Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_20317 »

RajeshA wrote:Indus-Saraswati Evidence for Krishna

A steatite tablet (2600~1800 BCE) which was unearthed from Mohanjodaro in 1931, depicts a young boy uprooting two trees from which are emerging two human figures. It has been considered an interesting archaeological finding for fixing the date of Krishna.

Image

Dr. E.J.H. Mackay, who did the excavation at Mohanjodaro compares this image with the Yamalarjuna episode and Prof. V.S. Agrawal has also accepted this identification. In this image, the young boy depicted could very well be Krishna and two beings emerging out of the trees, the two cursed Gandharvas Nalkubera & Manigriva, who had turned into Arjuna trees due to a curse and were liberated by Krishna.

Mentioned in "Age of Bharata War" by G.C. Agarwala and K.L Verma page.81
____

Image

First Published in 1938
Author: Dr. E.J.H. Mackay
Further Excavations at Mohenjo-daro: Being an official account of archaeological excavations at Mohenjo-daro carried out by the Government of India between the years 1927 and 1931, 2 vols.

RajeshA ji,

I looked around on the net for this at the time the discussion was centered on MBH.

I am afraid I do not share your enthusiasm on the description of the depiction.

To me it seemed like one tree splitting apart with one person projected standing.
Besides the Arjuna leaves are somewhat elongated ones unlike the rather flat round ones being shown here.
Also the yogi sitting reminds us (head dress) of Pasupati seal.
Besides the animal in the middle of the tablet was not required if it was the Yamalarjuna episode. [Added Later : Animal should be beyond the split up trees]


RajeshA ji, I have developed a hunch that despite all the effort even the Indics have lost substantial parts of its mythology. I also suspect that foreigners even if well meaning and committed are not good equiped good enough to interpret for us what these things could have been.

The Book Age of the Bharat War is available online.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Wgnf ... et&f=false

Pages 6 and 81. The author, G.C. Agarwala ji is not committing to the view. He is only setting it forth as one possibility.

This however does not mean that SIVC was not familiar with Yoga, Yagnya and related ideas. The continuity of the SIVC in the Indic traditions cannot be denied.

JMHT.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

KLP Dubey wrote:I think a scholarly and psychological benefit would accrue if one could take the currently existing "PIE lexicon", erase all the fake PIE words, and use the Sanskrit words as the originals. This way, we can take advantage of the "busy work" done by the "useful idiots".

Furthermore, I suspect it will be *much easier* to keep adding new words that are corrupted from Sanskrit, than invent fake PIE reconstructions. That way, it will rapidly grow in size and overwhelm fake lexicons over the years.

This would be made easy if somebody had an Excel (or similar database-like) file of the "PIE lexicon". Copying and pasting from web documents could be too much of a pain.

I would be willing to erase the fake PIE words and create an "Indian Superlanguage" lexicon with the other cognate words listed as derivatives or "corruptions".

Do you see any intellectual flaw in the endeavor?
KLP Dubey ji,

that would be an excellent undertaking and is actually the logical conclusion of what you have explained to us earlier about the sound change "axioms" in Pratisakhyas.

In the creation of PIE, the PIE-Charlatans have had to use as many laws of sound change as there are words. I am sure with Sanskrit as Mother-Indo-European (MIE), the number of sound change laws necessary would be considerably less, and thus far more credible.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Ravi the description is really odd. My take is that one tree is defintely shown splitting with one human. The other figure seated on the left seems to be holding up an infant/small baby in his/her hands if you enlarge the picture.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

peter wrote:Image
What is not shown in the above image is

a) Where in the world does one find the ancestor of Hg R - P? In India, because all P* are in India, there is Q (M242) and R (M207) in India.

b) Where in the world does one find the diversity of R - Paragroup R*? In India of course. R* was found only in India's Northwest - among the Burusho, Kalash and some Pushtun. These have neither the marker R1 (M173) or R2 (M479).

c) Where in the world does one find the diversity of R1 - Paragroup R1*? In India of course.

d) Where in the world does one find the R2 (M479)? In India of course. Most of it is in India in the form of R2a Subclade.

e) Where in the world does one find the diversity of R2 - Paragroup R2*? More studies need to be done, but except for a few in Southern Europe, the cases were mostly found in Pakistan. In India there has not been any studies on this as yet.

Indian populations show a deep antiquity, especially with the ancestor of Hg R - P.

Now come the migrations:

1) First wave of migrations of R1 people in westward and northward directions. R1b is founded in West Asia around Levant and travels further to West Europe mixing with Hg I. Over Siberia R1 travels to the Americas over the Bering Straits. All this happened before the Last Glacial Maximum.

2) Second wave of migrations of R1a. Actually a small migration, and does not go very far westwards, mostly towards the Persian Gulf.

3) Third wave of migrations of R1a1. The migrants travel westwards through Iran into Armenia, Anatolia, Greece, etc. This happened shortly after the peak of the Last Glacial Maximum. These regions were anyway open for travel, though not particularly hospitable.

4) Fourth wave of migrations of R1a1a. The migrants travel northwards through Central Asia into Russia and Eastern Europe. They form the Slavs. Some of them travel further North forming the Scandinavians as they mix with I and R1b from previous migrations. This happened when the Last Glacial Maximum had almost completely ebbed away.

5) From Iran which had formed its own separate identity there were also waves northwards, which formed the Scythians, etc. who spread throughout Central Asia. This happened after the Late Glacial Maximum.

6) Then there was a period of extensive trade and cultural links between Indians and the civilizations around the Persian Gulf, e.g. the Sumerians.

7) Fifth wave of migrations from India to the West. These were the Mittanis, Kassites, etc. This happened after the mature phase of Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization.
Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

They say they were here from last 1,00,000 years

http://asi.nic.in/asi_monu_whs_rockart_bhimbetka.asp
The earliest endeavour here other than for mere run of the mill activities for survival is the engravings of small cup like depressions at the end of the Auditorium Rock Shelter, which is dated to nearly 100000 years.
more

http://asi.nic.in/asi_monu_whs_rockart_ ... detail.asp

***

There is mention of Shankha Script yet to be deciphered. Is Rajesh Rao reading this?
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

Worth a read
How to Stop Misinformation from Becoming Popular Belief in the Scientific American
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... lar-belief

Excerpts:
"You have to be careful when you correct misinformation that you don't inadvertently strengthen it"...

Correcting misinformation, however, isn't as simple as presenting people with true facts....

Another way to combat misinformation is to create a compelling narrative that incorporates the correct information, and focuses on the facts rather than dispelling myths—a technique called "de-biasing."
...
...
The most effective way to fight misinformation, ultimately, is to focus on people's behaviors, Lewandowsky says. Changing behaviors will foster new attitudes and beliefs.
More on debiasing:
http://www.desmogblog.com/science-debia ... ers-reason
1. Don’t lead with the wrong view you’re trying to debunk, but rather, with the correct view you want to instill.

2. Don’t overload people with information. Be “lean, mean, and easy to read.”

3. Don’t attack worldviews—either find more persuadable audiences, or defuse deeply seated ideological resistance through practices like framing and self-affirmation, which reduce defensiveness. “Self affirmation and framing aren’t about manipulating people,” write Cook and Lewandowsky, “They give the facts a fighting chance.”

4. Don’t leave someone with nothing to believe—if you want to unseat a myth, you’d better provide a better real explanation in its place. “When you debunk a myth, you create a gap in the person’s mind,” reads the Handbook. “To be effective, your debunking must fill the gap.”
On framing and affirmation
http://www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org/De ... ffect.html
First, the Worldview Backfire Effect is strongest among those already fixed in their views. You therefore stand a greater chance of correcting misinformation among those not as firmly decided about hot-button issues. This suggests that outreaches should be directed towards the undecided majority rather than the unswayable minority.

Second, messages can be presented in ways that reduce the usual psychological resistance. For example, when worldview-threatening messages are coupled with so-called self-affirmation, people become more balanced in considering pro and con information.

Self-affirmation can be achieved by asking people to write a few sentences about a time when they felt good about themselves because they acted on a value that was important to them. People then become more receptive to messages that otherwise might threaten their worldviews, compared to people who received no self-affirmation. Interestingly, the “self-affirmation effect” is strongest among those whose ideology was central to their sense of self-worth.

Another way in which information can be made more acceptable is by “framing” it in a way that is less threatening to a person’s worldview. For example, Republicans are far more likely to accept an otherwise identical charge as a “carbon offset” than as a “tax”, whereas the wording has little effect on Democrats or Independents—because their values are not challenged by the word “tax”.

Self-affirmation and framing aren’t about manipulating people. They give the facts a fighting chance.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ Since a lot of people have their identity vested in "Aryan-Dravidian" stuff, a frontal attack on it would be a mistaken strategy. So e.g., going by the guidelines from the articles cited above, I would frame the message something like:

New developments in genetics, archaelogy, ... are leading to an exciting new picture of the Indian past. They indicate that Indians are and were much more one people than previously suspected. ... (try not to mention the Aryan, Dravidian stuff at all). As per current science, humans originated in Africa, and populated the rest of the world from there. India was an important way stop in this process. Humans arrived in India, perhaps in two waves, some 70,000-50,000 years ago, and modern Indians are a result of the well-mixing of these two waves, neither of the two ancestral lineages exists any more. Instead there is are geographical gradients of these mixtures. There is no evidence of any significant arrivals in terms of numbers of people in India after 10,000 BC....

The above was thrown together in 5-10 minutes, certainly can be improved upon. Am trying to lead with the correct view, not the one I'm debunking, trying to be simple, not telling people directly "your dravidian/aryan stuff is nonsense", haven't done enough to fill the gap though. Trying to build a self-affirmation, that Indian identity is deeply rooted in reality (need "Indian" to win out over "Aryan/Dravidian").

Proof of course, will be in whether a message crafted thusly is effective or not.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

A-Gupta - exactly right
you may care to add - exciting new archeological finds across the sub-continent in the thar desert and in the gangetic basin confirm the existance of proto-indians through long periods of early history. both early homo sapiens hunter gatherers and then later advanced agro societies like the mysterious beaker people and the red and black ware pottery makers...
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5619
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RoyG »

New developments in genetics, archaelogy, ... are leading to an exciting new picture of the Indian past. They indicate that Indians are and were much more one people than previously suspected. ... (try not to mention the Aryan, Dravidian stuff at all). As per current science, humans originated in Africa, and populated the rest of the world from there. India was an important way stop in this process. Humans arrived in India, perhaps in two waves, some 70,000-50,000 years ago, and modern Indians are a result of the well-mixing of these two waves, neither of the two ancestral lineages exists any more. Instead there is are geographical gradients of these mixtures. There is no evidence of any significant arrivals in terms of numbers of people in India after 10,000 BC....
Simple yet effective. Excellent.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by vishvak »

It will be interesting how f(x) + f(y) => f could be used here

Example
From ANI, ASI
over period of time, Ancient changes to contemporary, changing and one way onlee
NI mix SI -> Indian
Last edited by vishvak on 17 Oct 2012 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Gupta ji, that's very nice, but once the explanation of the process and pre-history starts, unless the same narrative is not used, it can get dirty, and not sure if the same narrative in describing the ancient history can be maintained. And we can't just stop by issuing a small statement like the one you just shown about our history either. Filling in the details could be difficult without mentioning aryans etc.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by vishvak »

Mentioning aryan invasions and such theories over a period of time are perhaps good enough only for museums and such.
peter
BRFite
Posts: 1207
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 11:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by peter »

shiv wrote:
peter wrote: The question is how do we reconcile this image of R1a* w.r.t the assertion that it originated in India (From:

How difficult would it be to create a similar chart for R1a* originating in India?
I don't know what R1a* means. I don't think R1a* has its origins in India but I don't even know what it means.
I think R1a* is same as R1A* at least according to the figure under discussion.
shiv wrote: The dates in the chart don't fit in with what I have read and what has been posted here. The information in the chart contradicts what I have myself cross posted from at least 2 papers on here.
Would you be kind enough to put down the dates that you have read for various branches of R1{Aa}*?
peter
BRFite
Posts: 1207
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 11:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by peter »

RajeshA wrote:
peter wrote:Image
What is not shown in the above image is

a) Where in the world does one find the ancestor of Hg R - P? In India, because all P* are in India, there is Q (M242) and R (M207) in India.
[..]
Excellent! Can you please create a chart similar to the picture. This can be work in progress and refined more. Then we can overlay languages on it. And Shiv's geography of ice ages too.
johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by johneeG »

One needs to remember that of all the 'prophets' in the world, no one has ever really founded an entirely new culture from bottom to top. Instead, they have simply highjacked a culture and then subverted it to suit their agenda and claims.

Finding a whole new culture is not an easy task by any means. This is one more pointer towards a single ancient source for all cultures/religions/philosophies of the world, which were over a time highjacked and subverted by various powers and prophets to suit their agenda. So, if we trace the steps back, then the oldest least changed culture must be the mother culture of all the cultures/religions/philosophies of the world. That means, any culture/religion/philosophy that traces its origin from a specific event/time-period/founder/prophet can be ruled out.

So, the question is: Is there any ancient culture(that has preserved itself from change) and that does not trace its origins from a specific event/time-period/founder/prophet?

As far as I know, only Hinduism(Sanatana Dharma) has these features. Is there any other religion, philosophy or culture that has these features?
----
Is the following possible?
तमाखु(Tammaaku) -> तम्बाकु(Tambaaku) -> Tobacco?
(Sanskrit) (Indian Languages) (English)

According to Wiki:
The Spanish and Portuguese word tabaco is thought to have originated in Taino, the Arawakan language of the Caribbean. In Taino, it was said to refer either to a roll of tobacco leaves (according to Bartolomé de las Casas, 1552), or to the tabago, a kind of Y-shaped pipe for sniffing tobacco smoke (according to Oviedo; with the leaves themselves being referred to as cohiba).[8]

However, similar words in Spanish, Portuguese and Italian were commonly used from 1410 to define medicinal herbs, originating from the Arabic طبق tabbaq, a word reportedly dating to the 9th century, as the name of various herbs.[9]
Last edited by johneeG on 18 Oct 2012 11:05, edited 2 times in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

peter wrote: Would you be kind enough to put down the dates that you have read for various branches of R1{Aa}*?
I do not know what "R1{Aa}*" means. I have never heard or read about that.

I only have a date for R1A1a1 (M17) - 16,000 years North West India, and R1A1a7 (M 458) at 11,000 years in Poland. This comes from the Underhill paper linked below.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/ ... 9194a.html
Analysis of associated STR diversity profiles revealed that among the R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes the highest diversity is observed among populations of the Indus Valley yielding coalescent times above 14 KYA (thousands of years ago), whereas the R1a1a* diversity declines toward Europe where its maximum diversity and coalescent times of 11.2 KYA are observed in Poland, Slovakia and Crete. As islands such as Crete have been subject to multiple episodes of colonization from different source regions, it is not inconsistent that R1a1a* Td predates the date of its first colonization by the first farmers approximately 9 KYA.38 Also noteworthy is the drop in R1a1a* diversity away from the Indus Valley toward central Asia (Kyrgyzstan 5.6 KYA) and the Altai region (8.1 KYA) that marks the eastern boundary of significant R1a1a* spread (Figure 1, Supplementary Table S4.). In Europe, Poland also has the highest R1a1a7-M458 diversity, corresponding to approximately an 11 KYA coalescent time

The image is below. The inset at bottom left (in brown) gives the dates of R1A1a1 (M17)

Image
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

peter wrote: I think R1a* is same as R1A* at least according to the figure under discussion.
Let me indicate to you the limit of my current knowledge in this regard. Let me leave out the "*" because it indicates too many different branches from R1 most of which I have not read about and cannot claim any knowledge.

R1A was the haplogroup that was first found and thought to support AIT because of its frequency in India and central Asia and east Europe. Later R1A1a1 (also called M17) was found to be oldest (14,000 years) and most diverse in India that put a big spoke in the AIT, but did not kill it fully because it is present in Eastern Europe/central Asia as well

Still later R1A1a7 (also called M548) was shown to have possibly originated in Poland 11,000 years ago. M458 (or R1A1a7) is not only present in Poland but it is also present among the East Europe and Central Asian populations that also have R1A1A1 (or M17). But M458 (R1A1a7) is absent in India

What does this mean.

This means that M17 that originated in India 14,000 years ago reached Europe, but the 11,000 year old M458 (R1A1a7) did not reach India.

Even today there is a small area in Pontic steppe that is just like India because the people there have R1A1a1 M17 but not R1A1a7 M458. But it is younger in Pontic steppe as you can see in the map above. This can still mean that people migrated out of Pontic steppe. But maybe they went to Europe. Not to India. They must have come from India originally

I am not interested in the rest of R1. I am however interested in R2, which is found in India, but I will not comment unless I can comment with some authority by quoting suitable refs.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

I think I have spent to much time looking for firm proof, attestation etc. That has now been found. I am now going to move on to hypothesis and speculation. I would like to move further along the line suggested by Dubey, and that is to say that Sanskrit cognates in IE languages are corrupted, sound-changed versions of Sanskrit originals. I cannot willy nilly dismiss this hypothesis. It might be true, but the idea is to build up a series of arguments that support this and introduce elements that might falsify this hypothesis.

But let me start with the following idea:

Let me call R1A1a1 (M17) as the Sanskrit gene. Or let me call it Sanskrit gene 1 because I am expecting more than one gene that shows this link.

Wherever that gene is found, you find a language that is similar to Sanskrit or has a lot of cognates with Sanskrit. In some areas like Syria and Iran, new languages have superseded that, but evidence of Sanskrit exists.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

as far as I have found out, '*' simply means the rest subclades of a given clade, which have yet not been differentiated through a specific marker.

For example, R* refers to all subclades of R, except for the known subclades R1 and R2. So if one tests positive for R (M207) but does not test positive, R1 (M173) or R2 (M479), then one belongs to R*.

Similarly if one tests positive for R1 (M173) but does not test positive for the known subclades, either R1a (M420) or R1b (M343), then one belongs to R1*.

As more subclades of a particular Haplogroup become known, those who belonged to Hg* would then belong to a more specific subclade, rather than the undefined '*' group.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

peter wrote:Excellent! Can you please create a chart similar to the picture. This can be work in progress and refined more. Then we can overlay languages on it. And Shiv's geography of ice ages too.
peter ji,

I am still in the process of learning, and don't wish to commit to something through a graph just as yet.

For example, I am still not sure what the ANI-CEU split really means!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:Let me call R1A1a1 (M17) as the Sanskrit gene. Or let me call it Sanskrit gene 1 because I am expecting more than one gene that shows this link.

Wherever that gene is found, you find a language that is similar to Sanskrit or has a lot of cognates with Sanskrit. In some areas like Syria and Iran, new languages have superseded that, but evidence of Sanskrit exists.
shiv saar,

the question is whether languages like Celtic and Germanic were also a product of the dispersion of R1a1a1 (M417) or whether they have a different carrier gene! The R1b influence is somewhat unclear to me.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

In order to better understand Reich et al. (2009) paper, I was looking at his supplementary data and how he defined ANI and ASI components. It is shown in Table S6.

ASI
mtDNA - M18, M2, M25, M2a, M2b, M3, M3a, M4, M4a, M5, M5?, M5a, M6, R5, R6, R7, U2, U2c, M40, M31, M31a, M32, M35, I, M*
Y-Chromosome - H, H1, H2, L, O, O2, O3, R2, F, R

ANI
mtDNA - U3, U8, U7, M30, M39, B4, B5a, F, F1, F1a, F1c, R, R1, T, U, U10, U11, U9, Ua, Ub, W
Y-Chromosome - J, R1, C, K, K*, P, G

Undefined
mtDNA - L0, L2, L3, L3? {These are African matrilineal lines}
Y-Chromosome - B, E, E2, E3a, B2, D*


Since there is prominent reference to the Onge from the Andaman Islands, I'd like to present the findings here:

Onge
mtDNA - M31a (24/33 individuals), M32 (9/33)
Y-Chromosome - D* (10/10)

Great Andamanese
mtDNA - M31a (8/9), M32 (1/9)
Y-Chromosome - O (1/10), O2 (1/10), O3 (2/10), K* (2/10), P (4/10)

1) Neither mtDNA M31a nor M32 was found in any other individual from among the groups chosen by the researchers. So there is some split in the matrilineal line from the rest of the Indian population.

2) Nobody else among all those checked by the researchers for the paper have D* Y-Chromosome haplogroup, however other papers say that it is present among some tribes in the Indian Northeast.

3) So it needs to be really checked how far Onge should be considered as related to the ASI. Here is some background to D Y-Chromosome Haplogroup.

Some info on distribution of D Y-Chromosome Hyplogroup
D*
This paragroup is found with high frequency among Andaman Islanders and 0%-65% in Northeast India in adivasi tribes. D-M174(xD1-M15, D2-P37, D3a-P47) has been found in approximately 5% of Altayans. Kharkov et al. have found haplogroup D-M174(xD1-M15) in 6.3% (6/96) of a pool of samples of Southern Altaians from three different localities, particularly in Kulada (5/46 = 10.9%) and Kosh-Agach (1/7 = 14%), though they have not tested for any marker of the subclade D2 or D3. Kharkov et al. also have reported finding haplogroup DE-M1(xD-M174) Y-DNA in one Southern Altaian individual from Beshpeltir (1/43 = 2.3%).

D1 (M15)
Found frequently among Tibeto-Burman populations of Southwestern China (including approximately 23% of Qiang,approximately 12.5% of Tibetans, and approximately 9% of Yi) and Hmong–Mien speakers in Guangxi-Guizhou boundary regions with a moderate distribution throughout Central Asia, East Asia, and Southeast Asia (Vietnam).

D2 (M55)
Found with high frequency among Ainu, Japanese, and Ryukyuans.

D3a (P47)
Found with high frequency among Pumi,[2] Naxi,[2] and Tibetans,[2] with a moderate distribution in Central Asia.
Wikipedia Auntie says, like haplogroup C, D is believed to represent the Great Coastal Migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia and thence northward to populate East Asia. It is found today at high frequency among populations in Tibet, the Japanese Archipelago, and the Andaman Islands, though curiously not in India.

Anyway, one still has to see how Onge can then be related to ASI.

If one were to look at the Haplotree, one sees that the other Y-Chromosome lines in India (ANI and ASI patrilineal), are not descended from D.

Image

ANI :-? ASI
Furthermore, I don't understand why
1) R1 is ANI, but ancestor of R1, R is ASI!
2) R1 is ANI, but sibling of R1, R2 is ASI!
2) R is ASI, but ancestor of R, P is ANI!
3) P is ANI, and so are siblings K*, but sibling L is ASI!
4) P is ANI, and so are siblings K*, and so is parent K also ANI, but parent of K and, i.e. F is ASI.
5) In the matrilineal lines, some subclades of U and M are in ASI, while others are in ANI!

Anybody care to explain!
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: the question is whether languages like Celtic and Germanic were also a product of the dispersion of R1a1a1 (M417) or whether they have a different carrier gene! The R1b influence is somewhat unclear to me.
In my mind I have different picture, although I was not going to make this post just yet. This is not about conquest. The western mind imagines that conquest is necessary to spread language, but conquest often does not lead to language change.

It could be that a lot of wise mean learned in the Vedas attracted foreigners who came to India to learn and went back. Perhaps the Vedas went all the way to Eastern Europe with M17 and people learned from there.

If you look at what Socrates and his student Plato (500 BC and later) said - both had some inkling of the nature of reality and the soul as one would acquire from the Upanishads that predated them even by AIT Nazi dates. Socrates also argued strongly in favor of maintaining an oral tradition of learning at a time when Greeks has started writing a lot.

The word Deva was widespread in pre-Christian eastern Europe along the distribution of M17.

So there are some very old and very deep links. This was probably not about this vulgar horse and chariot conquest, but knowledge of the Universe, life and spirituality spread in a guru-shishya fashion. Vedic words were picked up and borrowed into local languages and gradually corrupted. Germany probably had very old Basque genes but the people were influenced by the Sanskrit learned men of the east (Europe).
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

On the Trail of the Great Coastal Migration (D Y-Chromosome Haplogroup)

D* as we may know is found among the Onge people of Andaman islands, and it is considered to represent the Great Coastal Migration along southern Asia.

So here are a few papers which look into this spread of ancient humans eastwards.

Annals of Human Biology 2007, Vol. 34, No. 5 , Pages 582-586

YAP insertion signature in South Asia
Authors: A. Chandrasekar¹, S. Y. Saheb¹, P. Gangopadyaya¹, S. Gangopadyaya¹, A. Mukherjee¹, D. Basu¹, G. R. Lakshmi¹, A. K. Sahani¹, B. Das¹, S. Battacharya¹, S. Kumar¹, D. Xaviour¹, D. Sun¹ and DrV. R. Rao¹

¹ Anthropological Survey of India, Kolkata-700 016, India

Abstract
A total of 2169 samples from 21 tribal populations from different regions of India were scanned for the Y-chromosome Alu polymorphism. This study reports, for the first time, high frequencies (8–65%) of Y Alu polymorphic (YAP) insertion in northeast Indian tribes. All seven Jarawa samples from the Andaman and Nicobar islands had the YAP insertion, in conformity with an earlier study of Andaman Islanders. One isolated case with haplotype E* was found in Dungri Bhill, a western Indian population, while YAP insertion in northeast India and Andaman tribes was found in association with haplotype D* (M168, M174). YAP insertion frequencies reported in the mainland Indian populations are negligible, according to previous studies. Genetic drift may be the causative factor for the variable frequency of the YAP insertion in the mainland populations, while the founder effect may have resulted in the highest incidence of haplotype D among the Andaman Islanders. The results of YAP insertion and the evidence of previous mtDNA studies indicate an early out of Africa migration to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. The findings of YAP insertion in northeast Indian tribes are very significant for understanding the evolutionary history of the region.


BMC Biology, Volume 6, No. 45, October 29, 2008

Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations
Authors: Hong Shi¹, Hua Zhong², Yi Peng¹, Yong-Li Dong³, Xue-Bin Qi¹, Feng Zhang⁴, Lu-Fang Liu⁵, Si-Jie Tan³, Runlin Z Ma², Chun-Jie Xiao³, R Spencer Wells⁶, Li Jin⁴ and Bing Su¹

¹ State Key Laboratory of Genetic Resources and Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology and Kunming Primate Research Centre, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, PR China
² Institute of Genetics and Developmental Biology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, PR China
³ Human Genetics Centre, Yunnan University, Kunming, PR China
⁴ State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai, PR China
⁵ Huaihua Medical College, Huaihua, Hunan, PR China
⁶ The Genographic Project, National Geographic Society, Washington, USA


Abstract
The phylogeography of the Y chromosome in Asia previously suggested that modern humans of African origin initially settled in mainland southern East Asia, and about 25,000–30,000 years ago, migrated northward, spreading throughout East Asia. However, the fragmented distribution of one East Asian specific Y chromosome lineage (D-M174), which is found at high frequencies only in Tibet, Japan and the Andaman Islands, is inconsistent with this scenario.

In this study, we collected more than 5,000 male samples from 73 East Asian populations and reconstructed the phylogeography of the D-M174 lineage. Our results suggest that D-M174 represents an extremely ancient lineage of modern humans in East Asia, and a deep divergence was observed between northern and southern populations.

We proposed that D-M174 has a southern origin and its northward expansion occurred about 60,000 years ago, predating the northward migration of other major East Asian lineages. The Neolithic expansion of Han culture and the last glacial maximum are likely the key factors leading to the current relic distribution of D-M174 in East Asia. The Tibetan and Japanese populations are the admixture of two ancient populations represented by two major East Asian specific Y chromosome lineages, the O and D haplogroups.
_____________

Well actually since the ancient D migration moved through coastal India, one cannot really say, it is East Asia specific Y chromosome lineage. Perhaps just to prove that, it is important that the population of Onge threatened by extinction survive, though that is the most minor of the reasons to pursue their survival.

Some other papers of interest. This one makes reference to the two papers above and discusses them. It is in Chinese however.

Communication on Contemporary Anthropology Vol. 2, December 17, 2008

Distribution of Y chromosome Haplogroup D in East Asia and its Anthropological Implications

Abstract
The recent paper by Shi et al. (2008) provided the most details for the ethnic features of Y chromosome haplogroup D. The geographic distribution and age estimate for haplogroup D and its sub-clades helps in understanding the origin and migration processes of the early modern human in East Asia. Clades DE* and D* were found in Tibetan and Thai respectively. These findings make the search of the birth place of haplogroup D possible. Here we continued the discussion of Chandrasekar et al. (2007). The frequencies of haplogroup D in various populations of East Asia were collected from all the available literature. The analyses showed that the emergence of haplogroup D may be between India and Indochina. Clade D1 emerged subsequently when population move to the east. After clade D* diffused to the whole East Asia, it gave birth to clade D2 in Japan and clade D3 in Tibet independently.
Last edited by RajeshA on 18 Oct 2012 18:47, edited 3 times in total.
johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by johneeG »

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote: the question is whether languages like Celtic and Germanic were also a product of the dispersion of R1a1a1 (M417) or whether they have a different carrier gene! The R1b influence is somewhat unclear to me.
In my mind I have different picture, although I was not going to make this post just yet. This is not about conquest. The western mind imagines that conquest is necessary to spread language, but conquest often does not lead to language change.

It could be that a lot of wise mean learned in the Vedas attracted foreigners who came to India to learn and went back. Perhaps the Vedas went all the way to Eastern Europe with M17 and people learned from there.

If you look at what Socrates and his student Plato (500 BC and later) said - both had some inkling of the nature of reality and the soul as one would acquire from the Upanishads that predated them even by AIT Nazi dates. Socrates also argued strongly in favor of maintaining an oral tradition of learning at a time when Greeks has started writing a lot.

The word Deva was widespread in pre-Christian eastern Europe along the distribution of M17.

So there are some very old and very deep links. This was probably not about this vulgar horse and chariot conquest, but knowledge of the Universe, life and spirituality spread in a guru-shishya fashion. Vedic words were picked up and borrowed into local languages and gradually corrupted. Germany probably had very old Basque genes but the people were influenced by the Sanskrit learned men of the east (Europe).
+108.

Following excerpt from Ram Swarup's 'Hinduism: Reviews and Reflections', deal with the same issue:
India and Europe opens with the "Philosophical View of India in Classical Antiquity", or India in the old Greek tradition. It assumes that Classical Greece provides Europe's antiquity and that the two are related in some special way. It is a debatable point but it has been assumed here as axiomatic. The fact is that at the time when Greece represented a living culture, it did not know Europe, nor Europe of that time knew Greece.
The Greeks knew themselves as Hellenists, not Europeans. And whenever they sought the origins of, or influences upon, their own philosophy and religion, they thought of Egypt, Chaldea and India, not of Europe. They received little from Europe and they bequeathed not much to it, at least at the time when they represented a living culture. In fact, Christian Europe as it was taking shape first grew in opposition to and later in forgetfulness of Greek culture. Christian Europe in its early period used Greek language and Greek philosophy to establish itself; then it attacked ferociously Greek culture; it destroyed Greek literature, its schools and libraries.2 The work of destruction was so complete that even the memory of Plato and Socrates was obliterated and for a thousand years Christian Europe grew in complete ignorance of what it calls its classical antiquity.
When Greek learning revived again, it was too late for it to exert a living influence on anyone. It had died as a living tradition and it was now a thing belonging to museums and libraries and was a topic only for learned dissertations. But even in this form, it began to invite fierce opposition. The Reformation was a revolt against the classical Renaissance, a "reaction of backward minds", or a "protest of antiquated spirits", as Nietzsche saw it. The call to go back to the Bible and to Jehovah was in a very deep sense a repudiation of the Greek tradition, whether spiritual or intellectual. Today what Europe calls the Greek learning is not the learning as it was seen by the Greeks, but as it is understood by the Europeans through their own categories of thought. To the Greeks, Homer and its Gods were great realities, part and parcel of their lives; to Europeans of the Renaissance period, they were legends and interesting tales.
Even earlier, during the first centuries of Christianity, it was clear that the Greek and Christian approaches to the life of the spirit were incompatible and Christianity waged a relentless war against the Greco-Roman approach; and when the Greek learning revived again, the old incompatibility was still there undiminished. But if the Greek learning still found a certain receptivity the reason was that by this time, it was totally misunderstood and misconceived. For any truly classical revival, Christian soil was very inhospitable indeed.
This however does not mean that modern Europe had no link with old Greece. An unknown link connected the two intimately and the link was established when Sanskrit was discovered. When this discovery was made, it became obvious that India, Greece, Rome and Europe had great linguistic, spiritual and ethnic affinity and even a common ancestry derived probably from India and Sanskrit. But this suggestion was soon resisted by rising European colonialism. To counter such a suggestion, it postulated on the other hand a third, conjectural source still more remote in time and also far removed from India. But according to all the testimony available at present, the old affinity between these regions and peoples, particularly in its spiritual dimension, is still best represented by India. The Christian interlude in Europe and the Muslim interlude in Iran are merely distorters or aberrations of this old affinity.
But while one need not subscribe to Professor Halbfass's unproved assumption that old Greece represents modern Christian Europe's classical antiquity, there should be no difficulty in readily agreeing that the author's treatment of the subject of "India in Greek Tradition" is able and competent. It brings together many traditions on the subject within the confine of one chapter and it is useful for interested readers. One could of course still point out some obvious omissions. For example, Apollonius of Tyna, the great sage of the Greek world who is reputed to have come to India to meet its sages, is mentioned just to be told that his biography by Philostratus is "legendry". There is nothing improbable in a saint of the Greek world visiting India, but even if the biography is legendry, it is known to have been written by 220 AD, and even as a legend it is a good witness and tells us where India stood in the estimation of Greek sages and philosophers of an early date. It tells us that the Pythagoreans of Greece and the Naked Philosophers of Egypt had derived their doctrines from the "Wise men of India".
Professor Halbfass follows a scholar's methodology in determining the extent of Indo-Greek contact. He is determined to find a document, some written mention, some journey relating to this contact before he would admit it, but by their very nature such evidences can only be very rare considering the time that has lapsed and the changes that have been wrought. But if Professor Halbfass had followed a more inward method or criterion of looking at Greek literature, he would have easily found plentiful evidence of a living Indo-Greek contact, particularly at the deeper level of the spirit. Both shared a common spiritual approach; both intuited man and his world in the same way; both expressed their spiritual intuition in the language of Gods; both taught âtma-vâda, and the theory of Two Selves and Two Ways; both taught the theory of karma, rebirth and moksha. In fact, the Greece of Pythagoras, Plato and Plotinus has more in common with Hindu India than with Christian Europe.

III
Then a long period of more than a thousand years intervened - a period of triumph and consolidation of Christianity in Europe. Already Christianity had successfully fought Greek as well as several Eastern spiritual influences in the shape of Mithraism, Gnosticism, etc. An ideological iron-curtain fell on Europe and its spirit underwent a process of systematic Semiticization. Thanks to this sustained conditioning, the European spirit became incapable of appreciating and understanding Indian spirituality. This spiritual impediment was reinforced by a physical one when Islam triumphed in the Middle East and swayed over the sea and land routes connecting the Mediterranean with India.
During these long years of lost contact, India became a legend. But contact was resumed when a new route to India was discovered and Vasco da Gama landed in 1498 at Calicut with soldiers, missionaries and traders. Thus the first modern contact was military-cum-missionary-cum-commercial, and any subsequent academic intellectual interest grew out of this and it contained the qualities of the first encounter.
India and Europe includes a very interesting chapter on the "Missionary Approach to Indian Thought". Most missionaries had a very dim view of Hinduism which they regarded as unmitigated evil. St. Xavier thought that Brahmins, a highly revered class, stood between Christianity and the heathens and that this class should be destroyed. He requested the king of Portugal to use the secular arm for the conversion of the Hindus.
But there were certain missionaries who had a livelier idea of the difficulties and their situation. They proposed the strategy of using Hinduism against Hinduism, a strategy which has its Biblical precedent in the practice of St. Paul. Robert Di Nobili, representing this school, made a distinction between the social customs of the heathens and their religious ceremonies. He preached that while the former could be accepted, only the latter should be opposed. He also pointed out that the Brahmins were mainly teachers and priests and their function was social and educational and not religious; and therefore they need not be opposed but only neutralized and, in fact, the respect accorded to them could be used to promote Christianity. He himself pretended that he was a Romanic Brahmin and the teacher or Guru of a lost Veda, Jesurvedam, which he offered to teach to his fellow-Brahmins in India.
While most missionaries saw Hinduism as a handiwork of the devil, some also saw in it the remnants of an old monotheism, probably borrowed from Christian and Judaic sources, but now distorted and defaced beyond recognition. B. Ziegenbalg (1682-1719), a Lutheran missionary, wrote back to his patrons in Europe about this original monotheism which had been subsequently lost because Hindus "allowed themselves to be seduced by the devil and their ancient poets into believing in a multitude of gods".

IV
These reports reaching Europe had an unintended effect; they were used to support a very different line of reasoning - a line of reasoning which was even anti-Christian. In order to understand this, we shall have to understand the Europe of those days.
After the Crusades came to nothing, Europe was in an intellectual ferment and was learning to question some of its cherished ideas and dogmas. A pamphlet "On the Three Impostors" (Moses, Jesus and Muhammad) came out in 1598 and had a wide clandesting circulation When the Greek learning was revived, stoicism, the old Greek religion, was also rediscovered. Many advanced thinkers saw that it was deeply religious and highly ethical, and yet it had no revelation and no mediator; it also spoke in the language of reason and conscience and it had a universality of approach quite unknown to Christianity.
Under these new influences, a school grew in Europe which spoke of a "natural religion" and "natural theology". It said that man's "reason" and "conscience" were enough to account for God and morality and they needed no revelation and no mediators. Thomas More (1478-1535), an English statesman and author, expressed this idea of a "rational religion" and "natural theology" in his famous Utopia.
This view also agreed with man's enlightened commonsense. Therefore, when reports reached Europe from the Far East of a religion - Confucianism - which had no heaven-mongering and yet was highly ethical and humane, it had a warm reception in certain highly intellectual circles. Leibnitz (1646-1716), the German philosopher and mathematician, thought that Chinese missionaries should visit Europe in order to instruct the Westerners about the questions of "natural theology" and commonsense.
It was at this time and in this climate that India entered Europe. India was already known for its natural theology. Quite early even Shahrastani (1086-1153) in his Kitb al-Milal wa'n-nihal had noticed that prophets were unknown to the Brahmins and that they tended towards a kind of rationalism which does not depend on revelation.
India not only taught high morals like the Chinese, but unlike them it also did not neglect the metaphysical dimension. Some, like Schopenhauer, were in search of a "philosophy which should be at once ethics and metaphysics". India did not disappoint them. Schopenhauer (1788-1860) found it in the Upanishadic tat tvam asi, "that thou art". Earlier J.G. Herder (1744-1803) had found that Indians' morals were "pure and noble", and their concept of God "great and beautiful". Indian thought satisfied those who sought spiritual transcendence without an anthropomorphic God who is always thundering, threatening, and promising and also an ethics embodying man's innate moral nature and not arbitrary commandments from an external agency. This thought, in one of its lower expressions and movements known as Deism, made a wide appeal in Europe. It even affected many European administrators and residents abroad. William Carey, a Baptist missionary, complained that "India swarms with Deists".

V
Original Home of All Religions
It did not take long for the question to acquire another dimension, the dimension of time. India gave a religion which was not only rational but was also prior to all other religions. In 1760, Voltaire acquired a copy of Ezourvedam, a forgery of the Jesuits (most probably of Di Nobili). But even this served an unintended purpose. Voltaire with his acumen saw even in this document the voice of an ancient religion. While he praised Brahmins for having "established religion on the basis of universal religion", he also found that India was the home of religion in its oldest and purest form. He described India as a country "on which all other countries had to rely, but which did not rely on anyone else". He also believed that Christianity derived from Hinduism. He wrote to and assured Frederick the Great of Prussia that "our holy Christian religion is solely based upon the ancient religion of Brahma".
This view was held by many European thinkers and writers. F. Majer (1771-1818) said: "It will no longer remain to be doubted that the priests of Egypt and the sages of Greece have drawn directly from the original well of India." And again: "Towards the Orient, to the banks of the Ganges and the Indus, it is there that our hearts feel drawn by some hidden urge - it is there that all the dark presentiments point which lie in the depths of our hearts... In the Orient, the heavens poured forth into the earth."
J.G. Herder also saw in India the "lost paradise of all religions and philosophies", the "cradle of humanity", the "eternal home", the "eternal Orient ... waiting to be rediscovered within ourselves". This is high praise, indeed, but it does not mean that he ever thought that India supplanted the West. Any such thought was far from his mind. What he meant was that India represented humanity's childhood, its innocence, as Hellenism represented its "adolescence" and Rome its "adulthood". Similarly, while Indians were "the gentlest branch of humanity", Christianity was the religion of "purest humanity".
The thesis of Indian origins of Christianity found a warm reception in many quarters and it continued to be propagated by Rosicrucians, Theosophists and individual scholars and philosophers like Schopenhauer, L. Jacolliot, A. Lillie and F. Nork.
But the traditional Christianity did not yield easily and it argued furiously for the primacy of the Mosaic-Christian Revelation. A. Dacier, J. Bouchet and Th. La Grue argued for the priority of Biblical Chronology. Even Newton was involved in the controversy and argued for the primacy of the Biblical Chronology. But the growing knowledge of history and older civilizations was against them.
Orthodox Christians took recourse to another line of argument. While yielding a certain chronological priority to India they upheld Christianity's moral and spiritual primacy. They said that even if India had known some kind of religion at an early date, its essential truths were badly corrupted and it needed the living waters of Christianity to revive them. To them, India offered a classic example of a tradition that had been unable to safeguard its original purity against its pagan superstition and priestly fraud, and disgusting barbarism - a warning and reminder to others. An article on "Brahmins" in Encyclopaedia says that a Christian could not fail to see the 41 effect of divine wrath" in such decay and deprivation. Professor Halbfass informs us that India's example was often cited to illustrate the theme of the eclipse and suppression of "natural light" through superstition and ritualism, and that this theme enjoyed a great popularity among thinkers of the Enlightenment.


VI
A New Phase
Soon the Indo-European encounter entered a new phase. Indian texts began to be translated into European languages. Works of Roger, Dow, Holwell, Wilkin's translations of the Bhagavad Gita and the Hitopdesha and W. Jones' Shakuntala created a taste for Indian thought. Western scholars read in translations such things as: "Vishnu is in you, in me, in all beings"; or "See all men in your own soul"; or "Banish the delusion of being different". Though later on, the missionary writers tried to dismiss such teachings under the label of "pantheism", many Western thinkers heard such sublime thoughts and ethics for the first time and were deeply stirred. The stir was Europewide, but it was most conspicuous in Germany. F. Schlegel, one of the pioneers of the Oriental Renaissance, wrote about India: "Here is the actual source of all languages, all the thoughts and poems of the human spirit; everything, everything without exception comes from India." Later on, of course, he changed his views when he became a Roman Catholic and not to India but to Biblical Mesopotamia gave the palm of being the "cradle of mankind", but his contribution to the Oriental Renaissance remained outstanding.
Another great name belonging to this movement was that of Schopenhauer. His interest in Indian religion was first aroused by reading Anquetil Dupperon's Latin translation of Oupnekhat (1801-1802), itself a translation from a Persian version. He was deeply moved and he found its reading "the most rewarding and edifying", and its philosophy "the solace of my life and will be the solace of my death". After this he continued to take a deep interest in India. In Indians, he found the "most noble and ancient people", and their wisdom was the "original wisdom of the human race". He spoke of India as the "fatherland of mankind", which gave the "original religion of our race" and "oldest of all world view". He thought of the Upanishads as the "fruit of the most sublime human knowledge and wisdom", documents of "almost superhuman conception" whose authors could "hardly be thought of as mere mortals". He expressed the hope that European peoples "who stemmed from Asia ... would also re-attain the holy religions of their home" (Italics added).

Sanskrit
Europe's discovery of Sanskrit also worked in the same direction. F. Sassetti had observed as early as the second half of the sixteenth century that Sanskrit and Europe's classical languages were related in some way. Jones also saw the basic similarities between these languages and soon some basic concepts of linguistics and history were revolutionised. The discovery of Sanskrit proved a great event in Europe's intellectual history. It upset Europe's self-image; it showed that its Semitic association and identification were brief and accidental and that its linguistic and, therefore, its philosophic, religious and cultural roots lay elsewhere. Europe's close affinity with India could no longer be a matter of speculation; it was written all over in the languages of Europe, classical or modern. J.G. Herder asked himself. "All the peoples of Europe, where are they from?" And he answered: "From Asia."
Sanskrit was found to be the oldest of all Aryan languages and therefore also their ancestor. Hegel, no admirer of India, admitted: "It is a great discovery in history - as of a new world - which has been made within rather more than the last twenty years, respecting the Sanskrit and the connection of the European languages with it. In particular, the connection of the German and Indian peoples has been demonstrated." German Oriental Renaissance was erected on Bopp's linguistic foundation.
The enthusiasm for Indian culture was widespread. Amaury de Riencourt in his The Soul of India tells us that philosophers like Schelling, Fichte, Hegel, Schopenhauer and Schleiermacher, poets such as Goethe, Schillar, Novalis, Tieck and Brentano, historians like Herder and Schlegel, all acclaimed the discovery of Indian culture with cries of ecstasy: "India, the home of universal religion, the cradle of the noblest human race, of all literature, of all philosophies and metaphysics." And he adds that "this enthusiasm was not confined to Germany. The entire Romantic movement in the West put Indian culture on a lofty pedestal which the preceding Classical Movement had reserved for Greece and Rome."
Tolstoy, a late-comer, was also deeply influenced by Indian religious thought. Like Wagner, his introduction to it was through Burnouf and Schopenhauer. Beginning with his Confessions, there is no work of his "which is not inspired, in part by Hindu thought", to put it in the words of Markovitch quoted by Raymond Schwab in The Oriental Renaissance. He further adds that Tolstoy also "remains the most striking example, among a great many, of those who sought a cure for the western spirit in India".
Thus we see that India's influence was widespread throughout Europe, but it was the greatest in Germany. In fact' Germany was called "the India of the Occident". Hugo said that "Germany is to the West what India is to the East, a sort of great forbear. Let us venerate her". These words (September 1870) might have been said though in order to flatter Germany in the hope that she would spare Paris which her armies had besieged.

Importance of Indian Influence
While the Oriental Movement expanded the West's intellectual horizon and influenced it at a deeper level, it was also used in the current controversies and polemics of the day. Some used it in support of the forces of Enlightenment and rationalism to give themselves an example of high-minded religion and ethics which did not depend on revelation and dogmas; others used it against the naive rationalism of the eighteenth century.
Some found that the Bible's Hebraic tradition with its narrow-mindedness, intolerant monotheism, its coarse materialism and lack of mysticism had a corrupting influence on European culture and they found their answer in Indian religious culture which was both rational and mystical.
Oriental Renaissance was also used against classical Renaissance, particularly in Germany. For long, Germans had been accused, particularly by Latin people, of being Teutonic barbarians who destroyed the great Mediterranean culture. In return, the Germans by identifying themselves with the more ancient Indian culture rejected the cultural superiority of the Latin races and especially of French Classicism. Thus by identifying themselves with ancient India and by claiming a new lineage, the Germans restored their self-respect and equality with their accusers.

VII
Opposition
Thus the Oriental Renaissance came to tread over too many toes and its results were disturbing even to many Orientalists who had intended their labour to yield a different kind of harvest. For example, H.H. Wilson, a celebrated Indologist, Boden Professor, translator of the Rg Veda and the ViSNu PurâNa, speaking at the University of Oxford in 1840, said that the objects of Indian studies were "to contribute to the religious enlightenment of a benighted, but intelligent and interesting and amiable people"; another object was "to confute the falsities of Hinduism". Earlier William Carey had said that the purpose of translating Sanskrit texts was to show they were "filled with nothing but pebbles and trash". But the results were just the opposite. Many of the best minds of Europe thought that these texts were sublime, and the possessors of those texts could not be benighted and needed no foreign aid in religious enlightenment. Some also used these texts to show the inadequacy of Christianity.
Oriental Renaissance began to invite opposition. Missionaries were one obvious source of it. Another source was Imperialism. European powers were becoming self-conscious imperialists and they could not rule with a clean conscience over peoples who were proud possessors of great cultures. Therefore they opposed views which exalted the ideological status of their colonies. Another source, a natural result of Imperialism, was growing Eurocentricity. Europe became less and less inclined to believe that anything worthwhile could be found anywhere outside of Europe. Therefore, the Oriental Movement began to be downgraded. It was called "romantic", and even "fanatic"; its fascination for India was a form of "Indo-mania". Others dealt with it in a more intellectual, but equally hostile way. They admitted a certain antiquity and even priority for Indian people and their culture, facts which could no longer be denied, but they saw in it no reason for departing from their low estimate of India. Hegel, for example, admitted that India "was the centre of emigration for all the western world", but he said that it was merely a "physical diffusion". "The people of India have achieved no foreign conquests, but have been on every occasion vanquished them-selves."
Similarly, though he admitted the fact of India's cultural spread arguing that Sanskrit lies at the foundation of all those further developments which form the languages of Europe Greek, Latin, German - but he also found in this cultural diffusion only "a dumb, deedless expansion", which "presented no political action". No wars, no forcible conversions, no cultural impositions; therefore, worth nothing much, nothing creditable! :eek:
Others dealt with the problem in other ways. They retained old facts but gave them a new rendering; or they retained some facts and changed others and offered a new combination. For example, Indians were allowed to possess the Vedas, the oldest literature of the Aryans, but the Aryans themselves were made to migrate, this time from Europe to India as conquerors. Thus the tables were turned. Migration remained but its direction changed. India which was hitherto regarded as the home of European languages and people now became the happy hunting ground of the same people who came and conquered and imposed their will and culture on India. The theory of Aryan invasion was born. History was written in support of the new hegemony and power relations.
Other scholars made other kinds of attempts. Considering that Europe's religious and philosophical tradition was a late corner, some European thinkers had derived it from India, a common enough practice in the academic field in such matters. But William Jones now offered the hypothesis of a third unknown source. He said that India was not the original home of the religious and philosophic tradition of the West, but itself represented an old offshoot of an original source common to both East and West. "Pythagoras and Plato derive their sublime theories from the same fountain with the sages of India", he said. As the attitude in Europe changed, the hypothesis was lapped up and it was accepted as fact.
The hypothesis of a third lost source began to be applied to many fields but more particularly to linguistics. Some scholars even began to reconstruct this common source and invented "Indo-European roots". These roots were a logical construct and the already existing Sanskrit roots could have done as well, but possibly a psychological motive was at work. Though Sanskrit had the oldest literature, the idea that it could have some sort of a primacy in the Aryan family of languages was not acceptable. Therefore they accepted the next best hypothesis that both Sanskrit and European languages had a common source still more ancient but now lost. To own a filial relationship with India was no matter of pride for Europe; so the next best thing under the circumstances was to make this relationship collateral and push it as far back in the past as possible. Things may change and India's social status may improve after its political and economic status improves.

Hegel
Europe, at the head of a far-flung empire, had to assert its superiority at all levels: military, commercial, religious and philosophical. It could not countenance a view which exalted the peoples of the Orient in any way Missionaries were always on the war-path but on the level of philosophy, Hegel led the attack and his attack was as unsparing and ungenerous as that of the former. But while the missionaries used the language of theology, Hegel used the high-winded language of intellectuality, or just sheer "confused, empty verbiage", according to Schopenhauer.
Herder had thought that India represented man's living past, his innocence, but Hegel believed that the World-Spirit (Weltgeist) moved from East to West, and in the Oriental tradition, Europe faces, in a sense, its own petrified past. He believed that the Occident had already superseded the Orient and the Orient has to be "excluded from the history of philosophy". In fact, Hegel himself gave us a "philosophy of history", a scheme which brought non-European cultures and thought in historical subordination to Europe. After Hegel, many European scholars have engaged in this labour and in Marx it touched new heights and achieved much concrete, political results.
According to Professor Halbfass, Hegel and others "reflected Europe's historical position at the beginning of the 19th century. It claims intellectual, moral and religious superiority over the rest of the world." The author tells us that Hegel "even tries to justify the historical necessity of Europe's colonial activities". In his The Philosophy of History, Hegel praises the British for undertaking "the weighty responsibility of being the missionaries of civilization to the world".
Following Hegel's lead, though the lead was hardly necessary, Indian philosophy began to be berated. Professor Halbfass writes a whole chapter entitled "On the Exclusion of India from the History of Philosophy". But there is nothing surprising about it. In the same spirit and with the same level of understanding, Indian religion, art, sciences and technology, social and political thought were also either omitted or berated. But what is really incomprehensible is that India's own elites under the spell of Europe have shown no appreciation and commitment to their country's intellectual and creative contribution.
In a sense, this omission is no deprivation but in fact a blessing. Exclusion does no harm and inclusion brings no honour. In fact, inclusion is far worse than exclusion. The fact is that Europe is not spiritually prepared to take Indian higher thought into its purview and, therefore, it is better that it is left out altogether. But on occasions when Europe does speak about it, it speaks vaguely about something it does not comprehend. For example, take Hegel himself. Speaking about Yoga, he says that the "ascent to Brahman is brought about by utter stupefaction and insensibility". The comment is simply laughable. Similarly, he often speaks, probably more than any other European philosopher, of consciousness; but he does not seem to be aware, even conceptually, of a state of consciousness which is liberated from its own images, thoughts, stored impressions, its opacity, duality and ego, a state of consciousness about which Indian Yogas speak. In this state, the consciousness is joyful (viSoka), and luminous (jyotishmatî), truth-bearing or truth-filled (ritam-bharâ), and those who attain it live on truth (rita-bhuj), and dwell in truth (rita-sad).



VIII
India entered Europe as a widening and deepening force and it was looked upon with respect and admiration by some of its greatest thinkers like Voltaire, Schelling and Schopenhouer, But the vested interests and forces of narrowness and obscurantism were powerful and they banded together and made a determined stand. Eventually the Euro-Colonial-Missionary forces triumphed, represented by soldier-scholars like J.S. Mill, Hegel, Macaulay, Marx and many others. They were thoroughly Eurocentric and they looked at India and other countries of the East with contempt and condescension. But they became popular not only in the West but in India and Asia as well. They taught several generations of Indians how and what to think of themselves and of Europe. The Indian elites began to look at their country and people through European eyes and European categories. They even borrowed the West's contempt for their own people. Traditional India, during its recovery and reaffirmation, finds itself most fiercely opposed by these elitist forces at home. These forces have intimate intellectual, organizational and financial links with the West.

Neo-Hinduism
This anti-Hinduism of the Hindus, their Missionary-Macaulayite-Marxist view of themselves, their own culture, religion and history, is the most powerful legacy the European contact has left behind. But Professor Halbfass does not discuss this at all. On the other hand, he discusses, in the second section of his book, what he calls Neo-Hinduism, a Hinduism shaped by and during the presence of Europe but which is not anti-Hindu and which, in fact, defends Hinduism though not in its native idiom but in the borrowed idiom of Europe. According to Professor Halbfass, Neo-Hinduism took shape "in a historical setting created by Europe", and it "has difficulties speaking for itself"; it "speaks to a large extent in a European medium".
To some extent, this is true; but the limitation is not all on the side of Neo-Hinduism. If it is to engage in a dialogue with the West, it must speak in the idiom best understood by the listener. Though the West is an acute linguist and it has mastered many languages but it is not so nimblewitted in understanding the peoples who spoke them.
Moreover, Neo-Hinduism does more than justify Hinduism; it also justifies Christianity, Islam and many other non-Indian cults. As it uses Western categories to defend Hinduism, in the same spirit it uses traditional Indian categories to promote Semitic religions. In its insatiable desire for "synthesis" and similarities, it seeks and finds Vedânta in the Bible and the Quran and in Das Kapital too; it says that Jesus and Muhammad and Marx all are incarnations and Rishis, and that they all say the same thing. The net result is that Semitic prophets are as popular among the Hindus as their own. Western Rationalism had rejected Christianity not only for its miracles but even more so for its exclusive claims which offend rationality, but it is now coming back under Hindu auspices and promotion.
Last edited by johneeG on 18 Oct 2012 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote: the question is whether languages like Celtic and Germanic were also a product of the dispersion of R1a1a1 (M417) or whether they have a different carrier gene! The R1b influence is somewhat unclear to me.
In my mind I have different picture, although I was not going to make this post just yet. This is not about conquest. The western mind imagines that conquest is necessary to spread language, but conquest often does not lead to language change.

It could be that a lot of wise mean learned in the Vedas attracted foreigners who came to India to learn and went back. Perhaps the Vedas went all the way to Eastern Europe with M17 and people learned from there.
shiv saar,

You are right, but I did not have conquests in mind in this case, but I was speaking rather of migration in deep antiquity (18,000 YBP). R1b is a very old subclade, and I was wondering how it affects the language movement.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

On the Trail of Earliest Populating of India

Also the O Y-Chromosome Hyplogroup is also of interest to understand India's Northeast and tribal populations.

Annals of Human Biology November 2011, Vol. 38, No. 6 , Pages 736-746

Paleolithic spread of Y-chromosomal lineage of tribes in eastern and northeastern India
Authors: Minal Borkar¹⁺², Fahim Ahmad³, Faisal Khan⁴, Suraksha Agrawal¹

¹ Department of Medical Genetics, SGPGIMS, Lucknow, India
² Hospital Universitario Marqués de Valdecilla, Santander, Spain
³ Center for Excellence on Infectious Disease, Texas Tech University, TX, USA
⁴ Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary, Canada


Abstract
The Indian peninsula provides a suitable region for examination of the demographic impact of migrations and invasions in historical times, because its complex recent history has involved the long-term residence of different populations with distinct geographical origins and their own particular cultural characteristics.

The aim of the present study was to analyse Y chromosome haplotypes in tribes from eastern and north-eastern India, which provided the necessary phylogeographic resolution.

A total of 32 Y-chromosome SNPs and 17 Y-STRs were genotyped in 607 males from nine populations (Munda, Birhor, Oraon, Paharia, Santhal, Ho, Lachung, Mech and Rajbanshi) residing in East and Northeastern India.

Y-chromosomal analysis revealed high frequency of the O2a haplogroup in Austroasiatic tribes and high haplotype diversity within specific haplogroups demonstrating a lesser degree of admixture of these populations with neighbouring populations in eastern India. In addition, the presence of O3a haplogroups in Sino-Tibetan populations reflects the influx from Southeast Asia during the demographic expansion through the Northeastern corridor.

The study suggested that the majority of the male gene flow of Austroasiatic tribes occurred during the late Pleistocene period. The results suggest gene flow from Southeast Asia to Northeast India, albeit more significantly among Tibeto-Burman than Austroasiatic-speaking populations.

____________

Perhaps the thing to remember here may be that the Tibetans are a result of migrations from Southeast through India's Northeast, though I am not certain whether the flow was from Southeast Asia to India's Northeast or in the other direction.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:I am not interested in the rest of R1. I am however interested in R2, which is found in India, but I will not comment unless I can comment with some authority by quoting suitable refs.
Reich categorized R1 as ANI and R2 as ASI! :-?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: Furthermore, I don't understand why
1) R1 is ANI, but ancestor of R1, R is ASI!
2) R1 is ANI, but sibling of R1, R2 is ASI!
2) R is ASI, but ancestor of R, P is ANI!
3) P is ANI, and so are siblings K*, but sibling L is ASI!
4) P is ANI, and so are siblings K*, and so is parent K also ANI, but parent of K and, i.e. F is ASI.
5) In the matrilineal lines, some subclades of U and M are in ASI, while others are in ANI!

Anybody care to explain!
Rajesh did you read the footnote below Table S6?

I had quoted it earlier
Note: Haplogroups were designated as typical of Ancient South Indians (ASI) or Ancient North Indians (ANI) based on the judgement of an expert on mtDNA and Y chromosome variation (KT) who was blinded to ancestry estimates from the autosomes.
Now what does that mean?
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:Rajesh did you read the footnote below Table S6?

I had quoted it earlier
Note: Haplogroups were designated as typical of Ancient South Indians (ASI) or Ancient North Indians (ANI) based on the judgement of an expert on mtDNA and Y chromosome variation (KT) who was blinded to ancestry estimates from the autosomes.
Now what does that mean?
Trying to understand the English in that statement in my limited way as a non-expert, I would say, that autosomal DNA based ancestry was not considered in deciding which Y-Chromosome Haplogroups and which mtDNA Haplogroups were to be considered ASI and which were to be considered ANI. Autosomal DNA did not play any role in this selection process.

If you wish to read up on it then Wikipedia may help as a starting point.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: Trying to understand the English in that statement in my limited way as a non-expert, I would say, that autosomal DNA based ancestry was not considered in deciding which Y-Chromosome Haplogroups and which mtDNA Haplogroups were to be considered ASI and which were to be considered ANI. Autosomal DNA did not play any role in this selection process.

If you wish to read up on it then Wikipedia may help as a starting point.
Is it possible that he looked at percentages and then at the names of sampled groups, knew which were north and south and arbitrarily assigned ASI and ASI if something was higher among Northern groups or Southern groups? I will try and see if he has done that. The man was blinded to autosomal ancestry estimates, but he may not have been blinded to the actual ancestry among haplogroups.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

Rjesh. Look at table S6 again. Onge have more ANI than ASI in both mtDNA and Y. Vaish and Kashmiri Pandit have the opposite. Is there a labeling mistake? That would be a very serious error in a paper like this. None of the data can then be trusted
Last edited by shiv on 18 Oct 2012 19:14, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

I had noticed that mistake in the labeling as well. One has to look up within the table to see that they mean a higher percentage for ASI. However even that is due to the mtDNA and not the Y-Chromosome. On the Y-Chromosome, the Onge and the ASI don't seem to have any common ancestors, i.e any for a long time.

The Onge may be genetically closer on patrilineal line with the advasis of Northeast (D* Y-Chromosome Haplogroup), but from the data they don't seem to be sharing any Y-Chromosome ancestry with the Ancestral South Indians (ASI) or for that matter with the Ancestral North Indians (ANI). D* is unclassified.

Moreover the Great Andamanese also have O, O2, O3 ancestry which they share with the adivasis in the Northeast!
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

I had noticed that mistake in the labeling as well. One has to look up within the table to see that they mean a higher percentage for ASI. However even that is due to the mtDNA and not the Y-Chromosome. On the Y-Chromosome, the Onge and the ASI don't seem to have any common ancestors, i.e any for a long time.

The Onge may be genetically closer on patrilineal line with the advasis of Northeast (D* Y-Chromosome Haplogroup)!
No there is a labeling error. Check Vaish and Kash Pandit

They have more ASI than ANI for both Y and mt. But Vaish and KP are classified as the top ANI groups! In my time this would be a fatal error and the paper would not get published just for such an error

Please, I want others also to check
See table S6
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 365-s1.pdf
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

I had noticed that mistake in the labeling as well. One has to look up within the table to see that they mean a higher percentage for ASI. However even that is due to the mtDNA and not the Y-Chromosome. On the Y-Chromosome, the Onge and the ASI don't seem to have any common ancestors, i.e any for a long time.

The Onge may be genetically closer on patrilineal line with the advasis of Northeast (D* Y-Chromosome Haplogroup)!
No there is a labeling error. Check Vaish and Kash Pandit

They have more ASI than ANI for both Y and mt. But Vaish and KP are classified as the top ANI groups! In my time this would be a fatal error and the paper would not get published just for such an error
I had seen the errors only on Onge and Great Andamanians. But now that you have pointed out, the labeling errors are pretty wide-spread! :lol:

May be Kashmiri Pandits are also South Indians! :rotfl:

Pir-Review indeed! :lol:
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:
I had seen the errors only on Onge and Great Andamanians. But now that you have pointed out, the labeling errors are pretty wide-spread! :lol:

May be Kashmiri Pandits are also South Indians! :rotfl:

Pir-Review indeed! :lol:
Rajesh I might email the author or better still I will email Nature. It reflects very poorly on the journal and the author, Data labeling errors are inexcusable in a paper that is built around that data. Now you cannot seriously trust any of the data.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:Rajesh I might email the author or better still I will email Nature. It reflects very poorly on the journal and the author, Data labeling errors are inexcusable in a paper that is built around that data. Now you cannot seriously trust any of the data.
I think the authors would appreciate that.

Once you have established correspondence with them, perhaps you may like to offer some suggestions about alternative naming of ANI and ASI.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

RajeshA,

We all are South Indians and PIE is proto-Tamil!
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13518
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Vayutuvan »

Over the years the quality of papers published in Nature seem to go down. Looks like it has reached a nadir in sync with the waning British power.
Locked