Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
actually i am starting to warm to the idea. the pinaka-NLOS-TCS can likely be halved from current size and still command a useful range of 20km....long enough to safely be outside any form of MANPAD/SRSAM range and long enough to shoot from behind cover / behind the next ridgeline.
just because anyone else hasnt deployed it yet shouldnt be cause to kill the messenger. there is a strange and compelling logic in the idea given our rather SPARSE road infra in fwd areas.
infact match up these special Mi17 and their crews to the pinaka regiments ! and in that way use the pinaka's where they can reach , but potentially reach out another 100km in any direction and vastly expand the damage potential of each pinaka regiment. the ground units reload chain also supplies the airborne unit. only thing is the size of rockets are different.
in support of deep strike SF action, a couple of these Mi17 could tag along with the apaches/LCH and chinooks and launch a devastating initial volley of rockets in the first min of the engagement.
there's a lot of fun to be had with these platforms.
just because anyone else hasnt deployed it yet shouldnt be cause to kill the messenger. there is a strange and compelling logic in the idea given our rather SPARSE road infra in fwd areas.
infact match up these special Mi17 and their crews to the pinaka regiments ! and in that way use the pinaka's where they can reach , but potentially reach out another 100km in any direction and vastly expand the damage potential of each pinaka regiment. the ground units reload chain also supplies the airborne unit. only thing is the size of rockets are different.
in support of deep strike SF action, a couple of these Mi17 could tag along with the apaches/LCH and chinooks and launch a devastating initial volley of rockets in the first min of the engagement.
there's a lot of fun to be had with these platforms.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Singha Ji,
The point is the tactical utility of such a setup. When you have battlefield attack options ranging from arty to Pinaka to Prahar. Having such an option on an Mi 17 is an overlap in capability. Not to mention very expensive way of doing things.
The point is the tactical utility of such a setup. When you have battlefield attack options ranging from arty to Pinaka to Prahar. Having such an option on an Mi 17 is an overlap in capability. Not to mention very expensive way of doing things.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Pinaka launch image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Looking forward to the day when Pinaka have wings to add to its gliding range.
Just like stand off bomb
Just like stand off bomb
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
sarabpal.s wrote:Looking forward to the day when Pinaka have wings to add to its gliding range.
Just like stand off bomb
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
So far no signs that ia is interested in prahaar.
Does russia have a similar system we could import at huge cost and trouble perhaps ?
Does russia have a similar system we could import at huge cost and trouble perhaps ?
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.
Its more fun to work with my brain switched off.
Its more fun to work with my brain switched off.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
If we want a gigantopithecus airborne artillery system like this, we would need Il-76 type aircraft. The 8" Pinaka rocket even in shortened form would shake apart any chopper when fired singly, forget in a volley. OTOH, practically the same effect can be had with a guided air to ground missile in a much smaller package. Which is why things are as they are.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
When a Pinaka is launched it lets off a huge plume of white hot gases.The Mi 17 intakes will ingest that plume soon after launching one of those brutes. I suppose the robotic arm would cover the nose of the intakes with two robotic fingers and prevent it from breathing at that time? The flight control software could be made to do that.
Its much more fun to work with my brain switched off.
Its much more fun to work with my brain switched off.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Victor wrote:If we want a gigantopithecus airborne artillery system like this, we would need Il-76 type aircraft. The 8" Pinaka rocket even in shortened form would shake apart any chopper when fired singly, forget in a volley. OTOH, practically the same effect can be had with a guided air to ground missile in a much smaller package. Which is why things are as they are.
While we are at it why not mount the whole Pinaka system on the IL-76, Tatra Truck and all so that the IL-76 fires rockets out of its backside.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Will wrote:Victor wrote:If we want a gigantopithecus airborne artillery system like this, we would need Il-76 type aircraft. The 8" Pinaka rocket even in shortened form would shake apart any chopper when fired singly, forget in a volley. OTOH, practically the same effect can be had with a guided air to ground missile in a much smaller package. Which is why things are as they are.
While we are at it why not mount the whole Pinaka system on the IL-76, Tatra Truck and all so that the IL-76 fires rockets out of its backside.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Flying artillery took on a new meaning when the AC-130 Spectre packed both a 40mm cannon and a 105mm howitzer firing out the side. Theoretically, the Il-76 could carry a 155mm Bofors pointing out the back.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
You all got it wrong. We actually need this ::
Maybe the russians will install smerch launchers instead of cannons.
Maybe the russians will install smerch launchers instead of cannons.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Singhaji, hopefully the utility part is covered, while BM-21 grad rockets might work, its the actual launch mechanism and how the TCS helps this is still not clear
1) I believe Trajectory Correction System is launcher based where launch tube elevation angle and orientation are set before firing the unguided rocket, it becomes tricky since all this somehow would have to be handled by launch tubes on a vibrating pylon not to mention recoil forces and smoke ingestion
2) Instead if the rocket itself is made capable enough, in launch phase it is released into the slip stream, a small booster is fired and a nose cap gives it the required angled orientation and then blown off (inspired by Brahmos launch sequence and it is reliable enough), the small booster is dropped and the actual rocket takes off, the terminal stage is GPS guided for precision and given that the Mi-17's are used by a number of operators, such unique capability gives us brand differentiation
Bala Vigneshji, how about a 4 ship formation?
Praytushji, while transport fleet size is a larger issue as long as the Choppers remain with AAC they might not complain, and in addition to redundancy, a demo solution implemented on Mi-17's can be the first cut followed by revision two on the medium lift chopper to be developed by HAL where the rockets are optimized
OK, my reloads are over and we are a bunch of crabs
1) I believe Trajectory Correction System is launcher based where launch tube elevation angle and orientation are set before firing the unguided rocket, it becomes tricky since all this somehow would have to be handled by launch tubes on a vibrating pylon not to mention recoil forces and smoke ingestion
2) Instead if the rocket itself is made capable enough, in launch phase it is released into the slip stream, a small booster is fired and a nose cap gives it the required angled orientation and then blown off (inspired by Brahmos launch sequence and it is reliable enough), the small booster is dropped and the actual rocket takes off, the terminal stage is GPS guided for precision and given that the Mi-17's are used by a number of operators, such unique capability gives us brand differentiation
Bala Vigneshji, how about a 4 ship formation?
Praytushji, while transport fleet size is a larger issue as long as the Choppers remain with AAC they might not complain, and in addition to redundancy, a demo solution implemented on Mi-17's can be the first cut followed by revision two on the medium lift chopper to be developed by HAL where the rockets are optimized
OK, my reloads are over and we are a bunch of crabs
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
MANPADS are not a threat if we know they are located at the target. Say, a C2 center or ammo dump. What makes MANPADS deadly is their ability to spread out and target unsuspecting helis. How can we say a NLOS-Pinaka-Mi-17 wont be tageted by a sneaking MANPAD? And if we are using this within our side of the border won't a regular Pinaka be better? both interms of range and usable tonnage?Singha wrote:actually i am starting to warm to the idea. the pinaka-NLOS-TCS can likely be halved from current size and still command a useful range of 20km....long enough to safely be outside any form of MANPAD/SRSAM range and long enough to shoot from behind cover / behind the next ridgeline.
there's a lot of fun to be had with these platforms.
I think the element of surprise will be lost.in support of deep strike SF action, a couple of these Mi17 could tag along with the apaches/LCH and chinooks and launch a devastating initial volley of rockets in the first min of the engagement.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
this thread has officially gone nuts
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
No. An Il 76 is too lumbering. It should be mounted on a Dornier. Nimble, small and stealthy.Victor wrote:Theoretically, the Il-76 could carry a 155mm Bofors pointing out the back.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
No no not on Helicopter,As some BRites taken my point but launched from ground than reaching the maximum height than Pinaka rocket with help of popup wings glide toward target. wings can help gliding to extend range just like stand off weapon dropped from aircraft.RoyG wrote:sarabpal.s wrote:Looking forward to the day when Pinaka have wings to add to its gliding range.
Just like stand off bomb
Although US tried some rocket from Chinook during Vietnam unsuccessfully
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
shiv wrote:No. An Il 76 is too lumbering. It should be mounted on a Dornier. Nimble, small and stealthy.Victor wrote:Theoretically, the Il-76 could carry a 155mm Bofors pointing out the back.
Hakim Janab,
The recoil of the very first shot will take out the aircraft itself...
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Well i suppose a bunch of sdb will do this better i have to admit
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
True although the US has mounted a 105mm gun on a C-130, together with a Gatling gun and a 40mm bofors cannon...chetak wrote:
Hakim Janab,
The recoil of the very first shot will take out the aircraft itself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Singhaji, sdb still needs altitude to achieve its standoff range unless they could do a pop-up maneuver gaining few kms of altitude so thatSingha wrote:Well i suppose a bunch of sdb will do this better i have to admit
1) the Mi-17 could still fly with decent nos
2) the sdb can clear high mountains
the ballistic path of rockets does this by default
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
I have read somewhere that ARC uses Lakshya.
Why does it require Lakshya?
Is it employed in any other role other then as a target aircraft?
Won't Nishant be better?
Why does it require Lakshya?
Is it employed in any other role other then as a target aircraft?
Won't Nishant be better?
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Vasu Raya, can you take your rather um... innovative suggestions to the Newbie thread please. I really don't think this thread is meant to discuss mounting Pinaka rockets on frickin Mi-17s.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
+1000Surya wrote:this thread has officially gone nuts
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
nachiket, just a correction, the discussion was about air launch of NLOS rockets from Mi-17 as a concept, at the realization level 20km range got a half-hearted nod and sdbs were proposed, meanwhile the local Khap panchayat is after Pinaka which is now classified as an outlier
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Vasu,vasu raya wrote:Singhaji, sdb still needs altitude to achieve its standoff range unless they could do a pop-up maneuver gaining few kms of altitude so thatSingha wrote:Well i suppose a bunch of sdb will do this better i have to admit
1) the Mi-17 could still fly with decent nos
2) the sdb can clear high mountains
the ballistic path of rockets does this by default
What I don't understand is why this fixation on the Mi17??? I mean its an utility vehicle, designed to carry supplies to the troops and the troops themselves, why not let it do what it is designed for and let this business be taken care of heli's designed for this role..
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Message from Mi-17 to BRF Jingos: "Leave me ALONE!!"Bala Vignesh wrote:What I don't understand is why this fixation on the Mi17??? I mean its an utility vehicle, designed to carry supplies to the troops and the troops themselves, why not let it do what it is designed for and let this business be taken care of heli's designed for this role..
But seriously though: time to move this discussion to some other thread before the admin drones start taking too much interest in this little fun party here...
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Good stuff from Ranjan as usual.A Sharma wrote:NDTV show on helicopters
Note:
1. Aux fuel tanks are pictured for first time in the IAF (though common elsewhere)
2. Some of the V5s have conventional clam sheel type doors ... others with the more modern ramp. what gives?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
vivek_ahuja wrote: Message from Mi-17 to BRF Jingos: "Leave me ALONE!!"
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
While we are on the topic of choppers, instead of the IL 76, instead of retiring the Mi 26 we should just have them lift a Pinaka system and hover over the battlefield and fire rockets. I bet the MI 26 should have no probloem lifting a Tatra truck . Its flexibility you see. Use it on the ground when needed and in the air whenever needed.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Yes I agree. Neither the Mi 26 nor the Pinaka systems would be sitting ducks. At worst they would be flying, shootin' ducks.Will wrote:While we are on the topic of choppers, instead of the IL 76, instead of retiring the Mi 26 we should just have them lift a Pinaka system and hover over the battlefield and fire rockets. I bet the MI 26 should have no probloem lifting a Tatra truck . Its flexibility you see. Use it on the ground when needed and in the air whenever needed.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
seriously do folks see a role for AC130 style gunship using a modded AN32 "G" - 40mm cannon and a gatling gun.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
The fact is that India posses neither the NLOS nor the SDB at the moment. The SDB by its very nature is a weapon to be deployed from a high seed platform. Read not suitable for a helo launch. Coming to NLOS, given the nature of the weapon and the likely range. Its functioning is largely independent of the launch platform. That being the case launching it from a helo is doesnot really give great a boot in terms of war fighting ability. While your suggestion has the disadvantage of removing a Mi 17, from tpt duties. Without a major gain in war fighting capabilities.vasu raya wrote:nachiket, just a correction, the discussion was about air launch of NLOS rockets from Mi-17 as a concept, at the realization level 20km range got a half-hearted nod and sdbs were proposed, meanwhile the local Khap panchayat is after Pinaka which is now classified as an outlier
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Nice and grilledshiv wrote:Yes I agree. Neither the Mi 26 nor the Pinaka systems would be sitting ducks. At worst they would be flying, shootin' ducks.Will wrote:While we are on the topic of choppers, instead of the IL 76, instead of retiring the Mi 26 we should just have them lift a Pinaka system and hover over the battlefield and fire rockets. I bet the MI 26 should have no probloem lifting a Tatra truck . Its flexibility you see. Use it on the ground when needed and in the air whenever needed.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
not in any of the theatres we expect to be in. those ships made sense for anti VC ops in the jungleSingha wrote:seriously do folks see a role for AC130 style gunship using a modded AN32 "G" - 40mm cannon and a gatling gun.
our wars are fought in much denser air defense environments
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
No I don't see a role. Not because it's not effective or attractive. But I think that was a product of an industry and economy that had excess and was able to develop machines for niche roles. The C-130s in an environment of total air dominance and the equipment - C-130, Gatling and everything else including the ability to achieve air dominance (AEW, SEAD, comm) were all manufactured in the US and every penny spent on the war was spent in feeding one's own military industrial complex, workers salaries and employment. In that environment it made sense. For India I don't see sch a situation arising anytime soon.Singha wrote:seriously do folks see a role for AC130 style gunship using a modded AN32 "G" - 40mm cannon and a gatling gun.