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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2012 11:47 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Would be Much better if India's private sector is allowed to Compete. Someone see the irnoy here, foreign private countries compete while India's private sector is kept out.

We cant even make our own ammunition?


Pvt. companies don't have a magic wand that will solve India's arms woes. Before you can compete you need a knowledge,technology and a manufacturing base which our pvt. sector severely lacks and can only gain through decades of sustained research. Things are getting better but it is going to take time (i.e. decades) before our pvt. sector starts providing engg solutions to our armed forces.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2012 11:59 
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Sagar G-> with Respect to Small Arms like INSAS, developing Rifles etc. are now the monopoly of OFB, We need private Co.'s I agree they have no magic wand, but I am sure we have have the techincal ability for mass produced small arms, assault rifles, SMG, Holograhic sights etc

We don't need multi million dollar contracts importing baretta SMG's and or importing G36C or M-4 carbines. or even import 7.62* 39 Ammo or 5.56*45 NATO Ammo.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2012 12:25 
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Talk about sights.... I have a (maybe OTT) pooch.

What is the state of desi precise machining... w.r.t lenses/prisms? All my life I have been a four-eyes and I am told *everytime* that the lens is videshi and the grinding (adjuster) machines are videshi. Reflex Sights, ACOG, Holographic sights are not-so-advanced techs but still they require a "tech legacy" and infrastructure right?


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2012 12:42 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Sagar G-> with Respect to Small Arms like INSAS, developing Rifles etc. are now the monopoly of OFB, We need private Co.'s I agree they have no magic wand, but I am sure we have have the techincal ability for mass produced small arms, assault rifles, SMG, Holograhic sights etc

We don't need multi million dollar contracts importing baretta SMG's and or importing G36C or M-4 carbines. or even import 7.62* 39 Ammo or 5.56*45 NATO Ammo.


Even if we have the technical ability, only that is not enough for indigenization. One thing you should note that pvt. companies will only come in when there are massive orders and profit is a guarantee. Add to that the will of political as well as our defence forces to indigenize products and then you need to work hard to achieve your target be it a pvt. or govt. establishment. OFB has a monopoly now cause it has the required knowledge,technology and production base to support small arms research and manufacturing, for pvt companies to come into the picture they would have to gain the three mentioned things.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2012 12:51 
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Sagar G wrote:
Pvt. companies don't have a magic wand that will solve India's arms woes. Before you can compete you need a knowledge,technology and a manufacturing base which our pvt. sector severely lacks and can only gain through decades of sustained research. Things are getting better but it is going to take time (i.e. decades) before our pvt. sector starts providing engg solutions to our armed forces.

Unless they're designing some super duper XM29 rifle, the knowledge, tech and manufacturing base to manufacture a fairly modern small arm is already in the hands of India's private sector manufacturers. After all, people do make bicycles, cars, chemicals etc. in India and a lot of the same tech is also used there. Hey, if a small time Austrian guy that used to make plastic curtain rods, metal belt buckles and door hinges in his garage can become a major world-class handgun manufacturer, there shouldn't be any reason that a large Indian manufacturing giant can't get into the act. The only reason why they don't do so is because of Indian laws that make OFB the monopoly that it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2012 13:33 
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ArmenT wrote:
Unless they're designing some super duper XM29 rifle, the knowledge, tech and manufacturing base to manufacture a fairly modern small arm is already in the hands of India's private sector manufacturers. After all, people do make bicycles, cars, chemicals etc. in India and a lot of the same tech is also used there. Hey, if a small time Austrian guy that used to make plastic curtain rods, metal belt buckles and door hinges in his garage can become a major world-class handgun manufacturer, there shouldn't be any reason that a large Indian manufacturing giant can't get into the act. The only reason why they don't do so is because of Indian laws that make OFB the monopoly that it is.


I don't disagree that pvt companies can't do it just pointing out that it will require time before they reach a level of maturity in arms manufacturing.
What you said about Indian laws are absolutely true and one of the big reasons why pvt. companies shy away from arms manufacturing, that's the reason why I said before that having the tech is not enough to overcome our indigenization woes, multiple disciplines would have to converge before a proper mil-indt. complex comes up not just in the case of small arms but in totality of arms manufacturing. The unions in PSU's also resist competition under pressure of which govt. gives in, this also deters the process of indigenization.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2012 08:52 
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Insas in Black and with a UBGL. Looks pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2012 10:15 
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The guy handling it unlike the soldiers around doesnt look like he is experienced in using firearms, hence fiddling a bit, looks a relatively new development, not the earlier version which was fired with blanks from the muzzle.

Does the M-4 UBGL has a 400 M range like the DRDO one? The M-4 UBGL looks more compact.

Wish they replace the wooden stock with lighter material and add a holographic sight.

Like the rotary grenade launcher also on the table, is it an Indian product?


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2012 11:05 
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Aditya_V wrote:
The guy handling it unlike the soldiers around doesnt look like he is experienced in using firearms, hence fiddling a bit, looks a relatively new development, not the earlier version which was fired with blanks from the muzzle.

Could also be tightness/brittleness of some parts. User reports by jonahpach and cottagecheese at I4G forum noted in 2010 that quite a few factory-made guns needed some refitting work by army armorers after they unpacked them because some parts were rather tight. Also, some plastic parts (such as the hand guards) were prone to breaking easily and also the alidade (the part that blocks the gas port and also acts as the front sight when using the UBGL) was made of rather thin sheet metal which could easily bend when rotating it. I'm posting two pics from cottagecheese's long report here showing what the alidade is:
Image
Image

Aditya_V wrote:
Does the M-4 UBGL has a 400 M range like the DRDO one? The M-4 UBGL looks more compact.

Yes, the M-4 UBGL is called the M203 and has a max. range of 400 meters as well.

Quote:
Wish they replace the wooden stock with lighter material and add a holographic sight.
Like the rotary grenade launcher also on the table, is it an Indian product?

Foregrips, pistol grip and stock are all made of plastic, not wood. Incidentally OFB is outsourcing some of that stuff to private manufacturers. Neelkamal plastics (the guys that make plastic chairs and tables) was one of the contractors making the INSAS mags a while back. Here we have a tender notice for supplying butt plastic dated from May 2012.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2012 20:50 
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Next generation holographic weapon sight by P T Ajith Kumar- Video

Quote:
Next generation holographic weapon sight helps in improved aim sights for weapons. It has field level applications in defense wherein shooting arms need easy and sharp aiming, and clear field of view, The proposed sight element improves all these parameters, and aims to improved stability, sharpness, transparency and high diffraction efficiency of the weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2012 10:12 
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Armen T, correct me if I am now the we have our own UBGL, the Alidade may be redundant, since we no longer need to fire grenades by fixing them at the end of a barrel and firing a blank.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2012 10:39 
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Aditya_V wrote:
The guy handling it unlike the soldiers around doesnt look like he is experienced in using firearms, hence fiddling a bit, looks a relatively new development, not the earlier version which was fired with blanks from the muzzle.


I think he is an officer who is talking and demonstrating something. Combined with silly music about having to move like Mick Jagger it looks as if he is fiddling.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2012 11:22 
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Daily Telegraph picture of the day Oct. 25th
Head armorer of Ahmedabad performing puja on rifles on Vijayadashmi day :).


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 19:59 
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Ordnance factory staff fear job insecurity

TRICHY: Employees of the Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Wednesday staged a demonstration against the ministry of defence for deciding to stop procuring small rifles from OFT and three other government rifle factories. The move, according to employees, would give the impression that their jobs were not secure.

As many as 1,600 OFT technical staff owing allegiance to various employees unions demanded that the ministry allow OFT, Ordnance Factory in Nalanda, Small Arms Factory in Kanpur and Rifle Factory in Ishapore to go on with manufacturing of rifles with state-of-the-art features for supply to the Indian Army instead of importing such arms from foreign countries and allowing private companies to manufacture arms in India.

Members of employees unions such as National Defence Workers Union-INTUC, OFT Employees Union, Kamaraj Padaikkala Thozhilalar Sangam (KPTS) affiliated to Bharathiya Mazdoor Sangam (BMS), LPF and other unions began their protest from Tuesday by wearing black badges.

On Wednesday, they staged a demonstration in front of the factory in the morning. They will conduct a rally on Thursday and may go on strike if the MoD does not pay heed to their demand.

S Chandrasekaran, president of the National Defence Workers Union-INTUC, said, "OFT and three other government arms factories have been manufacturing small rifle 5.56mm INSAS for supply to the Indian Army since 1999. OFT manufactured 4.5 lakh 5.66 mm INSAS rifles so far. As the Indian Army recently decided to procure multipurpose rifles, MoD decided to stop procuring small rifles from OFT after March 2013. OFT now has to supply 19,300 5.56mm INSAS rifles to the Indian Army to reach this year's target."

The move is worrying employees as most of the technical staff are engaged in small rifle manufacturing in OFT. So, they feel the decision to stop manufacturing small rifles would affect their job security.

"Nearly 70% of our staff are involved in small rifle manufacturing. Rest of us are engaged in other arms like under barrel grenade launchers (UBGL). By stopping the manufacture of small rifles, our staff could suffer financial loss as they will not get overtime duty and other benefits," he added.

Chandrasekaran also said, "Moreover, the government has decided to import multipurpose rifles from Israel and Austria and allow private companies for rifle manufacturing even though the rifle factories are equipped to produce such arms. Last year, OFT staff designed the latest rifle called 'Trichy Assault Rifle'(TAR). After putting it to various experiments, the MoD shelved the idea to procure TAR for the Indian Army for unknown reasons."

At this juncture, the home ministry, MoD and the board of ordnance factories are going to meet on October 12, 2012, to decide on the issue.

"If they do not consider our demand, we will go on strike," said Chandrasekaran.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 22:14 
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Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:
Unless they're designing some super duper XM29 rifle, the knowledge, tech and manufacturing base to manufacture a fairly modern small arm is already in the hands of India's private sector manufacturers. After all, people do make bicycles, cars, chemicals etc. in India and a lot of the same tech is also used there. Hey, if a small time Austrian guy that used to make plastic curtain rods, metal belt buckles and door hinges in his garage can become a major world-class handgun manufacturer, there shouldn't be any reason that a large Indian manufacturing giant can't get into the act. The only reason why they don't do so is because of Indian laws that make OFB the monopoly that it is.


I don't disagree that pvt companies can't do it just pointing out that it will require time before they reach a level of maturity in arms manufacturing.
What you said about Indian laws are absolutely true and one of the big reasons why pvt. companies shy away from arms manufacturing, that's the reason why I said before that having the tech is not enough to overcome our indigenization woes, multiple disciplines would have to converge before a proper mil-indt. complex comes up not just in the case of small arms but in totality of arms manufacturing. The unions in PSU's also resist competition under pressure of which govt. gives in, this also deters the process of indigenization.


I agree. We should let the private sector take over much of the defence production and R&D.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 22:20 
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ArmenT wrote:
Daily Telegraph picture of the day Oct. 25th
Head armorer of Ahmedabad performing puja on rifles on Vijayadashmi day :).


That is very apt because all those rifles are Enfield .303 bolt action
Only a Devine providential blessing can make them operational in real use, of course like our deterrent if wielding one such non performing rifle works to deter a thief, enemy ....
Best of luck

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 22:30 
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A Sharma wrote:
Ordnance factory staff fear job insecurity

TRICHY: Employees of the Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Wednesday staged a demonstration against the ministry of defence for deciding to stop procuring small rifles from OFT and three other government rifle factories. The move, according to employees, would give the impression that their jobs were not secure.

As many as 1,600 OFT technical staff owing allegiance to various employees unions demanded that the ministry allow OFT, Ordnance Factory in Nalanda, Small Arms Factory in Kanpur and Rifle Factory in Ishapore to go on with manufacturing of rifles with state-of-the-art features for supply to the Indian Army instead of importing such arms from foreign countries and allowing private companies to manufacture arms in India.

Members of employees unions such as National Defence Workers Union-INTUC, OFT Employees Union, Kamaraj Padaikkala Thozhilalar Sangam (KPTS) affiliated to Bharathiya Mazdoor Sangam (BMS), LPF and other unions began their protest from Tuesday by wearing black badges.

On Wednesday, they staged a demonstration in front of the factory in the morning. They will conduct a rally on Thursday and may go on strike if the MoD does not pay heed to their demand.

S Chandrasekaran, president of the National Defence Workers Union-INTUC, said, "OFT and three other government arms factories have been manufacturing small rifle 5.56mm INSAS for supply to the Indian Army since 1999. OFT manufactured 4.5 lakh 5.66 mm INSAS rifles so far. As the Indian Army recently decided to procure multipurpose rifles, MoD decided to stop procuring small rifles from OFT after March 2013. OFT now has to supply 19,300 5.56mm INSAS rifles to the Indian Army to reach this year's target."

The move is worrying employees as most of the technical staff are engaged in small rifle manufacturing in OFT. So, they feel the decision to stop manufacturing small rifles would affect their job security.

"Nearly 70% of our staff are involved in small rifle manufacturing. Rest of us are engaged in other arms like under barrel grenade launchers (UBGL). By stopping the manufacture of small rifles, our staff could suffer financial loss as they will not get overtime duty and other benefits," he added.

Chandrasekaran also said, "Moreover, the government has decided to import multipurpose rifles from Israel and Austria and allow private companies for rifle manufacturing even though the rifle factories are equipped to produce such arms. Last year, OFT staff designed the latest rifle called 'Trichy Assault Rifle'(TAR). After putting it to various experiments, the MoD shelved the idea to procure TAR for the Indian Army for unknown reasons."

At this juncture, the home ministry, MoD and the board of ordnance factories are going to meet on October 12, 2012, to decide on the issue.

"If they do not consider our demand, we will go on strike," said Chandrasekaran.


OFB had a golden chance and they blew it. INSAS, it appears is a drasticly over priced weapon with very poor fit, finish and reliability. Seems like a good design was wasted by poor manufacturing and qualit control.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 02:30 
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A Sharma wrote:
Ordnance factory staff fear job insecurity

TRICHY: Employees of the Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Wednesday staged a demonstration against the ministry of defence for deciding to stop procuring small rifles from OFT and three other government rifle factories. The move, according to employees, would give the impression that their jobs were not secure.

As many as 1,600 OFT technical staff owing allegiance to various employees unions demanded that the ministry allow OFT, Ordnance Factory in Nalanda, Small Arms Factory in Kanpur and Rifle Factory in Ishapore to go on with manufacturing of rifles with state-of-the-art features for supply to the Indian Army instead of importing such arms from foreign countries and allowing private companies to manufacture arms in India.

Members of employees unions such as National Defence Workers Union-INTUC, OFT Employees Union, Kamaraj Padaikkala Thozhilalar Sangam (KPTS) affiliated to Bharathiya Mazdoor Sangam (BMS), LPF and other unions began their protest from Tuesday by wearing black badges.

On Wednesday, they staged a demonstration in front of the factory in the morning. They will conduct a rally on Thursday and may go on strike if the MoD does not pay heed to their demand.

S Chandrasekaran, president of the National Defence Workers Union-INTUC, said, "OFT and three other government arms factories have been manufacturing small rifle 5.56mm INSAS for supply to the Indian Army since 1999. OFT manufactured 4.5 lakh 5.66 mm INSAS rifles so far. As the Indian Army recently decided to procure multipurpose rifles, MoD decided to stop procuring small rifles from OFT after March 2013. OFT now has to supply 19,300 5.56mm INSAS rifles to the Indian Army to reach this year's target."

The move is worrying employees as most of the technical staff are engaged in small rifle manufacturing in OFT. So, they feel the decision to stop manufacturing small rifles would affect their job security.

"Nearly 70% of our staff are involved in small rifle manufacturing. Rest of us are engaged in other arms like under barrel grenade launchers (UBGL). By stopping the manufacture of small rifles, our staff could suffer financial loss as they will not get overtime duty and other benefits," he added.

Chandrasekaran also said, "Moreover, the government has decided to import multipurpose rifles from Israel and Austria and allow private companies for rifle manufacturing even though the rifle factories are equipped to produce such arms. Last year, OFT staff designed the latest rifle called 'Trichy Assault Rifle'(TAR). After putting it to various experiments, the MoD shelved the idea to procure TAR for the Indian Army for unknown reasons."

At this juncture, the home ministry, MoD and the board of ordnance factories are going to meet on October 12, 2012, to decide on the issue.

"If they do not consider our demand, we will go on strike," said Chandrasekaran.


OFB had a golden chance and they blew it. INSAS, it appears is a drasticly over priced weapon with very poor fit, finish and reliability. Seems like a good design was wasted by poor manufacturing and qualit control.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 02:51 
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pentaiah wrote:
ArmenT wrote:
Daily Telegraph picture of the day Oct. 25th
Head armorer of Ahmedabad performing puja on rifles on Vijayadashmi day :).


That is very apt because all those rifles are Enfield .303 bolt action
Only a Devine providential blessing can make them operational in real use, of course like our deterrent if wielding one such non performing rifle works to deter a thief, enemy ....
Best of luck

Image


With a decent scope you could engage a target easily at 500-600 meters. The 7.62X51 round packs quite a punch. They are giving a hard time to coalition forces in Afghanistan.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 10:42 
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pentaiah wrote:
ArmenT wrote:
Daily Telegraph picture of the day Oct. 25th
Head armorer of Ahmedabad performing puja on rifles on Vijayadashmi day :).


That is very apt because all those rifles are Enfield .303 bolt action
Only a Devine providential blessing can make them operational in real use, of course like our deterrent if wielding one such non performing rifle works to deter a thief, enemy ....
Best of luck

Image

If the head armorer puts a little holy oil into those actions occasionally and cleans them before performing puja, there's no reason they should not work beautifully. If the personnel who use them regularly clean and practice firing with them, they are very effective. It is a real shame that the Mumbai railway police guards at CST didn't have adequate training or range time, otherwise they could have cleaned out Kasab and the other fella's clock before they went too far. For one thing, they outrange an AK easy and have great accuracy. And they have a decent rate of fire as well (20-30 rounds a minute is achievable by a trained person). Enfields did pretty well in the hands of Indian troops in quite a few wars.

Incidentally, the Ishapore version of Lee-Enfield (i.e. the 2A and 2A1) is one product that OFB actually manufactures well and it has a good reputation outside India as well. The 2A is a Lee-Enfield Mk III redesigned by SDREs to fire 7.62x51 NATO. The rifle is affectionately known to Western shooting fans as the "Ishy". Just google for "enfield ishy" or "ishy rifle" and you'll see how many people are fans of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 11:04 
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I hope rather than importing from Israel and Austria, they privatize OFB,OFT and let the Indian private sector complete. One of the complaints of Uncle in 2002 was they did not have enough control on us to back down when they wanted to. Depending on Israel and Austria fir even small and ammunition is a receipe for disaster. Yes Insas quality can be improved, but aint rubbish either, some of the comments online like oil dripping, too noisy orginate from from Defence.pk, we know the credibility of those.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 11:25 
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Forget about foreign countries trying to control India's policies, it looks like the local lads are doing just fine in that respect.
A Sharma wrote:
Ordnance factory staff fear job insecurity

TRICHY: Employees of the Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli (OFT) on Wednesday staged a demonstration against the ministry of defence for deciding to stop procuring small rifles from OFT and three other government rifle factories. The move, according to employees, would give the impression that their jobs were not secure.

As many as 1,600 OFT technical staff owing allegiance to various employees unions demanded that the ministry allow OFT, Ordnance Factory in Nalanda, Small Arms Factory in Kanpur and Rifle Factory in Ishapore to go on with manufacturing of rifles with state-of-the-art features for supply to the Indian Army instead of importing such arms from foreign countries and allowing private companies to manufacture arms in India.

So they want no competition at all, to ensure 400% job security eh. Maybe they should apply for jobs in one of those private companies that will be allowed to manufacture small arms in India.

A Sharma wrote:
"By stopping the manufacture of small rifles, our staff could suffer financial loss as they will not get overtime duty and other benefits," he added.

Overtime duty eh? How come the staff doesn't finish their work in normal working hours? Are they so overworked to not be able to produce 19000 rifles in a year among 4 different factories?

A Sharma wrote:
Chandrasekaran also said, "Moreover, the government has decided to import multipurpose rifles from Israel and Austria and allow private companies for rifle manufacturing even though the rifle factories are equipped to produce such arms. Last year, OFT staff designed the latest rifle called 'Trichy Assault Rifle'(TAR). After putting it to various experiments, the MoD shelved the idea to procure TAR for the Indian Army for unknown reasons."

Now that's a sense of entitlement if I've ever seen one. TAR wasn't shelved by MoD for unknown reasons at all. The reason is pretty well documented (i.e.) caliber. They should ask why the CRPF, BSF and state police forces are not using it.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 13:55 
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but regardless of what people think, I think there is some talent in OFB which should be wasted

1) We cannot depend a foreign country for basic infantry weapons and ammunition

2) OFB staff are only ones who know how to make guns in this country, this should be privatised and wheat should be seperated from the chaff.

3) yes communist style unions will protest and many of these folks cannot be employed in any other civilian business, MY suggestion is just like CMC, Mordern foods were privatised, these factories should be as well


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 16:41 
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ArmenT Garu OF wallas are all not that bad but yeah the unions suck big time. As pointed out by Aditya_V OFB has talent and it should not be wasted MoD has to figure out a way to wean away the hold these unions have over PSUs and also to usher in a change the way PSUs do business.If done that I can assure you there is no dearth of talent in our PSUs and only false policies of GOI make them look so bad. Though saar I was once told by an OF employee with a straight face that "India can't prosper without privatization" :rotfl: So there you go sir people in our PSUs also care for the country as you and me and also they have their "baggage" as any other organization has.

ArmenT wrote:
Now that's a sense of entitlement if I've ever seen one. TAR wasn't shelved by MoD for unknown reasons at all. The reason is pretty well documented (i.e.) caliber. They should ask why the CRPF, BSF and state police forces are not using it.


TAR has been shelved :shock: Why saar please explain ???


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 16:56 
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ArmenT wrote:
Overtime duty eh? How come the staff doesn't finish their work in normal working hours? Are they so overworked to not be able to produce 19000 rifles in a year among 4 different factories?


:D I suspect this is a "blowback" effect. Not every worker is on the production line. Support staff like electricians, cleaners, bur drivers etc are also part of the union and they all get less work to do if the regular people are closing up shop at 5 or 6 PM


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 23:06 
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Pardon my ignorance but I have a little question, What exactly is the status of the OFBs? Is it PSUs(or are they multiple companies) or is it some thing like the Indian Railways?


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 12:46 
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Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:
Now that's a sense of entitlement if I've ever seen one. TAR wasn't shelved by MoD for unknown reasons at all. The reason is pretty well documented (i.e.) caliber. They should ask why the CRPF, BSF and state police forces are not using it.


TAR has been shelved :shock: Why saar please explain ???

Just to be clear and avoid potential confusions, when we say TAR, we're referring to the Trichy Assault Rifle, not the Israeli Tavor TAR21. TAR was never selected by MoD because they never asked for this rifle to be developed in the first place. They never issued a requirements spec or any document of that sort for it. Besides, the OFB guys designed the TAR to use 7.62x39 mm. cartridges (i.e. AKM caliber cartridges) which the IA doesn't "officially" use anyway (IA uses 5.56x45 mm. cartridges, which cannot be used in a TAR rifle). Therefore, any talk about MoD shelving the rifle for "unknown reasons" is just talk because they didn't bother to evaluate something that they never asked for and that too, in a caliber that they don't officially use.

On the other hand, TAR was demonstrated in front of BSF, CRPF, some state police officials etc. and during the trials, there was a jamming problem that occurred when operating the TAR in fully automatic mode. OFB wallahs acknowledged that there is a problem with the design that is causing this jamming issue. They claim that they know what to do and can fix the issue easily, but it will take several months to implement the fix, not because of technical difficulties, but because of the paperwork and official procedures that need to be followed since they are a PSU! Some of the buyers want the modifications made sooner because they don't want to wait so many months to re-evaluate and make a purchasing decision. By the way, these trials were carried out sometime last year and it is nearly the end of this year and as far as I know, OFB haven't announced that they have fixed the issue yet. So if the other organizations say that they are going to purchase arms from some other non-Indian manufacturer, can you really fault them for making that decision? There isn't an "unknown reason" for rejecting this rifle like Mr. Chandrasekaran is claiming, the OFB guys know the exact reasons why it was rejected and they still haven't fixed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 13:14 
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ArmenT wrote:
TAR was never selected by MoD because they never asked for this rifle to be developed in the first place. They never issued a requirements spec or any document of that sort for it. Besides, the OFB guys designed the TAR to use 7.62x39 mm. cartridges (i.e. AKM caliber cartridges) which the IA doesn't "officially" use anyway (IA uses 5.56x45 mm. cartridges). Therefore, any talk about MoD shelving the rifle for "unknown reasons" is just talk.


Saar I see this as a plus point that OFT went ahead and designed a rifle even without MoDs consent, this goes to show that we have talent in OF and the people are not lazy bums. Our SF uses these higher caliber cartridges right ??? So it was made as an AK replacement ???

ArmenT wrote:
OFB wallahs acknowledged that there is a problem with the design that is causing this jamming issue. They claim that they know what to do and can fix the issue easily, but it will take several months to implement the fix, not because of technical difficulties, but because of the paperwork and official procedures that need to be followed since they are a PSU!


I can guarantee you that the OF wallahs are saying the truth, fixing the design is not a big issue but the bloody paperwork involved in government businesses will get to the nerve of any man howsoever patient he is. It's because of this very reason that the PSUs suck, that's why I said previously the way government organizations do their work has to change, red tapism has to be given a quiet burial.


ArmenT wrote:
Some of the buyers want the modifications made sooner because they don't want to wait so many months to re-evaluate and make a purchasing decision.By the way, these trials were carried out sometime last year and it is nearly the end of this year and as far as I know, OFB haven't announced that they have fixed the issue yet. So if the other organizations say that they are going to purchase arms from some other non-Indian manufacturer, can you really fault them for making that decision?


With this attitude sir we will never be able to indigenize. If we want indigenization then we have to support domestic effort to the hilt even if it means to wait for a few more months.

ArmenT wrote:
There isn't an "unknown reason" for rejecting this rifle like Mr. Chandrasekaran is claiming, the OFB guys know the exact reasons why it was rejected and they still haven't fixed it.


We can overlook what "union leaders" have to say but I would surely like to know the take of the rifle designers on this issue. As for me it still isn't clear whether TAR has been shelved or OFT failed to fix the design issue or whether the design changes are still stuck on some babus desk (which is a very likely scenario).


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 13:42 
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ArmenT wrote:
By the way, these trials were carried out sometime last year and it is nearly the end of this year and as far as I know, OFB haven't announced that they have fixed the issue yet. So if the other organizations say that they are going to purchase arms from some other non-Indian manufacturer, can you really fault them for making that decision? There isn't an "unknown reason" for rejecting this rifle like Mr. Chandrasekaran is claiming, the OFB guys know the exact reasons why it was rejected and they still haven't fixed it.


Would the needlessly increased rate of fire have anything to do with it?? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 14:20 
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@sagarG
For the record, I didn't think the TAR was shelved either. I'm just quoting what the union leader said.

Sagar G wrote:
With this attitude sir we will never be able to indigenize. If we want indigenization then we have to support domestic effort to the hilt even if it means to wait for a few more months.

Sir, the OFB said that they'd have the issue fixed in 6 months or so (IIRC), but it has been nearly a year since then with no fix in sight (no pun intended) and they haven't announced any kind of estimated timeline for a fix either. While indigenization is a good idea, buyers have to be pragmatic as well and they cannot necessarily afford to be put on tenterhooks for an unknown timeline in the future. If the OFB design is good, it will be selected on its own merits by other organizations in India (such as other state police, coast guard, customs or paramilitary forces) when it is ready. Perhaps they can export it to other countries as well :).


Last edited by ArmenT on 14 Nov 2012 14:25, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 14:23 
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chetak wrote:
Would the needlessly increased rate of fire have anything to do with it?? :wink:

Yep, that's the exact cause. OFB was marketing the increased rate of fire as an advantage of the TAR vs. AK system. Unfortunately, it was determined that the increased rate of fire was also the reason for the jamming issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 14:44 
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ArmenT wrote:
Sir, the OFB said that they'd have the issue fixed in 6 months or so (IIRC), but it has been nearly a year since then with no fix in sight (no pun intended) and they haven't announced any kind of estimated timeline for a fix either.


But sir we don't know what exactly has happened with TAR ?? Whether it has been shelved or the design issues are being fixed we don't know so we would have to wait to see what happens with it.

ArmenT wrote:
While indigenization is a good idea, buyers have to be pragmatic as well and they cannot necessarily afford to be put on tenterhooks for an unknown timeline in the future.


Certainly but if the purchase is not as critical that it is threatening their operational efficiency then it wouldn't harm them to wait a bit or what they can do as has been done in the case of LUH. Fix a timeline in which to complete designing, trials and start production and tell them if you do this then this much order we will place or else with every delay your amount of order reduces as well.

ArmenT wrote:
If the OFB design is good, it will be selected on its own merits by other organizations in India (such as other state police, coast guard, customs or paramilitary forces) when it is ready. Perhaps they can export it to other countries as well :).


But the biggest push will definitely come if our defence forces place order for it. That will be a certificate of acceptance that yes this product is good enough to be used in combat situation. If our defence forces reject it on some flimsy ground then we can forget about the product, it's dead.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 15:09 
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Sagar G wrote:
<SNIP>But the biggest push will definitely come if our defence forces place order for it. That will be a certificate of acceptance that yes this product is good enough to be used in combat situation. If our defence forces reject it on some flimsy ground then we can forget about the product, it's dead.


And what is the flimsy ground on which the said system has been rejected?


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 15:19 
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rohitvats wrote:
And what is the flimsy ground on which the said system has been rejected?


We don't know yet whether the system has been rejected or not but lets consider if the system gets rejected because it came a bit late than required then it's a flimsy ground for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 15:29 
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Sagar G wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
And what is the flimsy ground on which the said system has been rejected?


We don't know yet whether the system has been rejected or not but lets consider if the system gets rejected because it came a bit late than required then it's a flimsy ground for me.


You don't know the issue yet, you frame a sentence in an accusatory tone as if this is what is going to happen.....doesn't that seem a bit contradictory to you?

As for the 'bit late' argument....a 'bit late' actually can mean a difference between life and death in many cases. WLR from DRDO was a bit late in 1999 as is the procurement for BPJ's for army. And BTW, a 'bit late' actually needs to be defined...how much is bit late and what is the ramification for the same. And it is time the DPSU and OFB got its act together in terms of supplying equipment on time and learning to compete against the private industry.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 15:36 
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rohitvats wrote:
You don't know the issue yet, you frame a sentence in an accusatory tone as if this is what is going to happen.....doesn't that seem a bit contradictory to you?


You seem to have not followed the discussion between me and ArmenT and come up with your conclusion in order to shout back at me. I humbly request you to go line by line about what I have said about this issue then we can talk about the part which you don't like.

rohitvats wrote:
As for the 'bit late' argument....a 'bit late' actually can mean a difference between life and death in many cases. WLR from DRDO was a bit late in 1999 as is the procurement for BPJ's for army. And BTW, a 'bit late' actually needs to be defined...how much is bit late and what is the ramification for the same.


Absolutely in agreement with you and I have also said about this in my previous post and my thoughts on that so please again I ask you to read my previous posts to ArmenT.


rohitvats wrote:
And it is time the DPSU and OFB got its act together in terms of supplying equipment on time and learning to compete against the private industry.


Again I agree with you, just get rid of the red tapism in them and then we will see both of them struggle out for the orders.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:15 
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Folks the web page of OFB Trichy has a "Right to Informaton" page. Why not send a letter and a cheque for Rs 10 for more info on the issue of what's up with TAR?


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 16:21 
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shiv wrote:
Folks the web page of OFB Trichy has a "Right to Informaton" page. Why not send a letter and a cheque for Rs 10 for more info on the issue of what's up with TAR?


Saar it also has a contact us page with e-mail id given, one can send a mail but the result will be the same. You won't get any reply, sarkari onleee :mrgreen:

Check the missile and munitions thread sir I have posted their something for you, waiting for your reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 10:09 
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Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:
While indigenization is a good idea, buyers have to be pragmatic as well and they cannot necessarily afford to be put on tenterhooks for an unknown timeline in the future.


Certainly but if the purchase is not as critical that it is threatening their operational efficiency then it wouldn't harm them to wait a bit or what they can do as has been done in the case of LUH. Fix a timeline in which to complete designing, trials and start production and tell them if you do this then this much order we will place or else with every delay your amount of order reduces as well.

Don't think that will work very well in this case. The problem with the scheme that you've proposed is: let's say that OFB don't meet the deadline. Therefore you place an order to only buy X items from OFB and Y items from another manufacturer. Now you have two separate weapons systems that you have to train with, maintain and service. Instead it is better to buy (X+Y) items from the same manufacturer (whether OFB or some other manufacturer), as you may get a better price per unit for them and it reduces your logistics and training headaches.

Another scenario that could be worse is that say OFB fails the deadline, so you buy Y items from another manufacturer and give OFB a new deadline. Say then OFB fails to meet the new deadline too. In this scenario, you now have to place a separate order of M items from the other manufacturer and hope that OFB meets the next deadline and so on. Now you have a problem of making sure that the items reach the appropriate units in time. Additionally, the purchasing expenses then go up because neither manufacturer can now give you a good price since you're now ordering in smaller batches from them.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Arms Thread
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 10:38 
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ArmenT wrote:
chetak wrote:
Would the needlessly increased rate of fire have anything to do with it?? :wink:

Yep, that's the exact cause. OFB was marketing the increased rate of fire as an advantage of the TAR vs. AK system. Unfortunately, it was determined that the increased rate of fire was also the reason for the jamming issue.


The core objective of any business is to efficiently convert customer requirements into cash in the bank.

That said, the secondary objectives of employees welfare and union pressure, corporate social responsibility, fears of job loss etc etc can only be addressed when the business makes money. Without cash in the bank that has been earned from the satisfied customer, the cart before the horse method never works.

Do not expect CUSTOMERS to support hare brained schemes of the producers.

Why was cyclic rate made the USP? who will carry the additional weight of extra ammo required? Which customer demanded a higher cyclic rate? and for what purpose??

Accuracy is the primary causality of a higher cyclic rate, in this case. Also, a frequently jamming weapon cannot be part of the design deliverables.

Customers do not owe the producers anything. If one producer tanks because of inherent contradictions, another producer, one who is less encumbered and more tuned to the market place will always emerge.

If one has fiddled with a vital parameter like cyclic rate without simultaneously addressing barrel dynamics then, either the customer requirements have not been properly understood or the requisite design capability is lacking and more importantly, the risk analysis has not been comprehensive. Was not Design Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (DFMEA) an integral part of the process?

Why are the customers' required to pull the producer's chestnuts out of the fire?


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