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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 16:54 
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shiv wrote:
Good hypothetical scenario. I have cross posted it in an appropriate thread for discussion. On this thread this is off topic.


No Issues with posting in an appropriate thread, but only problem is with the word "hypothetical".
My understanding is that this scenario is very much feasible in the foreseeable future (hypothetical only if either we don;t get PAK FA(serious issue ) or China is not able to deploy J 20 / 31 (good for us))


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 18:44 
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shiv wrote:
dhiraj wrote:
@year 2022 - Assumption : China has reasonably developed J 20 and J 31 and inducted a few squadrons (they are good in manufacturing and inducting in large numbers ) and provided 1 squadron each of J 20 and J 31 to Pakistan.

Now how is it going to affect the deep strike capability of Rafale and Sukhoi of the IAF. Will the scenario be something like the PAK FA will have the responsibility to clear the air space while the Rafale and Sukhoi follow them to perform the deep strike.

If that is the case then the availability of PAK FA by 2020 with all the features that have been promised in it becomes much more critical.
Another thing that needs to be analysed will be the conflict between two stealth fighters against each other, what will be the scenarios , how does one realign there operational tactics in both offensive / defensive situation and finally how does stealth and non-stealth fighters combine there capabilities to achieve optimum result.

Notwithstanding the engine development issues that China may be facing ( anyway we should not relax with this news when suddenly one day they showcase a brand new engine meeting there requirement and again we start playing catch up) , i think that with the speed with which they have shown the J 20 and J 31 to the world , and with the kind of secrecy that they will maintain about their capability , having 300 such fighters will definitely have a major psychological effect around the region and may even lead to a more aggresive China.

Any thoughts ?


Good hypothetical scenario. I have cross posted it in an appropriate thread for discussion. On this thread this is off topic.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6459&p=1363385#p1363385


Another issue that needs attention is the doctrine of engagement, SoP's etc. that one needs to develop. This takes time and comes with experience operating the platform. Its not like you just fly a stealthy plane into action expecting the other side to be blind about its presence. And this applies to everyone not only to the Chinese or may be pakis.


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 21:29 
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USAF!!??!!??!!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-trqqM_LkUSU/UBJL8 ... GFA-01.jpg


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 21:36 
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SaiK wrote:
USAF!!??!!??!!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-trqqM_LkUSU/UBJL8 ... GFA-01.jpg


good one :D
but they should have colored it all black like the gorgeous YF 23


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 21:55 
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Testing of the new engine for the PAK FA in 2014

Quote:
Scientific production association "Saturn" the beginning of a new engine for the preparation of the future fighter T-50 (PAK FA) for bench testing. On this, as reported by "and-mash," said Yevgeny Marchuk, General Designer, Director of the Scientific and Technical Center Cradles name, part of the "Saturn". Engine test in 2014.

"In iron engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing, will go to finishing. This - essentially a new engine, so it creates a long enough" - said Marchuk. According to him, the weight of the new power plant will be 30 percent less than that of the AL-41F1 ("Item 117", the modified version of the engine AL-41F1S for the Su-35), known as the engine of the first stage.

As expected, the life-cycle costs will also be almost a third less than that of the AL-41F1S and according Marchukova, "he should be cheaper." New engine for the PAK FA engine known as the second phase or "Type 30" will be significantly different from the currently used "Products 117". The latter will be installed in the first production car, until the end of the development of "Type 30".



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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 22:32 
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I want our team to be participative in these testing and dev works. I am still not sure what is in the deal?


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 03:30 
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SaiK wrote:
I want our team to be participative in these testing and dev works. I am still not sure what is in the deal?


It was reported that Russia offers a co-development in return for additional fundings of course, not sure if something was fixed in this regard yet, but we surely could only learn through such a developments.
Our deal is mainly about FGFA and the customisations about it, otherwhise we hardly can contribute since they started the developments before we really joint and we lack the necessary knowledge in many crucial fields. With our silly behaviour to turn any initial plan around (twin seat, single seat, both...), it's even better that the Russians have the lead in the main developments.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 03:37 
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Not too sure at this point in time, but, I think India has funded an engine.

My read is that when India says the PMF/FGFA will be diff than the PAK-FA/T-50, it also includes the engine. My feel is that the Russians, for whatever reason, are not able to afford the plane being designed-built for the IAF.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 03:49 
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NRao wrote:
Not too sure at this point in time, but, I think India has funded an engine.

My read is that when India says the PMF/FGFA will be diff than the PAK-FA/T-50, it also includes the engine. My feel is that the Russians, for whatever reason, are not able to afford the plane being designed-built for the IAF.


I think they can afford it, but developing a fully capable 5th gen Pak Fa needs more time too, that's why they compromise with a stealthy airframe, AESA and some modernised weapons, but stick to the engines and avionics of the Su 35BM / Su 34 to reduce the costs and keep the timeframe of induction in 2015.
IAF wants the whole deal and therefor has to wait till the final engine will be ready as well, it can't be just a coincidence that the first NG engine will be available for tests at the same time as the first FGFAs.
However, I still say we shouldn't waste time and have demanded that one T50 prototype will already be tested in India, even if it's ground tests only.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 05:39 
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SaiK wrote:
I want our team to be participative in these testing and dev works. I am still not sure what is in the deal?

According go Vayu India is in it wrt to composites (which form 25% of the weight and the avionics. Indian funding is about 50% IIRC. The second seat requirement was removed after it was known that stealth would be reduced by 15% by seat 2, apart from fuel/weight issues. A prototype will be tested in India starting 2014.


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 10:15 
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Some pictures

http://russianplanes.net/images/to92000/091532.jpg
http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/popup-100x100. ... _hires.jpg
http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events ... t-50-3.wbp


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 02:35 
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From a page on StupidBook called Indian Air Force | Garud Commando Force (don't know if its authentic or run by enthusiasts):

Quote:


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 11:28 
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via flateric ( use translator )

http://www.odnako.org/magazine/material/show_22213/
http://www.odnako.org/magazine/material/show_22216/


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 07:22 
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Fourth T-50 Stealth Fighter Flies

Quote:
MOSCOW, December 12 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fourth prototype Sukhoi T-50 stealth fighter jet took to the skies for the first time on Wednesday in a 40 minute flight at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur factory in Siberia, Sukhoi said.

"The fourth prototype PAK-FA made its first flight today from the Gagarin factory in Komsomolsk-on-Amur," Sukhoi said, referring to the aircraft by its project name, an acronym for future fifth-generation tactical fighter.

"The flight tested the aircraft's overall integrity and its main engines. The aircraft is making a good impression in all phases of the flying program," Sukhoi said.

The T-50, which will be the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a fifth-generation multirole fighter aircraft featuring low-observable technology (stealth), super-maneuverability, supercruise capability (supersonic flight without use of afterburner), and an advanced avionics suite including an X-band active phased-array radar.

The first prototype first flew on January 29, 2010.

The Russian Defense Ministry plans to purchase a first batch of 10 evaluation aircraft and then 60 production-standard aircraft after 2015.

Meanwhile, the Novosibirsk aircraft factory (NAPO) plans to deliver ten more Sukoi Su-34 strike aircraft to the Russian Air Force in the near future, the Air Force's Col. Andrei Bobrun said.

"The Novosibirsk factory will send another ten aircraft to the Voronezh air base in the near future," he said.


http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121212/178100717.html


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 22:01 
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T-50-4 Flies

Image: http://i.imgur.com/4CUDB.jpg
Image: http://i.imgur.com/GEiZ8.jpg
Image: http://i.imgur.com/jmmOs.jpg
Image: http://i.imgur.com/AQjde.jpg
Image: http://i.imgur.com/GcFFh.jpg


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 23:16 
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"ctrl +" or zoom on the http://i.imgur.com/GcFFh.jpg, now on the folded LERX wings you see rectangular marks - are these the L band aesa?


Last edited by SaiK on 13 Dec 2012 23:30, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 23:21 
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*** Self Deleted duplicate entry ***


Last edited by nits on 14 Dec 2012 11:52, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 23:55 
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^^^ Please check the 5 comments back.


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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 23:57 
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last month article dated, but then it is a carlo kopp gyan... nevertheless, the Indian FGFA could take these as inputs for modifications and constructive criticisms.

Quote:
Evaluating the PAKFA


The PAKFA will be very stealthy in most radar bands, from the S down to the L band, although not stealthy against UHF radars such as the E-2 Hawkeye’s APS-145 and the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye’s APY-9 or the UHF-ground based radars used by some Chinese air defense systems.

E-2 aircraft of all variants will have no problem detecting the PAKFA. The problem is that the PAKFA (or other Russian fighters) will likely use Novator “AWACS-killer” A2A missiles to kill the Hawkeye and thus strip the opponent of the ability to detect the PAKFA.

Generally stealthy otherwise, with two exceptions:

1) The PAKFA’s conventional engine nozzles are not stealthy and would thus produce a large radar wave return. This is a problem the PAKFA shares with the F-35, but it can be solved by producing slit engine nozzles, as Lockheed Martin did for the F-22.

2) The PAKFA’s beam fuselage component is deeply sculpted and therefore not stealthy.

other weaknesses:-

PAKFA, like the F-35, can carry only 4 A2A missiles internally,..By virtue of carrying twice as many missiles as the PAKFA, the F-22 stands a twice higher chance of killing the Russian fighter than of being shot down by it.

Irbis-E radar with which the PAKFA will likely be equipped is inferior to the F-22′s APG-77 radar.

PAKFA has a WORSE thrust/weight ratio and a WORSE wing loading ratio than the F-22. At 50% fuel plus a full internal missile load, the PAKFA has a T/W ratio of 1.19:1 and a wing loading ratio of between 330-470 kg/sq m, more likely closer to the higher than to the lower figure, while the F-22 has a T/W ratio of 1.26:1 and a wing loading ratio of 375 kg/sq m.

the rest of the story is a fine read however..


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 09:12 
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Hi Res pictures of T-50-4 released

http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events ... t-50-4.wbp


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 09:23 
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Austin wrote:


when you see the name 'Austin' in the forum activity, you can be pretty sure he has come bearing gifts. :D
Awesome


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 17:01 
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PAK-FA in black color, digital art. :) I draw this using Paint.NET and TwistedBrush Pro Studio v17.00.

Image

Seems img bbcode not working. anyway below is the link for the picture.
[link]http://lh5.ggpht.com/-qUW5JKaqMXY/TsidOhI-wlI/AAAAAAAAAWw/QClmQEl-yvQ/s1600-h/PAK-FAT-50_17-11-20114.jpg[/link]


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 17:07 
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vipulmb wrote:
PAK-FA in black color, digital art. :) I draw this using Paint.NET and TwistedBrush Pro Studio v17.00.

Image

Seems img bbcode not working. anyway below is the link for the picture.
[link]http://lh5.ggpht.com/-qUW5JKaqMXY/TsidOhI-wlI/AAAAAAAAAWw/QClmQEl-yvQ/s1600-h/PAK-FAT-50_17-11-20114.jpg[/link]

Can any mod plz correct the links above plz?


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 19:05 
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Only 4 a2a missiles internally does not sound right. It has two tandem bays. Should be able to pack in eight meaty aams.
That was the whole idea of having the engines wide apart rather than tightly pressed together f22 style.


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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2012 23:30 
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any more inputs as to max range of these 4 internal weapon bay can hold? [meaning types of missiles]


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 08:47 
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Thanks Hiten but credit should go to Sukhoi for getting us beautiful hi res.

Guys Stop worrying about the number of missiles PAK-FA can hold unless we hear it from Sukhoi , its merely a rumour started by some one on the numbers of missile internal bay can hold ....just wild speculation as good as any one can guess.

Meanwhile some nice high res

http://russianplanes.net/images/to94000/093683.jpg
http://russianplanes.net/images/to94000/093740.jpg


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 10:26 
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Austin wrote:

brilliant! it appears like a single engined monster!


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 11:50 
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Location: Desh ke baarei mei sochna shuru karo. Soch badlo, desh badlega!
What is that thing in the background in the second picture


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 12:02 
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^^^Seems to have AEROFLOT markings, but wingtips are equipped with jammers??


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 12:14 
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krishnan wrote:
What is that thing in the background in the second picture



looks like Beriev_A-50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50

Image


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 12:42 
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Location: Desh ke baarei mei sochna shuru karo. Soch badlo, desh badlega!
thing is its so unclear that i dont even known whether its the front or rear part :lol:


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 16:42 
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There is a wingtip pod like structure on that biggish plane in the background.


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 18:01 
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From Yefim gordon's book
Quote:
'Aircraft 976' is superficially similar to the A-50
AWACS, featuring an identical rotodome which,
incidentally, has earned it the nickname
Pogahnka (Toadstool) at L11. Like the A-50, it has
satellite communications and data link antennas
in a large dielectric fairing ahead of the wings


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 19:10 
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now that question makes me think about advanced photoshop gone messed up. good question


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 19:19 
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SaiK wrote:
now that question makes me think about advanced photoshop gone messed up. good question

:?: in which reference


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2012 22:29 
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Location: Desh ke baarei mei sochna shuru karo. Soch badlo, desh badlega!
that sure looks like some AWACS type, but front part doesnt make any sense, maybe some illusion


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2012 02:27 
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well.. it was fabulous photograph.. the heat wave smudged many things and at the same time the snow on top of the beriev appeared like a mess along with other smudge.

nice.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2012 08:06 
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it is really Aeroflot. will post full pics


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2012 08:37 
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Here is a IL-76 PP:

Image
Without the rotordome. IL-76 PP

Image
With Rotordome. This is a command and control aircraft, not just an AWACS. IL-76 SK


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2012 11:53 
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Image


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