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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 18:26 
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Brahmos-2 is expected to be a re-usable missile exhibiting features similar to CVS401 Perseus concept from MBDA.

saje wrote:
Is there a possibility of using a hypersonic vehicle as a booster to deliver a missile into it's target attack envelope, from where the missile can then engage it's intended target?


You are talking about theater wide SAM system with hypersonic booster. Of course possible. Aster family do have such concept. But in case of SAM, response time is critical. And then there is economics and many other factors to be considered.

But before that, fighter Sqdns deployed with AWACS can take control of such threat.


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 18:27 
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hypersonic != cheap

they will be Nx more costly than a brahmos for sure given the exotic materials and project cost involved.

might be reserved for high value roles.


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PostPosted: 19 Nov 2012 18:39 
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ravi_g wrote:
http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=352789

A dated article. Sorry about that, except that I wanted to bring forth this thing mentioned in the article:

Quote:
Natarajan said defence scientist were also working on the profile to develop 1,000 KM range surface-to-surface supersonic cruise missile by enhancing capabilities of already deployed Indo-Russian Brahmos Missile.


All else mentioned in that article is already done or progressing well. So this supersonic cruise missile could only refer to Nirbhay. Perhaps in the endgame it goes supersonic (speculating off course). Anyways what for me is more important is a different speculation.That the Nirbhay is almost already tested in terms of its more crucial aspects, Guidance. Lately there was something about 500 km Brahmos. So the whole thing seems like an organic growth with our Sainsdaan working mainly to absorb the Guidance systems and having made progress to that extent.

That also carries implications for where the thanks is due.

Could that explain the khujli for Canisterized Testing.


Sirji, in today's world any motivated industrial country can make rudimentary Cruise missile provided it do have access to some moderate mini turbo engine. But what differentiates between an ordinary Cruise missile and world class state of the art one is the Guidance and additionally its sensor.

One can understand the importance of Guidance as we go through the failures of Cruise missiles.

So do ask what differentiates and what made Brahmos world class missile from Yakhont misile. The answer, of all other things, is Guidance.


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 08:21 
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The Hindu has a article today mentioning that the K-15 is ready for induction and has already been placed into production after its last successful test off Vizag.
The K-4 will undergo pontoon trials later this year/early next year.

Anyone able to locate the article in online edition?


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 09:18 
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Here is the article:

India to integrate K-15 missiles into nuclear submarine soon


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 10:42 
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I am posting the above article in full, courtesy The Hindu.

Quote:
India will shortly induct K-15 missiles armed with nuclear warheads into INS Arihant, the indigenously built nuclear-powered submarine.

This follows several successful launches of K-15 missiles from a pontoon off the Visakhapatnam coast. Informed Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources told The Hindu that all the trials of K-15 which has a strike range of 700 km have been completed and its production had already begun.

Sources said India was the fifth country to have this kind of technology, where a missile carrying a nuclear warhead could be launched from under the water. The other four countries are the United States, Russia, France and China. “This technology is complex because the missile is launched from under the water and it is launched from a manned platform [submarine]. So, safety of the personnel on board is of paramount importance. Safety and reliability of the systems should be very high,” the sources added.

Arihant will carry 12 K-15 missiles. Besides Arihant, which has been built at the Visakhapatnam Naval Dock Yard, India is building two more nuclear-powered submarines for commissioning into the Navy and their hulls are being fabricated at Vadodara.

After its launch from under water, the 10-metre tall K-15 will rise to an altitude of 20 km and cover a distance of 700 km. A gas generator will push K-15 from out of water. Arihant’s reactor will be commissioned by the end of this year, informed sources said.

Arihant is powered by an 80 MWt (thermal) nuclear power reactor which uses enriched uranium as fuel and light water as both coolant and moderator. The enriched uranium has been fabricated at Rare Materials Plant at Ratnahalli, near Mysore.

The nuclear power reactor which will propel Arihant is similar to the Light Water Reactor commissioned at Kalpakkam. The Kalpakkam reactor also has capacity of 80 MWt and is being used to train the Naval personnel who will be manning Arihant and the other nuclear-powered submarines under construction.

The DRDO is developing another submarine-launched missile, K-4 which will have a range of 3,000 km. The first flight trial of K-4 will be conducted soon from a submerged pontoon off Visakhapatnam. {AoA}

Once the n-powered submarines carrying the K-series get inducted, the triad of India’s nuclear deterrence capability will be completed. While the Agni series forms the mainstay of the land leg, fighter aircraft Sukhoi-30 and Mirage-2000 will deliver warheads for the air version.



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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 12:42 
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I hope that that K4 has a range of 3000 kms. for a 3 ton payload :-)


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 12:58 
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Quote:
This follows several successful launches of K-15 missiles from a pontoon off the Visakhapatnam coast. Informed Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources told The Hindu that all the trials of K-15 which has a strike range of 700 km have been completed and its production had already begun.

Few trial launches needs to be carried out from actual submerged platform..


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 13:32 
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What does 80MWT transalte to in MWE? 16?


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 14:05 
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^^33 MWe Approx


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 23:42 
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^^Wouldn't that depend on the efficiency of the reactor?


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 00:43 
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nachiket wrote:
^^Wouldn't that depend on the efficiency of the reactor?


It would depend more on the efficiency of the turbine
K


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 00:50 
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did they say, everything is ready to go on the reactor ?


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 01:22 
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Kersi D wrote:
nachiket wrote:
^^Wouldn't that depend on the efficiency of the reactor?


It would depend more on the efficiency of the turbine
K


true if its steam turbine direct propulsion.

Quote:
The main difference between conventional submarines and nuclear submarines is the power generation system. Nuclear submarines employ nuclear reactors for this task. They either generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft or rely on the reactor heat to produce steam that drives steam turbines (cf. nuclear marine propulsion). Reactors used in submarines typically use highly enriched fuel (often greater than 20%) to enable them to deliver a large amount of power from a smaller reactor and operate longer between refuelings – which are difficult due to the reactor's position within the submarine's pressure hull.



Image


Image


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 13:02 
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If a pumpjet propulsion is used would a nuclear reactor have more efficiency ?


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 13:05 
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pentaiah wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
It would depend more on the efficiency of the turbine
K


true if its steam turbine direct propulsion.

Quote:
The main difference..... ............. Nuclear submarines employ nuclear reactors for this task. They either generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft or rely on the reactor heat to produce steam that drives steam turbines (cf. nuclear marine propulsion). Reactors used in submarines typically use highly enriched fuel (often greater than 20%) to enable them to deliver a large amount of power from a smaller reactor and operate longer between refuelings – which are difficult due to the reactor's position within the submarine's pressure hull.


There is no way a nuclear reactor can directly "generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft". Essentially a nuclear reactor generates heat which in turn generates steam. This steam can be used to drive a propellor / shaft in a ship or a turbo generator to generate power either on land or at sea.

K


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 13:23 
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a pumpjet propulsor might need more power. someone has got to force this water into the funnel


It funnels water through a lampshade causing an increase in pressure at the locations where the blades slices through the fluid media. This increase in pressure delays the onset of cavitation. Cavitation happens when vaccuum "bubbles" form at the trailing edges of the blades when they travel through the liquid faster than the water can rush back in to fill the void they leave as they pass. As pressures increase, the propeller at which the onset of cavitation occurs also increases. This is why subs are "silent" up to a higher speeds as they dive deeper.

The lamp shade also shields the sound made by the propeller in most of the lateral directions. This makes the sub quieter laterally but may increase their sound signature longtidually -- especially dead astern.

The Ohios are very quiet with or without a pumpjet propulsor. They are quiet enough that the soviets are said to have never tracked one after it dives in deep water. One of the features of the submarine is that at slow speeds (low reactor output) the coolants are circulated through the core through natural convection without any pumps being used. The Ohios spent most their time at very slow speeds while on patrol. At 3~5 knots, it is doubtful if a pumpjet makes a difference.


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 21:22 
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Singha wrote:
a pumpjet propulsor might need more power. someone has got to force this water into the funnel


It funnels water through a lampshade causing an increase in pressure at the locations where the blades slices through the fluid media. This increase in pressure delays the onset of cavitation. Cavitation happens when vaccuum "bubbles" form at the trailing edges of the blades when they travel through the liquid faster than the water can rush back in to fill the void they leave as they pass. As pressures increase, the propeller at which the onset of cavitation occurs also increases. This is why subs are "silent" up to a higher speeds as they dive deeper.

The lamp shade also shields the sound made by the propeller in most of the lateral directions. This makes the sub quieter laterally but may increase their sound signature longtidually -- especially dead astern.

The Ohios are very quiet with or without a pumpjet propulsor. They are quiet enough that the soviets are said to have never tracked one after it dives in deep water. One of the features of the submarine is that at slow speeds (low reactor output) the coolants are circulated through the core through natural convection without any pumps being used. The Ohios spent most their time at very slow speeds while on patrol. At 3~5 knots, it is doubtful if a pumpjet makes a difference.


Is it very difficult to get a thermal signature of the sub in such a case (discharging warm/hot water, used as coolant, into the sea)?


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 21:37 
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the coolant in any reactor will be a sealed system I think because the water is flowing over the rods and is radioactive. the steam will pass in sealed pipes through another vessel where non-radioactive water outside is heated to steam and this 2nd stage steam drives the turbine , gets cooled somewhere and fed back again.

I am sure they arrange for cooling any hot water discharge to ambient sea temp. there are even strict procedures about disposing off kitchen waste per my reading...they are not allowed to float up and leave a trail.

cost is not an issue - ohio subs have a gym for employees with all eqpt like treadmill isolated from floor on hydraulic jacks.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 01:20 
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the higher the efficiency of heat exchanger, the better is the power generation. sodium cooled fast reactors could have direct contact from liquid metal to water is an advanced choice, perhaps.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 02:01 
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As discussed above there will be an interphase liquid which will cool the reactor coolant.
This interphase liquid, usually treated fresh water will then be cooled with sea water. The copious amounts of sea water that are used to cool the intermediate coolant, ensure that the difference in seawater temperature, in and out,of the heat exchanger is 2-5 deg c, if this is discharged 20-30 meters below sea surface it will be very difficult to detect by airborne sensors. Especially in the tropics where there is a large difference in temp between the surface and 20 mtrs below it. There is a possibility of the steam condensate cooling system and this system being linked making it quite a complicated system.

Sorry for being OT this shoud not have been in the missile thread.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 03:08 
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Eric Leiderman wrote:
... The copious amounts of sea water that are used to cool the intermediate coolant, ensure that the difference in seawater temperature, in and out,of the heat exchanger is 2-5 deg c, if this is discharged 20-30 meters below sea surface it will be very difficult to detect by airborne sensors.


Thanks Eric and others. I should have clarified in my post - I was talking about the last stage coolant. Your explanation helps. Sorry for the OT question!


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 12:39 
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Real-time Trial of Interceptor and Simulated Missiles on Nov. 23 - T.S.Subramanian in The Hindu
Quote:
The interceptor missile launch scheduled for November 23 from the Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast will be a novel mission. It will feature an electronically simulated attacker missile coming from a distance of 2,000 km and also a real missile launched from Chandipur in Odisha.

While no interceptor will be fired against the imaginary attacker everything will be simulated up to T minus zero second as if commands were given to bring it down. A real interceptor will take off from the Wheeler Island to bring down the actual missile launched from Chandipur. This interceptor will pounce on the real attacker at a height of 15 km to 16 km in what is called the endo-atomosphere. “This is the first time we will be testing a scenario in real time where everything will be done as if we are launching a missile against an electronic target missile and launch in parallel an actual missile against a real target missile,” said Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The simulated and the real scenarios would be running in parallel. Since no distance of 2,000 km was available in the country from where a real missile, simulating the trajectory of an enemy missile, could be launched, it would be a simulated missile, he added. Two radars will process the simulated and real missiles and assign the launchers to take care of them.

“The Mission Control Centre will process the two missiles and identify in real time which launcher is best suited to fire its missile against which target. Since one of the two attackers is an imaginary [electronically simulated] missile, we will not be firing a missile against that. But we will be going to the point of firing up to T-0,” Mr. Chander said.

The missile trial on November 23 aimed at “a deployable configuration” to intercept multiple adversarial missiles raining down on India. “We are not able to launch live targets simultaneously because of the limitations of range and geometry. That is, since distances are not available, we are not able to fire two target missiles simultaneously,” he explained.

Mr. Chander said: “In a real scenario, multiple ballistic missiles may be coming towards India which need to be handled. Our radars can track more than 200 missiles simultaneously. When multiple launchers are deployed, they can handle multiple missiles fired at us. We should be able to track them, process the signals, identify which is a threat and assign the specific launcher-missile that is best suited to intercept them. So far all our interceptor flight-trials have been one missile against one target … So the forthcoming interceptor mission would give the DRDO team a lot of confidence to simultaneously handle multiple targets.” The DRDO was trying to get a floating test range [ship], and radars and launchers would be based on that vessel, he said.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 19:40 
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The future planned simultaneous Endo/Exo test (was scheduled for Dec 2011) would cause browning material to appear in the Endo-Exo zone of a lot of pants in Shitistan.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 23:01 
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Quote:
“We are not able to launch live targets simultaneously because of the limitations of range and geometry. That is, since distances are not available, we are not able to fire two target missiles simultaneously,” he explained.
Could we not place interceptor batteries in A&N and launch targets from the mainland?


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 03:07 
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Should the DRDO be able to integrate this BMD system Endo/Exo interceptors and the Barak - 8 SAM with the required radars on a destroyer, it would offer the IN a formidable theater Air defense capability ala Aegis that could be part of a future IN CVBG/CSG. However, it is hard to say how good this BMD system would be against a hypersonic maneuvering kill vehicles like the DF-21's warhead at this stage.


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 07:47 
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Iron Dome for Desh?

Interesting it is seen as a counter for Nasr as well


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 07:48 
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Akash should be enough for Nasr. what they need it good early detection capability


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 07:56 
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^^^

Akash is better utilized for maneuvering targets, and Nasr is a short range ballistic rocket


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 09:21 
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vasu raya wrote:
Iron Dome for Desh?

Interesting it is seen as a counter for Nasr as well

Looks more like a advertisement. The LeT launching home made rockets at us should hardly be a worry when we have the conventional Pakistani army launching proper artillery projectiles even during a so called "ceasefire".


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 09:42 
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Eagerly waiting for today's BMD test results.:)


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 12:43 
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if it has hasn't happenned till now, it will probably not happen today


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 13:14 
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News Flash: India test fires supersonic interceptor missile


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 13:40 
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India successfully test fires supersonic interceptor missile: India today successfully test-fired an indigenously developed supersonic interceptor missile, capable of destroying a hostile ballistic missile, from a test range off the Odisha coast.

"At around 12.52 hours, the interceptor hit the target missile successfully at an altitude of about 15 kilometres," DRDO spokesman Ravi Kumar Gupta said.

India is working towards development of a multi-layer Ballistic Missile Defence system. The test was conducted to validate various parameters of the interceptor in flight mode, said a defence source.


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 13:45 
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:D :D :D

WHERE IS MY LUNGI..


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 13:56 
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Quote:
India on Friday test-fired a ballistic missile interceptor from a defence base in Odisha. The indigenous Advanced Air Defence (AAD) endo-atmospheric interceptor missile was fired from Wheeler Island off the coast near Dhamra in Bhadrak district and killed an incoming ballistic missile that was launched from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea in Balasore.

It is a developmental trial, a defence scientist involved in the exercise had said earlier. India is developing the interceptors which have been successfully tested several times in the past, to provide air-shield to important Indian cities against hostile attacks.Senior defence scientists, including VK Saraswat, the chief of Defence Research and Development Organisation and the scientific advisor to Defence Minister AK Antony, oversaw the launch.
During the exercise, a modified surface-to-surface Prithvi missile acted as a hostile target and lifted off from ITR at Chandipur-on-sea, about 230 km from here.


Link :D :D


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 14:17 
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The Ghauri's and Ghajnavi's will be intercepted by Prithvi ( Raj Chauhan) yet again. History repeats itself.


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 14:20 
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I am awaiting the first test of the big sticks AD1 and AD2 - capable of taking on DF21x class missiles.
probably swing role ASAT weapons against LEO & MEO sats as well :twisted:

it is time...


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 14:43 
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Interceptor missile scores a direct again

Signalling India’s readiness to deploy the home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system in the near future, an advanced interceptor missile destroyed an incoming target missile in a direct hit at an altitude of 15 km over the Bay of Bengal on Friday.

In Friday’s mission, missile technologists from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for the first time tested the configuration for destroying an incoming actual missile and another electronically simulated missile.

According to top DRDO sources, the electronically simulated target which mimicked a missile coming from a distance of 1500 km, was electronically hit at an altitude of 120 km.

Within minutes of the launch of the real attacker missile, a modified surface-to-surface Prithvi from Chandipur, the actual interceptor , Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile took off from Wheeler Island and destroyed the ‘hostile’ missile at an altitude of 15 km in the endo-atmosphere at 12.52 p.m.

As soon as target missile was launched, the Long-Range Tracking Radars and the Multi-Functional Radars tracked it and passed on the data to the guidance computer to launch the AAD, which homed on to the target missile and pulverised it.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Avinash Chander, Associate Director, Research Centre Imarat, Sateesh Reddy and Programme Director, (AD Mission) Adalat Ali were present.

Celebrations broke out at Wheeler Island following the success of the mission, which was the eighth ballistic interceptor missile test. So far seven missions have been successful and one of them, the first one was conducted in exo-atmopshere at an altitude of 48 km in November 2006.


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 16:04 
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Quote:
was electronically hit at an altitude of 120 km


Before the first actual BMD test (exo-atm) was carried out in 2006, interception was done electronically as done today.



Quote:
Asked what improvements were made in this interceptor mission, Dr. Saraswat said the modified Prithvi missile would have a higher velocity.

“We have improved the accuracy of the interception in the endo-atmosphere… The interceptor will be launched in a hit-to-kill mode,” he added.


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