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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 09:55 
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while this thread is china centric as i see in previous posts as a member & a fan of BR-forum for many years i ask the members to not underestimate the power & will of Indian armed forces.

1962 was a knife in the back when because of our "hindi chini bhai bhai" mentality lost us a war .But now the scenario have changed a lot our pak focused armed force are now thinking globally keeping tabs on all the neighbors.

The path of development is long & hard but every country & its armed forces have there own problem , while we have Pakistan & maybe china , china have India , Russia, Vietnam,Philippines, Taiwan,japan,south Korea & in few years 60% of US assets in the region with only ally as Pakistan whose only deterrence is nuclear weapons , not the f16 not jf17 just stockpile of nuclear weapons which have saved them till now.

so i again humbly request the brothers/sisters on BR-forum to please not represent Indian armed forces as less than any other armed forces of the world.

"overconfidence can kill but under-confidence can even let you to defeat before fighting the war."


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 20:06 
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shiv wrote:
RamaY wrote:

There is a third choice often pushed by this group of Indians - "Peace at any cost". This is the group that 'encourages' us to give more space to our opponents by demilitarizing, offering Indian political space and even conceding land.


In fact this thread could be used for a debate between all 3 groups. The peacemongers, the defeat seers and the hashish high jingos. The wrestling matches between these groups has been killing a lot of threads by going OT


I am peace mongeror onlee... I want peace at any cost. I am willing to take few nukes on Indian cities if that is what will get peace for India.

On the other hand, I want to know is which way I have to convert into. Han Communist, Arapic Islam or White Christianity. You see, if I join any one of these guys prematurely, others may get upset and disturb my peace.

Then, At least I dont have to debate the poisonous-casteism of Hindus, Brutal genocides of Brahmins, Hindu economic growth and so on...


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 20:54 
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Location: Chaprasi and Bawarchi third gilass, South East corner, aka Agneya
Some times flawed geniuses in their anxiety to assure
Confidence in capabilities undermine the very goal of theirs

This is one such thread

Lamenting ones capabilities and inadequacy is not equal to opponents praises
Or surrender

We need to be alert smart and not snooze
Learn from what we have done improve improvise
And finally invent
Others are doing it why not us?

What has been done can be learned
What has been learned can be taught
What has been taught can be used to further the learning and progress
I am done with this thread
Sigh of relief I hear
:)>


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 02:48 
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more than the chinese military harassment and indic embarrassment.. the fear for me is in the personal space, and nothing to do with mil occupation of India. The number of chinese products on my shelf has increased, and the quality of these products is alarmingly bad, and still we would soon be left with no more dhoties to shiver, except the made in china dhoties, that a tad bid smaller and thinner by microns mftrd with some hi-tech equipments. heck, even personal space toiletries has them so that they can cause fear right in the rear where it hurts us more.

how to overcome this fear?


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 05:05 
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Vote for the UPA again and ensure the victory of the dragon!


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 05:42 
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To avoid defeat from china we require only two things in enough numbers:

a S-400 type LRSAAM
b. Extremely large numbers of brahmos + Nirbhay.

Dragon will not dare take panga... else we are nanga (without even Made in china dhoti) As per my own chaiwala things are moving on b but not on a.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 08:37 
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Lifted from Wiki, this is what the PLAAF can throw at us
:oops: whoops the image needs editing. Wii re upload later.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 10:12 
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Whats this "defeat" and how is it defined?

Case 1: China publishes photo of J-whatever and I (not GOI or Indian Army) raise white flag. game over rename my pet cat Mao.
Case 2: China invades Tawang. Nehrus descendents declare no grass grows there. Tawang is now Chinese territory. I have my manufacturing job in India and I dont care.
Case 3: China invades whole India. So what? My ancestors lived under Mughals and then the British and now I live under Chinese like the tibetans do. Look ma its Gopal in the HSR to Bhopal.

What are the options here?

Another question is what do the Chinese want from Indian occupation? Indians are not wimps like tibetans. We wont drop arms and take lessons in socialism and go home.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 10:37 
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kulhari wrote:
To avoid defeat from china we require only two things in enough numbers:

a S-400 type LRSAAM
b. Extremely large numbers of brahmos + Nirbhay.

Dragon will not dare take panga... else we are nanga (without even Made in china dhoti) As per my own chaiwala things are moving on b but not on a.

Not just that...
Mountain divisions with airlift capability
Modern artillery and in HUGE numbers

China only plans a border skirmish and wants to take territory in Northern Arunachal Pradesh, and in Ladakh. It has teamed up with the Pakistanis for a possible two front war with Indian forces in J&K and another front in Sikkim and AP.
Although one can never be sure about these things, but border defence, protection of Indian territory has to be top priority. Along with fighting the war inside Tibet - We have debts to repay to the tibeteans.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 10:39 
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Err,
the most effective way to prepare for defeat by dlagon is to ispeek like cheena biladhels.
Lealn mandolin ell solly, lealn mandalain.

Plepale fol melgel with the cheena borg.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 12:58 
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We are obsessed with China onlee...China has blood feuds with Japan and Taiwan and has little or no interest in going to war wit India. India hardly matters in China's sphere of influence and in its calculations, China will provoke and humilaite India in short battles but will never escalate beyond that. Thats why we need to call their bluff sooner or later. One well publicized humiliation of China will silence the Chinese and the Indian Dhoti shiverers. Better, it could bring about a democratic revolution in China just like there was an internal rebellion leading to ouster of Krushchev. communists rate H&D more than anything.

India having started its reforms some 14 years after China is presently where China was 10 years ago. Now our being 1/3 rd of China is proof enough for some people of our supposed inferiority. Wait and watch, once the Soviets reached a good level of development and middle income status people started asking for more and eventually lead to the collapse of FSU. China is no different, once the growth levels start drying up internal rebellion is only but natural. No quick response team of the Chinese can quell them.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 16:48 
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With respect to the Chinese, we need to use the same techniques used by two other nations against their numerically superior enemies:

1) ISRAEL - One:one qualitative superiority vis-a-vis the enemy: we are already doing this though in a piecemeal basis - large purchases of superior (THE BEST - period) weapon systems from western nations need to be fast tracked. Basically the aim here is to field the very best item vis-a-vis the enemy right down to the individual level. So it means that when the forces come head to head, our forces fight with THE BEST equipment! Below is an example of the 'piece-by-piece qualitative superiority' we should be aiming at:

    INDIA

    Pistols
    FN Five-seven

    Submachine Guns
    Heckler & Koch MP5


    Rifles
    IMI Tavor TAR-21


    CHINA

    Pistols
    QSZ-92


    Submachine Guns
    QCW-05



    Rifles
    QBZ-95



You get the drift... for the rest use your imagination

2) PAKISTAN - Proxy warfare/use of irregular forces:
[a] Pakistan's proxy war in Punjab and Kashmir is well known. We can do the same vis-a-vis China.

[b] Post 26/11, when there were the usual rumours of Indian punitive strikes on Pakistan, the Pakistani Taliban had announced that in such an event they would send hundreds of suicide bombers to confront the attacking Indian forces. I think we have similar group of people at our disposal to confront the chinese hordes and we should make sure that their sacrifices are channeled towards the right objective instead of being wasted as is the case now...

Image


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 16:55 
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Learn to speak and write mandarin and teach your children the phrase "Long Live Mao!"

Done.

Anything else? :-?


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 17:58 
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Superior weapons alone are not going to win wars for us, Israelis won war after war because the soldier identified with the cause of the nation and the govt always backed them up, it was like a family fight for the soldier. Look at US in Vietnam and what happened to them in spite of superior weapons. With the pathetic treatment of armed forces by the govt and the overall negativity pervalent in the nation due to the gross corruption at the centre the armed forces have to work extra hard to keep up the motivation levels. The Chinese soldier without a red cause to fight for, and which surprisingly was abandoned by their own CCP has just survival to fight for.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 18:02 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
Anything else? :-?


Yes, please complete your story, we are waiting. Desperately.

Please.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 19:23 
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"Defeat by the Dragon" can mean 2 things practically speaking:
1) occupation of J&K incl POK/NA and of Arunachal by Chinese.
2) thrashing and degradation of Indian armed forces in a limited war a la '62.

Both would be relatively good things because I can't imagine things getting any worse than they already are for the mango person. The congress and the existing babu clique would most likely be kicked out, at least for 5 years, giving a "nationalist" party if such exists a chance to do some permanent reconstruction. The Left Front would be dealt a final death blow because they would have again overtly taken the Dragon's side during the conflict like they did in '62. The Green 5th column would have exposed itself indecently in public, this time disgusting even the most rabid wkk, and be taken care of permanently by said "nationalist" party. After recovering, the Indian economy would grow faster than before shed of the heaviest baggage of conflict and corruption while the Dragon enters its inevitable decline and breakup.

The true Indian can prepare for this eventuality by taking a bath, wearing a dhoti and doing puja earnestly so that all the good things mentioned above happen but miraculously without 1) or 2).


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 02:20 
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Sanku wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:
Anything else? :-?


Yes, please complete your story, we are waiting.


Moving towards it. Pliss to check scenarios dhaga. :)


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 03:59 
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Well, if you know what your opponent wants, and it sounds like you guys have a good idea, then it is helpful to prepare for defeat by having "before-conflict" briefings with your opponent in order to sort out the surrender issues such as: where to meet, at what level of hierachy that needs to attend the surrender event, seating arrangements, presentation of sidearms to be surrendered, etc. Photographer photo op sessions should also be prepared. Vehicle needs must also be decided. You can't have one side show up in helicopters and the other in measly command cars although it would behoove you not to be overly ostentatious in you commander vehicle of choice since you are surrendering. Meek and mild I always say. Or... you could just say ****** the whole process and start planning on setting up afield office in Lhasa for administering your new territory. Call it the Pak-Tibet Co-Prosperity Sphere.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 05:08 
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TSJones wrote:
You know suffering defeat can be an exciting prospect. Fighting fierce rear guard actions and all of that. Anybody ever see the movie Red Dawn? Wolverines!

Are you going to watch the remake? Comes out next week.....
They should have stuck with the original idea and kept the chinese as the enemy


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 07:37 
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Here is what the PLAAF can throw at us (courtesy Wiki)
Image


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 07:47 
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Shiv,

A lot of these aircraft are simply not usable against India given their quality of flight performance as well as fighting capabilities. Once you account for the fact that only a handful of airbases in the TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) can support fighter operations close to the front, it becomes easier to filter out the aerial threats.

For example, the J-10s and J-11s are usable. They have both the range and the capability to operate relatively effectively from Tibetan airbases or fly in from airbases further to the north beyond the Tibetan plateau. The J-8s are usable from northern airfields but are not effective in combat except when thrown in large numbers (which may be possible a couple of times but is not effective as a campaign strategy). The J-7s are effective in combat only at short ranges and can only fly over Myanmar to be truly effective. Besides, ALL of these cannot possibly be based within short striking ranges at any one time (there are only so many airbases available,and many of those cannot support second line aircraft). Which means that units must be brought in to face the IAF and replaced with other units when they become depleted or are decimated in combat.

And I realize that the PLAAF has been busy building some super-long runways at their TAR airbases (Shigatse, Golmud etc) but there is a big difference between technical capability to operate and a realistic, usable ability to do so during combat operations. Those airbases right now are more to show the technical feasibility of operating fighters from TAR bases, not a realistic threat.

So the real numbers add up as follows (and I am merely using the numbers from wiki pic you posted, which may be under- or over-predicting the actual strengths on some of these):

First Line aircraft:
J-10s: 200
J-11s: 140
Su-27/30MKKs: 76 + 76 = 152
Total: 492 (Actual Threat)

Second Line aircraft:
J-8s: 360
J-7s: 350
Total: 700 (Combat Ineffective)

Anyway, just some thoughts.

-Vivek


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 07:52 
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Do you think that number of transports is accurate? Seems rather small for a China that has huge numbers of fighters


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 08:31 
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Kukreja wrote:
TSJones wrote:
You know suffering defeat can be an exciting prospect. Fighting fierce rear guard actions and all of that. Anybody ever see the movie Red Dawn? Wolverines!

Are you going to watch the remake? Comes out next week.....
They should have stuck with the original idea and kept the chinese as the enemy


I didn't know they were remaking the movie but yes I will probably watch it when it arrives on AT&T Uverse movie list. I hope they don't make it ideologically correct and remove the Sov Red Menace and their Cuban lackeys aspect of the movie. That would suck greatly.

But really, I truely think the Chinese are more concerned with their East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere than their troubles with India. After all there are oil discoveries at stake in the South China Sea. Now THAT I expect they will fight over. They think they will kick some Fillipino and Vietnamese butt. Easy money and good for chump change as it were.

Are you guys going to watch the Land of Pi ? Looks like an awesome movie.


Last edited by TSJones on 16 Nov 2012 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 08:33 
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shiv wrote:
Do you think that number of transports is accurate? Seems rather small for a China that has huge numbers of fighters


They certainly are in the right ball park range. This has more to do with China never being a truly dependent on aerial logistics to move men and material until recently. Their entire transport force is designed around moving light airborne units of the PLA rather than their regular forces. Hence the much smaller requirement for transports. This is now changing, of course. The Chinese are increasing adopting (at least the idea is being adopted) of large air-mobile forces. As a result we will see them going for more aircraft in the IL-76 capability range in the near future. But even then, the ratio of (transport-capacity)/Landmass will still not be anywhere close to India.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 09:24 
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Hi Vivek

what are you doing here ... we need you somewhere else my friend :wink:
:D :D :D


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 09:29 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
Shiv,

A lot of these aircraft are simply not usable against India given their quality of flight performance as well as fighting capabilities. Once you account for the fact that only a handful of airbases in the TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) can support fighter operations close to the front, it becomes easier to filter out the aerial threats.

For example, the J-10s and J-11s are usable. They have both the range and the capability to operate relatively effectively from Tibetan airbases or fly in from airbases further to the north beyond the Tibetan plateau. The J-8s are usable from northern airfields but are not effective in combat except when thrown in large numbers (which may be possible a couple of times but is not effective as a campaign strategy). The J-7s are effective in combat only at short ranges and can only fly over Myanmar to be truly effective. Besides, ALL of these cannot possibly be based within short striking ranges at any one time (there are only so many airbases available,and many of those cannot support second line aircraft). Which means that units must be brought in to face the IAF and replaced with other units when they become depleted or are decimated in combat.


How realistic is the threat of intrusion over Myanmar airspace ? It seems to be around 250 miles one-way and ridges are around 9000 ft in altitude - so it is technically possible for both sides to launch standoff attacks over the Myanmar airspace.

Is it diplomatically possible ? In a war between giants, the best that smaller countries can do restrict themselves to diplomatic protests over airspace violations. They can't be seen as actively supporting either one. And they don't have the firepower to enforce the neutrality.

Quote:
And I realize that the PLAAF has been busy building some super-long runways at their TAR airbases (Shigatse, Golmud etc) but there is a big difference between technical capability to operate and a realistic, usable ability to do so during combat operations. Those airbases right now are more to show the technical feasibility of operating fighters from TAR bases, not a realistic threat.

So the real numbers add up as follows (and I am merely using the numbers from wiki pic you posted, which may be under- or over-predicting the actual strengths on some of these):

First Line aircraft:
J-10s: 200
J-11s: 140
Su-27/30MKKs: 76 + 76 = 152
Total: 492 (Actual Threat)

Second Line aircraft:
J-8s: 360
J-7s: 350
Total: 700 (Combat Ineffective)

Anyway, just some thoughts.

-Vivek


In a pinch, they would be stationed as either point defence interceptors in forward bases and free up the more capable platforms for strikes or they would station them threatening a major Indian city to tie up our defensive platforms.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 10:19 
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Why is the discussion only focussed on conventional weapons?

Who has more atomic bombs? Who has the ability to deliever these bombs accurately?

If you don't want to have a protracted war you did what US did to Japan.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 12:10 
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Location: Fortune Favors The Brave
开始学习中国


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 14:43 
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^^ 肯定


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 14:51 
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kulhari wrote:
To avoid defeat from china we require only two things in enough numbers:

a S-400 type LRSAAM
b. Extremely large numbers of brahmos + Nirbhay.

Dragon will not dare take panga... else we are nanga (without even Made in china dhoti) As per my own chaiwala things are moving on b but not on a.



Last I heard there is delay in delivery of INS Vikramaditya since Chinese failed to supply critical components that russians ordered . Last heard AKA was looking into the matter and requesting Hu to expedite deliveries so that he can kick his a$$. China dhoti will come later.


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 15:19 
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chaanakya wrote:
^^ 肯定


这是一个正确的精神。他妈的中国


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 22:22 
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在我的裤子发抖


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 23:55 
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沒有這麼快!

Excellent article by Air Commodore Ramesh Phadke - posted here elsewhere. I am quoting relevant points as emphasized by Vivek here:

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... r-force/1/

Quote:
...the PLAAF has some 1,687 combat capable aircraft up from 1,653 the previous year. The Chinese aviation industry now has the capacity to manufacture 40-50 modern fighters every year.

... The PLAAF, however, has almost no combat experience nor has it participated in exercises with air forces other than the one with a few aircraft in Turkey last year. Yet if the type and variety of weapons, especially cruise missiles, UAV and UCAV and the focus on space-based systems such as the GPS/GLONASS, reconnaissance satellites are any indication, the PLAAF is by no means lagging behind other air forces in grasping the essentials of modern air power employment. A majority of the 1,687 combat aircraft, however, are of II/III generation. Barring some 144 J-10, a few Super-10, 243 Su-27/30 and 72 JH-7A, the rest comprise J-7 and J-8 of the older generation.

...Chinese leadership might place a higher-than-normal reliance on the country’s missile force especially on the conventional short range ballistic missiles of the M-9 and M-11 variety. These weapons, available in large numbers, could well be used in the opening phases of a border conflict to convey Chinese political resolve and to keep attrition low. The terrain, large distances to airfields in Sichuan and Yunnan provinces (1,600km – 1,800km from Arunachal Pradesh to Chengdu and Kunming) and the limitations imposed by high altitude on fighter operations from Tibetan airfields could also force the Chinese to bank on conventional missiles. It is also debatable if on their way to targets in India, the Chinese aircraft would be allowed to fly over Myanmar and Bangladesh.

....The PLAAF has a few Il-78 and ten H-6 converted into Tu-160 Flight Refuelling Aircraft (FRA). Their efficiency, state of training and employability however, remain somewhat uncertain. In the event of a face-off between the Chinese and Indian navies, the IAF may be called into action. Given the range, the IAF would have to undertake combat operations with the Su-30 fleet duly supported by FRAs.

The fleet of FRA with the PLAAF is neither large enough nor sufficiently trained to compensate for these limitations of operating from airfields at high altitude. Besides, the airfields in Tibet can be easily targeted by the IAF and hence would remain vulnerable. The IAF today has a fairly large number of combat aircraft and a small number of conventional missiles of the Prithvi class. The Su-30 MKI fleet in the East is being progressively enhanced and together with Mirage-2000 and MiG-29, would be able to counter any offensive by the elements of the PLAAF in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. The situation would definitely improve once the Su-30 MKI fleet is built up to full strength and the 126 MMRCA and 40 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft are inducted into the IAF in the next decade. By 2020, hopefully the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft would also be available to the IAF.

....IAF resources would undoubtedly be stretched in the event of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) also mounting an offensive in collusion with the PLAAF. But even in such a situation it would not be easy for them to prevail. Simultaneous and well-coordinated offensive operations by China and Pakistan are a remote possibility but one for which the country must be ever prepared. For a variety of reasons, at this point in time, neither China nor India is likely to seek to engage in an all-out, copy-book and set-piece conventional war.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 00:57 
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Indian Defence ministry needs to prepare adequately against any misadventure by PLA/ PLAAF / PLAN. It seems to me the India is ill-prepared to face them off.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 06:24 
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yantra wrote:
沒有這麼快!

Excellent article by Air Commodore Ramesh Phadke - posted here elsewhere. I am quoting relevant points as emphasized by Vivek here:

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... r-force/1/

Quote:
...The PLAAF, however, has almost no combat experience nor has it participated in exercises with air forces other than the one with a few aircraft in Turkey last year. Yet if the type and variety of weapons, especially cruise missiles, UAV and UCAV and the focus on space-based systems such as the GPS/GLONASS, reconnaissance satellites are any indication, the PLAAF is by no means lagging behind other air forces in grasping the essentials of modern air power employment. A majority of the 1,687 combat aircraft, however, are of II/III generation. Barring some 144 J-10, a few Super-10, 243 Su-27/30 and 72 JH-7A, the rest comprise J-7 and J-8 of the older generation.


Those underlined numbers is what I was talking about earlier. Nice to be validated a bit on that.

Quote:
In a pinch, they would be stationed as either point defence interceptors in forward bases and free up the more capable platforms for strikes or they would station them threatening a major Indian city to tie up our defensive platforms.


Also the real danger is if the PLAAF attempts to mix them hi-lo with the Su-27/30s in order to get them close enough to cause damage. Of course, only the J-8IIs have the range to do this, and even then the lack of tankers to fuel a large aerial armada means that the J-8IIs will be on a one way trip only.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 09:06 
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darshhan wrote:
开始学习中国

This is seasonal. 20+ years back everyone and their grandma was saying learn Japanese. And look what happened. China is going to hit the wall sooner then later.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 20:49 
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Brando wrote:
shiv wrote:
Hmm yes. Like Romania and Yugoslavia in the 60s. Indigenous jet fighters used for aerobatics.


Yes, just like the Surya Kiran's with the HJT-16...........


http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k56 ... hf24x3.jpg
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3JNY4 ... 1dRV0FnUDA


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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 00:21 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31
Posts: 3154
Isnt it interesting that when the Chinese show a J-XX flying, a lot of the Indians are ever ready to believe that the Chinese have a deployed and operable fifth generation fighter and scream India is doomed and it must buy the F-35 or something similar? The same people, however, claim India has a limited nuclear deterrent since they have not witnessed a full up nuclear test. Never mind they havent seen a J-XX in combat either... the same logic doesnt apply for some reason.


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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 01:22 
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BRFite

Joined: 03 May 2012 22:34
Posts: 436
The J-10 lost the race to Mig-29M's in Myammar and the J-XX will never operate in any half decent air force. The Rafale seems to have scared the chinese shitless.


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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 12:38 
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BRFite

Joined: 12 Nov 2010 23:49
Posts: 563
Location: Some place in the sphere
Bheeshma wrote:
The Rafale seems to have scared the chinese shitless.



Can u validate this statement???


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