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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2012 20:14 
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CCS clears army's proposal on anti-tank missiles: The Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared an Indian Army proposal worth Rs 1,000 crore to procure anti-tank missiles from Russia, said reports.


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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2012 20:15 
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Is it the 10000 Invar missile deal for T 90 tanks?


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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2012 20:32 
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Austin wrote:


What a piece of crap, who is this Gautam Datt ??? An existing douche bag or a new addition ??? What does he mean to convey by saying "cling on" ??? As if the said scientists would starve to death otherwise !!! Their is nothing wrong in giving extension to people who are specialists in their field.


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PostPosted: 26 Oct 2012 09:52 
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Sagar G wrote:
Austin wrote:


What a piece of crap, who is this Gautam Datt ??? An existing douche bag or a new addition ??? What does he mean to convey by saying "cling on" ??? As if the said scientists would starve to death otherwise !!! Their is nothing wrong in giving extension to people who are specialists in their field.

Kudos to MOD/DRDO is retaining these worthies.. the names listed looks like a whos-who of Indian Mil-Defence... am glad that they are well motivated and in good health to soldier on... hats of to Dr VKS.


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PostPosted: 26 Oct 2012 18:26 
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Aditya_V wrote:
chandanus wrote:
Hi my Nimbupani wala tells me that ..critical success achieved in some area of some super dooper missile..not sure to reveal it here or not .....!!!! :D !!


Ask him if the information is classified, if it is , we are better off not hearing about it.


Its classified .... :roll: !!!


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PostPosted: 26 Oct 2012 18:33 
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Sagar G wrote:
Austin wrote:


What a piece of crap, who is this Gautam Datt ??? An existing douche bag or a new addition ??? What does he mean to convey by saying "cling on" ??? As if the said scientists would starve to death otherwise !!! Their is nothing wrong in giving extension to people who are specialists in their field.


Some one like Suresh Kalmadi who is the pay of Foreign Agents


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PostPosted: 26 Oct 2012 23:07 
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chandanus wrote:
Hi my Nimbupani wala tells me that ..critical success achieved in some area of some super dooper missile..not sure to reveal it here or not .....!!!! :D !

Ask him if the information is classified, if it is , we are better off not hearing about it

Its classified .... :roll: !!!


one hopes it was the hyper sonic missile test


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PostPosted: 26 Oct 2012 23:46 
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Kudos to MOD/DRDO is retaining these worthies.. the names listed looks like a whos-who of Indian Mil-Defence... am glad that they are well motivated and in good health to soldier on... hats of to Dr VKS.


Its a good decision but is it really necessary to publish their names and/or images ? They can be easily sought out and possibly exploited by foreign agencies.


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PostPosted: 27 Oct 2012 00:00 
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In Us they have companies that hire them out ot the govt as consultants to ensure the talent is not lost. And moreover to ensure no loss to other side.
I wonder why self preservation is so difficult for modern Indians to understand?
Some disgruntled underling will whine to a reporter who thinks he has breaking news and publishes it to get his two seconds of fame.


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PostPosted: 31 Oct 2012 23:23 
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Akash missile proj director dies of cardiac arrest
he was 58 :(

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19733


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 02:16 
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Surya, Life expectancy for most SDRE men is around 55. Sorry to hear about his death. Deepest sympathies for the family and his group.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 02:40 
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That does not mean conspiracy angle should not be investigated. but RIP. Akash will lead to many improved SAM and contribute to India's Air defence.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 09:14 
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Ramana,

just an aside

avg life expectancy for all males in India is 64.6 years

and for people from the scientist's background perhaps even higher.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 10:46 
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All depends on lifestyle and luck like food habits, air, water. 100 pc of my paternal nd maternal uncles are docs profs or engg. In father side none crossed 60, most fell by 55. On ma side all are over 65 with the oldest around 85 now with not a scratch.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 14:37 
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What was the last news on the k-100 novator. Hasnt it been in development for quite some time now?


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 15:08 
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More then the K-100 I would want to know, whats going on with the Astra project. There is absolutely no news about the project. It was supposed to undergo flight test from Su-30 in beginning of 2013. However, I doubt that will take place.


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PostPosted: 01 Nov 2012 16:09 
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Is it possible at all to integrate the K-100 into the AWACS platforms that India will procure in the future? This is apart from being intgrated into the frontline fighters but it is important that the AWACS has a stand off self defence measure as well.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 09:17 
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technically feasible but again why should a huge missile be needed for AWACS. it should be able to detect fighters from 500km away and vector the nearest interceptor squad or run for cover if nothing is available...@ 850kmph to the rear. nearly impossible with current fuel loads for a fighter to start from say 450km away and chase down a AWACS thats retreating at 800kmph. it will generally always fly with a escort of couple fighters if any threat is envisaged.

perhaps a Mig31 Foxhound armed with a high lofted edge of space weapon like a AAD-AAM could do it....climb to 70,000ft and release a couple of these to climb to 120,000ft and then start a mach5 dive onto target.....

imo we are better off adapting the ground launched Shourya to this anti awacs/anti tanker role.....no real size or fuel payload limitations of launch platform.......and it is hypersonic and flies at 120,000ft just the kind of dog we need to chase the hares down.

I know Septimus would strongly approve :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 13:04 
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ramana wrote:
In Us they have companies that hire them out ot the govt as consultants to ensure the talent is not lost. And moreover to ensure no loss to other side. I wonder why self preservation is so difficult for modern Indians to understand? Some disgruntled underling will whine to a reporter who thinks he has breaking news and publishes it to get his two seconds of fame.


Ramana, there is two aspects to leadership - perform & sustain.

In the perform role, a leader should lead to functional success (Eg successfully managing a project in civil scenario or winning a war in a military scenario). Indians see leaders only in this light.

What our Indians psyche completely misses is the sustain role - building a great organization with leaders at all levels. Very few Indian civil or military leaders actually do that.

The reason Sardar Patel, Sam Manekshaw or Ronnie Pereira are remembered is because they built institutions. Sam created independent leaders at junior, middle & higher levels who could lead us to victory at all levels.

Sidhoji Gujar & Kanhoji Angre build & led strong navies. However they didn’t build institutions. Hence that Navy crumbled to dust 37 years after his death.

We very rarely hear about Fakir Chand Kohli. He built TCS, led it initially & then passed it to successors. He created a self sustaining institution, that thrives even when the market is bad. It is still the market leader.

N R Narayanamurthy & his initial team started Infosys and everyone began worshipping them. Unfortunately, while they were successful in the perform role, they ignored the sustain role. They didn’t groom leaders at every level of the organization.

Unfortunately, “great leaders” are not immortal, nor can they work at full efficiency forever. When they step down, the high, middle & junior leadership, used to following orders from great leaders all their lives. This retards their ability to lead themselves. Their lack ability to independently function under circumstances that’ve invariably changed from the time elapsed since great leader’s time.

This is the reason why Infosys is in a poor shape today while TCS & Cognizant are going great. TCS & Cognizant face same business challenges as Infosys, but their junior, middle & higher management are more agile and unencumbered by great leader's baggage.

Cognizant, Datamatics, i-flex CEO's were all ex-TCS. Why? Because TCS is a leadership factory for itself & the industry.

Creating, idolizing & worshipping great leaders is a horrible flaw in the Indian Psyche. This phenomenon leads to our downfall in the long run despite initial successes.

The article doesn’t touch this issue, but if these honorable gentlemen had built a good organization, then the next level of leaders should have been ready.

They can always resign from their leadership roles on reaching retirement age, and be around as technical advisors.

If there is a need for these people to be still leading their functions, it is clear that the next generation of leaders is not ready. Or they’re stifling the next generation.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 19:12 
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my explanation is simpler and based on 15 yrs of skulking around the trenches.

take the mahabharata - people our grandpa's age like dronacharya and bheesma is full battle armour were very much in hands -on mode and there were a lot of powerful warriors in the next age age band of 35-50 - kings and allies from all over the realm.

in my opinion there are too few hands on people anymore at the senior levels anymore....focus shifts to running meetings, "operations", revenue planning , figuring how to please the next level up....very little to no interest in solving the real technical problems which bring home the butter end of day. and this not only renders a lot of seniors very process driven and non hands on but ties up many technical people in meetings attempting to explain in kids terms what these seniors do not want to slog and understand...ie even those who want to do real work have some time hijacked by these overlords just so they can ask some 'smart' and 'sharp' questions in endless reviews and feel confident they understand the big picture(they dont!)

atleast thats my exp in itvity.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 19:29 
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mody wrote:
More then the K-100 I would want to know, whats going on with the Astra project. There is absolutely no news about the project. It was supposed to undergo flight test from Su-30 in beginning of 2013. However, I doubt that will take place.

Not sure why a discussion on this pops up every year or so considering, there have been no news on this even on russian side and even the report suggesting K-100 jv was speculative and there was no confirmation. It make little sense to procure a missile that can be carried by only one platform and to counter a specific threat...


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 19:47 
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John wrote:
It make little sense to procure a missile that can be carried by only one platform and to counter a specific threat...

I disagree! The importance of AWACS is phenominal. In war any country that scores even 1 or 2 AWACS kills can impart devastating phycological effect on its opponent. Specially if the opponent is china. Novotor-100 (if it ever enters production) is a must for IAF.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:06 
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Imo novator made sense if had the foxhounds to climb fast to 70,000ft and release.

He better and only option now and more scary is a modified shourya that will either explode a massive 500kg shrapnel warhead of release a half dozen of derby missiles for terminal hunt. Being powered flight at 120,000 ft is a massive advantage in endgame energy and overall range vs a climb, burnout , glide weapon like a typical long range aam of aa9 or k100 type.

You could release a shourya from bagdogra, have it overfly all of sikkim and smack a plaaf awacs orbiting over lhasa with a 250kg payload.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:16 
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Boreas wrote:
John wrote:
It make little sense to procure a missile that can be carried by only one platform and to counter a specific threat...

I disagree! The importance of AWACS is phenominal. In war any country that scores even 1 or 2 AWACS kills can impart devastating phycological effect on its opponent. Specially if the opponent is china. Novotor-100 (if it ever enters production) is a must for IAF.

The same job can still be done by Su-30mki with any BVR missile it is not that easy to protect a large target even with squardon of escort fighters, heck even back in later days of WW2 B-17s had a high loss rate from lone Luftwaffe fighters in spite of having dozens of P-38s escorting them.

Also keep in mind K-100 with its large size can be intercepted by newer generation of AAM, so fire and scoot will do no good if all K-100s are intercepted. So main strategy should to be to keep escorts occupied while one or 2 interceptor go in for the kill.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:24 
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@Singha

Good... but that will need a lots of further technology development. Can be a option for future. But imo not feasible in coming decade even with most optimistic timeline.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:35 
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John wrote:
The same job can still be done by Su-30mki with any BVR missile it is not that easy to protect a large target even with squardon of escort fighters, heck even back in later days of WW2 B-17s had a high loss rate from lone Luftwaffe fighters in spite of having dozens of P-38s escorting them.

Also keep in mind K-100 with its large size can be intercepted by newer generation of AAM, so fire and scoot will do no good if all K-100s are intercepted. So main strategy should to be to keep escorts occupied while one or 2 interceptor go in for the kill.

Not completely disagreeing with what you saying.

However that is an option open for everybody (PAF and PLAAF).. hence the edge which a K-100 may provide won't be their.

Secondly unlike K-100, a fighter based attack will have a VERY high overhead, that includes lives of pilots as well as cost of planes. Hence it won't be an easy decision to make for a commander. When using a a salvo of 2-3 K-100 the risk factor for opponent airforce will be very high, with minimum collateral damage for our air force.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 20:44 
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Imo this problem is easier or similar than the irbm as asbm problem which the df21c claims to have solved.

Friendly awacs or passive elint birds like rafale get the radiations of hostile awacs or locate the aar tankers from big range like 600km. Shourya gets fired onto predicted position of awacs in the time shourya will take to close the distance. If enemy changes direction, mid course update is a must...being powered and operating at 40km, change of course is possible. Finally the shourya itself csn mount a big radar of 200km range and releas terminal homers or blast the retreating awacs from the top.

We can do it if we work and fund it ...maybe it will take 5 yrs to test a proof of concept and 8 yrs to ioc.

Lack of news on further tests and developments on shourya is infact encouraging..we could be cooking up some nasty stuff down that channel under cover of prithvi tests.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 21:56 
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Boreas wrote:
Secondly unlike K-100, a fighter based attack will have a VERY high overhead, that includes lives of pilots as well as cost of planes. Hence it won't be an easy decision to make for a commander. When using a a salvo of 2-3 K-100 the risk factor for opponent airforce will be very high, with minimum collateral damage for our air force.

Not sure how having K-100 protects the aircaft from being intercepted, ideal firing range of K-100 will be around 200 km vs around 60 km for BVR missile, so it won't take much for escort aircraft to intercept the Su-30mki post K-100 launch. Even worse if Su-30mki carrying the gigantic K-100 gets intercepted by Su-30MKK, they will have little chance of survival in dog fight unless they dump the missiles'. Keep in mind even China was offered a chance to fund K-100 and they also passed up that opportunity.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 22:27 
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The PAK-FA should be able to do what the Mig-31 does, with super cruise it is the best platform for shoot and scoot with a -20dBm RCS to boot.


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PostPosted: 02 Nov 2012 22:45 
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John wrote:
Not sure how having K-100 protects the aircaft from being intercepted, ideal firing range of K-100 will be around 200 km vs around 60 km for BVR missile, so it won't take much for escort aircraft to intercept the Su-30mki post K-100 launch. Even worse if Su-30mki carrying the gigantic K-100 gets intercepted by Su-30MKK, they will have little chance of survival in dog fight unless they dump the missiles'. Keep in mind even China was offered a chance to fund K-100 and they also passed up that opportunity.

K-100 will have a range of 300km (not 200km). Which in some cases will make it possible to shoot an AWACS without crossing indian border. Carrier planes can even get coverage of local SAM network!

Even otherwise anybody who shoots and returns from 200-250KM away has much better chances of getting home in one piece than the one shooting from 100-60km.


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PostPosted: 03 Nov 2012 08:38 
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LRSAM-MRSAM-Barak 2-8-NG etc whatever you call it is around 276kg and will have a range of 200-400km if launched as AAM. Further if booster equipped it will have a range of around 400-800 km range with weight around 1000-1500kg. AAD missile with weight of 1200kg should have range of 300-500km as air to air missile. But the difficulty is that in absence of DRDO middlemen it is very difficult to sell indigenous ideas. I vote for DRDO setting up middleman lab.


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PostPosted: 03 Nov 2012 08:45 
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I will bet my right leg the chinese are working on something to negate american superiority in awacs and tankers without which usa cannot maintain a hostile posture near areas of chinese interest. once that leg of the stool falls, the deficiences of all middling khan platforms in range and radar would be exposed.

maybe they will name it K-101 to honour the original concept.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012 13:57 
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How useful will a J-Stars type of aircraft in a theater like Tibet? Wouldnt the mountainous terrain bring is sharp line of sight restrictions warranting an "eye in the sky" for the ground movement as well? I am sure China will be planning for J-Stars kind of capability or might augment the ground modes in their AWACS craft to provide better situational awareness to their ground forces.

If so then the novator has another good target to be played against. Expect our PAK-FAs to initially target these 2 types of aircraft with the K-100s, if the K-100 joint work story is true.


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2012 21:19 
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Any info on the nirbhay missie? It was suppose to be tested in October.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2012 08:43 
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pavankv wrote:
Any info on the nirbhay missie? It was suppose to be tested in October.


It is postponed to December due to delay in making new launcher for the missile.
This information was posted some days ago in this thread itself.
But I am doubtful about December as well.

I am disgusted with this culture in Indian government run companies, which happens because of basic corruptive, selfish people and reservations instead of quality. So, i stopped thinking about India's wellbeing. It is just waste of time for people like us. We are in the middle of 99.9% irresponsible, careless, mindless people.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2012 19:59 
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^^^

Hasn't TATA has come up with a 12*12, which forms of launch vehicle for the Prahar. That being the case, why, is Tatra having an effect on the Nirbhay program.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2012 19:59 
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kvraghavaiah wrote:
I am disgusted with this culture in Indian government run companies, which happens because of basic corruptive, selfish people and reservations instead of quality.


Which "company" are you indicating ???

kvraghavaiah wrote:
So, i stopped thinking about India's wellbeing.


OH MY GOD !!!!!!!!!!!! India is doomed..........

kvraghavaiah wrote:
It is just waste of time for people like us. We are in the middle of 99.9% irresponsible, careless, mindless people.


Why such a higher order person like yourself choose to be between "irresponsible, careless, mindless people" hain ji ????


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2012 20:06 
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Pratyush wrote:
^^^

Hasn't TATA has come up with a 12*12, which forms of launch vehicle for the Prahar. That being the case, why, is Tatra having an effect on the Nirbhay program.


DRDO has absolutely no problem in using an indigenous solution but that would mean delay in testing and induction of the missile which will be a problem for our defence capabilities, since if a new vehicle is used now all the testing and integration's done on the older one would have to be done on the newer vehicle as well which will lead to delay. This is exactly what DRDO has pointed out in it's letter.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2012 20:28 
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A truck for missile carrying is truck designed for missile carrying. Then why is truck substitution such a huge issue.


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PostPosted: 07 Nov 2012 20:52 
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Pratyush ji,

The Tata 12 X 12 is the carrier for Nirbhay. Tata had made it clear before at DefExpo'12.

But a launcher is not just the truck bed. I am pretty sure you understand that :)


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