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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 07:09 
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shiv wrote:
ashi wrote:

Last few days there is news spread around that J-10B is entering service next year. If that is true, we will know what engine they put in production soon.

Ashi-ji, do you know why western companies do not worry about exporting engines - at least civilian ones to almost any nation. This is because
1. They make money
2. They know damn well that engines cannot be cloned

Either way these engines are on display to anyone who wants to see them. But Chinese engines do not even make it to airshows outside China. What is there to hide? I will answer that question. I think that Chinese are so hooked on not being shamed that no one wants to admit failures. And in the Chinese communist system anyone who brings shame will be punished and punishment by death or imprisonment is common for offences seen as inimical to the state. Therefore the Chinese will only gloat and boast about successes. They will never mention failures. Only Pakistanis believe that. Any nation that actually works on technology will know that there can be failures and will admit them.

There are political reasons in China that demand that the Chinese state shows only progress, prosperity and leadership. The communist party oligarchy takes credit for that. So China never has failures. All successes. Your engines are perfect. You fighters don't crash. Your nation has done in 1 year what the US took 40 years to do. Go tell that to the admiring Chinese people and your united partners in Tibet, Xinjiang, Pakistan and North Korea. They have an eager audience listening to you.


How many failures happened before don't matter. Success is all it counts.

I remembered a decade ago that forum members here used to dismiss every photo of J-10 as photoshop products, when J-10 finally flew in public, "oh it flew like a cargo plane" "Oh it is crap". This is being repeated for j-20 and j-31,and the future new products. Something is just never changed here, but I enjoyed reading that...

Can't wait for another decade. :-)


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 07:10 
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shiv,
point acknowledged.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 07:26 
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ashi wrote:
I remembered a decade ago that forum members here used to dismiss every photo of J-10 as photoshop products, when J-10 finally flew in public, "oh it flew like a cargo plane" "Oh it is crap". This is being repeated for j-20 and j-31,and the future new products. Something is just never changed here, but I enjoyed reading that...


Like the way Chinese forums treated F-35 and LCA . hmm....? We too are watching.. :wink:


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 07:40 
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ashi wrote:
How many failures happened before don't matter. Success is all it counts.

I remembered a decade ago that forum members here used to dismiss every photo of J-10 as photoshop products, when J-10 finally flew in public, "oh it flew like a cargo plane" "Oh it is crap". This is being repeated for j-20 and j-31,and the future new products. Something is just never changed here, but I enjoyed reading that...



"Failures of the past don't matter. Success is what counts" explains exactly what i am trying to say.

Chinese failures in the past are well known despite denials.

Chinese successes are in the future (for which you are going to wait a decade)

It is the present that I am talking about, with a history of failure in the past and success still in the future. I believe in enjoying the present moment, and will watch you squirm for a decade after which we will know what else is failing. I am sure you will enjoy reading everything here. Keep coming back. :D


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 07:51 
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KrishnaK wrote:
If that point is valid for judging the performance of Chinese aircraft, surely it must stand for judging Shukla's integrity or the lack thereof. He might just have access to information we lack.

You must be knowing that Stealth (as referred to 5th gen a/c) is more than mere external shapes. If you are wondering what is being referred here, it was reported Rafale which India planning to purchase performed 'exceptionally well' against F-22, only stealth fighter in service and publicized to be unmatched to existing fighters. So Stealth has several aspects than mere shapes and even F-22 is vulnerable to a lowly 4+ gen fighter like Rafale.

So if the J-31 just flew after taxi trials, how can anyone can tell, "but would certainly be outclassed by the stealthy J-31 whenever it enters service." Shukla used 'outclassed' and not 'outmatched'. Is it not just stupid at this stage to use that phrase..... It is up to your judgement.


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 07:58 
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Samay wrote:
Quote:
Unable to copy it, China tries building own jet engine
(Reuters) - China has designed nuclear missiles and blasted astronauts into space, but one vital technology remains out of reach. Despite decades of research and development, China has so far failed to build a reliable, high performance jet engine.

This may be about to change. China's aviation sector is striving for a breakthrough that would end its dependence on Russian and Western power plants for military and commercial aircraft.

Beijing is evaluating a 100 billion yuan plan to galvanize a disjointed and under-funded engine research effort, aviation industry officials say. :eek: The giant, state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China AVIC.L, China's dominant military and commercial aviation contractor, has been lobbying hard for the extra money, officials familiar with the details say.

AVIC, with more than 400,000 employees and 200 subsidiaries including 20 listed companies, has already set aside about 10 billion yuan of its own funds for jet engine development over the next three years.

The engine financing plan is under high-level discussion in Beijing, said Zhao Yuxing, an official at the securities office of Shanghai-listed Xi'an Aero-Engine Plc (600893.SS), a key military engine-making unit of AVIC. "What we know is our company has been included in the strategic programme, which is designed to greatly develop and support the engine industry," he said by phone from his company's headquarters in the northwestern city of Xi'an.

China's military industry as a whole has suffered from Tiananmen-era bans on the sale of military equipment from the United States and Europe. Moreover, foreign engine-makers have been loath to transfer technology. That has prevented China from taking its usual route to closing a technology gap: copying it.

Some Chinese aviation industry specialists forecast that Beijing will eventually spend up to 300 billion yuan on jet engine development over the next two decades.

"China's aircraft engines have obviously been under-invested," said Wang Tianyi, a defence sector analyst with Shanghai's Orient Securities. "One hundred billion yuan is not a huge amount of money in the engine world."

JEALOUSLY GUARDED SECRETS

While AVIC's long term priority is to develop high performance engines for military aircraft, it is also trying to design power plants for passenger aircraft in the world's fastest growing civil aviation market. Based on projected demand from Western aircraft manufacturers, engines for new passenger aircraft delivered in China could be worth more than $100 billion over the next 20 years.

"Historically, all major players in aerospace have possessed both airframe and engine design capabilities," said Carlo Kopp, the Melbourne, Australia-based founder of Air Power Australia, an independent military aviation think tank. "Until China can design and produce competitive engines, the performance and capabilities of Chinese aircraft designs will be seriously limited by what technology they are permitted to import."

....

That's an overkill
300 bn Yuan is a huge sum of money for engine tech only.
Given the fact that in case of china, its reported after it had already started (WS series was declared a no go much earlier,so that means re-engineering efforts must have started somwhere near 2009.) , they would have completed initial models by now.
This sum of money they are willing to invest will be nearly $50 bn by 2025, that's the half of the spending on arms we will be doing by then,given the pace .
It also means that they want to enter in export quality civilian/military aircraft market by 2025 or earlier and also that they dont want to rely on any supplier in war like situations..
These concerted efforts are in the area of quality improvement only..
Whatever we are ranting here about their quality and technological depth , such is going to change rapidly in the next decade, because the data speaks for itself. ?


Heard about infamous Chinese accounting practices ?


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 13:15 
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WZ-10 practices for Zhuhai Air Show


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 20:44 
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Well if there is one thing that the activity of this thread proves , it is that India is finally moving from being obsessed with Pakistan to being obsessed with China. Not an entirely bad thing.Its good that the country realises that Pakistan is just a rash which wont go away but if India dreams of great power status , China is the one that should be focused upon.Not the dhoti shivering kind of focus ofcourse :)


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PostPosted: 12 Nov 2012 21:12 
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... b10c48.221

Chinese sub-launched nuclear deterrent at hand-report

(AFP) – 2 days ago

WASHINGTON — For the first time China is close to reaching a "credible" nuclear deterrent based on land-based, submarine-launched and air-dropped nuclear weapons, a draft US report warned Friday.

The report by the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission said China's military, the People's Liberation Army, "continues to modernize and expand its nuclear stockpile."

"China is now on the cusp of attaining a credible nuclear triad of land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, submarine-launched ballistic missiles, and air-dropped nuclear bombs."

AFP obtained a draft of the annual report, scheduled to be delivered to the US Congress on Wednesday.

China has had "a symbolic ballistic missile submarine capability" for decades, based on a single aging submarine, but it is now close to having its first "credible, near-continuous at-sea strategic deterrent," the report said.

Two JIN-class submarines capable of launching missiles have already been deployed and three more are planned.

They will be equipped with JL-2 intercontinental ballistic missiles -- a program still in development that "may reach initial operating capability within the next two years," the report said, quoting the US Department of Defense.

China has been a nuclear power since 1964, and the country currently has between 50 and 75 land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles.

China also has some 20 long-distance aircraft able to deliver nuclear bombs, according to the Federation of American Scientists (FAS), also cited in the report.

The report cautioned that the Asian giant "has disclosed little information about the size, composition, and disposition of its nuclear forces, which yields uncertainties about the size and characteristics of its warhead inventory."

"Outside assessments from western observers, which generally range from about 100 to 500 warheads, but cluster around 240, rely heavily upon assumption," the report said.

Likewise, China's process of authorizing the use of a nuclear weapon also remains obscure.

"Questions remain about whether China has a 'two-man rule' or other provisions in place to ensure that, with emerging mobile platforms, launches can take place only with authorization," the report said.

Also worrisome to US officials is the relationship between China's civilians and their military.

"What worries me most are the disconnects that tend to occur between (China's) government and their military," said former US Joint Chiefs of Staff vice chairman James Cartwright in testimony to the commission.

The report pointed to China's 2007 anti-satellite demonstration, and the 2011 test flight of its J-20 fighter aircraft that took place as US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates was visiting China, "both of which may have caught China's civilian leadership off guar


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PostPosted: 13 Nov 2012 03:22 
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Not sure of the authenticity of this content here, but posting it for what it is worth:

http://tiananmenstremendousachievements ... sterpiece/

Quote:
1. [Report by huanqui.com reporter Li Zongze] According to speculation by Radio Voice of Russia’s website, China’s second type of fifth-generation fighter J-31 is a “pirated copy” of US F-35 fighter.

According to the report, it has been very clear since the appearance of the first batch of photos of J-31 where the designers of Shenyang Aircraft Corporation got their inspiration. The batch of photos on the first flight of J-31 displays the aircraft from various angles and shows that undoubtedly the type of aircraft is a copy of US F-35 fighter. It can be said that the fact that the Chinese fighter has been developed according to a prototype of F-35 is not a surprising piece of news. (Source of the photo: Mutha of top81.cn)

2. According to the report, in 2009, hackers from China broke into the net of a company taking part in developing F-35 fighter and then entered the website of the Pentagon and stole lots of information about that type of aircraft. That fact has been widely known. It was believed earlier that the information though substantial in amount is not enough for making a copy of F-35 fighter, still it enables quite a detailed understanding of its shape and capability and is enough for developing the methods to counter the fighter. (Source of the photo: Mutha of top81.cn)

3. The report quotes The Russian strategic analysis and technology center expert Vassily Kazi’s words that we cannot yet say that the Chinese have entirely copied F-35. In order to copy it, they have to master various technology for aircraft engine, and the electronic radar and operation system of the aircraft. The technological level in those and other aspects exceeds by far the technological capability of Chinese industry. Judging by the flight of J-31 prototype, the plane must be installed with the Russian RD-93 engine, which China uses in equipping its FC-1 fighters for export. (Source of the photo: Mutha of top81.cn)

4. If that is the case, the power plant of China’s newest type of fighter does not come from the equipment of the most excellent fourth-generation fighter that began to enter Russian air force in 1983. For years China has been developing its WS-13 Tianshan type of engine by reference to RD-93 engine. However, perhaps that project has not yet been completed. So far China does not seem to have mastered some important technology of the fifth-generation fighter such as active phased array radar. (Source of the photo: Mutha of top81.cn)

5. Therefore, both J-31 and J-20 that conducted its test flight one and a half years ago seem to be prototypes for technological display. It takes a long time to provide the parts and systems they need. It seems that at the very beginning, some of the parts and system have to be imported and then there will be gradual transition to domestic production of them. On the other hand, if J-20 as a whole can be regarded as the structure of a unique design, J-31 is entirely a copy of foreign aircraft whether in its appearance, major technical index or even other series of design schemes. (Source of the photo: Mutha of top81.cn)

6. Vassily Kazi believes: “Under the circumstances where designers obviously lack creativeness, J-31 will become a conspicuous mark of the final arrival of the era of computer spying.” In spite of the approximately 30 years since the emergence of computer spying, quite a few people still regard this type of spying as an abstract concept. Now, we have been able to tell those who regard computer spying as fantastic talks that this method to obtain technology has been quite mature.

This page consists of one photo of J-31 and one of F-35 to make a comparison between the two.

7. In addition, Vassily Kazi believes that for China, such act of copying foreign technology is not entirely desirable. It is unavoidable to rely for development on purchase or stealing of technology at a certain stage of development, but that approach shall not be regarded as a long-term strategy for success. The habit of drawing in technology will restrain a country’s potential of creation and hinder the progress of independent implementation of complicated projects. With its huge capability of technology spying, the Soviet Union also vigorously stole Western technology. However, when copying foreign prototypes become the major approach of development in a certain area, the Soviet Union always fell behind the West in that area of technology.

This page also consists of one photo of J-31 and one of F-35 to make a comparison between the two.

The photos can be seen at:

http://mil.huanqiu.com/mlitaryvision/20 ... 71523.html


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:17 
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Engine Tech, Cyber-Espionage Key To China’s Progress


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 10:28 
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Austin wrote:
Engine Tech, Cyber-Espionage Key To China’s Progress


Good for us that they are facing problem with engine development :D , and probably also with cutting edge avionics.
But then China is now trying to get SU 35 from Russia, how does it compare with SU 30 MKI.

Also we make noises about US providing arms to Pakistan, but if Russia provides Su 35 to China then it will have
serious impact on our security. Should we not raise the issue with Russia regarding arming of China with all these
cutting edge tech.
Any opinions ?


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 11:27 
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su35BM spec is much superior to su30 in a2a t:w regime atleast. its t:w is superior to any fighter barring the raptor. it features a bigger and more powerful engine and being 1-seater does not have 2nd pilot and cockpit weight penalty.
armed with the new crop of MRAAM and LRAAM Rus is developing, the Irbis-E and perhaps side looking X-band panels backported from the PAKFA, it should be fit enough to devastate almost anything out there...combined with the trademark massive combat radius of the flanker family.

it is in a sense the ultimate evolution of the noble Flanker bloodline...the last and greatest black stallion of the herd.

that being said, Rus might not be so keen to sell it right now, unless PAKFA production and tech stabilizes.


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 20:09 
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Singha wrote:
that being said, Rus might not be so keen to sell it right now, unless PAKFA production and tech stabilizes.


In the link (http://idrw.org/?p=15621#more-15621) it suggests that Russia is more interested in selling large numbers of Su 35 to China rather than a few which could be used for reverse engineering.
If that is the case then Russia is ready is in a way to arm China with a capability to neutralise Su 30 MKI and this will not be a good option for Indo-Russian relation.
Does India try to pursuade Russia to prevent such sales ? How much of India's request/concerns are taken into consideration by Russia while making decision on Arms sales ( Though Russia is sensitive for weapon sales to Pakistan but it does not seem to be the case with China).

How much concern should we be if China is in a position to deploy Su 35BM in the near future and what are our options. TIA


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 20:18 
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Quote:

Combining these two and knowing where India is in these two aspects, looks like India is not that far behind China in MIC development. Good going.


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PostPosted: 14 Nov 2012 21:08 
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ashi wrote:
Can't wait for another decade. :-)


I think this is the truth.

The J-20 was one of the stealth fighter programs under the codename J-XX that was launched in the late 1990s. Now we are in 2012. I am sure this plane will reach operational levels in another decade say 2022-2025.

So we are looking at a 30 year duration between conception and operationalization.

I hope Chinese will use chindigeneous engines in this flight when it goes into production.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 01:29 
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dhiraj wrote:
Singha wrote:
that being said, Rus might not be so keen to sell it right now, unless PAKFA production and tech stabilizes.


In the link (http://idrw.org/?p=15621#more-15621) it suggests that Russia is more interested in selling large numbers of Su 35 to China rather than a few which could be used for reverse engineering.
If that is the case then Russia is ready is in a way to arm China with a capability to neutralise Su 30 MKI and this will not be a good option for Indo-Russian relation.
Does India try to pursuade Russia to prevent such sales ? How much of India's request/concerns are taken into consideration by Russia while making decision on Arms sales ( Though Russia is sensitive for weapon sales to Pakistan but it does not seem to be the case with China).

How much concern should we be if China is in a position to deploy Su 35BM in the near future and what are our options. TIA


long long long time ago.. it was like Rus-China = brothers, Rus-India = friends

long long timme ago.. Rus-China = border fight >> suspicion >> china-US frnds, Rus-India = best friends

long time ago.. Rus-China = friends again, Rus gave a lot of weaponery, china started to create carbon copies, Rus-India = best friends, India got weaponery, started to license produce them

Some time ago Rus-China = friend +suspicion, china rich, Rus sold latest minus one technology to them, Rus-India = Time Tested Partners, latest plus one technology

Present Rus-China = future allies against USofA, re-negotiations are ON, Rus-India = friends+pressure tactics, gorki curse, lot of joint projects on stake

Future Rus-China = friends, with all out sharing, china copying again, but Rus not minding, Rus-India = frnds+suspicion, delayed joint projects, India-US = more and more timely delivered machines, Rus-Pakistan = direct sale of stuff like helicopters and troop carriers


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2012 01:51 
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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... =obnetwork
5 Things the Pentagon Isn't Telling Us About the Chinese Military
1. What are China's long-term defense spending plans?
2. What is China's nuclear strategy?
3.What is the Chinese navy up to?
4. What kind of space capabilities is China developing?
5. Paper tiger or fire-breathing dragon?

( Long article , all five points are discussed)


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 22:34 
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More WZ-10


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PostPosted: 16 Nov 2012 23:36 
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ashi wrote:
More WZ-10

Wow....thats awesome. There are 4 squadron or 48 machines in service already with production commencing.


Last edited by Don on 17 Nov 2012 20:13, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 11:12 
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J-10 show


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 16:22 
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ashi wrote:
J-10 show


Bah. What a bore. What's it with Chinese camerapersons? Are they incapable of showing one complete aircraft performance from beginning to end? Out of 4 minutes - there is only one square loop with rollover at the top shown fully. Everything else is like coitus interruptus. What is the point in showing takeoff in slow motion?


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 18:59 
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^^ It doesn't really matter what we think, if they have an aerobatics team based on the J10 platform then they must be very confident of it's ability and reliability. That is an achievement for any nation that is building its own fighters from scratch.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 19:08 
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But then, why wont they have confidence with Russian engines? without engines what they have is an unflyable airframe, so the confidence is driven by engines, which they can't make, so they can make N designs, without the confidence of the ability to make indigenous engines, and the airframes are copies of Russian or American planes, what is so inspiring?, what is from scratch?


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 19:56 
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shiv wrote:
ashi wrote:
J-10 show


Bah. What a bore. What's it with Chinese camerapersons? Are they incapable of showing one complete aircraft performance from beginning to end? Out of 4 minutes - there is only one square loop with rollover at the top shown fully. Everything else is like coitus interruptus. What is the point in showing takeoff in slow motion?

I agree boring....


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 20:01 
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Brando wrote:
^^ It doesn't really matter what we think, if they have an aerobatics team based on the J10 platform then they must be very confident of it's ability and reliability. That is an achievement for any nation that is building its own fighters from scratch.


Hmm yes. Like Romania and Yugoslavia in the 60s. Indigenous jet fighters used for aerobatics.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 20:10 
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ashi wrote:
More WZ-10

Z-10 High end and Z-19 will form low end. There are 3 squadron of Z19 in service or 36 machines with production continuing.

Image
Image


Last edited by Don on 17 Nov 2012 20:16, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 20:11 
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double post


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 20:16 
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shiv wrote:
Hmm yes. Like Romania and Yugoslavia in the 60s. Indigenous jet fighters used for aerobatics.


Yes, just like the Surya Kiran's with the HJT-16...........


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 20:50 
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Brando wrote:
shiv wrote:
Hmm yes. Like Romania and Yugoslavia in the 60s. Indigenous jet fighters used for aerobatics.


Yes, just like the Surya Kiran's with the HJT-16...........

My OT response in the appropriate thread for this
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6459&p=1365068#p1365068


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 21:31 
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Quote:
That is an achievement for any nation that is building its own fighters from scratch.


Since Chinese planes/helos are copies I will sleep well.

Relative to where they were it is an "achievement". Else it is a trap. Stagflation.

Unless of course they are able to steal more.


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 22:29 
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Helicopter gunships are impressive toys for counter insurgency (where you don't need air superiority) and ground combat against another military force (with the help of fighter jets giving you cover). So, as much gymnastics the chopper make but without air superiority from allied air force it is as good as sitting ducks from enemy fighter jets.
Avram


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PostPosted: 17 Nov 2012 23:35 
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shiv wrote:
ashi wrote:
J-10 show


Bah. What a bore. What's it with Chinese camerapersons? Are they incapable of showing one complete aircraft performance from beginning to end? Out of 4 minutes - there is only one square loop with rollover at the top shown fully. Everything else is like coitus interruptus. What is the point in showing takeoff in slow motion?


This video is better. At 0:39 four J10 turn on its axis simultanousely in formation. At 1:45 and at 2:00, there is also a difficult manoeuvre. One J10 loop around another flying straight.

Or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj5KzOGC_9Y


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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 02:45 
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Selamat Pagi wrote:
This video is better. At 0:39 four J10 turn on its axis simultanousely in formation. At 1:45 and at 2:00, there is also a difficult manoeuvre. One J10 loop around another flying straight.


Are you watching any planes flying for the first time?

Check this out - Chinese transport performing scary maneouvres : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fTO54Kt9tk


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 00:41 
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Z-10 High end and Z-19 will form low end. There are 3 squadron of Z19 in service or 36 machines with production continuing.

sorry...but they look like Dauphin SA-365 knock off's, especially the fenestron tail rotored ones. Dauphins are licence built in the PRC by Shenyang or Avic or one of them, so no need there for extended multi layered industrial theft.
Dauphins are great sturdy platforms though. ONGC uses them back and forth to the Bombay High fields.


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 03:59 
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There are about 18-21 in service with China currently plus ten more coming soon..

http://www.interfax.co.uk/russia-milita ... -to-china/

Quote:
Rosoboronexport to deliver ten Il-76 transports to China

ZHUHAI, China. Nov 19 (Interfax-AVN) - Russia will deliver ten Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft to China following overall repairs, said Sergei Kornev, a deparatment head with the Russian state arms trader Rosoboronexport.

"Under a contract signed with China we will deliver ten Il-76 aircraft from the stock available, and we have already selected seven of the ten," Kornev told reporters at Air Show China in Zhuhai, where he had arrived as leader of the Rosoboronexport delegation.

The contract deals with military transports already used and put through overall repairs, he said.

Asked whether China had been offered the upgraded IL-476 to be produced in Ulyanovsk, he sad, "it would be premature to speculate before the plane has gone through the entire testing program."

The plane has been deeply upgraded and got new engines, wing and avionics, he said.

"We will promote this plane as it has a good export potential," Kornev said.


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 07:52 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 10549
Location: Illini Nation
gnair wrote:
Z-10 High end and Z-19 will form low end. There are 3 squadron of Z19 in service or 36 machines with production continuing.

sorry...but they look like Dauphin SA-365 knock off's, especially the fenestron tail rotored ones. Dauphins are licence built in the PRC by Shenyang or Avic or one of them, so no need there for extended multi layered industrial theft.
Dauphins are great sturdy platforms though. ONGC uses them back and forth to the Bombay High fields.


Dauphin -> Z-9 -> Z-19.

Don wrote:
There are about 18-21 in service with China currently plus ten more coming soon..

http://www.interfax.co.uk/russia-milita ... -to-china/

Quote:
Rosoboronexport to deliver ten Il-76 transports to China

ZHUHAI, China. Nov 19 (Interfax-AVN) - Russia will deliver ten Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft to China following overall repairs, said Sergei Kornev, a deparatment head with the Russian state arms trader Rosoboronexport.

"Under a contract signed with China we will deliver ten Il-76 aircraft from the stock available, and we have already selected seven of the ten," Kornev told reporters at Air Show China in Zhuhai, where he had arrived as leader of the Rosoboronexport delegation.

The contract deals with military transports already used and put through overall repairs, he said.

Asked whether China had been offered the upgraded IL-476 to be produced in Ulyanovsk, he sad, "it would be premature to speculate before the plane has gone through the entire testing program."

The plane has been deeply upgraded and got new engines, wing and avionics, he said.

"We will promote this plane as it has a good export potential," Kornev said.


India has a few that could be refurbished.


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 20:23 
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BRFite

Joined: 09 Dec 2002 12:31
Posts: 412
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/ ... J820121116

Quote:
AIRSHOW-China pushes exports, flags ambitions at arms fair


* China displays model of second stealth jet in Zhuhai

* Anti-aircraft missile, endurance UAV debut at show

* Z-10 attack helicopter in first public flight display

By Tim Hepher

ZHUHAI, China, Nov 16 (Reuters) - China is flexing its muscles as an arms exporter with a growing array of indigenous weaponry, offering something for most budgets in the global arms bazaar and revealing its wider ambitions to strategic rivals and watchful neighbours.

As a new leadership was anointed in Beijing and the world looked on to see what direction it might take over the next decade, military officials from Africa to Southeast Asia were shopping for Chinese weapons in the country's south.

Change has come fast in China, now the world's second-largest economy, and with its rise has come a new sense of military assertiveness with a growing budget to develop modern warfare equipment including aircraft carriers and drones.

All the signs point to newly named Communist Party chief Xi Jinping, who is slated to become president next March, continuing China's aggressive military modernisation.

Now the world's fourth-largest arms exporter, China laid out its wares this week at an air show in Zhuhai, a palm-lined port between Macau and Hong Kong that becomes a heavily armed industry showcase every other November.

In the 10 years to 2011, China's foreign military sales have increased 95 percent, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).

Among dozens of items shown publicly for the first time this week were Chinese attack helicopters, missiles, unmanned aerial vehicles and air defences. As usual, the exhibit halls contained everything from shoulder-fired weapons to cruise missiles.

"China is getting more aggressive in the export market as its own industrial base develops," said Doug Barrie, senior fellow for Military Aerospace at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

"It looks at Russia and the U.S. as examples of how you can use the export arena to help develop your own industries."

Between them, Washington and Moscow account for more than half of the world's $410 billion in arms sales, but opportunities abound for China as the United States looks to cut its military spending to manage its mounting debt.

Still, U.S. spending dwarfs that of China. In its annual report on the Chinese military, the Pentagon in May estimated Beijing's total 2012 spending would be between $120 billion and $180 billion. Washington will spend $614 billion on its military this year.

Most of Beijing's trade is done with small states outside of the European Union, which like the United States, put China under an arms embargo after the crackdown on Tiananmen Square protests in 1989.

Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran and Myanmar are among China's biggest clients, with aircraft at the top of their shopping lists, SIPRI data shows.

Beijing does not release official figures for arms sales. Foreign estimates put the figure at about $2 billion in 2011.

STAR OF SHOW: STEALTH FIGHTER

The undisputed star of the show this week was a sleek, quarter-sized model of China's second stealth fighter, dubbed the J-31 by most Western analysts.

Although officially a concept plane, it bore what industry bible Aviation Week called a "striking resemblance" to a mystery jet that flew briefly at the end of October.

Photographs of the jet leaked, or orchestrated to look like a leak, and emerged on the Internet days before this week's Communist Party Congress and leadership handover, and confirmed China's place in a select club of stealth-capable nations.

"China has stood up," said John Pike, director of Virginia-based GlobalSecurity.org, an expert on industry strategy.

Only the United States has successfully produced more than one stealth jet and the challenges facing China's less experienced developers are undoubtedly immense.

The unveiling also served as a reminder to its neighbours of China's growing clout as tensions rise over rival claims for territory in the East China Sea and South China Sea.

"China is doing this as part of a political equation," said Robert Hewson, editor of IHS Jane's Air-Launched Weapons. "It has had a rapidly staged coming out but I am surprised to see it here so soon."

By mixing domestic and international messages, the model also filled a void left by the absence of top Chinese government officials distracted by the transition in Beijing.

BASIC BUT RELIABLE

The business end of the show is about present-day realities.

After relying heavily on Russian and to a lesser extent Israeli technology in the 1990s, China is pushing exports of home-grown equipment to expand its influence in areas like Africa where it is busy buying land and forging new allies.

"The Chinese used to simply produce cheap knockoffs of their basic Russian equipment. They have made very considerable advances, but still have problems, particularly with engines," said Simon Wezeman, senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

"On some technology, they are now competitive on technology with European arms exports and very competitive on price."

China has sold defence systems and co-developed a derivative of a Russian fighter with Pakistan and done smaller deals with African countries. There is also interest from Latin America.

Western analysts say China has a reputation for selling basic but reliable equipment with relatively few questions asked about its use, a key selling point.

But the range of products on display in Zhuhai is both increasing and gradually moving up in value, while remaining a decade or two behind the most advanced U.S. equipment.

COPYCAT APPROACH

For the first time at Zhuhai, China showed an export version of a long-range surface-to-air missile, the truck-mounted FD-2000, and a Predator-style UAV called the Wing Loong.

There was also a focus on systems that build relationships such as the L-15 trainer, which won its first export deal to an unidentified country at the show.

Admittedly, China's other reputation for copying what it cannot make is unlikely to disappear any time soon.

A parlour game among delegates is to tick off the similarities between Chinese systems and foreign platforms.

"When you come and see these aircraft you relate them to what you have seen before. The K-8 is a Hawk, the J-10 a Eurofighter, the L-15 an Aermacchi M-346," said an officer with an African air force delegation, asking not to be identified.

"That is why some people don't want to send their planes here. You come back in five years and it's called a J-something."

Organisers said a record 650 companies from 38 countries showed up to present exhibits at the ninth Zhuhai show.

A few yards and a Chinese wall separate the military part of the show and Western aerospace suppliers striking deals with China's fledgling civil aerospace industry.

This week's flying displays included a surprise debut of the Z-10 months after U.S. company United Technologies admitted selling software that helped Beijing develop its first modern military attack helicopter.

"China's aviation industry is turning out reasonably decent products," said Pike in a telephone interview. "They are not there yet and they have a long way to go. But they are open for business."


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 09:50 
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Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31
Posts: 10919
So its official J-31 is powered by Russian Engine

Russian Officials Reveal J-31 and Describe Engine Sales to China

Quote:
China’s recently flown second stealth fighter is powered by a pair of Russian-supplied Klimov RD-93 turbofans, AIN has learned. A large model of the design, which has been dubbed the J-31 in unofficial reports, was on display at Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, labeled as “an advanced multi-role fighter for the international defense market.” Russian officials at the show described the supply of military

Speculation that the new fighter uses Russian powerplants was confirmed by Vladimir Barkovsky, deputy general director of the Russian Aircraft Corp. “MIG” and head of its engineering center named after Artyem Mikoyan. Although he mentioned certain design flaws, Barkovsky gave a generally positive general assessment for the new Avic fighter design. “It looks like a good machine, and although it obviously has some design solutions already tried on the U.S. fifth-generation fighters, it is not a copy but a well done indigenous design,” he told AIN.

Barkovsky expressed regrets over the Russian MoD’s decision not to develop a next-generation lightweight fighter, saying that it may lead to Russia losing out in this distinct market segment. RAC MiG’s most recent MiG-29M2 and its exportable derivative the MiG-35D, belong to the 4++ generation, he explained. Barkovsky further said that the Chinese fighter manufacturers have achieved notable progress with durability and reparability of their products. They have also improved their after-sales support system, which was deplorable a few years ago, he added.

Sergei Kornev, head of the aviation department of Rosonboronexport, told journalists at Airshow China 2012 that, with help from Belarussian advisors and specialized companies, the Chinese fighter manufacturers have managed to create a workable system of after-sales support. For its part, he continued, Russia has sold to China the documentation on overhaul and lifecycle support of the AL-31F series engines and helped it establish a well functioning system for keeping them serviceable.

Kornev added that during the next meeting of the Sino-Russian interstate committee for military-technical cooperation, which opened on November 21, Moscow and Beijing are expected to sign a number of agreements relating to intellectual property rights. Kornev said that this should further ease the transfer of Russian knowledge and expertise in the sphere of combat aviation and its after-sales support.

Engines account for more than 90 percent of all Russian aerospace exports to China. “In the past two years, we have signed large contracts with China for several hundred additional engines of the AL-31F, AL-31FN and D-30KP2 types. Shipments are now ongoing,” Kornev said. The D-30KP2 powers the Ilyushin Il-76 transport, while the AL-31 family powers the Su-27/30/34 series of combat aircraft, and the Chinese J-11 derivative. In addition, Russia has delivered improved performance AL-31FN Series 3 and later turbofans for China’s indigenous J-10 fighter.

Asked whether Russia has assisted China in its development of the WS-10A Tai Hang engine that is broadly similar to the AL-31F, Kornev answered that Russian specialists have not been briefed on this design and that Russia has never delivered AL-31F design documentation to China. Regarding the RD-93, which China mainly uses to power the JF-17 (FC-1) fighter, Kornev said that Russia has completed deliveries of 100 of the engine under a framework agreement for 500. Negotiations on the next batch are ongoing. “All juridical formalities regarding new sales are agreed upon; our negotiations are purely about commercial aspects, including price,” he insisted.


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 23:52 
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BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2009 13:30
Posts: 417
The eagle has landed.

Image


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