Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[Arjun]

A recent discovery of a palm leaf manuscript in Afghanistan holds significant promise: Harappan people used an older form of Brahmi script: Expert

VARANASI: Is Brahmi the oldest script of India. The mysterious script of Indus Valley civilization, which is not deciphered yet may have some ancestral connection with Brahmi script can be deciphered in coming years.

A palm leaf manuscript discovered from Harappan site in Afghanistan has strengthened the belief of existence of a proto Brahmi script, which was used by Indus Valley people. This discussion was raised by Dr DP Sharma, Harappan archaeologist and director, Bharat Kala Bhawan, Banaras Hindu University (BHU) in the International Conference on Harappan Archaeology held recently in Chandigarh.

According to Sharma, who has carried out research works on the palm leaf manuscript with Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) for last five years, the palm leaf has Harappan as well as Kohi script engraved. "Kohi symbols and letters have an affinity with the Harappan script and hence can be very significant in the decipherment of Harappan scripts. At the same time the palm leave manuscript has seven lines, which is the longest script recovered from any Harappan site. So far the scripts or the signs of Indus Valley script engraved on tablets, seals, potteries and other objects had not more than 18 letters or pictures," informed Sharma.

Sharma also said, "The script on the palm leaf runs from right to left while Brahmi script runs from right to left. The objects discovered from excavation sites indicate that they were using two scripts as few objects have right to left run of the script while some objects have left to right written scripts. However, no traces of objects with bilingual scripts has been found so far of Harappan period, which suggests that there was only one script called Brahmi and the script that Harappan people used was an older form of Brahmi called 'proto Brahmi'. During the mature Harappan period (2700 BC to 2000 BC) the direction of Harappan writing system was right to left and later on around 2000 to 1500 BC they started their writing system from left to right. The existence of no long manuscript had posed the difficulty in deciphering the Harappan script, however, the manuscript on palm leaves may solve this problem".

Sharma further strengthens his argument by quoting the DNA analysis carried out by Dr Lalji Singh, vice-chancellor, BHU. According to Sharma, the analysis by Singh suggests that the two ancient races Aryan and Dravidians were native of India and none of them came outside of our country. The Aryan and Dravidian races in India have the same genetic basis. This suggests that proto Dravidian and proto Aryan races were present in Harappan population and Harappan were using proto Dravidian and Sanskrit as their language and their script was proto Brahmi only.

According to Sharma, during the conference, his research works in deciphering the Harappan scripts were also consolidated by BR Mani additional director general, ASI. "These new researches can help a great deal in deciphering the Harappan script and once the script is deciphered a number of mysterious seals, square pieces, pottery, coins and other objects can be read and hence we can know about their trade, literature, art and other aspects of civilization," informed Sharma.

[Agnimitra]

Folks,

A friend brought up the "Aryan migration" in conversation recently. I shared a few things I learned from the discussions here, and they found it quite reasonable and were very curious to learn more. they asked for books / blogs / articles that they could read up on. If it hasn't already been done, could someone here please compile a list of good existing blogs or articles that exposes the AIT/AMT?

What I was interested in talking about was not that the reverse OIT is true, but rather that Vedic civilization was not ethnocentric to one race, and that there was substantial inflow and outflow from India towards all directions - north-west, north-east, south-east, south-west.

Perhaps such a list can be appended to the first post on this thread.

TIA.

[shiv]

Folks,

A friend brought up the "Aryan migration" in conversation recently. I shared a few things I learned from the discussions here, and they found it quite reasonable and were very curious to learn more. they asked for books / blogs / articles that they could read up on. If it hasn't already been done, could someone here please compile a list of good existing blogs or articles that exposes the AIT/AMT?

What I was interested in talking about was not that the reverse OIT is true, but rather that Vedic civilization was not ethnocentric to one race, and that there was substantial inflow and outflow from India towards all directions - north-west, north-east, south-east, south-west.

Perhaps such a list can be appended to the first post on this thread.

TIA.

Carl the only definitive proof is genetics. There have been several genetics papers discussed here including names like Kivisilid, Metspalu, Thangaraj, Reich and other who have shown that
1. Genes of Indians are all thoroughly mixed up making the premise that Aryans came and pushed Dravidians away a lie
2. "Mixing" of genes in India has occurred from two different populations but that has occurred more than 7 to 8000 years ago (6000 BC) - maybe more than 12000 years ago - nowhere near the 1500 BC dates of the Aryan invasion.
3. Arya is a name for Vedic people . One group of Vedic people (as per their own literature) broke away from India and migrated to Iran/Afghanistan and called themselves Aryans. There were the Zoroastrians.
4. There is evidence of certain genes that originated in India and are now found in eastern Europe in areas where the language is very similar to Sanskrit. Those same genes (R1A1a1 M17) have also been found in 4000 year old mummies in the Baltic region
5. India never froze up in the ice age and had warm weather and two crops a year. India probably served as a refuge for populations that fled from Europe as the last ice age increased in intensity and depopulated Europe. Many parts of the northen world were likely repopulated from India as the ice started melting 12000 years ago. This fits in with the genetic picture

As regards a single source for all this - there is none other than this thread.

I am thinking of collecting all the data I have picked up in this thread to make a book

[Agnimitra]

Thanks Shiv ji.
A book is a good idea, but a blog also would be helpful. Perhaps leaders of the discussion here could start collecting links systematically arranged under several topics in the MIE thread that was created in GDF.

[shiv]

Thanks Shiv ji.
A book is a good idea, but a blog also would be helpful. Perhaps leaders of the discussion here could start collecting links systematically arranged under several topics in the MIE thread that was created in GDF.

Will certainly add to that thread.

[Pranav]

One group of Vedic people (as per their own literature) broke away from India and migrated to Iran/Afghanistan and called themselves Aryans. There were the Zoroastrians.

Where exactly is that claim made in the Avestan literature? I know the Avesta mentions the Hapta-Hindu but did they regard themselves as break-aways from that area?

[Agnimitra]

Where exactly is that claim made in the Avestan literature? I know the Avesta mentions the Hapta-Hindu but did they regard themselves as break-aways from that area?

Just one instance of such indicators (source):

“In the Rg-Veda, the terms ‘Dasa’ and ‘Dasyu’, which are also known in ethnic meanings in Iranian languages, refer without any doubt to Iranians, i.e. fellow Indo-Europeans, whiter than or at least as white as the Vedic people. Not to Mundas or Dravidians. The Rg-Vedic Battle of the Ten Kings and Varshagira Battle (the first on the Ravi banks in West Panjab, the second beyond the Bolan Pass in southern Afghanistan, after the westward expansion rendered possible by Vedic kind Sudas's victory in the first battle), were very definitely between Iranians and Vedic Indo-Aryans. The second of these battles is also alluded to in the younger Avesta, where the same battle leaders are mentioned: Rjashva/Arjasp and Somaka/Humayaka on the Indian side, Vishtaspa/Ishtashva on the Iranian side. RV 1:122:13 mentions Ishtâshva, the Sanskrit form of Iranian "Vishtâspa", well-known as Zarathustra's royal patron: "What can Ishtâshva, Ishtarashmi or any other princes do against those who enjoy the protection (of Mitra and Varuna)?" Thus the interpretation of Sayana and SK Hodiwala, as reported by Shrikant Talageri, The Rigveda, a Historical Analysis, p.215-221, and also followed, at least in the names given, by HH Wilson and KF Geldner in their RV translations. It is a rare treat in studies of ancient literature when a single event is reported in two independent sources, which moreover represent the two opposing parties in the event.

Further, several other Zoroastrian memes point to a deliberate schismatic inversion of Vedic memes, done almost in spite and bitterness.

[shiv]

One group of Vedic people (as per their own literature) broke away from India and migrated to Iran/Afghanistan and called themselves Aryans. There were the Zoroastrians.

Where exactly is that claim made in the Avestan literature? I know the Avesta mentions the Hapta-Hindu but did they regard themselves as break-aways from that area?

The history of Zoroastrianism has been written by the west so the Aryan invasion theory dominates in most accounts, but still many informed Zoroastrian sources who are aware of the Vedas can see the links as clearly as an Indan with some Vedic awareness can see the link.
http://www.farvardyn.com/zoroaster.php

We have to piece carefully together the legends and the myths of the Avesta and the Veda to get some idea of this Ancient Faith. Many names are common between the two Scriptures and what is really remarkable, several of these names are used in diametrically opposite sense. This latter fact many point to religious troubles between the two sections of the Aryan race; though as to whether these arose directly out of the advent of Zoroaster, and whether these differences were the reasons for the final splitting up of the Aryans into the two branches, it would be out of place to discuss here.

The very first name that occurs to the student in this connection is that of the Supreme Lord Himself-Ahura-which in the Sanskrit from Asura signifies 'a demon'. The name originally signifies 'the Lord of Life' (from Av. ahu, Skt. asu, life), or the One Life from Whom all proceed. The Sanskrit Asura also signified originally the One Eternal Life, and in the Rig-Veda (in its oldest portions) it is not used in its later degraded signification.

Avesta.org has a direct link to the translation of Zoroaster's hymns by Jatindranath Chaterji. Read the introduction only
http://www.avesta.org/chatterj_opf_files/slideshow.htm

[RajeshA]

Published on October 28, 2012
By T.S. Subramanian
Potsherd with Tamil-Brahmi script found in Oman: The Hindu



Discovery has opened new chapter in understanding maritime trade of Indian Ocean countries, say historians

A Tamil-Brahmi script inscribed on a potsherd, which was found at the Khor Rori area in Oman, has come to light now. The script reads “nantai kiran” and it can be dated to first century CE, that is, 1900 years before the present. The discovery in the ancient city of Sumhuram has opened a new chapter in understanding the maritime trade of the Indian Ocean countries, according to specialists in history.

It was by chance that the potsherd was sighted. Alexia Pavan, an Italian archaeologist, had displayed the potsherd during an international ceramic workshop on “The Indian Ocean Trade and the Archaeology of Technology at Pattanam in Kerala” held in September in Kochi. P.J. Cherian, Director, Kerala Council of Historical Research (KCHR), and Roberta Tomber of the British Museum, London, had jointly organised the workshop. Pottery from several Indian Ocean countries was on display during the workshop. K. Rajan, Professor, Department of History, Pondicherry University, D. Dayalan, Regional Director, Archaeological Survey of India, and V. Selvakumar, Head of the Department of Epigraphy and Archaeology, Tamil University, Thanjavur, spotted the potsherd displayed by Dr. Pavan.

The Italian Mission to Oman (IMTO) had found this potsherd during its second archaeological excavation in 2006 in the Khor Rori area. The Director of the excavation was Alessandra Avanzini and Dr. Pavan was part of the team. Since 1997, the Mission of University of Pisa, forming part of the IMTO, has been working in Oman in two sites: Sumhuram in Khor Rori and Salut in Nizwa.

Personal name

The potsherd was found in a residential area of Sumhuram city. Dr. Pavan said it was part of a lid made by reusing the shoulder of an amphora. Soot traces visible along the external ridge suggest the use of the lid for a cooking pot. The sherd was discovered in a layer mixed with a few pottery pieces and animal bones, “which [layer] corresponds to one of the most important constructional phase of the city, to be dated to the first century CE,” she said. So the sherd could be dated to first century CE or a little earlier. There was so much of Indian material, including beads, coins and pottery, discovered during the excavation that it was important to show the relationship between India and the southern coast of Oman, she added.

The script “nantai kiran,” signifying a personal name, has two components, Dr. Rajan said. The first part “[n] antai” is an honorific suffix to the name of an elderly person. For instance, “kulantai-campan,” “antai asutan,” “korrantai” and so on found in Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions could be cited. The second component “Kiran” also stands for a personal name. More than 20 poets of the Tamil Sangam age [circa third century BCE to third century CE] have “kiran” as part of their personal names. “Thus, the broken piece of the pot carries the personal name of an important trader who commanded a high regard in the trading community,” Dr. Rajan argued.

It was generally believed that India’s contact with the Mediterranean world began with the Roman trade and much of the studies were concentrated on the Red Sea ports such as Quseir al-Qadim and Berenike, both in Egypt. While the excavation at Quseir al-Qadim yielded potsherds with the Tamil-Brahmi texts reading “kanan,” “catan” and “panai ori,” the one found at Berenike was engraved with the Tamil-Brahmi script “korrapuman.” The latest discovery in Oman was significant as it opened a new avenue in understanding the impact of the Indian Ocean trade, particularly on the west coast of the peninsular India, Dr. Rajan said. The region was known for frankincense and there was a possibility that trade in horses could also have taken place in these ports. (Frankincense is an aromatic gum resin used for burning as incense).

“Excavations by the University of Pisa have confirmed Sumhuram’s link with the ancient frankincense route and its cultural links with the frankincense-based kingdoms in southern Arabia,” Dr. Rajan said.

In the context of the advanced scholarship available on Tamil-Brahmi, estimated Dr. Cherian, this epigraphic evidence from Khor Rori had a great significance. “To the best of my knowledge, Khor Rori is the first South Arabian site to yield epigraphic evidence of the early historic phase [that is, when written records began].” Earlier, in the Mediterranean maritime trade network, only Myos Hormos and Berenike (on the Red Sea coast of Egypt) and a few sites in Sri Lanka had produced Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions outside India.

The importance of Khor Rori rested on the fact that it was an important pre-Islamic port-city in the ancient Indian Ocean exchanges between the Mediterranean region and India, Dr. Cherian said. The port of Sumhuram could be dated to circa third century BCE to fourth century ACE. This site could be crucial in tracing the maritime history of the Red Sea, the South Arabian and the Mesopotamian coasts and their hinterlands which could have played a pivotal role in the long-distance maritime trade between Tamilakam and the Mediterranean between the first century BCE and the fourth century CE, he added.

“It is unfortunate that the geographical and the cultural significance of the South Arabian region and its links with ancient south India has not been properly studied for various reasons,” said Dr. Cherian, who recently did field studies in Oman including at Sumhuram (Khor Rori) and the nearby Al Baleed sites. The Euro-centric perspectives that became dominant after the Roman Empire seem to have erased more history than they probably produced anew. In the absence of textual evidence for the early historic period, he said, archaeological evidence and to some extent, anthropological sources such as myths were the available means to retrieve such lost histories.

Dr. Cherian added: “This artefact with a post-firing Tamil-Brahmi script is, therefore, a find with a dual significance both as material and textual evidence. The challenge now is to seek associated archaeological finds from elsewhere, especially peninsular India.”

Brisk trade activity

The substantial quantity — the largest-ever assemblage from any Indian site — of 3,384 torpedo jar fragments and 1,720 turquoise glazed pottery from Pattanam suggested the brisk trade activity between Tamilakam and the South Arabian regions. (The KCHR, in association with other agencies has been excavating the Pattanam site, near Ernakulam, from 2007. Archaeologists feel that Pattanam could be Muziris/Muciri, which was a flourishing port on the west coast during the Tamil Sangam age, which coincided with the classical period in the West). “The presence of frankincense crumbs in almost all trenches at Pattanam is yet another indication of the site’s connection with South Arabia, including Khor Rori and the Al Baleed region, famed as the ‘land of incense’,” Dr. Cherian said.

[johneeG]

Photographic Evidence of the Vedic Influence in Art in Other Parts of the World

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Painting of Arab woman with forehead mark

An Arab woman wearing the Hindu vermilion mark on her forehead in ancient times when the world practiced Hinduism. (Published in the Bible Dictionary (appended to the Holy Bible edited by the American Review Committee) and also in "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar. [ Long missing links, or, The Marvellous Discoveries about the Aryans, Jesus Christ and Allah" by Vaduvur K Duraiswami Ayyangar, Publisher: Oriental Home University, 1931])
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Egyptian monarch with tilok on forehead, etc.

Hindu administrations, the Sanskrit language, Hindu culture and the Hindu medical system--Ayurved, held sway throughout the ancient world. Monarchs then used to attend court bare-bodied with sacred ash and colour marks on their bodies. This is an Hindu Egyptian monarch of those times. [The 'V' mark is called tilok, and is shown being worn by this Egyptian in the same style that it is still worn by Vaishnavas today in India, on the forehead, arms, neck, chest and belly, representing that one is a worshiper of Lord Krishna or Vishnu.] (Published on page 38 of the Bible Dictionary {appended to the Holy Bible edited by the American Review Committee} and on page 185 of "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar.)
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Builder of pyramids with Vedic tilok

The Hindu architect of the pyramids looking at an unfolded architectural scroll. He is wearing Hindu marks on his body. This should underline the need to reconstruct the worldwide sway of Hinduism in ancient times currently wiped out of all history. (Published in Egyptian Myth and Legends page 368 and also in "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar.)
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The Egyptian worship of bulls

Bulls were worshipped in ancient Hindu Egypt as they are still worshipped in Hindu India. The earliest explorers of Europe and Africa were Hindus. The river 'Nile' bears the Sanskrit name indicating her blue waters. (Published in "Egyptian Myth and Legend" page 70 and "Long Missing Links" page 233.)
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Greek painting of Krishna with flute & cows

This mosaic captioned "A Pastoral Scene" is of the 2nd century A.D. and is on display at the museum in Corinth, 60 Km. from Athens (Greece). Obviously this is Lord Krishna the Hindu incarnation in his boyhood. The bare body, the horizontal flute, the cross-legged stance, standing under a tree with a few cows grazing around is exactly how Krishna is depicted in Hindu pictures. This is proof that in ancient Hindu Europe, Krishna and Rama as much as the Shiva Linga were worshipped as they are still worshipped by the Hindus in Hindusthan.
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Roman consul wearing Vedic forehead tilok

Roman consul wearing the Hindu forehead mark indicating that in ancient times Romans were Hindus. Roman emperors also sported the title 'Dev' as the termination of their names in the Hindu royal style. [The 'V' mark is called tilok, and is worn on the forehead to represent that one is a Vaishnava, a worshiper of Lord Krishna or Vishnu.] (Published in "History of Rome" page 237 by Smith and in "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar.)
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Roman superior wearing tilok & dhoti

A Roman superior wearing the Hindu dhoti, chappals (sandals) and Hindu marks on his neck and forehead--reminding one of the times when Europe practiced Hinduism. (Published in "History of Rome" page 300 by Smith and "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar.)
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http://www.stephen-knapp.com/photograph ... luence.htm

[johneeG]

Photographic Evidence of the Vedic Influence in Art in Other Parts of the World

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Old painting of Rama & Sita in Italian homes

Rama-Seeta-Lakshmana walking through the forest in the order described in the Ramayana, a scene delineated in ancient Italian homes. Italian archaeologists express bewilderment at these paintings because they are unaware that ancient Europe including Italy practiced Hinduism.

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Sketch from Ramayana on Italian vase

Vali and Sugreeva--two monkey chiefs disputing over a woman Tara whom both claim as wife. Being monkeys they are undressed. This is one of the many Ramayanic scenes found sketched in ancient Italian homes (this one is sketched on a vase discovered in archaeological excavations in Italy).

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Another Ramayana scene found in ancient Italy

[There was no caption in the album for this photo of this drawing. However, from other sources it is said to have been found in Italy. It is an illustration from the Ramayana of Vibhishan, Ravana's brother, ready to leave Lanka in battle-dress to join Lord Rama. He is shown making one last appeal to Ravana to release Sita, Lord Rama's wife, shown sitting in the bottom corner.]

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Three Vedic deities & Ramayana scene

[Top photo] Three Hindu gods. The one at the left known as Ayu Devata (God of life) is still invoked in Siberia if some near and dear one falls seriously ill. The other two are just samples of the many gods and goddesses sold in the bazar of Ulan Bator, the capital of Mongolia. These indicate how Hinduism prevailed in the ancient world. Even the Slav people in Europe worshipped Hindu deities.

[Bottom photo] A Ramayanic scene found painted in ancient Italian houses discovered in archaeological excavations. Kausalya, Kaikeyi and Sumitra, wives of the aged king Dasharath sharing the divine fertility potion to beget illustrious sons. The Dasharath legend is also part of ancient Egyptian lore. All this shows that countries of Europe and Africa were Hindu in ancient times.

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Ramayana scene found in Italian homes

A Ramayanic episode found painted in ancient Italian homes; Lav and Kusha driving away a captured royal sacrificial horse belonging to their father Rama. The founding of Rome is ascribed to brothers Remus and Ramulus--which are latter-day variations of the Hindu name Rama.
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http://www.stephen-knapp.com/photograph ... luence.htm

[johneeG]

Photographic Evidence of the Vedic Influence in Art in Other Parts of the World

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Shiva linga at Etruscan Museum at Vatican

This is the Hindu deity Shiva. This piece is at present on view in the Etruscan Museum at the Vatican in Rome. Encyclopedia Britannica mentions under the headings "Etruria" and "Etruscan" that between the 2nd and 7th centuries BC, northern Italy was known as Etruria. During excavations many such "meteoric stones mounted on carved pedestals" are discovered in Italy. Obviously, therefore, this one was dug up from the Vatican itself. Many more must be lying buried in the Vatican's massive walls and numerous cellars. Vatican is itself the Sanskrit word "Vatica" applied to Hindu cultural-cum-religious centers as in "Ashrama-Vatica" or "Dharma-Vatica" or "Ananda-Vatica." Therefore, the Vatican was obviously a Hindu religious seat before its incumbent was forced to accept Christianity.

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The cylindrical stone in the Kaaba



Here is another view of the black stone at the Kaaba.

As in the headquarters of Christianity (namely the Vatican in Rome) at the headquarters of Islam too (namely in the Kaaba temple in Mecca city of Saudi Arabia) the ancient Hindu Shiva Linga may still be seen. This cylindrical stone, rendered immovable for security by being fixed in the outer corner of a wall, is the object of reverence of all Muslims. Here Muslims still continue the seven perambulations in the age old Hindu style except that they move anti-clockwise. White silver foil shrouds the stone. The oval uncovered central portion gives the pilgrims an idea of how the stone looks. Syrians had once carried away the stone as a war trophy and kept it for 22 years.

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http://www.stephen-knapp.com/photograph ... luence.htm

[Agnimitra]

The very first name that occurs to the student in this connection is that of the Supreme Lord Himself-Ahura-which in the Sanskrit from Asura signifies 'a demon'. The name originally signifies 'the Lord of Life' (from Av. ahu, Skt. asu, life), or the One Life from Whom all proceed. The Sanskrit Asura also signified originally the One Eternal Life, and in the Rig-Veda (in its oldest portions) it is not used in its later degraded signification.

Avesta.org has a direct link to the translation of Zoroaster's hymns by Jatindranath Chaterji. Read the introduction only
http://www.avesta.org/chatterj_opf_files/slideshow.htm

This idea of "asura" having an "originally" positive meaning in "the oldest portions" of the Veda is nonsense.
Also, what is the etymology for the claim that the word "signified originally the One Eternal Life"?

All bona fide texts on Vedic linguistics point out that asuraH can have, BOTH, a positive or negative meaning, depending purely on context.
1. asUsu + ratiH = asuraH -- one who is addicted to (the movements of) the life energy.
2. asUsu + ramati = asuraH -- one who sports in the life energies.

Both hinge on the individual's relationship with the life energy, and by extension the source of life.
It is similar to the Vedic "dAsa" which is used, both, for the bad guys as well as the good guys, each in a very different context.
-------------------------

Here's a part of a lecture by a traditional Zoroastrian priest teacher about the life of Zarathustra, in which he alludes to an OIT situation as portrayed in the traditional sources.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRaTLZxmAuk

[disha]

^^^ JohneeG, the site from Stephen Knapp is known and also his many talks.

The problem with the photographic evidence is that most of them are unattested. For example, Art Photo#6 in Vedic influence in art across the word. It is mentioned that it is found in the museum of corinth. However it is not connected to say any other identification like the catalogue number of the artefact, even the catalogue number of the museum's inventory will do. This then makes it difficult to trace its historicity, for example - when was it found? Which layer was it found? What other images and objects were excavated around it? Where was it actually found? Could it describe a settlement of Indians in Greece? Or was it a trade item?

Given that none of the above can be answered, the evidence above is negated. Worse, if one is going to take down such an important clue, they now know where to find it.

Others for example are Art Photos #10 and #11.

Here is all the catalogue of images taken from the archeological site of Corinth, Greece. http://ascsa.net/research?v=default.

[johneeG]

^^^ JohneeG, the site from Stephen Knapp is known and also his many talks.

The problem with the photographic evidence is that most of them are unattested.

True. I think Stephen Knapp should have mentioned the sources more precisely for the pictures.

For example, Art Photo#6 in Vedic influence in art across the word. It is mentioned that it is found in the museum of corinth. However it is not connected to say any other identification like the catalogue number of the artefact, even the catalogue number of the museum's inventory will do. This then makes it difficult to trace its historicity, for example - when was it found? Which layer was it found? What other images and objects were excavated around it? Where was it actually found? Could it describe a settlement of Indians in Greece? Or was it a trade item?

Given that none of the above can be answered, the evidence above is negated. Worse, if one is going to take down such an important clue, they now know where to find it. Here is all the catalogue of images taken from the archeological site of Corinth, Greece. http://ascsa.net/research?v=default.

Thanks for that link you provided. I searched that site and found the Art Photo#6.

Title: Pastoral mosaic with shepherd
Category Code: bw
Year: 1998
Roll Number: 059
Frame Number: 22
Photographer: Ioannidou - Bartzioti
Size: 35mm
Old Negative: bw-9598
Site: Corinth
City: Corinth
Country: Greece
http://ascsa.net/id/corinth/image/1998_st_059_022

Title: Pastoral mosaic with shepherd
Category Code: bw
Year: 1989
Frame Number: 9598
Size: 18x24
New Negative: 1998-059-22
Date: 1989
Site: Corinth
City: Corinth
Country: Greece
http://ascsa.net/id/corinth/image/1998_st_059_022

Mosaic Floor, Pastoral Scene, 150–200 AD

http://drkoine.com/museums/countries/gr ... -full.html

It seems that the mosaic depicting a pastoral scene was part of a larger floor from a Roman villa found at Ancient Corinth from 150-200 AD.

Pastoral scenes are also commonly found, for example in the aforementioned Roman Villa4
and also from Anaploga5. With regard to geometric elements, intersecting circles, fields of peltae,swastika meander, guilloche and stepped squares are among the more usual elements found6. It could be said in fact that the closest parallels for the Corinthian mosaics can be found in Patras and in Sparta7. For example, a group of mosaics from Patras8 and the mosaic from the property of Paraskevopoulou in Sparta compare well with that of the Mosaic House in the Forum
in Corinth9.

http://www.academia.edu/325761%20/A_New ... the_Colony

It seems Swastikas were popular in ancient Greece and ancient Italy.

Ancient greek coin hemidrachm swastika

http://www.ufo-contact.com/ancient-swas ... m-swastika

Ancient Pompeii floor Swastika

http://www.ufo-contact.com/ancient-swas ... r-swastika

Description
English: Corinthia, Corinth. Circa 550-500 BC. Stater (Silver, 8.61 g). Pegasos, with curved wing, flying to left; below, koppa. Rev. Incuse in the form of a swastika to left. BCD Corinth 3 (this coin). Ravel - (P-/T 54). Very rare and remarkably attractive, perfectly centered and one of the best examples of this type known. Good extremely fine. From the collections of APCW and BCD, Lanz 105, 26 November 2001, 3. This is one of the finest of all archaic Corinthian staters known. Instead of walking, as on the earliest examples of this type, Pegasos is clearly flying here since all his hooves are diagonal and not flat on the ground. The swastika patterned incuse on the reverse is actually a very ancient solar symbol, found in many parts of the world, and has no political meaning.
NOMOS3, 93

10499. MACEDON, AKANTHOS, Circa 470-390 BC. AR Tetrobol (15mm, 2.40 g). Forepart of bull left, head right; Π, swastika, and olive spray above / Quadripartite incuse square. SNG ANS -; SNG Copenhagen -. Good VF, toned. Rare combination of control marks. Ex CNG.

Cows and Bulls seem to be respected icons in ancient Greece.

9385. ILLYRIA, EPIDAMNOS-DYRRHACHIUM, 400-350 BC. AR Stater, Sear 1890. Cow stg. r. looking back at suckling calf/DUR and club around square containing double stellate pattern. EF. Fine old cabinet toning. Excellent example.

http://www.edgarlowen.com/greek-coins-greece.shtml

Others for example are Art Photos #10 and #11.

Stephen Knapp has not mentioned the name of Archeological Site, so I could not find them. I'll search some more...

But, it seems there are a figures named 'Satyr' in ancient Greek literature. Most of the depictions of 'Satyr' in Greek art are similar to Art Photo # 10 (Vali and Sugreeva).

520–500 BCE, from VulciAttic painted vases depict mature satyrs as being strongly built with flat noses, large pointed ears, long curly hair, and full beards, with wreaths of vine or ivy circling their balding heads. Satyrs often carry the thyrsus: the rod of Dionysus tipped with a pine cone.

Satyrs acquired their goat-like aspect through later Roman conflation with Faunus, a carefree Italic nature spirit of similar temperament. Hence satyrs are most commonly described in Latin literature as having the upper half of a man and the lower half of a goat, with a goat's tail in place of the Greek tradition of horse-tailed satyrs. Mature satyrs are often depicted in Roman art with goat's horns, while juveniles are often shown with bony nubs on their foreheads.
...
Their habitat is the forests and mountains.

http://wikishareideas.com/memberarticle ... images-524

So, it seems the Satyrs are supposed to be half-man half-horse in ancient Greek and they were transformed into half-man half-goat in Roman culture.

But, it must be noted that half-man half-horse thingy is the modern day interpretation of Greek art. The art only shows a man like being with a tail and pointed ears(which are interpreted as horse ears. What if those are monkey ears?).

Is it possible that Satyrs are the grecian portrayal of 'Vanaras'(of Ramayana)? Those pointed ears of Satyrs can also be interpreted as monkey ears. Satyrs are supposed to dell in woodlands and are generally depicted as reveling merry making. This depiction tallies with the depiction of 'Vanaras'. In fact, the description of the features of Satyr, particularly the fun-loving nature, are more apt for a half-man half-monkey than half-man half-horse(or half-goat).

Satryrs are depicted as carrying a rod tipped with a pine cone. Maybe it is a depiction of a mace (Vanaras are depicted as carrying a mace in India).

[disha]

Johneeg, thanks for your hardwork and patience.

The third color photo of Krishna in the series is a very good example. Excellent color stone etc. Also the date is given 150-200 AD. This is another example of trade links with India all the way to Greece. I will not be surprised if there were Indians (from calicut/cochin) of Vaishnava sampradaya living in Greece and Italy.

Satyr/Vanara could be a tenous link and the image could be as well of vanara misinterpreted by the curator as satyr. Similarly the swastika has been found across many cultures including Hopi Indians. So it might be a global cometary event.

More importantly is the Rama/Sita/Lakshmana picture. If there is a link and a date attesting it, it will be great - and again it could be between 500 BC to 200 AD. Trade links between Greece/Rome to Southern India are confirmed and not surprising, even not surprising will be an exchange of trade consuls and diplomats and stationing of ambassadors going all the way back to 500 BC. The thrust is towards the "strength" of the trade link indicating a continuous flow of goods and not a one time event.

Here is the conjecture, if a trade link is effectively established in 500 BC., it gathers that effective trade would have begun at least 500 years prior to it. Pushing the date to 1000 BC. It strengthens the argument that trade was the underpinning of human evolution!

[RajeshA]

Description
English: Corinthia, Corinth. Circa 550-500 BC. Stater (Silver, 8.61 g). Pegasos, with curved wing, flying to left; below, koppa. Rev. Incuse in the form of a swastika to left. BCD Corinth 3 (this coin). Ravel - (P-/T 54). Very rare and remarkably attractive, perfectly centered and one of the best examples of this type known. Good extremely fine. From the collections of APCW and BCD, Lanz 105, 26 November 2001, 3. This is one of the finest of all archaic Corinthian staters known. Instead of walking, as on the earliest examples of this type, Pegasos is clearly flying here since all his hooves are diagonal and not flat on the ground. The swastika patterned incuse on the reverse is actually a very ancient solar symbol, found in many parts of the world, and has no political meaning.
NOMOS3, 93

Pegasus could very well be a re-imagining of Uchchaihshravas, also a flying horse. However Uchchaihshravas had seven heads, perhaps 6 too many for the Greeks.

[RajeshA]

Satyrs in Greek Mythology

So, it seems the Satyrs are supposed to be half-man half-horse in ancient Greek and they were transformed into half-man half-goat in Roman culture.

But, it must be noted that half-man half-horse thingy is the modern day interpretation of Greek art. The art only shows a man like being with a tail and pointed ears(which are interpreted as horse ears. What if those are monkey ears?).

Is it possible that Satyrs are the grecian portrayal of 'Vanaras'(of Ramayana)? Those pointed ears of Satyrs can also be interpreted as monkey ears. Satyrs are supposed to dell in woodlands and are generally depicted as reveling merry making. This depiction tallies with the depiction of 'Vanaras'. In fact, the description of the features of Satyr, particularly the fun-loving nature, are more apt for a half-man half-monkey than half-man half-horse(or half-goat).

Satryrs are depicted as carrying a rod tipped with a pine cone. Maybe it is a depiction of a mace (Vanaras are depicted as carrying a mace in India).

johneeG ji,

again like many other finds before by you, this one is also a great find. From the link

In Greek mythology, Satyrs are a troop of male companions of Pan and Dionysus

Though I hate quoting him, Sarh William Jones was of the opinion that Dionysus is another name for Rama, and he too made this connection between Satyrs and Vanaras.

Publication Date: 1784
Author: Sir William Jones
On the Gods of Greece, Italy and India

Page 370

Two incarnate deities of the first rank, RAMA and CRISHNA, must now be introduced and their several attributes distinctly explained. The first of them, I believe, was the DIONYSOS of the Greeks, whom they named BROMIUS, without knowing why, and BUGENES, when they represented him horned, as well as LYAIOS and ELEUTHERIOS, the Deliverer, and TRIAMBOS or DITHYRAMBOS, the Triumphant: most of those titles were adopted by the Romans, by whom he was called BRUMA, TAURIFORMIS, LIBER, TRIUMPHUS; and both nations had records or traditionary accounts of his giving laws to men and deciding their contests, of his improving navigation and commerce, and, what may appear yet more observable, of his conquering India and other countries with an army of Satyrs, commanded by no less a personage than PAN; whom LILIUS GIRALDUS, on what authority I know not, asserts to have resided in Iberia, "when he had returned, says the learned Mythologist, from the Indian war, in which he accompanied BACCHUS." It were superfluous in a mere essay, to run any length in the parallel between this European God and the sovereign of Ayodhya, whom the Hindus believe to have been an appearance on earth of the Preserving Power; to have been a Conqueror of the highest renown, and the Deliverer of nations from tyrants, as well as of his consort SITA from the giant RAVAN, king of Lanca, and to have commanded in chief a numerous and intrepid race of those large Monkeys, which our naturalists, or some of them, have denominated Indian Satyrs: his General, the Prince of Satyrs, was named HANUMAT, or with high cheek bones; and with workmen of such agility, he soon raised a bridge of rocks over the sea, part of which, say the Hindus, yet remains; and it is probably, the series of rocks, to which the Muselmans or the Portuguese have given the foolish name of ADAM's (it should be called RAMA's) bridge. Might not this army of Satyrs have been only a race of mountaineers, whom RAMA, if such a monarch ever existed, had civilized?

Of course, much of what Sarh Jones would conclude, would be complete nonsense, but one can use his comparisons.



As one sees from in the image, Satyrs had long penises, which was probably a way of saying they were very potent, thus strong. You are also right, that in Greek imagery, Satyrs are not considered having lower bodies of goats, but in fact have normal bodies.

So a humanoid, otherwise similar to man, but with a tail, abundant facial hair and muscular, perhaps carrying a stick with a bulky end, is indeed a representation of a Vanara.

[RajeshA]

Another thing I would like to propose is that Gandhara style of sculpturing may not be coming from Greece-Italy but may in fact be something originating in Gandhara and then traveling to Greece and Italy.

If anybody has any theories or papers on this, I would appreciate it.

This in fact would be revolutionary if true, because it would undermine the whole basis of European art, something they very much cherish. The thing is we have been taking it for granted that Gandhara style was derived from the Roman-Greek style of art, but I think this issue needs to be revisited.

[RajeshA]

Taking up a post from "Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies" Thread

Essay on Kushanas and Kanishka's date

http://www.kushan.org/essays/chronology/kanishka.htm

Kanishka is the most famous of the Kushan kings, he is preserved in Bhuddist tradition as the king responsible for calling the second great Bhuddist council. His series of coins is also magnificent, though not as extensive as those of his successor Huvishka. His warlike exploits and the strength of his kingdom are remarkable indeed, and it is felt by most historians that his reign marked the height of Kushan dominance in central Asia.

Unfortunately it has proved beyond the grasp of all those who have studied Kushan history to actually decide when Kanishka came to power, in which year did he become King of the Kushans. This particular problem has inspired a lot of the material on the Kushan empire and even two London conferences on the subject, the first in 1913 and the most recent in 1960. Though without a successful conclusion.

Dates have varied hugely, 57BC, 78AD, 115AD, 128AD, 134AD, 144AD, 230AD, and others. The reason it matters, is that inscriptions in India and Central Asia are date for a hundred years in the era that Kanishka founded. Fixing that era would provide a chronological assistance to art and political historians interested in the history of North India and Central Asia..

Here is another view:

According to Rajatarangini of Kalhana, as per Pandit Kota Venkatachelam, the reign of Kanishka of the Kushans was 1294 BCE to 1234 BCE. The Gandhara style in sculpting had its heyday during Kanishka's reign. That would mean that the Gandhara Buddhist style of sculpting actually preceded Greco-Roman style of sculpting. The West would have us believe that the Gandhara Buddhist style of art is a borrowing from the Greco-Roman style. Is that so? What we consider as Greco-Italian style of art could actually a borrowing from the Gandhara style.



Nothing captures the ancient "Western" civilization as much as their Greek and Roman sculptures. So the question becomes, is the Western sculpture just an outgrowth of Indian Civilization?

CAUTION: It is much too early to say much on this matter. Take it with a pinch of salt. It is simply a matter to research further.

[RajeshA]

Ancient History of Kashmir (Cont.)



Publication Date: 1955
Author: Pandit Kota Venkatachelam
Chronology of Kashmir - Reconstructed

Another blog dealing with the works of Pandit Kota Venkatachelam.

[peter]

Photographic Evidence of the Vedic Influence in Art in Other Parts of the World

---
[..]
---
Egyptian monarch with tilok on forehead, etc.

Hindu administrations, the Sanskrit language, Hindu culture and the Hindu medical system--Ayurved, held sway throughout the ancient world. Monarchs then used to attend court bare-bodied with sacred ash and colour marks on their bodies. This is an Hindu Egyptian monarch of those times. [The 'V' mark is called tilok, and is shown being worn by this Egyptian in the same style that it is still worn by Vaishnavas today in India, on the forehead, arms, neck, chest and belly, representing that one is a worshiper of Lord Krishna or Vishnu.] (Published on page 38 of the Bible Dictionary {appended to the Holy Bible edited by the American Review Committee} and on page 185 of "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar.)
---
Builder of pyramids with Vedic tilok

The Hindu architect of the pyramids looking at an unfolded architectural scroll. He is wearing Hindu marks on his body. This should underline the need to reconstruct the worldwide sway of Hinduism in ancient times currently wiped out of all history. (Published in Egyptian Myth and Legends page 368 and also in "Long Missing Links" by Aiyangar.)
---
[..]

What I can't understand is why do other sculptures from Egypt not show these marks?

Have you come across such examples from Lourve or Hermitage or anywhere else?

Very interesting photos if true.

[johneeG]

What I can't understand is why do other sculptures from Egypt not show these marks?

Have you come across such examples from Lourve or Hermitage or anywhere else?

Very interesting photos if true.

The second picture quoted by you is bogus. It is the bronze image of Imhotep. It is in British museum. Following is the picture:


Few more pictures of the same image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Louvre.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... mhotep.JPG
I checked "The Egyptian Myth" and I did not find any "Tilok" in that image in that book also.


Most probably the first picture quoted by you is also bogus.

---
RajeshA ji,
thanks for the praise. And very good find on William Jones connecting Satyr and Vanara. And also, good initiative on Gandhara.

[RajeshA]

On the Trail of Ekashringah - The Unicorn (Cont.)


From Subhash Kak's "The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India"

Page 66
Unicorns

It is generally agreed that the unicorn of the Harappan iconography is a composite animal whose neck and snout resemble those of the horse or camel, while the legs are equine. The body and the tail are that of the bull.

The unicorn is a very important figure in the Indian texts which points to the continuity with the Harappan period. The Puranas call Vishnu and Shiva by the name of Ekashringa, the "one-horned one." The Shanti-Parva (chapter 343) of the Mahabharata speaks of the one-tusked boar (Varaha) who saves the earth as Vishnu's incarnation. Here Varaha is described as being triple-humped, a figure that we see in the Harappan iconography.

In some engravings, the Harappan unicorn's horn appears to be coming out from a side. In the Sanskrit texts, we have the figure of Shankukarna, "one whose ear is like a nail." The Mahabharata (Vana Parva) informs that there is a temple to Shiva in the name of Shankukarna Mahadeva at the point where the river Sindhu meets the sea.

The Matsya Purana tells us that this Varaha is the same as the Vrishikapi of the Rigveda. The lexicographer Amarasimha asserts that the Vrishakapi represents both Vishnu and Shiva.

Varaha, the heavenly boar-unicorn, is described in the Puranas as having muscular, round and long shoulders, a high waist, and shape of the bull. The different parts of this animal are pictured as representing the Vedas, the altar and so on. The scholar P.N. Mathur has suggested that Varaha originally meant this composite unicorn and it was only later that the meaning was transferred to that of the boar.

___________

The Unicorn on the Harappan seals could be Varaha, an Avtaar of Vishnu. It is interesting that the unicorn got embedded in the Christian theology as well.

[RajeshA]

Books for the Library



Publication Date: 1992
Editor: B.U. Nayak and N.C. Ghosh
Publisher: Aditya Prakashan
New Trends in Indian Art and Archaeology: S.R. Rao's 70th Birthday Felicitation Volumes (2 Vols) [Google] [Alibris]

Code: Select all

Contents: 
Editorial. 

I. Pre-History : 
1. Anangpur--the palaeolithic site near Delhi/A.K. Sharma and S.B. Ota. 
2. Early cultures of a peninsula: Saurashtra in perspectives/Subrata Chakrabarti. 

II. Proto-History : 
1. Megaliths in India--past and present/V. Rami Reddy. 
2. Mirapatti--a new copper hoard/OCP site in the Mid-Ganga valley/Krishna Kumar. 
3. The pottery from the early levels at Batesvara/J.S. Nigam. 
4. Early iron users of Gufkral/A.K. Sharma. 
5. Adam--an index to Vidarbha archaeology/Amarendra Nath. 
6. Black-and-Red ware phase at Atranjikhera and its implications for south India/R.C. Gaur. 
7. Possible animal figures on the broken corner of the Pasupati seal/P.V. Pathak. 
8. Harrappan ports in India/L.S. Rao. 

III. Epigraphy & Numismatics : 
1. Decipherment of Indus script and traditional Indian History/P.N. Mathur. 
2. Decipherment of Indus script: a new attempt/Benille Priyanka. 
3. Linguistic affinities of old Indo-Aryan with classical Greek and Latin/W.W. de Grummond. 
4. The Indus mandala and the Indo-Aryans/Subhash C. Kak. 
5. Boat/Ship motif on the coins from the excavation at Kotasur, West Bengal/N.C. Ghosh. 
6. A Cola village account of AD 1234--reconstructed from an inscription of Acchalpuram/R. Tirumalai. 
7. Excavation at Sanghol district Ludhiana, Punjab: 1985-90. Some new evidence on the cultural sequence/C. Margabandhu. 
8. Rama--his divinity in literature and epigraphy/Ajay Mitra Shastri. 
9. Writing, language and religion of the Harappans and Indo-Aryans/S.R. Rao.

IV. Culture : 
1. Cultural interaction in ancient Orissa/A.K. Pattanayak. 
2. Memorial stones in Tamil Nadu/K. Rajan. 
3. Contribution of Kalinga to Indian culture/K.D. Bajpai. 
4. The culture-scope of the Buddhists in north-east India/S.K. Pathak. 
5. Cultural relations of India with Tibet and China/Narendra Kumar Dash. 

V. Architecture : 
1. The aihole sub-style of Chalukyan sculpture/Ratan Parimoo. 
2. Dhanvantari Mahadeva temple, Baijanatha/B.L. Nagarch. 
3. Evolution of temple architecture in India/K.V. Soundara Rajan. 
4. Pallava rock-cut cave-temple at Avur/D. Dayalan. 
5. A Chalukyan architect at Kanchipuram/R. Nagaswamy. 
6. The end of imagery at Ajanta/Walter M. Spink. 
7. Royal portraits at Vijayanagara: indentification and meaning/Nalini Rao. 

VI. Science, technology and medicine : 
1. Irrigation in ancient India/C.T.M. Kotraiah. 
2. A saptamatrika panel from Khajuraho/K.M. Suresh. 
3. Medicines in ancient period/Mahesh G. Sinai Netravalkar.

VII. Oceanography and marine archaeology : 
1. History of oceanography of the Indian ocean/R. Sengupta. 
2. Ports of later medieval Orissa and a profile of maritime trade/L.N. Raut. 
3. Khalkattapatna: A small port on the coast of Orissa/B.K. Sinha. 
4. Nagapattinam: a medieval Chola port/P. Jayakumar. 
5. From peddavegi to Poompuhar (cultural contacts and explorations on sea routes)/I.K. Sarma. 
6. Geophysical survey of marine archeological sites off east coast of India/T.C.S. Rao. 
7. Hydrographic surveys vs. marine archaeology/Captain K.R. Sreenivasan. 
8. The Charles Cooper in Calcutta: a maritime link between the United States, India and the Falkland Islands/Mensun Bound and David McLeod. 
9. French marine archaeology: a panorama/A. Tchernia and P. Pomey. 
10. Existence and location and Dvaraka city of Mahabharata/B.U. Nayak and S.R. Rao. 
11. Kaveripattinam and ancient port/Sundaresh and P. Gudigar. 
12. Search for Dwarka/Sila Tripati and A.S. Gaur. 
13. Indian sea-god through literature, archaeology, iconography, anthropology and epigraphy/L.B. Kenny. 
14. Oceanographic evidences of the great floods at 2,000 and 1500 BC documented in archaeological records/Rajiv Nigam and Neloy Khare.

VIII. Politico-Economic conditions : 
1. Socio-economic conditions of the period of minor dynasties in Andhra/M.D. Sampath. 
2. Central administration in Vijayanagar/G.S. Dikshit. 
3. The Mahabharata in Kannada/G. Venkatasubiah. 
4. Ancient Indian society as known from Kalidasa/Narendra Kumar Dash. 
5. Aryan invasion of India, Indo-Gangetic valley cultures/K.R. Alur. 
6. Early upanishads and Egypt (1400-1350 BC)/S.B. Roy. 
7. Banking practices in India (Upto AD 1600)/S. Gururajachar. 
8. The last days of the end of the Kalachuri of Tripuri dynasty/S. Subramonia Iyer. 
9. Non-glazed pottery in medieval India/K.K. Muhammed.

[RajeshA]

Would anybody be knowing who "P.N. Mathur" is from the above two posts?

[A_Gupta]

http://youtu.be/Ln5QgeCL1fs
(Not for the Humor-challenged).

[RajeshA]

http://youtu.be/Ln5QgeCL1fs
(Not for the Humor-challenged).

Well yes it is surely funny.

But humor has always been one of the most effective counter-arguments. Why do you think we have got BENIS Thread? We could have a thread about the British as well on the same lines, but for that we would have to first find some Indians who would need to give a damn about the Brits! That may be more difficult than one thinks! Is there even a single Brit who captivates Indians today?

[peter]

What I can't understand is why do other sculptures from Egypt not show these marks?

Have you come across such examples from Lourve or Hermitage or anywhere else?

Very interesting photos if true.

The second picture quoted by you is bogus. It is the bronze image of Imhotep. It is in British museum. Following is the picture:


Few more pictures of the same image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Louvre.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... mhotep.JPG
I checked "The Egyptian Myth" and I did not find any "Tilok" in that image in that book also.


Most probably the first picture quoted by you is also bogus.

-[..]

So where does this leave us? Is Frawley wrong on these pictures in broad daylight? Are you going to write to him? Hope he withdraws them.

The "Krishna" picture looks very interesting. Would you know if this picture has any associated mythology from italy or any other western european nation?

Even the Ram Sita pictures are very striking. Is there provenance certain?

[peter]

Another thing I would like to propose is that Gandhara style of sculpturing may not be coming from Greece-Italy but may in fact be something originating in Gandhara and then traveling to Greece and Italy.

If anybody has any theories or papers on this, I would appreciate it.

This in fact would be revolutionary if true, because it would undermine the whole basis of European art, something they very much cherish. The thing is we have been taking it for granted that Gandhara style was derived from the Roman-Greek style of art, but I think this issue needs to be revisited.

Would you know if there is a precursoe civilization in the vicinity of Greece who used to draw/sculpt their people naked?

Were their other places besides India were naked portraits were rather common?

[RajeshA]

Shakti-Hekate Evolution

From Wikipedia:

Hecate has been characterized as a pre-Olympian chthonic goddess. She appears in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter and in Hesiod's Theogony, where she is promoted strongly as a great goddess. The place of origin of her following is uncertain, but it is thought that she had popular followings in Thrace. Her most important sanctuary was Lagina, a theocratic city-state in which the goddess was served by eunuchs. Lagina, where the famous temple of Hecate drew great festal assemblies every year, lay close to the originally Macedonian colony of Stratonikeia, where she was the city's patroness. In Thrace she played a role similar to that of lesser-Hermes, namely a governess of liminal regions (particularly gates) and the wilderness, bearing little resemblance to the night-walking crone some neo-pagans believe her to be.[neutrality is disputed] Additionally, this led to her role of aiding women in childbirth and the raising of young men.

The first literature mentioning Hecate is the Theogony by Hesiod:
[...] Hecate whom Zeus the son of Cronos honored above all. He gave her splendid gifts, to have a share of the earth and the unfruitful sea. She received honor also in starry heaven, and is honored exceedingly by the deathless gods. For to this day, whenever any one of men on earth offers rich sacrifices and prays for favor according to custom, he calls upon Hecate. Great honor comes full easily to him whose prayers the goddess receives favorably, and she bestows wealth upon him; for the power surely is with her. For as many as were born of Earth and Ocean amongst all these she has her due portion. The son of Cronos did her no wrong nor took anything away of all that was her portion among the former Titan gods: but she holds, as the division was at the first from the beginning, privilege both in earth, and in heaven, and in sea.

According to Hesiod, she held sway over many things:

"Whom she will she greatly aids and advances: she sits by worshipful kings in judgement, and in the assembly whom she will is distinguished among the people. And when men arm themselves for the battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory and grant glory readily to whom she will. Good is she also when men contend at the games, for there too the goddess is with them and profits them: and he who by might and strength gets the victory wins the rich prize easily with joy, and brings glory to his parents. And she is good to stand by horsemen, whom she will: and to those whose business is in the grey discomfortable sea, and who pray to Hecate and the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker, easily the glorious goddess gives great catch, and easily she takes it away as soon as seen, if so she will. She is good in the byre with Hermes to increase the stock. The droves of kine and wide herds of goats and flocks of fleecy sheep, if she will, she increases from a few, or makes many to be less. So, then, albeit her mother's only child, she is honored amongst all the deathless gods. And the son of Cronos made her a nurse of the young who after that day saw with their eyes the light of all-seeing Dawn. So from the beginning she is a nurse of the young, and these are her honours.

Hesiod emphasizes that Hecate was an only child, the daughter of Perses and Asteria, a star-goddess who was the sister of Leto (the mother of Artemis and Apollo). Grandmother of the three cousins was Phoebe the ancient Titaness who personified the moon.

Hesiod's inclusion and praise of Hecate in the Theogony has been troublesome for scholars, in that he seems to hold her in high regard, while the testimony of other writers, and surviving evidence, suggests that this was probably somewhat exceptional. It is theorized that Hesiod's original village had a substantial Hecate following and that his inclusion of her in the Theogony was a way of adding to her prestige by spreading word of her among his readers. However, it is clear that the special position given to Hecate by Zeus is upheld throughout her history by depictions found on coins depicting Hecate on the hand of Zeus as highlighted in more recent research presented by d'Este and Rankine.

Hecate possibly originated among the Carians of Anatolia, the region where most theophoric names invoking Hecate, such as Hecataeus or Hecatomnus, the father of Mausolus, are attested, and where Hecate remained a Great Goddess into historical times, at her unrivalled cult site in Lagina. While many researchers favor the idea that she has Anatolian origins, it has been argued that "Hecate must have been a Greek goddess." The monuments to Hecate in Phrygia and Caria are numerous but of late date.

If Hecate's cult spread from Anatolia into Greece, it is possible it presented a conflict, as her role was already filled by other more prominent deities in the Greek pantheon, above all by Artemis and Selene. This line of reasoning lies behind the widely accepted hypothesis that she was a foreign deity who was incorporated into the Greek pantheon. Other than in the Theogony, the Greek sources do not offer a consistent story of her parentage, or of her relations in the Greek pantheon: sometimes Hecate is related as a Titaness, and a mighty helper and protector of humans. Her continued presence was explained by asserting that, because she was the only Titan who aided Zeus in the battle of gods and Titans, she was not banished into the underworld realms after their defeat by the Olympians.

1) "And when men arm themselves for the battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory and grant glory readily to whom she will." - This sounds a lot like "Shakti, de maan"!

2) If Hekate is in the hands of Zeus, that too seems a lot like the Chief of the Gods having Shakti in his hands, being Shaktiman!

3) Hekate power being felt on Earth, Heavens and Sea, also mirrors the ubiquity of the Shakti principle.

4) Where her worship was prominent, these places could have been outposts of Bharatiyas.

[peter]

Shakti-Hekate Evolution

From Wikipedia:

Hecate has been characterized as a pre-Olympian chthonic goddess. She appears in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter and in Hesiod's Theogony, where she is promoted strongly as a great goddess. The place of origin of her following is uncertain, but it is thought that she had popular followings in Thrace. Her most important sanctuary was Lagina, a theocratic city-state in which the goddess was served by eunuchs. Lagina, where the famous temple of Hecate drew great festal assemblies every year, lay close to the originally Macedonian colony of Stratonikeia, where she was the city's patroness. In Thrace she played a role similar to that of lesser-Hermes, namely a governess of liminal regions (particularly gates) and the wilderness, bearing little resemblance to the night-walking crone some neo-pagans believe her to be.[neutrality is disputed] Additionally, this led to her role of aiding women in childbirth and the raising of young men.

The first literature mentioning Hecate is the Theogony by Hesiod:
[...] Hecate whom Zeus the son of Cronos honored above all. He gave her splendid gifts, to have a share of the earth and the unfruitful sea. She received honor also in starry heaven, and is honored exceedingly by the deathless gods. For to this day, whenever any one of men on earth offers rich sacrifices and prays for favor according to custom, he calls upon Hecate. Great honor comes full easily to him whose prayers the goddess receives favorably, and she bestows wealth upon him; for the power surely is with her. For as many as were born of Earth and Ocean amongst all these she has her due portion. The son of Cronos did her no wrong nor took anything away of all that was her portion among the former Titan gods: but she holds, as the division was at the first from the beginning, privilege both in earth, and in heaven, and in sea.

According to Hesiod, she held sway over many things:

"Whom she will she greatly aids and advances: she sits by worshipful kings in judgement, and in the assembly whom she will is distinguished among the people. And when men arm themselves for the battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory and grant glory readily to whom she will. Good is she also when men contend at the games, for there too the goddess is with them and profits them: and he who by might and strength gets the victory wins the rich prize easily with joy, and brings glory to his parents. And she is good to stand by horsemen, whom she will: and to those whose business is in the grey discomfortable sea, and who pray to Hecate and the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker, easily the glorious goddess gives great catch, and easily she takes it away as soon as seen, if so she will. She is good in the byre with Hermes to increase the stock. The droves of kine and wide herds of goats and flocks of fleecy sheep, if she will, she increases from a few, or makes many to be less. So, then, albeit her mother's only child, she is honored amongst all the deathless gods. And the son of Cronos made her a nurse of the young who after that day saw with their eyes the light of all-seeing Dawn. So from the beginning she is a nurse of the young, and these are her honours.

Hesiod emphasizes that Hecate was an only child, the daughter of Perses and Asteria, a star-goddess who was the sister of Leto (the mother of Artemis and Apollo). Grandmother of the three cousins was Phoebe the ancient Titaness who personified the moon.

Hesiod's inclusion and praise of Hecate in the Theogony has been troublesome for scholars, in that he seems to hold her in high regard, while the testimony of other writers, and surviving evidence, suggests that this was probably somewhat exceptional. It is theorized that Hesiod's original village had a substantial Hecate following and that his inclusion of her in the Theogony was a way of adding to her prestige by spreading word of her among his readers. However, it is clear that the special position given to Hecate by Zeus is upheld throughout her history by depictions found on coins depicting Hecate on the hand of Zeus as highlighted in more recent research presented by d'Este and Rankine.

Hecate possibly originated among the Carians of Anatolia, the region where most theophoric names invoking Hecate, such as Hecataeus or Hecatomnus, the father of Mausolus, are attested, and where Hecate remained a Great Goddess into historical times, at her unrivalled cult site in Lagina. While many researchers favor the idea that she has Anatolian origins, it has been argued that "Hecate must have been a Greek goddess." The monuments to Hecate in Phrygia and Caria are numerous but of late date.

If Hecate's cult spread from Anatolia into Greece, it is possible it presented a conflict, as her role was already filled by other more prominent deities in the Greek pantheon, above all by Artemis and Selene. This line of reasoning lies behind the widely accepted hypothesis that she was a foreign deity who was incorporated into the Greek pantheon. Other than in the Theogony, the Greek sources do not offer a consistent story of her parentage, or of her relations in the Greek pantheon: sometimes Hecate is related as a Titaness, and a mighty helper and protector of humans. Her continued presence was explained by asserting that, because she was the only Titan who aided Zeus in the battle of gods and Titans, she was not banished into the underworld realms after their defeat by the Olympians.

1) "And when men arm themselves for the battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory and grant glory readily to whom she will." - This sounds a lot like "Shakti, de maan"!

2) If Hekate is in the hands of Zeus, that too seems a lot like the Chief of the Gods having Shakti in his hands, being Shaktiman!

3) Hekate power being felt on Earth, Heavens and Sea, also mirrors the ubiquity of the Shakti principle.

4) Where her worship was prominent, these places could have been outposts of Bharatiyas.

Chronologically what is the earliest reference to Hekate in the western world? This can help date the S->H.

[RajeshA]

Books for the Library




Publication Date: 2012

The Argumentative Hindu - Essays by a Non-Affiliated Orientalist
Author: Koenraad Elst

Description
The Argumentative Hindu is the person who rejects the imposed “secularism” consensus. The author, Dr. Koenraad Elst, is a non-affiliated Orientalist who sympathizes with this Hindu dissenter. But he also made himself some enemies, not only among the secularists but also among the very Hindus whose cause he champions. In this book, he defends himself against their criticism and more importantly, the late mentors from whom he got his view of Hinduism and of the challenges to its survival: Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel. He also makes some new suggestions to his Hindu friends, on how to be more effective and how to remedy existing errors.

Today, illiteracy about Hinduism among Hindus, the limitations of their knowledge to a very small part of their heritage, is the most consequential weakness in the struggle for survival. Stunted ideological development and an anachronistic worldview are serious obstacles to be tackled if every a genuine reaffirmation of Hindu civilization is to win through.

This book is a collection of papers written in the last few years, to wake up the Hindus to their mistakes as well as to their potential.

Contents

Code: Select all

Introduction. 
1. Reviews. 
2. Humour in Hinduism. 
3. A dubious quotation, a controversial reputation: the merits of Lord Macaulay. 
4. Karma. 
5. Internet discussions. 
6. Hindus and history. 
7. The decline of the Sangh Parivar. 
8. Secularism. 
9. Discrimination against Hindus in India’s constitution. 
10. Ramachandra Guha. 
11. Racism among Hindus? 
12. Censorship and the academy. 
13. Meera Nanda against Hinduism and its friends. 
14. The case for orientalism. 
15. Ayodhya’s three history debates. 
16. Hindu survival: what is to be done. 
Index

Review

Published on Nov 16, 2012
By Navaratna S. Rajaram
Elst on Saving Hindus From Their Own Follies: Folks Magazine

Koenraad Elst’s latest book is a collection of his views on Hindus and Hinduism. While well intentioned, it tends to give a misleading picture by focusing on personalities more than issues. Readers need to distinguish between transient trends and those likely to prove more enduring.

The Argumentative Hindu: Essays by a non-affiliated Orientalist (Aditya Prakashan, 518 pages, Rs 450 PB) is Koenraad Elst’s latest book on the state of Hindu society and civilization which he sees as being dangerously adrift. As with his other recent works it seeks to diagnose its ills and offer prescriptions for their remedy. In his words, the book is meant to address the “illiteracy about Hinduism among Hindus” which he sees as “the most consequential weakness in the struggle for survival.” The book is written, we are told, “to wake up the Hindus to their mistakes as well as their potential.”

This may sound suspiciously like an evangelist heaping abuse on the heathen to save his soul, but there can be no doubting the author’s sincerity or good intentions. Some may not take kindly to his superior tone— he speaks also of the Hindus’ “Stunted ideological development and an anachronistic worldview…,” language that can lead some to infer he has a low opinion of the intellectual and moral capacity of his readers. The author should not be surprised if his readers are equally unsparing in their reactions. It is called Newton’s Third Law.

The book has as subtitle “Essays by a non-affiliated Orientalist”. It means the author is not affiliated with any organization— political or educational. This can be both a strength and a weakness: it allows him to take independent positions on issues; at the same time, when commenting on academic disputes to which he devotes considerable attention, his ignorance of the inner workings of academia can lead him astray to conclusions that at best naïve, at worst totally wrong. No one, especially an academic, likes to admit defeat in public. So one cannot take their public postures at face value, which Elst invariably does. This is apparent for example in the case of the Harvard linguist Michael Witzel and his political activities.

AIT and Witzel: missing the real story

It is worth looking at this case, especially Witzel’s involvement in the California textbook affair which the author sees an example of Hindu bungling (quite rightly) and as an unmixed triumph for Witzel in having his pet Aryan theory (AIT) retained in school books (theories on which Witzel’s own career and reputation depend). Elst ignores Witzel’s personal stake by giving a simplistic account based on some internet reports and the propaganda put out by partisan websites, colored by his own views of what Hindus should have done. Having never served on the faculty of any institution Elst does not realize that curriculum change is an agonizingly slow process with many turns and twists. One has only to look at how schools in America are still grappling with the far more important problem of teaching the theory of evolution.

The AIT is nowhere near as important as teaching evolution and the stakes were high mainly for the career and reputation of Witzel and his colleagues. Seeing it in this light we get a very different picture of the episode and its aftermath. Witzel and the California Education Department paid a heavy price both financially and in credibility and goodwill. Elst completely misses this side, especially the financial angle— that it was pressure (and incentives) from the publishers that brought Witzel into the picture in the first place. And he soon found himself in disreputable company with fly by night evangelical outfits, communist groups and the like, hardly worthy of a senior professor at a prestigious university proud of its liberal credentials.

Elst also seems to have an exaggerated idea of the enduring power of the Aryan invasion theory and of academics (like Witzel) who subscribe to it. The fact is both are headed into the dustbin of history. In 2005, when Witzel and his ilk were fighting to save it, the Journal of Indo-European Studies carried an article titled “Collapse of the Aryan invasion theory” by the respected Greek Vedic scholar Nicolas Kazanas. Also, Witzel took a beating in the media, in India and even in the Boston Globe, his home newspaper. It was a disaster for Witzel, his department and the whole academic discipline he represents.

By then the collapse of AIT was already old hat. Where are its advocates today? Mostly in the wilderness, fighting a losing battle to save themselves and their programs from being eliminated by universities from Berlin to Cambridge (England) to Cambridge (Massachusetts) and beyond. Witzel’s own department no longer exists and he has hardly any students. His tour of India where he tried to drum up support for his program was an embarrassment. He was held to ridicule even by school children questioning his Sanskrit while at the prestigious India International Centre in Delhi, the venerable scholar Kapila Vatsayan politely but firmly put him in his place. Neither did Witzel cover himself with glory during the notorious campaign against Subramanian Swamy. He is now a dinosaur but Harvard is stuck with him because he is a tenured professor.

Here is the official version from the Harvard Crimson: [Wtizel’s] Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies has laid out plans to adopt a more interdisciplinary focus as the renamed Department of South Asian Studies— a move… that professors hope would attract more concentrators [read students] and faculty affiliated with other departments. …the department will draw from other departments like anthropology, history, religion, folklore and mythology, music, and archeology to expand its current faculty from eight to 15 professors, according to Sanskrit Professor Michael E. J. Witzel. The change would also allow the department—which had only three declared undergraduate concentrators this past year…” This was in 2010. Today the situation is worse. The shuffling has yielded little result.

Here is the real story: Witzel was fighting for the survival of his department (and his academic reputation) by demonstrating its importance in far off California and failed. He had better resources than his unsophisticated Hindu opponents: text book publishers and their friends in the California Department of Education who didn’t want to go to the trouble and expense of revising textbooks. None of this convinced his superiors at Harvard. His ‘success’ if any was at best temporary a public relations victory on internet, but the damage was permanent: loss of credibility for Witzel followed by the closure of his department and program. Elst’s isolation made him miss all this.

(Here is something else: Witzel had compelling personal reasons. Alan Bersin, the California Secretary of Education at the time was also on Harvard’s Board of Overseers with which Witzel was already in hot water because of complaints over his IER hate group. Bersin was certainly in a position to give Witzel’s superiors at Harvard the true picture beyond the hype and the publicity. The real motive behind Witzel’s otherwise inexplicable involvement in California state affairs might have been a desire to impress Bersin—an influential voice at Harvard—the value of his work. The full story of this bizarre episode remains to be written.)

Personalizing science

This episode merits some attention because it illustrates the hazards of basing a narrative on personalities rather than issues. Personalities come and go while issues change much more slowly but have lasting impact. (Whatever happened to Angana Chatterji by the way?) The real issue today is no longer the Aryan invasion but rebuilding a foundation for the study of ancient history on a scientific basis. Several publications today treat the Aryan theories in the same light as Creation science and reject papers that use it. This needs to be mentioned because the author devotes a great deal of attention to personalities like Meera Nanda and their positions. Real issues tend to get subsumed, even sidelined by his preoccupation with personalities.

It is a similar story with OIT (Out of India Theory), which Elst and a few of his colleagues like Shrikant Talageri are holding up as an alternative to the AIT. If something like OIT eventually becomes established it will not be because of the methodology or reasons they are espousing. It will be for reasons of science, natural history and genetics in particular. As things are shaping up at present, linguistic similarities can be traced to major disturbances in the natural world going back 70,000 years, perhaps more.

A major part of the problem is that Elst (and his valued colleagues like Talageri) have no inkling of science. When they get into disputes on scientific matters they muddle the issue. Here is an example. When S. Kalyanaraman complained in a letter charging that biologist Mark Stoneking was trying to prove the AIT by using a circular argument, Elst sprang to Stoneking’s defense writing (in first person): “It is simply not true that Stoneking ‘proved the AIT using the AIT’. His paper argues that there was an inflow of genes from Central Asia to India…”

This is demonstrably wrong— for one can always find some gene exchange between any two populations; the issue is the quantum and age of the genetic marker in question and the population with the greater diversity (which happens to be India). Unlike Elst, Stoneking could not have been ignorant of this but still went on to drop a sly hint that it fits Romila Thapar’s (and Witzel’s) invasion-migration model.

So Kalyanaraman’s complaint was not without merit. But Elst will have none of it. He notes that nothing happened to the scientist in question, with the authorities standing by him—they always do against an outsider but negatives tend to accumulate over time as happened with Witzel. Still not satisfied, Elst describes the Hindu opposition to the AIT as being monopolized by crackpots. (This crackpot brigade includes Hindus and non-Hindus like this reviewer, geneticists Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, Stephen Oppenheimer, and archaeologists B.B. Lal, S.R. Rao, R.S. Bisht and others.)

But Elst doesn’t want to leave the ‘crackpot’ Kalyanaraman even at that. He gratuitously adds “But then it is precisely Dr. [another crackpot not named here] and Dr. Kalyanaraman who always jump to conclusions on the basis of very tentative and provisional genetic research finding.” This is hardly the language calculated to win friends and influence people especially from one ignorant of science to the point of not knowing depth of his own ignorance. It was also totally unnecessary; nothing was achieved and no knowledge was advanced by this pointless but highly personalized polemic. It was a case of polemics for the sake of polemics.

Weakness of Hindu intellectuals

A running theme in the author’s recent writings, including The Argumentative Hindu is the decline of Hindu intellectuals. In this the author harks back to his mentors Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel, especially the latter who provided an intellectual foundation for nationalism. He laments their passing and also the fact that such vigor and intellect is absent among present day workers. This may be so, but as the author himself notes, their work is now common property and many of their ideas have been adopted by Hindus and non-Hindus worldwide as a valid school of thought. Elst himself is an example— a protégé of Ram Swarup and Goel, yet a critic of the deficiencies of their followers. This is a healthy sign.

This is not to suggest there is no room for improvement. The author is very much on the mark when he accuses Hindu intellectuals of lethargy and tendency to slip into obscurantism in the name of spirituality. Their leadership would do well to pay heed to author’s well thought out criticisms. One should ignore his provocative language and listen to his sound criticisms. Where the author goes wrong is when he ventures into unfamiliar territory like science (genetics) and public affairs where he fails to distinguish between transient trends and enduring substance.

One cannot do full justice to a book that covers such a large territory. There are discussions of karma and rebirth, humor in Hinduism, Macaulay, historicity of the Vedas and the like in which he expresses opinions on these and other topics where the reader has to accept or reject them based on one’s own beliefs and prejudices. This reviewer found most of them to be familiar and a few, like his interpretation of apauresheya, to be plain wrong. Philosophy, at least Indian philosophy, metaphysics in particular is not the author’s strength. He is too literal minded to see the nuances of philosophy and science.

At the same time the patient reader with a forgiving spirit will find the book thought provoking even if the author’s positions are not always sound. The book would have benefited from a strong editorial hand and a language less strident. To be effective criticism is best expressed in moderate language and small doses. There is no denying Elst’s intentions or knowledge but an excess of personalized polemics can be counterproductive.

Internet ‘publication’

An unusual feature of the book is the chapter titled Internet Discussions. It is a rambling account of the author’s many exchanges with various individuals on topics ranging from Witzel’s California campaign (but not his fiasco in India or the Subramanian Swamy scandal) to Rama’s Bridge to Sati and Vedic Seers. In these the author liberally quotes himself— a practice he follows throughout the book. This has its drawbacks like the risk of reproducing in print unseemly language from an unguarded personal exchange.

The practice though raises a ticklish question for publishers: this being the internet age, what are publishers and editors to do upon receiving a ‘manuscript’ made up of printouts of internet exchanges? One is also left wondering for whose benefit these exchanges are reproduced in print. Are they meant to emulate Albert Einstein’s Ideas and Opinions, a posthumous compilation by others?

In summary, Koenraad Elst has produced a trenchant book of opinions spanning a wide range of topics of interest to students of India, both Hindu and non-Hindu. It covers familiar ground covered by him and by others in previous works. As a long time India watcher, his observations are always relevant and thought provoking, but unlike some of his previous works, notably Negationism in India, The Argumentative Hindu contains no radically new ideas or insights.

[RajeshA]

1) Would you know if there is a precursor civilization in the vicinity of Greece who used to draw/sculpt their people naked?

2) Were their other places besides India were naked portraits were rather common?

3) Chronologically what is the earliest reference to Hekate in the western world? This can help date the S->H.

Good questions peter ji. Should you come across some answers, please do post them here.

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 30, 2012
By Archana Mishra
Resurrecting Mahishasur: Decca Herald

Students in JNU seeking socio-political and cultural reforms on Monday picked gods and demons mentioned in mythology, in an effort to question the imposed ideologies by observing ‘Mahishasur’s Martyrdom Day’.

It sounds arbitrary that Mahishasur, a mythological demon, was referred to as a martyr by the All India Backward Students Forum (AIBSF). The reason was that students were trying to challenge the hegemony of one sect over the other.

Elaborating on this belief, Vinay Kumar, AIBSF JNU unit said, “Mahishasur was a king of the ‘Anarya’ (Asur) race and a native of the region. When Aryans invaded they wanted to be the rulers so they sent ‘Durga’ to slay Mahishasur. As ‘Durga’ was the ‘shaktiavtaar’, she was able to do what the others in Aryan community had not been able to do.”

“So, by observing the Day we questioned why Mahishasur, was projected as a demon. Secondly, there were changes at the religious, social, cultural and political level after Mahishasur’s death. This can be gauged from the fact that there has been a predominance of Brahminical hegemony in almost every ancient literary work.

The society was divided leading to distinction among communities,” says Vinay.

He believes that changes can be brought about by scrapping history, “Today, scholars are looking at history from all aspects. They are working on the authenticity of the content in books. Changes are possible only when new studies are added to the age-old texts which can change ancient beliefs and help bring rationality in society.”

“We have no intention of harming religious sentiments of certain groups. The changes can be wrought by having broader mindsets and by distancing ourselves from imposed ideologies,” says Vinay.

Posters of the Mahishasur Martyrdom Day are already up. “Thirty big posters had been put up at different places in the campus. The posters are from the cover story of India's leading academic magazine ‘Forward Press’ which, on the basis of a study has found that 'Asurs’ are a tribe still found in Jharkhand,” says Jitendra Yadav.

Last year, tension simmered in JNU when the day was observed. Student organisations had clashed with each other and the university administration had issued show cause notice against AIBSF President Jitendra Yadav. However, last year’s incident has not stopped AIBSF from observing the day again this time.

So Mahishasur is now being revered because there some people around in India, who believe in the Aryan Invasion Theory! Sigh!

We still have a long way to go! Aryan Invasion Theory has trickled down and become an intrinsic part of the political narrative in the country!

[RajeshA]

Online Books

The Meaning of Vedas
Author: Ravindra Godbole

Foreword

Translator’s Foreword

Statement of Hypothesis

Biodata of the Author

Chapter 1: The Interpretation of Ŗgveda

Chapter 2: Taurids

Chapter 3: Rudra and Maruts - 1

Chapter 4: Rudra and Maruts - 2

Chapter 5: Meteoric Showers, Rudra and Indus Civilization

Chapter 6: Agasti and Skanda

Chapter 7: Indus Civilization, Natural Glass and Soma

Chapter 8: Seals from the Indus Civilization - 1

Chapter 9: Seals from the Indus Civilization - 2

Chapter 10: Pravargya Ritual

Chapter 11: Vedic Pottery and Gray-ware

Chapter 12: Indus Civilization, Vedic Literature and Soma

Chapter 13: Āditya and Unicorn

Chapter 14: Birth of Indra – A Catastrophe Described

The Light from Vedas - I

Chapter 15: Vishnu from Ŗgveda

Chapter 16: Comets, Craters and Puranas

Chapter 17: ‘Sautramani’ and ‘Mahavrata’

Chapter 18: 3102 B.C.

Chapter 19: Glass Technology - Mayasabha

Chapter 20: Bhaga, Savitr and Pushan

Chapter 21: Skanda in Mahabharata

Chapter 22: References from Mahabharata

Chapter 23: Ashwinikumars

Chapter 24: Ekata, Dvita and Trita

Chapter 25: Darshapurnamasa Ishti

The Light from Vedas - II

Chapter 26: Tragic Tale of a Ravaged City - 1

Chapter 27: Tragic Tale of a Ravaged City - 2

Chapter 28: The Unquestionable Validity of Vedas

Chapter 29: The Light from Vedas

Pronunciation Symbols and Key to Transliteration

Annexure

References

PDF Version

----------------------------

The above are theories. It is good that the author is applying his mind to it, but it can just as well be possible that the above mentioned text may refer to some different phenomena, astronomical or otherwise. So the theories presented here, need not be considered as some revealed truth, but should be evaluated on their merits.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from an earlier post,

2,500 years ago, a city bigger than Athens in Orissa

[RajeshA]

Greeks writings on India

The Life of Apollonius


Author: Flavius Philostratus (170-247 AD)
Translator: F.C. Conybeare

Description
In the Life of Apollonius, the Athenian author Philostratus, a sophist who lived from c.170 to c.247, tells the story of Apollonius of Tyana, a charismatic teacher and miracle worker from the first century CE who belonged to the school of Pythagoras. (A summary can be found here.) It is an apologetic work, in which Philostratus tries to show that Philostratus was a man with divine powers, but not a magician. He also pays attention to Apollonius' behavior as a sophist.

Although the hero is known from several other sources, Philostratus' vie romancée is our most important source. Scholars studying the life of the Tyanaean sage -whose miraculous acts have often been compared to the miracles of Jesus of Nazareth- have tried to establish the sources of Philostratus' books (e.g., letters and Damis) in order to come as close as possible to the historical truth. These attempts are described here.

Chapter 3, §49

"And the phoenix," he said, "is the bird which visits Egypt every five hundred years, but the rest of that time it flies about in India; and it is unique in that it gives out rays of sunlight and shines with gold, in size and appearance like an eagle; and it sits upon the nest; which is made by it at the springs of the Nile out of spices. The story of the Egyptians about it, that it comes to Egypt, is testified to by the Indians also, but the latter add this touch to the story, that the phoenix which is being consumed in its nest sings funeral strains for itself. And this is also done by the swans according to the account of those who have the wit to hear them."[1]

Note 1:
This may be a description of Garuda, the golden bird of Vishnu.

[RajeshA]

Mythology



Publication Date: 1855

Bulfinch's Mythology - The Age of Fable or Stories of Gods and Heroes [Gutenberg Project]
Author: Thomas Bulfinch

The Griffin or Gryphon

The Griffin is a monster with the body of a lion, the head and wings of an eagle, and back covered with feathers. Like birds it builds its nest, and instead of an egg lays an agate therein. It has long claws and talons of such a size that the people of that country make them into drinking-cups. India was assigned as the native country of the Griffins. They found gold in the mountains and built their nests of it, for which reason their nests were very tempting to the hunters, and they were forced to keep vigilant guard over them. Their instinct led them to know where buried treasures lay, and they did their best to keep plunderers at a distance.

I can't comment on how far the Indian origin seems plausible.

[RajeshA]

It seems that many mythological "beasts" known in Europe, have their origin in India

1) Phoenix <-- Garuda

2) Unicorn <-- Ekashringa

3) Griffin <-- ?

4) Dragon <-- Vritra