Bharat Rakshak

Have to quote myself here, are there really no infos about it?

French Dassault opens Indian subsidiary for Rafale deal.

After bagging the multi-billion dollar contract for supplying 126 Rafale fighter aircraft to IAF, French Dassault Systems has opened an Indian subsidiary company here.

The company named Dassault Aircraft Services India Private Limited (DASIPL) was set up recently and it is 100 per cent owned by its French parent company, officials said here.The new company is headed by a French national Richard Lavaud, who has worked in India earlier with defence firms and will work towards finalising the deal with India, they said.

Earlier this year, Dassault Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in the IAF tender for supplying 126 combat aircraft edging out its European rival Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in terms of prices.The contract has been offered to Dassault and it is negotiating the terms and conditions and the final price of the aircraft with the Indian Defence Ministry officials.

Dassault has also entered into an agreement with Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) for partnering in defence and homeland security sectors in the country.
There was a possibility of the two companies working together in the combat aircraft deal here.

After finalising the deal, Dassault will have to reinvest 50 per cent of the contract’s worth back into the Indian defence sector.Mukesh Ambani-headed RIL has made several efforts in the past to position itself in the defence, internal security and aerospace solutions sectors

all ambiguity will be taken as advantage points by the seller. i am sure the french will!

Hi ... For those who missed the first episode of my Bigger, Higher, Faster documentary on the Rafale .. there is a repeat tonight at 10 pm. Ep 2 is scheduled for Saturday 8th - 7:30 pm and Sunday 9th - 8:30 am and 10 pm.

You can also see Ep 1 which aired yesterday for the first time here:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/bigger ... ale/256732

Again ... its just nice video .. There is no information here which has not been discussed on BR but its still nice to hear the Rafale Chief Test pilot speak ... Based on the soundbyte carried here - I am not sure if the RBE-2 AESA can do a simultaneous track of air and ground targets at the moment - but that may be something in the works.

Cheers
Vishnu

Hi Vishnu,

Since u have flown on most of the fighter which were part of the MMRCA, could u please let us know after having flown the Rafale ,
what was the most of standout feature of Rafale that could have impressed the IAF and what was the thing that u may not have
liked in Rafale and was better in some of the other fighter


General query : how much has the 9.5 tonne load carrying capacity of Rafale considered during decision making. Is any fighter every loaded to its full capacity during an attack mission or part of it will always be used for external fuel tanks for long range mission. In that case how safe such missions be against countries with good air defence

TIA

Just saw the first episode of Rafale done by Vishnu. It's so well done. Now, waiting for the second one.

Correction - Repeat of Episode 1 at 11 pm tonight. Tx

get confused which variant are we getting? model# etc..? especially, the ToT on engine to what levels.

definitely nothing beats typhoon ratios here.

^^^

Dassault has not finalised the F4 standards. But there have been new developments, such as AESA, post F3 standards. So the IAF version would be F3+ at the minimum with some customizations and indigenous content. At this point I doubt the IAF would go for higher thrust engine since that would mean additional funding for R&D and risks, such as delays, associated with it. F3 standard with AESA is already a fully multi-role aircraft with a wide variety of munitions integrated and is already operational. Current thrust seems adequate for majority of tasks except for some "super" flight regimes.

Dassault 'optimistic' on Rafale talks with India

PARIS | Wed Dec 5, 2012 2:01am IST

(Reuters) - Talks between French plane-maker Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) and India over a $15 billion Rafale fighter contract are continuing, Dassault's chief executive said, adding he was "relatively optimistic".

India selected the Rafale to enter exclusive negotiations for a potential 126-plane order in late January, beating the competing Eurofighter Typhoon (EAD.PA) (SIFI.MI) (BAES.L) and lifting hopes for a sale that would boost French pride and restore the luster of its aviation industry.

"We are deep in talks at the moment. It's a complicated country , the negotiations are tough, but there is a desire to wrap up on both sides," CEO Charles Edelstenne told a parliamentary hearing on Tuesday.

"I'm relatively optimistic."

Edelstenne also said that growing public speculation over a change at the top for subsidiary Thales (TCFP.PA) - which he described as an "eventual change in governance" - was having an impact on talks with clients and making them more difficult.

(Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer; Editing by Tim Dobbyn)

Given the CAG report regarding offsets, I'm really not that optimistic about technology absorption.

Dassault 'optimistic' on Rafale talks with India


Talks between French plane-maker Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) and India over a $15 billion Rafale fighter contract are continuing, Dassault's chief executive said, adding he was "relatively optimistic".

India selected the Rafale to enter exclusive negotiations for a potential 126-plane order in late January, beating the competing Eurofighter Typhoon (EAD.PA) (SIFI.MI) (BAES.L) and lifting hopes for a sale that would boost French pride and restore the luster of its aviation industry.

"We are deep in talks at the moment. It's a complicated country, the negotiations are tough, but there is a desire to wrap up on both sides," CEO Charles Edelstenne told a parliamentary hearing on Tuesday.

"I'm relatively optimistic."

Edelstenne also said that growing public speculation over a change at the top for subsidiary Thales (TCFP.PA) - which he described as an "eventual change in governance" - was having an impact on talks with clients and making them more difficult.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/12/0 ... BU20121204

Part two of my documentary on flying the Rafale. Enjoy ... Vishnu

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/bigger ... ale/257581

Vishnu has done a very good job with the Rafale series. I recorded both the episodes on my TataSky set top box and watched it this morning (no way I could have watched them live with the two brats at home) in peace and quiet.

The Rafale is one heck of an impressive aircraft and the IAF have made a great choice. It's much further along in it's development as a multirole fighter than the Typhoon and its strike capabilities seem superb.
Just loved that terrain following flying over the mountains and sea , in a hard turn , just 100 ft above the surface. I think in the strike role it will be un paralleled, not that it will be a slouch in the A2A role. The pilot talking about he AESA radar's capabilities of having multiple beams, one for ground, others scanning the skies above for A2A kind of thing will be simply outstanding.. Not like a Jaguar whose only protection against an A2A threat will be passive like Chaff/Flare, a Rafale, on a terrain following strike mode can still launch a radar guided mica at a BVR a2A threat, while still going ahead with launching the A2G ordnance.

the darin3 jaguars with derby and el2032 radar will do that too - albeit radar aperture is smaller and jags are not as nimble and fast as rafales..and they lack the OSF and 100ft TFR.

I am expecting a good number of opportunistic a2a kills by darin3 jags in the next scrap, esp on helicopters, unwary fighters, transports and uavs they find in the course of a business day. it just radiates a far higher threat to have dozens of jags wandering around with a good radar and bvr missiles.

^^^

why not the 100ft TFR for Jaguars? and what about the Tejas which has the same radar and perhaps is more responsive?

Rafale has been the best news for IAF in recent year icing in the cake would be having 3-4 Nirbhay missile fitted to a Rafale (seems feasible since the Storm Shadow is carried by Rafale) taking care of most of the stand off strike requirement

The jaguar nose is smaller than tejas..its not a cone but more like a cuboid. The antenna diameter and hence the range of the same radar is likely to be smaller than tejas.

so, what is the TRN in LCA then?

With Darin 3, it is cone

The radar cone on Jaguar IM "looks" quite big, bigger than of a MiG 21.

Manufacturing Details Stall Franco-Indian MMCRA Negotiations

http://idrw.org/?p=16604#more-16604

hmm....is the teaming up of Reliance with Dassault complicating the matters ?
Signing of contract will probably get tougher as 2013 progresses because of 2014 elections
and Dassault should take note of it after all this is there only and biggest export order available to them.

French have a point
- it is a french product
- they have to offer some offsets
- HAL has no inputs to offer on the rafale
- IAF is the user
- we the taxpayer are paying for it

so should HAL by default get to make everything we buy? they for sure will not make anything cheaper than a competing player, and likely will delay more and cost more.

let them prove it with a good Tejas production line, to impart confidence in making the AMCA serially.

agree Singhaji.

But our babus will want everything for a PSU.

I would think the tender is not clear on this aspect:

a) That all ToT to HAL
b) The 50% offsets are separate from this ToT

Rather tricky situation.

However, it is time that the Babus and HAL recognise that HAL is overloaded and like they are farming out LRUs and the new radome, for the Tejas, to private players, certain critical items can remain in the purview of HAL, and the rest with pvt. players. This would be a good boost for our manufacturing capabilities, across a broader more efficient manufacturing base.

in telecom sector there is some rule that whenever BSNL orders some gear, ITI gets to manufacture the local part or ITI (and its foreign jamais like alcalu or nokia-siemens) is guaranteed some % of the order.
that way the telecom biggies who are in bed with ITI always get some guaranteed deals.

The only point of French is how much they can dry us out while giving little or no technology, they are no holy cows who have goodwill for us in there hearts.



LCA has no bearing on the MMRCA and vice versa both are different projects and which competing player are you talking about who can compete with HAL ???

but the MMRCA was supposed to give us technology on how to manufacture to finer tolerances and getting ready for the AMCA.

if Dassault can make someone do the rafale in india to spec and to cost, why not let them try?

if it fails, HAL is always there. let dassault make a call on who can do what rather than imposing HAL 100% on them ?

That's right sir "supposed" no one knows how much technology is going to be transferred and be sure whatever will be transferred will be B grade technology no country how much you pay will ever part away with it's A grade stuff.



Who the hell is Dassault to decide what is good for us?? Why shall we let them lecture us what we have to do or not ?? Dassault should be clearly made to do things as we wish and not what they want because what they want is not in sync with what we aspire to get from this project.



Again sir we are the customer and only we will decide what is good for us don't trust Dassault on it or they will take you for a ride and wouldn't going in for an alternative which has a high probability to fail or delay and then coming back to HAL will further delay our acquisition plan ???

Thinking of which I think Dassault wants the same as it will be profitable to them in long term than to us. The project will be delayed, costs will rise, more arm twisting, tech denial, destabilising Indian mil-ind complex are some of the consequences we will have to face if we allow Dassault to take the drivers seat.

Vina Sir, Jaguar carries 2 AAMs on overwing pylons

K

Relaince will get the talent they knew zilch about petro chemicals, they were a downstream user of a petrochemical product 20 years later look where they are. Ditto with hospitals, I can go on.

But Sir if A grade tech is not what we will be getting then the basic premise of MMRCA deal with the aim to enhance India's aviation technology stands in serious doubt

Further my understanding is that for any Indian company (apart from HAL [thats our only option currently ]) who wants to be interested in Rafale manufacture should be allowed to do so only if they have some prior experience in this domain. Like in case of shipbuilding where we now hear DCNS acquiring stake in Pipavav defence. In this way the Indian company will be in a better position to quickly absorb and retain tech and later on further innovate on these tech thus enhance Indian aviation tech on the whole

Having a newcomer getting a large portion of the manufacturing will ensure that Dassault have more control on the kind of tech being transferred and probably this could be one of the reason for their insistence on deciding who gets what to manufacture

That's the reality no one parts away with the knowledge of their cutting edge stuff. "A" grade technology is what you make yourself even if it is bettered by someone else but you don't know how he did it but you can keep playing with your technology till the day you are the one who is making A grade tech and others are salivating for it. The sooner this realization comes in IA and IAF the better it will be for them and India. IN in this regard is light years ahead from the other two services.



Exactly, who has prior experience in this domain other than HAL ??? Pvt. companies can start today and a decade or two later they might be in a situation where they can play a big role in aerospace sector till then HAL is the king.



See Dasault wants to give you this _|_ and wants in exchange $$$$ so stop thinking about what Dassault wants and start thinking about what we want and how we can get that according to the way we want and not by dancing on Dassault tunes.

How will other companies ever develop if they are never given a chance?

If you want to be in this same position 50 years from now, moaning about how slow and incompetent HAL is, by all means continue handing them everything whether they deserve it or not.



I see it as Dassault is interested in working with a company that is actually motivated and interested in working with them, a true partner.

This could be the best thing to ever happen to the Indian aviation industry.

This is a tremendous opportunity to develop some true competition and shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of HAL.

^^^
Agreed George.

Whilst we complain about HAL, and some of the points are also valid. The recent criticism about the LCA manufacturing, and also if I remember correctly, HAL delayed in submitting the plans for the Rafale production.

But when it comes to change, then we are scared, even to test the waters.

I would go about it this way:
a) The ToT, regardless of who make the different components is also the property of GoI which has the inexclusive rights to produce it.
(I wouldn't debate here, what Class A or class B any manufacturer ToT would supply us or how we would feel like stuck pigs, paying atrocious sums of money etc., because it detracts from the goal of uprating our airwar capabilities which is of pressing need.)

b) With the caveat that HAL would also be involved with whatever company manufactures these components, as an offset, on the shop floor, so it is a seamless operation, where HAL can look at these companies as an extension of its manufacturing umbrella.

This way, it maybe seen as a half step by some, but neverthless, a positive step forward, to kick start this project without any further delay.

And may actually result in a viable, public-private partnership and assist HAL in imbibing manufacturing concepts and management practises which it seems to have isolated itself from, compared to its heydays in the 80/90's.

Agreed.



I wouldn't give HAL anything. If Reliant or whoever feels HAL is the best choice for something, fine, but let HAL compete for it.

If they want their finger in the pie, let them EARN it.

I am all for developing a competitor of HAL but why shall I get dictated on how to do it by a foreign company ??? They are not interested in developing an aerospace industry here which in future can very much compete with themselves.



For the time being HAL has no competitor in Indian market so we like it or not they have to handed over things. A start can be made but it will take decades before a proper competitor of HAL comes online. Even in that process HAL has to play the role of a big brother.



I see this as an attempt by Dassault to stall the Indian aerospace sector rise by trying to lecture us what and how things should be done. India is the customer and Dassault the service provider, we have the right to lecture them and not the other way around. French economy badly needs the money and I want India to give it to them only when we have extracted out pound of flesh i.e. the technologies we want. So I am not exactly thrilled by Dassault trying to act as the big brother here.



Only when it gets done the way India wants, Dassault can lecture somebody else.



And the competition will be developed eventually but it will take time and proper planning by India for that, Dassaults unwanted lectures aren't going to do that.

Then pray tell how will such a competitor develop if you keep feeding everything to HAL?



Dassault is required under contract to get a certain number of planes manufactured in India, and if they don't they will face penalties.

Not only that, if they choose an incompetent partner who can't get it's act together, that will just delay orders of French gear that go into the plane and might eventually face cancellation altogether.

Even an entirely 'Indian-built' plane will have tons of French content.

Clearly it is in Dassault's interest to make this work as quickly and as efficiently as possible.




No competitor at doing what? Bolting together vendor-provided assemblies? Do you seriously doubt that Reliance can bolt together assemblies at least as well as HAL?



This is precisely the sort of thinking that's going to get you stuck with HAL for another 50 years.



I'm sorry, but the level of 'manufacture' HAL has achieved does not take decades to achieve.



No, just no. I wouldn't want HAL in any sort of position of authority.

You just talked about how Dassault doesn't want a competitor, which is laughable considering the expertise they have that does indeed take decades to build up.

No, the company that is truly afraid of a competitor is HAL!

HAL has a pretty sweet gig right now and will do everything in their power to preserve it.



How much more stalled can it get?

If that was their intent, they would happily work with HAL who has proven time and again that they can bolt together foreign planes while learning nothing of value from the experience.



Does India want to continue to reward HAL for their incompetence and expect nothing better?

Is that what India wants?



Really? What is your plan develop competition 'eventually'?



Here's a plan:
- Bring in a respected industry leader (like say Dassault) to teach aviation expertise to a company that has a lot of capability and is hungry to grow some more, but doesn't necessarily have experience in the sector (like say Reliance)

Brilliant!

I would like to see a pvt player be system integrator for amca as well. Amca is ada, lrde,bel,nal....hal is just the guy looking to get a plate of rice and meat free at every marriage party under govt patronage.

Looking at their progress on ijt, one can guess how badly they would mess the amca even if we manage to put it together.

HAL has already started outsourcing work the next strep would be to set up production lines and R&D houses in partnership with private industry this way slowly they will start developing capabilities which then will reap benefits in future.



I am not interested what will be "manufactured" in India seeing the LCA saga has taught me well that all these years we were getting swindled by foreign aerospace giants who took umpteen amounts of $$$ but didn't share a drop of knowledge the lack of which is showing in the LCA. But LCA has been a great learning experience for Indian aerospace industry so days of arm twisting by foreign aerospace companies are numbered.



I am sure cancelling in the middle will help the Indian aerospace industry a lot. You are totally right here.



Good point, BRFites should read this and ask themselves whether we would really be getting the knowledge of A grade tech with this deal or is it just another glorified screw driver deal ??? Even if we get that knowledge should we allow Dassault to dictate us on who should get it and how ???



Yeah clear as crystal for me whose "interests" Dassault wants to serve.



Again a very good point just goes on to show that all you wish for Indian aerospace is for them to bolt together assemblies for the rest of there lives. HAL is still doing so because of bad government policies and getting swindled time and again by foreign aerospace giants etc etc. This will only stop when Indian aerospace sector develops the required knowledge base on it's own cause as I said before no country parts away with it's A grade tech and this will exactly be the case with Rafale as well. We will develop these capabilities eventually but certainly India doesn't need Dassault, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Sukhoi etc. to come and lecture what should be done and what not. All these years they have time and again shown there real intent.



Comprehension problem ??? Take a look in what context I made that statement.



That's because the system never tasked HAL to do that and to top it off the disinterest of IAF in seriously backing an indigenous defence aerospace industry so it's not all HAL's fault but as I said before LCA is a great learning experience the knowledge base it is generating will make sure that in future we don't have to look upto any foreign aerospace company for any kind of help. The foreign aerospace companies also weren't interested in sharing the knowledge required to up the level in manufacture all they supplied was screw driver tech and keep screwing us again and again in the name of ToT.




What you want or not matters zilch to the decision makers.



Exactly and that's why they never shared there knowledge and never will because sharing it would mean creating a competitor which is bad for business. Only after toiling hard for decades India will be able to develop the same or better capabilities, no amount of money is going to bring that "expertise" that you are talking about and that's exactly what Dassault or any other foreign aerospace company doesn't want to see happening in India hence all the lecturing about what India should do or not.



Maybe you are right but the decision makers have decided that HAL needs one.



Too late things are already moving.



As much as the foreign companies want if we dance to their tunes.



Yeah and doing the same thing with pvt. industry will magically make them competent enough to shoulder the burden of Indian aerospace needs. Great logic



What India wants India knows very well and as I have said more than once that we don't need foreign aerospace companies to lecture us. They have shown there true colour we know how much sincerity they have towards Indian interests.



Read my first reply in this post.



Oh yeah and I am sure Dassult will follow this plan with all honesty