Oct 2012 01:00

chaanakya wrote: the Ex major gen was Shahbeg Singh, the Traitor, discharged dishonorably from IA.

Could you give any sources of how he was dishonorably discharged ?

I found this old BR page (2003) where people discussed it...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0&start=40

I am quoting a poster named Mandeep..

I would enjoin my fellow Indians not to take my clansman, Sandeep, seriously. He tends to let his emotions get the better of his judgement.

Gen Shabeg Singh was a distinguished soldier with an unorthodox bent of mind who excelled in the role of a commander of irregular troops prior to and during the 1971 War.

Yes, there were allegations of irregularities (to say the least) levelled against him but they were never proved.

He was not tried by a GCM but dismissed from service through the use of Section 311 of the Constitution. The underlying reason for his dismissal had nothing to do with the Kumaon Farm case whatever it is. Actually he fell prey to narrow inter-regimental jealousies. Two succeeding Army Chiefs happened to be Colonels of different GR Regts leading to a somewhat distorted profile of the Gurkha Brigade officers in matters of promotions and postings. This was the perception of the rest of the officer corps.Gen Shabeg Singh being an 11th GR officer was seen as a favourite of the outgoing Chief, Gen Bewoor. This caused problems with officers from other Regts. They carried tales to the then Chief, Gen Raina who was notorious for being susceptibile to that sort of thing. The end result is known to everyone.

It must be recognised that Shabeg influenced Bhindranwala very heavily in the matter of fortifying the Golden Temple and making a last stand there. He had a strong death wish and wanted to go out in 'a blaze of glory' as he mistakenly percieved it. The plan of luring the Indian Army into a killing zone in front of the Akal Takhat was his alone.

How will posterity treat him ? He will forever remain one of history's grey figures. On one side a true Indian, a patriot and a fearless captain of war. The flip side reveals a man out to redeem himself, out to regain lost honour who unfortunately chose the wrong path. For all of this he was to the end a brave man albeit with the wrong set of values.

p.s Niazi's statement is a lot of nonsense ! It was he in fact who tried to subvert Sikh officers like Shabeg and Gen JS Bhullar with his stories of how Sikhs had been done in.

Maybe he turned into a traitor, but who turned him into one should also be debated.

Wiki says that he was sacked a day before his retirement.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Oct 2012 01:20

Gurneesh wrote:<SNIP>Maybe he turned into a traitor, but who turned him into one should also be debated.

Wiki says that he was sacked a day before his retirement.

May be he turned into a traitor? You still have doubts about it? Thanks for giving a peek into your world view on the subject. As I said earlier, if you see everything with religion colored glasses, this is the kind of nonsense you will get.

Oh! BTW, he was dismissed because of irregularities in the CSD under him....please do read up on this before you bring some anti-Sikh angle to it. And mind you, many are dismissed from Service because of misdemeanor.....how many have you heard of taking up arms against the nation?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Oct 2012 02:52

Err....what do people have against Shabheg Singh being a legitimate Sikh hero?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Oct 2012 03:02

...Errrr, Heroes do not commit irregularities. Suggest reading Niazi's autobiography on Shahbeg's discussions on Khalistan being taken POW and lodged in Kolkatta.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Oct 2012 03:44

Maybe my stylistic approach to argument is obtuse, but my posts are rarely meant to be taken literally.

I fear I am not clear although, hopefully, succinct enough. Ellipsis should be freely added to these posts.

Hope that is clear

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 09 Oct 2012 03:51

rohitvats wrote:
Gurneesh wrote:<SNIP>Maybe he turned into a traitor, but who turned him into one should also be debated.

Wiki says that he was sacked a day before his retirement.
May be he turned into a traitor? You still have doubts about it? Thanks for giving a peek into your world view on the subject. As I said earlier, if you see everything with religion colored glasses, this is the kind of nonsense you will get.

Oh! BTW, he was dismissed because of irregularities in the CSD under him....please do read up on this before you bring some anti-Sikh angle to it. And mind you, many are dismissed from Service because of misdemeanor.....how many have you heard of taking up arms against the nation?

Most of my post got lost in a misplaced quote. I have corrected it.

This same thing was discussed in 2003 right here on BRF. I have posted the link and also quoted the post of a poster that everyone seemed to give some weight to. I am not trying to bring any religious angle to it. Please do not assume that any view that does not conform with yours will be religiously biased. I had only responded to the "discharged dishonorably" comment of chaanakya, as I could not find any proof where it says that he was actually convicted by a court for any misdoings.

Paul wrote:...Errrr, Heroes do not commit irregularities. Suggest reading Niazi's autobiography on Shahbeg's discussions on Khalistan being taken POW and lodged in Kolkatta.

Again please refer to the link.

After reading the debate that happened back in 2003, this is my last post on this topic as nothing concrete will come out of discussing it.

But i suggest people to go back to that link and read what was written...

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 09 Oct 2012 04:37

Mountain corps under military examination

-Ankit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Oct 2012 07:17

^^^That is one confusing bit of news.

I very clearly remember IA asking for 2 x mountain divisions and a new Corps HQ for MSC. The article talks of the new Divisions raised in NR (71 and 56) as moving out of their present Corps HQs and coming under the control of a new MSC HQ. Honestly, this makes no sense to me nor does it justify the 65K crore tag arrived at for the new MSC.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 09 Oct 2012 07:32

sanjaykumar wrote:Err....what do people have against Shabheg Singh being a legitimate Sikh hero?

For he would be false hero.

In "Leadership in Asia", an out of print book, by F M Montgomery has clearest idea on this, that I have come across.

He categorizes this as a difference between a Leader and a mis-Leader. A Leader in its main function "leading", might succeed or fail due to N number of reasons, so it is slightly different from leadership failure, but a Leader takes (or strives to) the best course of action in the larger interest.

A mis-Leader sends its people to their doom, even when he has the option to not do so.

For example, Yasser Arafat kept on losing the opportunities to make peace would be a mis-Leader.

OTOH, Gerry Adams of IRA who brought it overground and which lead to disarming of it, would be considered a Leader.

I hope this clarifies.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 09 Oct 2012 08:52

I can see that Sikhs have conferred the title of shaheed on their leader and are in the process of building more memorials to his radiance. Obviously they are not repulsed by his alleged atrocities, his alleged defilement of the temple; and what is a little fornication anyway?

The Sant may not be the Hindu ideal of a leader, he certainly was not Gandhi or Vivekanda or Tagore or Tilak. But he is not supposed to be a Hindu idol, he is a Sikh icon. Hinduism and Sikhism are not the same.

A people are known by their heroes. Hindus need to learn to accept this. I make no value judgement on these issues. But of course if the intent is to be provocative-well it would be as stupid as roasting those pilgrims on that train in Gujarat. Probably not a good idea.

But then Santji did want to precipitate a backlash in the rest of India-he got what he wanted, his supporters can continue to wring the Delhi riots for cash.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Oct 2012 11:14

sanjaykumar wrote:Sanjaykumar, there is no excuse for 1984, why did ordinary people in Delhi SUffer to murderous mobs lead by the tytlers of this world.?

Well I have heard that the rioters actually went to protect Sikhs from retribution but some were killed by the Sikhs on orders of their granthis. It is entirely possible, especially in a multiverse that some posters inhabit.

OT but this is Paki logic, it is reidiculous.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 09 Oct 2012 12:23

Aditya_V wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Sanjaykumar, there is no excuse for 1984, why did ordinary people in Delhi SUffer to murderous mobs lead by the tytlers of this world.?

Well I have heard that the rioters actually went to protect Sikhs from retribution but some were killed by the Sikhs on orders of their granthis. It is entirely possible, especially in a multiverse that some posters inhabit.
OT but this is Paki logic, it is reidiculous.

We have heard lots rumors overheard by one from other and that guy heard from other and this rumors go on and on because it rumors. so please don't post it anything that you overheard from other.

Radicals got full supports from Pakis after Bluestar making mayhem in Punjab killing innocents.

i am working on article soon i will post it here.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Oct 2012 13:19

sanjaykumar wrote: A people are known by their heroes. Hindus need to learn to accept this. I make no value judgement on these issues. But of course if the intent is to be provocative-well it would be as stupid as roasting those pilgrims on that train in Gujarat. Probably not a good idea.

Do you think the Congress won the 80s in Punjab ? What we have in Punjab now are an ambivalent population, who will arise against India at the opportune moment. Areas in the border need to have more sympathy towards the Indic cause if we are to secure our future. Buddhism in Gandhara et al was what allowed the Islamists easy access into North West. India is caught in a narrow-minded culture of 'no-give' .. 'only-take' .. some times we have to give a bit with an eye to the future. A wholescale psychological reorientation is needed.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 09 Oct 2012 15:24

habal wrote:
Do you think the Congress won the 80s in Punjab ? What we have in Punjab now are an ambivalent population, who will arise against India at the opportune moment. Areas in the border need to have more sympathy towards the Indic cause if we are to secure our future. Buddhism in Gandhara et al was what allowed the Islamists easy access into North West. India is caught in a narrow-minded culture of 'no-give' .. 'only-take' .. some times we have to give a bit with an eye to the future. A wholescale psychological reorientation is needed.

You are wrong.where is in india people are not ambivalent but cant take everyone in one word look at NE India or Naxal .you plenty ambivalent people not all, so same here in Punjab. biggest problem in Punjab is no growth of basic infrastructure so as in other mention area, first you have to create infrastructure than jobs and industry.

Punjabi people is different from other mention area because in every war Punjabi (everyone) suffer.

and again don't doubt people living there because more than army they are the first line of defense and without there support you cant win every-times.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 09 Oct 2012 19:22

sarabpal.s wrote: Punjabi people is different from other mention area because in every war Punjabi (everyone) suffer.

For that it is the pakis who must be blamed while on the other side pakis feign religious harmony when convenient.

Please also understand that it could be similar to what is said from your side at many places along the border where ghuspethyas are launched from across the border and the world is silent on paki barbarism.

It is for people to overcome challenges in social manner too, for co-operation will make it possible to find out best ways and methods suited to deal with this from various places as observed and practiced.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 09 Oct 2012 21:07

rohitvats wrote:^^^That is one confusing bit of news.

I very clearly remember IA asking for 2 x mountain divisions and a new Corps HQ for MSC. The article talks of the new Divisions raised in NR (71 and 56) as moving out of their present Corps HQs and coming under the control of a new MSC HQ. Honestly, this makes no sense to me nor does it justify the 65K crore tag arrived at for the new MSC.

Looks very DDM-ish RV. Could it be that its a new plain vanila corps that Ms. Sharma is mistaking with MSC?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Oct 2012 21:32

Gurneesh wrote:
chaanakya wrote: the Ex major gen was Shahbeg Singh, the Traitor, discharged dishonorably from IA.
Could you give any sources of how he was dishonorably discharged ? .

Gurneesh I am sorry if I hurt your sentiments. Not my intention.

I am quoting someone who used the same phrase
http://www.tavleensingh.com/article_detail.php?aid=439

In that battle was another General who fought on the side of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale because of his bitterness against the way he was treated by the army and the government. General Shabeg Singh was helping Bhindranwale’s ragtag army build fortifications in the Golden Temple when I met him in the weeks just before Operation Blue Star. When I asked him why he was preparing to fight the very army that he had served with dedication for so many years, he said it was because false cases of corruption were made against him and he was dishonourably discharged a day before he was due to retire. As the man who helped create the ‘Mukti Bahini’ he was among the biggest heroes of the Bangladesh war, so the humiliation of his discharge was especially painful.

General Shabeg Singh went to court against the army and won his cases and it was to give thanks for this that he came to the Golden Temple and met Bhindranwale. He was killed by his side on June 6, 1984. What I can say with certainty is that he would not have been helping Bhindranwale had he been treated better by the army and the Ministry of Defence.

But that is not what I relied upon. There are discharge from army of two kinds.
1. Discharged under conditions not attracting dishonor. This could be medical unfitness for example
2. Discharged dishonorably charging of conduct unbecoming of An Officer and a Gentleman. Shahbeg was dismissed from Army which clearly indicates dishonorable discharge. That too without a Court Marshal one day before retirement.

It is another matter that Civil court might have decided otherwise. In the eyes of Army he would remain dishonorable discharged and a traitor who turned his guns against his fellows.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 10 Oct 2012 00:44

Do you think the Congress won the 80s in Punjab ? What we have in Punjab now are an ambivalent population, who will arise against India at the opportune moment. Areas in the border need to have more sympathy towards the Indic cause if we are to secure our future. Buddhism in Gandhara et al was what allowed the Islamists easy access into North West. India is caught in a narrow-minded culture of 'no-give' .. 'only-take' .. some times we have to give a bit with an eye to the future. A wholescale psychological reorientation is needed.

The Indic cause is not antithetical to the Sikh cause, but Sikhs are welcome to rise against it. They can begin by returning to West Panjab whence a good number of them immigrated. This will demonstrate to Hindus that they are a serious people with serious grievances instead of only wanting more. It will demonstrate that the Sikh-Muslim antagonism had a historical context and that two monotheisims are much more reconcilable than otherwise. There is also much cultural similarity to the two populations-both are 'religion and guns' cultures. This will also make Sikhs establish their maturity and demonstrate political sagacity in the eventual negotiations to follow.

With nukes pointed at Makkah, hordes of Muslim fanatics swooping into NW India is kind of passe.

Will · Post by **Will** » 10 Oct 2012 02:28

Isnt it time for the mods to step in here?