Siachen News & Discussion

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eklavya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

rohitvats wrote:Part II

List of delegates from both the sides:

[India

Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force Retd), CHAIR
Sodiers in Business

Retired Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi is the Chairman of William Global Advisors, an aviation and aerospace consultancy. The co-founder and president of the company, John Williams, was the Director of Industrial Strategy and Offset Programs in India for Boeing, responsible for offset programs for both Boeing’s commercial and defence business units. Besides William Global, Tyagi has also worked with Zuari Industries and BHEL. “Yes, I’m managing a private company,” said Tyagi, who retired in 2007.
Strange business ...
member_23370
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Its time India had a coup and the Cong leaders were executed. pronto.
eklavya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

abhijitm wrote:All ex army chiefs were conveniently kept out of this sell out.
Except for Tyagi, no ex air force chief supports this nonsense either. If this rubbish continues, time for a concerted effort by ex chiefs to make their views known to the public.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

For those who have followed this Siachen debate, would well remember the 'pathway' authored by Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal along with an ex-Pakistan Army Officer - Brigadier Asad Hakeem (retd.).

Here is the link to that presentation: http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/cmc-papers/sand20075670.pdf

I request everyone to please read this presentation. Once you've done that, please again go through the Siachen proposal listed by me earlier. And then, compare the language and content. You will see that current proposal mirrors this presentation to the last letter. So, even if the Atlantic Council does not put out the mechanism of implementing this Siachen proposal, the attached presentation will tell you what it will look like.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

There is so much quiet outside seems like BRF is the only place making noise. I am having a nauseous feeling of all political parties are deep into this mud. fk... God save us.
Last edited by abhijitm on 31 Oct 2012 22:09, edited 1 time in total.
member_23370
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

God only helps those who help themselves. One nuke in PAK should settle this once and for all.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

rohitvats wrote:For those who have followed this Siachen debate, would well remember the 'pathway' authored by Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal along with an ex-Pakistan Army Officer - Brigadier Asad Hakeem (retd.).

Here is the link to that presentation: http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/cmc-papers/sand20075670.pdf

I request everyone to please read this presentation. Once you've done that, please again go through the Siachen proposal listed by me earlier. And then, compare the language and content. You will see that current proposal mirrors this presentation to the last letter. So, even if the Atlantic Council does not put out the mechanism of implementing this Siachen proposal, the attached presentation will tell you what it will look like.
I was telling right from the beginning he is selling us out and I got a warning for that. May be I will get another one for this. :roll:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

abhijitm wrote:There is so much quiet outside seems like BRF is the only place making noise. I am having a nauseous feeling of all political parties are deep into this mud. fk... God save us.
Neither the English nor the vernacular media is reporting any of this. You have to dig deep like Rohit has done to realize what's going on. Obviously the government's plan seems to be to serve this up as a fait accompli to the nation and word it in diplomatic jargon to confuse everybody.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

Stupid as it may sound, I am trying to search personal/official email of ex and current army chief. Lets flood them.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

I found a site http://generalvksingh.info/home/contact

I dont know the authenticity but as a desperate move I have sent a message.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Sorry but I have to say if IA/IAF and IN let this happen and do not take out the son of a paki whore who has kiss assed his way to PM they need to disband immediately.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

Nothing on orbat.com either. Very strange. I think the demilitarization plan of Siachen is part of a larger architecture to demilitarize the valley and return to a pre-1953 status for Kashmir. If this is all indeed true, the government has to be taken down by force if necessary. We should hit up the big names on twitter and try to trend a topic. Kanchan Gupta, Swapan Dasgupta, MR Venkatesh, S Gurumurthy, Prof Vaidyanathan, etc. Excellent work Rohit!

*The whole VK Singh fiasco makes sense now. They are trying to push it through as soon as possible. This is probably being done under American pressure to extract some concessions from Pakistan before they pull out the bulk of their forces by 2014.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

VERY IMPORTANT

There has been an exchange of e-mails between Lt. General Katoch and one of the senior delegates in the Indian group which agreed on the Siachen CBM. I was made privy to the same courtesy an acquaintance in the loop.

To ensure that this critical matter reaches larger public, I’m providing a summary of the exchange. People need to read this to understand the level of shenanigans involved. Rest assured, I've permission to post this.

Summary of explanation given by the delegation member to Lt. General Katoch (retd.):
1.The delegation never said that India should vacate Siachen now but only suggested that SHOULD the two sides ever agree to demilitarize then this could possibly be a way

2.We were not appointed by any Government Agency nor do we have anything do with the Government of India. While it is true that we did meet several Government functionaries to keep us up to date, we take full responsibility for what we say and do.

3.We have also informed the Service Chiefs and many Very Senior Officers in the establishment dealing with Indo Pak issues

4.You (referring here to Lt. General Katoch) did mention that you had volunteered to brief the Group on Siachen and had made this offer to Admiral AK Singh. I am sorry we did not get to listen to you. But pleases be assured that we had inputs from many sources including the Service Headquarters.
Summary of response by Lt. General Katoch (retd.):
1.The Atlantic Council of Ottawa bulletin does not convey an agreement has been signed with the proviso that "SHOULD both parties agree to demilitarize" and that too without going into the why, when, the fall back line and its implications.

2.Why make a plan for withdrawing from your own territory and does it not militate against the Indian Parliament resolution that J&K is an integral part of India?

3.Pakistan for sure will continue to cite this agreement for eternity saying it had so many former military officers. The fact that government officials briefed the Track II does not make it any lesser official.

4.You made the assertion that "We were not appointed by any Government Agency nor do we have anything do with the Government of India." You imply that yours was a private body, which cannot be digested.

5. However, if for a moment one assumes that it indeed was a 'private body' then I hope you realize that discussing and agreeing to withdraw from Indian Territory amounts to treason and violation of both the Constitution of India and the 1994 Resolution of Indian Parliament declaring the whole of J&K is integral part of India.

6.Any citizen of India would be within his / her rights to serve you a legal notice on that count including an RTI asking which government officials briefed you / you and your team interacted with.
Last edited by rohitvats on 31 Oct 2012 22:55, edited 2 times in total.
nachiket
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

RoyG wrote: *The whole VK Singh fiasco makes sense now. They are trying to push it through as soon as possible. This is probably being done under American pressure to extract some concessions from Pakistan before they pull out the bulk of their forces by 2014.
Well one good thing is that the new chief went on record stating that we shouldn't withdraw from Siachen as well.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

Only a fool or a scoundrel would agree to demilitarise Siachen. Now at least they are making themselves known.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

The new chief was hand picked by MMS so I don't trust him either. Nothing except the head of these traitors on a stick is acceptable.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

^^Please edit your post. The moderators will not tolerate calling for the deaths of elected and military officials.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Good response by Gen Katoch. Rohit please post their reply to him here as well, if you get your hands on it. Will be interesting to see how they defend their actions.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

Nachiket, then why the rush to replace VK? Perhaps he a bit more malleable. Rohit, this whole Siachen controversy is getting more murky by the day. The email you provided us is quite troubling.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

nachiket wrote:Good response by Gen Katoch. Rohit please post their reply to him here as well, if you get your hands on it. Will be interesting to see how they defend their actions.
nachiket, this summary is not linear and uses material from couple of mails which went to and fro.

I've posted the gist of the arguments from each side.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

RoyG wrote:Nachiket, then why the rush to replace VK? Perhaps he a bit more malleable.
Maybe. We don't know at this point. But Gen Bikram Singh did state his views on Siachen to the media, which were no differrent from the views of previous chiefs. Whether MMS and co. can force him to change his mind remains to be seen. For the country's sake, I hope not.

Incidentally, the esteemed member who liberally quoted Gurmeet Kanwal to put forth his views here seems to have nothing to say about this latest Track II perfidy that Kanwal seems to be involved in
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »



[youtube]r7jwC1k90oc&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Guys lets spread the word. I have started a hashtag #SiachenSellout on Twitter. I have sent the tweets to others I know

Bharat Rakshak has a Twitter handle. Why dont we post Rohit's links and even this Forum handle via this. BR has 2500+ followers on Twitter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is what Ajai Shukla wrote about Siachen earlier this year

http://www.ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012 ... round.html
India offers space for all shades of opinion, including the Wagah candle-lighters who believe that the vicious, vengeful, self-destructive extremism that spreads alarmingly across Pakistan is merely a thin crust, beneath which bubbles a wellspring of tolerance, secularism and democratic liberalism that will burst forth any day, washing away the evil. The fraternal Indo-Pak functions that these idealists organise do no harm and, perhaps, a little good. But when this cuckoo lobby pushes to hand over hard-won territory for “building confidence” with Pakistan, it is time to push back. The only confidence this will build in Rawalpindi is that New Delhi has not learnt the lessons of history.
I am surprised to see his name in the list of delegates
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

They probably secured his silence by including him in the grand sellout with a non-disclosure agreement.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rajithn »

Prem Kumar wrote:This is what Ajai Shukla wrote about Siachen earlier this year

http://www.ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012 ... round.html
India offers space for all shades of opinion, including the Wagah candle-lighters who believe that the vicious, vengeful, self-destructive extremism that spreads alarmingly across Pakistan is merely a thin crust, beneath which bubbles a wellspring of tolerance, secularism and democratic liberalism that will burst forth any day, washing away the evil. The fraternal Indo-Pak functions that these idealists organise do no harm and, perhaps, a little good. But when this cuckoo lobby pushes to hand over hard-won territory for “building confidence” with Pakistan, it is time to push back. The only confidence this will build in Rawalpindi is that New Delhi has not learnt the lessons of history.
I am surprised to see his name in the list of delegates
Exactly. Ajai Shukla's writings have been against any kind of concessions. Another gentleman in that panel is Mr. Katju. Mush specifically named this guy as the biggest hawk in the Agra summit. So what gives? Are Ajai Shukla and Katju being taken for a ride? Have they been made part of the panel to make it look like all sections have been involved and to give this some legitimacy?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vipul »

The Track II tamasha has convinced the Shitistani side that Indians are ready for evicting and they assumed that if Military officials and Sr journalists can be so devoid of common sense, the general populace is/will be very susceptible to Pappi-Jhappi bol bachan.
So mush so that when i gave him a dose of BR lingo to the bhaichara nonsense Shahzad Chaudhary published in his article/blog on Tribune with reference to Siachen it caused him massive khujli and he came out with a special reply spouting more BS and of course conviniently side-stepped the counter points raised.Needless to say the reposte to his reply did not get published despite numerous attempts.
And this from a member of the Track II on the pakistani side. Hats off to him for his dedication to his country.
Compare him with the Jaichands on the Indian side wanting ambassadorship and other postings and the sell-out Indian Leadership. Aack Thoo!!!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

nachiket wrote: Incidentally, the esteemed member who liberally quoted Gurmeet Kanwal to put forth his views here seems to have nothing to say about this latest Track II perfidy that Kanwal seems to be involved in
I have posted enough articles on the recent events and have nothing more to say. I have made my own x-reference to Gen. P. Katoch's articles and have reason to believe that he is overstating the case and is simply wrong on some material points. My x-checking have been with ex-military and others, opposed to a Siachen deal. But, I do not want to go into details here.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

eklavya wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Part II

List of delegates from both the sides:

[India

Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force Retd), CHAIR
Sodiers in Business

Retired Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi is the Chairman of William Global Advisors, an aviation and aerospace consultancy. The co-founder and president of the company, John Williams, was the Director of Industrial Strategy and Offset Programs in India for Boeing, responsible for offset programs for both Boeing’s commercial and defence business units. Besides William Global, Tyagi has also worked with Zuari Industries and BHEL. “Yes, I’m managing a private company,” said Tyagi, who retired in 2007.
Strange business ...
Strange business? , not at all sirjee, it's normal business onlee.. :wink: :wink:

Chopper deal kickbacks: 'India changed tech requirements to help Italian firm'
India allegedly tweaked the technical requirements in the tender to procure 12 VVIP helicopters for the Air Force to help Italian manufacturer AgustaWestland enter the race, an associate of the suspected middleman in the deal has alleged in his confession to Italian prosecutors.

In his testimony, the associate of Guido Haschke said the AW 101 chopper did not qualify initially as the requirements were being drawn by India in 2006. They were allegedly tweaked after Haschke struck a deal with the Italian company.

Investigations have also found that the Indian businessman named by Italian prosecutors — Sanjeev Kumar (Julie) Tyagi — is closely related to former air chief marshal S P Tyagi, who was heading the force when the tender was floated in December 2006.

S P Tyagi is a first cousin of Julie, a Delhi-based businessman. He is one of three Indians being probed for suspected corruption in the Rs 3,546 crore deal.

The retired officer confirmed he was related to Julie but said they had no business links. Julie could not be reached for comment. Reached for its comment, the IAF did not respond until going to press.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Surya »

julie!!!!! :eek:

well chetak do you have to depress us more?? :)


Italy is proving to better run than us

they have convicted an ex PM and at least have made a middleman squawk

here it will go into the CBI pit
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

rohitvats wrote:Accordingly, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and notwithstanding the claims of each country, both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments.
This officially gives up India's claim over Pak Occupied Kashmir. A crystal clear treason.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Prem Kumar wrote:This is what Ajai Shukla wrote about Siachen earlier this year

http://www.ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012 ... round.html

I am surprised to see his name in the list of delegates
Well, to be fair to few of the names there, Gen Katoch did mention that 3-4 of the delegates did put in their objection on the final draft but were overruled. Maybe Col. Shukla was one of those who objected.
RKumar

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by RKumar »

Quick google revealed ... but I agree not many are publishing it ... As far I can make it out, it has blessing of GoI and proposal is submitted to PM. If PM approves and stamp it then he will go to Pak.

Three steps to Siachen
October 8, 2012

India and Pakistan have been engaged in military-level Track 2 talks for the past 12 months, with the delegates of the two sides meeting in Dubai, Bangkok and finally in Lahore in September this year. Smaller “sub-group” meetings in Chiang Mai (Thailand) and Palo Alto (California) have also featured in the Track 2 process. A number of issues — among them Siachen, Sir Creek, confidence-building measures — were discussed at the meetings, where my participation as part of the Indian delegation brings me to share my take on the issue of demilitarisation of Siachen.

There are three aspects to the Siachen issue. The first, in my opinion, needs transparent action at the government level. The first aspect is why should India, in the first place, agree to any demilitarisation of Siachen when it holds the dominating high ground on Saltoro Ridge and can command the strategic region, thus preventing a China-Pakistan link up in the region? Why should India vacate Siachen when Indian Parliament has passed a resolution that the entire Jammu & Kashmir (including Pakistan-occupied Kashmir) is Indian territory?

Why should India repeat the case of returning Haji Pir Pass when there is a strong possibility that the Pakistan Army will reoccupy the Saltoro Ridge and we will never be able to take it back again? India has lost a total of 814 soldiers in Siachen since 1984, but now due to superior facilities and a better economy, we can remain there indefinitely. So why should the sacrifices of our soldiers be forgotten, and why should we vacate Saltoro Ridge when we hold all the cards? Why should India not link Siachen to other issues like Pakistan-sponsored terrorism? Given its sensitive and emotive nature, I feel that the Indian government would need to answer the question why.

The second aspect is when should India agree to demilitarisation of Siachen? Here also the Track 2 discussed the political instability and the possibility of early elections looming in India and Pakistan. This question of when can only be dealt with by the next government at the Centre.

The third aspect, which Track 2 discussed and finally agreed to a proposal, is how to demilitarise Siachen?

The official Indian stand on delineation and authentication is well known, and the Track 2 proposal has covered these aspects. The Pakistani team were worried that if they agreed to authentication of the AGPL (Actual Ground Position Line), India may stop further discussions on Siachen, once the authentication had been carried out. Hence, an “integrated” approach was agreed to.

The Track 2 proposals for “how to demilitarise Siachen” are “part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments”. The Track 2, Lahore “Siachen Proposal” of September 25, 2012, says “the following clear package of integrated and interlinked stipulations were laid down for the demilitarisation of the area and delineation of the line”:

* Setting up a joint commission to delineate the line beyond NJ 9842, consistent with existing arrangements
* The present ground positions would be jointly recorded and the records exchanged
* The determination of the places to which redeployment would be affected would be jointly agreed
* Disengagement and demilitarisation would occur in accordance with a mutually acceptable timeframe. (Esta-blishment of a joint working group has been proposed, in a separate annexure.)
* Prior to withdrawal, each side will undertake to remove munitions and other military equipment and waste from its area of control
* Ongoing cooperative monitoring of these activities and the resulting demilitarised zone would be agreed to for ensuring transparency.

The concluding paragraph of the Track 2 proposal reads: “In keeping with the Simla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration, both sides should undertake that resolution of this issue is a bilateral matter and that there will be no change in the status of the area, and also that no personnel of any third country will be permitted within it, unless cleared by the two countries jointly.”

I have written earlier that Track 2 is not a magic wand, which can solve complicated problems between India and Pakistan. It can only provide some possible solutions for the consideration of Track 1 discussions. The proposals on how to demilitarise Siachen are doable, provided the Indian government answers the questions of why and when.

The Track 2 teams of both countries have done their job, and now it is up to the two governments to make the next move.

The writer, a former vice-admiral, retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam
Track II finds a path to Siachen solution
1 October 2012, New Delhi, Pinaki Bhattacharya

The proposal suggested by a joint committee will be presented to India and Pakistan for further action. A Track II proposal on dealing with the Siachen problem has been suggested by an Indo-Pak joint committee recently in Lahore. The committee was jointly chaired by retired Gen Jahangir Karamat, a former Army chief of Pakistan and retired Air Chief Marshal, SP Tyagi, of the Indian Air Force. The meetings took place last week in Pakistan.

The proposal will now be presented to respective governments in Islamabad and New Delhi for further action.

The proposal suggests that both the sides, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the ‘Siachen dispute,’ and ‘notwithstanding the claims of each country,’ should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the ‘option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments.’

The committee stipulated that the two State-parties - set up a joint commission to delineate the line beyond NJ 9842, consistent with existing agreements.

The present ground positions would be jointly recorded and the record exchanged. The determination of the places to which redeployment will be affected would be jointly agreed.

Disengagement and demilitarisation would occur in accordance with a mutually acceptable time frame to be agreed.

And finally, Prior to withdrawal, each side will undertake to remove ammunitions and other military equipment and waste from areas of its control. and finally, the ongoing cooperative monitoring of these activities and the resulting demilitarised zone would be agreed to ensure/assure transparency.
No need to demilitarise Siachen Glacier
Oct 26, 2012 New Delhi: Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy today urged Prime Minister Manmohan Singh not to accept any proposal to demilitarise the Siachen Glacier.

In a letter to Singh, he said Track 2 teams comprising military officers from India and Pakistan are learnt to have recommended to the Government to demilitarise Siachen Glacier area where "814 soldiers have died so far".

"I expect you will not agree to such an abject surrender of a strategic area," Swamy wrote.

The Janata Party chief also met Defence Minister A K Antony to raise the issue.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

I think the stratagem in this round of Track II seems to be something like this:

1. Facilitate ex-military and ex-foreign/Intel services to get together and form a group. On the face of it, this will seem to be a private initiative of concerned and experienced professionals. This gives it legitimacy and an air of neutrality (from political perspective).

2. However, ensure that the group consists of the right type of people who can steer the discussion and agenda in a particular direction. Again, on the face of it, these 'insiders' would carry credibility with the larger audience comprising of general public and media.

3. So, while the group takes the views of everyone, the 'core group' ensures that the agreement is as per the 'advise' of the political leadership.

4. Once this paper is prepared, 'present' it to the GOI as an assessment of a group of independent and professional people who integrity and motives cannot be doubted.

5. What this does is, it facilitates the GOI and MMS cabal to implement their Siachen Peace Park Plan without being seen as riding roughshod against military advice - the GOI can be seen as agreeing with a group of prominent and eminent ex-military professionals.

6. The only stumbling block can be the COAS - and we are yet to see how this card is played. Also, the crooks in the media can be used to play the Army versus ex-Army angle and show how there is lack of clarity and consensus within the professionals and hence, Army's case is not water tight. This gives leeway for the politicians to put a foot in the door.

This is a very clearly thought out and well gamed strategy being implemented by the MMS coterie. Look at the some of the pointers:

- Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal is part of the dialogue process and from what I understand, part of the 'Core Group' which drafted the parameters of agreement. His position on the Siachen issue is well known and we have already seen his proposal on the structure.

- The Siachen proposal is nothing but rehash of the original proposal presented by Kanwal along with an ex-PA Brigadier in 2007. So, what has been 'agreed' in 2012 was already formulated in 2007.

- The above is not a mere coincidence - the deep state on PA side and 'powers-that-be' on India's side would have already agreed in advance on this. The meetings and workings of the group are simply a ploy to give formal shape to what has been agreed.

- On top of it, they have used an ex-CAS to be leader of the Indian delegation.

- The Group was briefed by the people in GOI and they in turn briefed 'Very Senior' people in GOI. Also, it would require some help to cobble such a group together. Who paid for their travel and stay? Who facilitated the entire process?

We need to watch out for the developments. The usual suspects will start crawling out of their worm holes.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by vishvak »

Just pointing out that not one meeting is held by educated establishment for any confidence building measures after it is clear that it was the paki army that was behind kargil invasion. Measures could include withdrawal of paki forces from pak occupied regions to International boundary, safe flying zone enforced by Indian Air Force over pak occupied Indian territory and so on amongst many more.

Not one reason made visible on requirement of confidence building measures post kargil war by educated establishment.
chetak
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Received by email
Dear Air Marshall Tyagi,



I have read the communications between you and Lt. Gen Katoch and have also received several emails on the subject. I am afraid your response to Gen Katoch is unsatisfactory and in fact confirms our worst fears. Your contention: “We were not appointed by any Government Agency nor do we have anything do with the Govt of India” does not make any sense whatsoever. Since when territories of sovereign India have become ‘real estates’ for private individuals belonging to two different countries to trade, negotiate and arbitrate upon?



Your adverse reference to Gen Katoch and Kunal Verma cannot be countenanced. While the former was Siachen Brigade Commander the latter has written a fine, well-researched and illustrated Book on Siachen which I have read from cover to cover. Besides being patriotic citizens, they are also emotionally attached to the Siachen Glacier.



Be that as it may, in order to clean up the air and provide an opportunity for you and your Track II colleagues to explain things, I herewith pose 12 Questions which I would like you to respond ASAP:



i. Who appointed the Track II Team, who are the members and what are their credentials and what is their service record in the Siachen area?

ii. Who briefed the Track II Team – NSA, Defence Secretary, MoD, MEA?

iii. Did the Track II Team visit Siachen before inking the agreement?

iv. Was the decision of Track II Team unanimous? If not on what authority the dissent was suppressed-PMO, NSA, Defence Secretary?

v. Decision to demilitarize Siachen has grave military consequences. Were the three Service Chiefs consulted on this? If not why not?

vi. This issue has serious strategic, deployment, logistics, demographic, displacement, cost and time implications for the Army. Were they consulted and the matter discussed with the Northern Army Commander? If not why not?

vii. After ‘demilitarisation’ what measures will be required to check terrorist infiltration (including Taliban) and how effective will it be as compared to our defences and counter infiltration forces in Kashmir Valley?

viii. Is it merely a Track II initiative? If so why were the members briefed by Government officials before the Lahore meet? Were they not told that this team is “as good as Track I”? Does it not make it official?

ix. NSA is stated to have briefed the leader of the Track II Team and one/two members separately? If so why? To firm up a secret deal?

x. The whole process, particularly signing of the Track II agreement was kept under wraps and one came to know of it only through the Website of a foreign agency. Why this secrecy?

xi. On whose orders did some select members of Track II Team along with Ambassador KC Singh, justify the agreement at a meeting in India International Centre on 3rd October?

xii. Most importantly, why was such a major decision not discussed in Parliament and in Public? Has the President of India been kept informed?

Awaiting an early response. I am copying this mail to Gen Katoch and Kunal



M.G.Devasahayam IAS (Retd)
chetak
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Received by email. Looks like lots of folk are agitated.


Code: Select all

I just cannot believe it…please read on

 

Army

 

I just cannot believe that General Deepak Kapoor was known to be a fraud as a Major and still made it to Army Chief.

 

I just cannot believe that Lt Gen Tejinder Singh was the military intelligence czar (DIA Chief) and that he met Abhishek Verma once or twice though he had no working relationship with him.

 

I just cannot believe that Lt Gen Thamburaj sold Army land to a private developer and he feels that he is being singled out (which means there are bigger fish involved).

 

I just cannot believe that Lt Gen Avdesh Kumar met Mr. Dilip Agarwal (a developer) and does not remember who the other General was with him at that time.

 

I just cannot believe that Lt Gen Jatinder Singh could train the country’s best youth and still make a fast buck while hiring Clerks, Cooks and Dhobis.

 

I just cannot believe that Karan Thapar believes that Gen VK Singh is the worst army Chief, even much worse than his own father (Gen PN Thapar) who lost a simple war in modern history.

 

Navy

 

I just cannot believe that Admiral Madhvendra Singh was one of the finest CNS the Navy had till he was allotted an Adarsh Flat.

 

I just cannot believe that two Admirals were sent as Ambassadors for delaying INS Vikramaditya instead of being court-martialed for wasting tax payer’s money

 

I just cannot believe that Admiral Arun Prakash whose close relation is on the run (in the Navy War Room case) talks about the impropriety of Gen VK Singh talking too much after retirement.

 

Air Force

I just cannot believe that ACM NAK Browne stated that the result of the 62 war would have been different had the Air Force been deployed. What he didn’t state was which Air Force – The IAF or the USAF.

 

I just cannot believe that the Air Force was above all these scams in the last two years and then like magic comes along a VVIP Helicopter scam ensnaring one of their Chiefs.

 

Siachen Diplomacy

I just cannot believe that Indian Track 2 diplomats for all their competence had not visited the strategic area they were going to discuss with their hard core Pakistani counterparts.

 

I just cannot believe that the Siachen Group actually had a submariner (VADM AK Singh) even though no ice navigation is taught in any of the navy schools in India.

 

I just cannot believe that the Siachen Group also had a journalist (Col Ajai Shukla of Wake up Generals Fame) and that he chose to sleep over it till the whole Group was exposed by Katoch / Kunal / Devasahayam

 

And finally:

 

I just cannot believe that Gen VK Singh was offered an Ambassadorship and he said NO WAY. That’s what Generals are made of. You make us proud Sir.

 
chetak
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

AN E-MAIL FROM LT. GEN.(RETD) P.C. KATOCH IN A VETERANS' GROUP :

Dear All,

I had occasion to discuss the Siachen De-militarization Issue with Air Chief Marshal Tyagi (Retd) today during a break in the National Security Seminar at the USI. ACM Tyagi as you know was the Co-Chair of the Track II Team whose agreement with their Pakistani counterparts at Lahore to demilitarize Siachen was put on the net first by Atlantic Council of Ottawa that broke the news to the world, particularly Indians. Given below is the gist of our conversation.

1). To my query as to how the Track II Team was selected, he said that each and every member was individually selected by Atlantic Council of Ottawa and not by GoI. He has no idea how Atlantic Council of Ottawa got these names.

2). Queried about the source of funding, his response was that the complete expenses at various locales including in Pakistan were borne by Atlantic Council of Ottawa (implying travel, stay, meetings, the works which obviously would be five star). I then asked him if he knew that both the Atlantic Council of Ottawa and Atlantic Council of US are actually extensions of Pakistani Army and funds would obviously be coming from the Pakistani Military / ISI. He said “so be it” but their job was only dialogue.

3). I then asked him which government officers briefed the Track II Team and what exactly was the content of such briefings? He said that it is the Track II Team that asked for briefing from MEA and the Military. The MEA briefing was largely about the visit of our Foreign Minister to Pakistan and this briefing had NO mention of Siachen, and the Track II Team also asked NO questions about Siachen (rather strange !). In the briefing by the Military, the Military categorically stated they did not want demilitarization from Siachen.

4). I further asked when the MEA did not give any directions for demilitarization and the Military was categorically against it, why did our Track II Team agree to demilitarization? He responded that this was their individual view. I expressed astonishment why such an agreement was signed in the first place. To this, he said no one affixed their signatures and it was not an agreement but really an account of what was discussed. I pointed out that the document talks of 'agreement' and not 'record of discussion' but he insisted there was no agreement.

5). I asked him what the de-briefings were after the various meetings. He said there were no de-briefings but a report was sent by the Track II Team to the Raksha Mantra, MEA, NSA and Service Chiefs (some other members maintain that after each visit the Track II Team did get in touch with MEA and Military representatives).

6). I asked him why the Indian public has been kept in the dark and why not put out a statement in the media. He said that my article had already done that.

7). He then asked me whether I still consider their actions as “treason”? I replied I was more convinced now that without any directions by MEA towards demilitarization and our Military firm on NO demilitarization, this “Private Body”, as stated in his e-mail, had still gone ahead to discuss and agree to withdraw from Indian Territory in violation of both the Constitution of India and the 1994 Parliament Resolution reiterating that entire J&K is part of India. He then said he had erroneously mentioned “Private Body”. Actually, they were “individuals” in their own private capacity. When I pointed out that he was the Co-Chair, he said he had acted in his individual capacity and had absolutely “no control” over the other Track II Members. Their conversation was akin to the discussion he was having with me. I said I do not agree as the two are hardly comparable when a strategic issue like withdrawal from territory is being discussed at international level with a military heavy Pakistani body. His response was that I was welcome to my views and he would not like to continue the discussion any further. At that juncture he also said the he had received some questions by someone called Devasahayam but he was not going to respond to any questions from any quarter. I had other questions but the conversation had ended abruptly.


You may draw your own conclusions from the above including examining why an organization like Atlantic Council of Ottawa funded by the Pakistani Military /ISI would spend millions to hold conferences in different exotic locales and with what aim. It is not without reason that the Supreme Court of Pakistan recently ordered the Pakistani Government to take legal action against General Mirza Aslam Beg and General Asad Durrani for distributing millions of rupees among politicians to rig the 1999 general elections while both held the appointments of Pakistani Army Chief and Director General ISI respectively. There is definitely more to this murky affair than meets the eye.

I am sending this e-mail to you as you have been keenly watching this development and so would your friends in your own groups, many of whom have joined the debate on the net.

Warm regards.

Prakash.
Paul
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Paul »

ACM Tyagi is a well connected person. IIRC It was on his intervention after retirement that the Akash orders for the IAF were cut down to the present number.
chaanakya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

chetak wrote: I then asked him if he knew that both the Atlantic Council of Ottawa and Atlantic Council of US are actually extensions of Pakistani Army and funds would obviously be coming from the Pakistani Military / ISI. He said “so be it” but their job was only dialogue.
[/quote]

Well Kashmir interlocutors were also gracious guests of Fai funded by ISI . How deep ISI has penetrated Indian establishment?
Last edited by chaanakya on 03 Nov 2012 22:51, edited 1 time in total.
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