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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 09:51 
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@ pentaiah:

Engine design is not a trivial task. It requires a lot of experience and huge knowledge base. Almost all (if not all) of the domestic auto manufacturers ( 2 wheelers and 4 wheelers included) get a lot of help from foreign consultants (AVL, FEV etc) for their new tech engines. So, to do it all on your own with zero experience and infrastructure is a monumental task that requires a lot of funding and perseverance, something that the initial Indian effort for Arjun engine did not do (the were not properly funded and gave up after choosing the MTU one).

Of course we Indians also get the harishchandra syndrome in the wrong spheres of life. We keep on looting our own people through corruption etc. but we will not reverse engineer a MTU engine.

IIRC, I read somewhere that AVL refused consultancy for Arjun engine.


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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 14:48 
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SaiK wrote:
Every other country's deal with IA is under scanner, except the big two cold-war enemies., especially the ever nexus-ed everything hidden under the scanner 70% market share erstwhile commies. How come? especially dealing with an indic group of well formed and organized to deal with any type of banana transactions?


Well I guess the Ruskies have the dope on all politicians across the Indian political spectrum.Remember during the cold war days the KGB was well embedded into the Indian system Thats why no one dares open their mouth against the Russians= No scandals. :mrgreen: :twisted:

Its the same with Uncle SAM nowdays me thinks. I wouldnt be surprised if most of the allegations that come out against companies of other countries are enginered by the Amrikis and the Ruskies.


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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 16:47 
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I saw a photo this week of the russian ambassador in delhi going to greet loh purush on his birthday and touching his feet to seek his blessings...

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=780300

Russian Ambassador to India Alexander M Kadakin broke away from diplomatic protocol to touch Advani's feet when he reach the latter's residence to wish him.

Such a gesture is virtually unheard of in diplomatic circles and many were surprised to hear about it. Most diplomats and heads of state or government only go to the extent of folding their hands in a "namaste" to wish an Indian leader. Shaking of hands is the norm in such meetings.

The two were engaged in an animated conversation in Advani's sitting room. The envoy also presented Advani a small Ganesh idol.

Kadakin, an Indophile, conversed in chaste Hindi with Advani throughout his visit at the Prithviraj Road-residence.


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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 19:25 
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Location: Chaprasi and Bawarchi third gilass, South East corner, aka Agneya
Gurnesh.

A nation aspiring to make FBR cryogenic engines ramjets give me a break

The first engine for submarine for US came from MAN to Detroit diesel company. Then rest is history.

We are talking Diesel engine
And our infrastructure is far superior to the days when Yankees got first engines from Germany

We just don't want do it, mind you ask a simple question
What R & D were they doing in all the institutions that I listed and have synergy going, I did not include Kirloskars who have cattle pillar collaboration for slow speed marine engines.

Chalo who cares
Let sleeping dogs sleep


........

http://www.subvetpaul.com/Engines.htm

Notice the summary
How MAN engines were improved and localized by US
Notice how the railway Diesel engines can be used to power Submarines
Notice the synergy by visiting MTU website
Notice how Catlepilar did it
[url]
http://www.armedforces-int.com/article/ ... ducts.html[/url]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustan_Motors#Earthmoving_Equipment_Division_.28HMEED.29

We had Technology from
Czech engines
Russian engines
Ukrainian engines
International tractors engines voltas
GM engines
Leyland British
Kirloskars caterpillar
MAN engines Jabalpur OFP

If we are not jokers in moving and running with this technologies then what use are these institutions

IITs and other CSIR DRDOs CVRDE except for looting exchequer ?

Mind you IIT are technology institutions not Engineering or pure Science
No wonder Narayan murthy has such opinion of IITs


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PostPosted: 10 Nov 2012 23:21 
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pentaiah wrote:
Gurnesh.

Mind you IIT are technology institutions not Engineering or pure Science
No wonder Narayan murthy has such opinion of IITs


We need to make pure sciences a lucrative career option. :evil: Come on it is pathetic the state the IITs are in. There is not much world class research coming out of them . There are nowhere in the list of top world institutions (whatever delusions a lot of us may have). On top of that we have this coaching class culture which as N Murthy put it helps the mediocare to get into these institutions. ( I wonder if Chetan Bhagat got through on account of a coaching class :twisted: ) Anyway all that IIT's seem to want to do these days is join an IIM , get an MBA and run to phoren shores or get into some other field.


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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 04:00 
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Location: Chaprasi and Bawarchi third gilass, South East corner, aka Agneya
Quote:
Engine Alco 251-B, 16 cylinder, 2,600 hp (2,430 hp site rating) with Alco 710/720/?? turbo supercharged engine. 1,000 rpm max, 400 rpm idle; 228 mm x 266 mm bore/stroke; compression ratio 12.5:1. Direct fuel injection, centrifugal pump cooling system (2,457 l/min at 1,000 rpm), fan driven by eddy current clutch (86 hp at 1,000 rpm)


Ideally this Alco engine could have been our platform to design
Engines for
Submarines diesel electric
Shallow water surface ships

Armored vehicles
Tank
Towed artillery

Earth moving
Generator sets
Etc etc
See what others have been doing


Image


Image


Image this one is the cylinder
Assembly which is fabricated ( with die cast piston in it I am guessing) which then goes into another fabricated engine block the second picture
We are addicted to screw driver technology
Even though we have exotic collaboration from fields like metallurgy to manufacturing
Even Mahindra and Mahindra puts a imported single cylinder engine in their diesel auto rickshaws

Jokers wanted to enter US Market and tried to cheat the dealers as well


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PostPosted: 11 Nov 2012 11:32 
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Will wrote:
SaiK wrote:
Every other country's deal with IA is under scanner, except the big two cold-war enemies., especially the ever nexus-ed everything hidden under the scanner 70% market share erstwhile commies. How come? especially dealing with an indic group of well formed and organized to deal with any type of banana transactions?


Well I guess the Ruskies have the dope on all politicians across the Indian political spectrum.Remember during the cold war days the KGB was well embedded into the Indian system Thats why no one dares open their mouth against the Russians= No scandals. :mrgreen: :twisted:

Its the same with Uncle SAM nowdays me thinks. I wouldnt be surprised if most of the allegations that come out against companies of other countries are enginered by the Amrikis and the Ruskies.


:(( :(( :((


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PostPosted: 18 Nov 2012 14:48 
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What is the future of BMP2 in Indian army?
Here i find the upgrade of BMP.
Quite nice upgrade though i seen these many moon ago but still IA is not interested in it :arrow: IMHO.
We should look into this type upgrade and must do it to our BMPs because first of all has long Life cycles on the other hand they are formidable in it class . also licensed produced in India.
Russian brought the same BMP 2 concept in DEFexpo2012 albeit a model.but i dont think we need to look toward them for upgraded.we can himself do it (depend on term condition of license)
we can save billions with these upgraded rather than going totally retired them
UPGRADED


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 20:45 
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Wonder if they have evaluated the Israeli Trophy/Windbreaker system for the Arjun-MKII. Thats some cool system. The Israelis do come up with innovative systems to face the threats that they are surrounded with.


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PostPosted: 20 Nov 2012 22:09 
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Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle: Biggest Indigenous Defence Project]

The nearly $10 billion Indian Army’s Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) project is already the largest indigenous defence programme. The FICV project has been classified under the "Buy & Make” category mentioned in Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP-2011). The vendors for Indian Army’s FICV project will be shortlisted on the basis of technical, functional and commercial aspects, and only local Indian firms can bid. However, local firms can opt for technology tie-ups with foreign companies. It will help develop a whole eco-system of small and medium sized companies as suppliers to the winners of the contract. The FICV development will provide a big boost to India’s pursuance of self-reliance and indigenisation in the form of a robust domestic defence industrial base.

The backbone of the Indian Army’s infantry combat vehicles is the Russian-designed BMP (‘Sarath’ BMP-II) series which are being made by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) since its induction in 1980. Approximately, 1900 ICVs BMP-2/2K are in service with the Indian Army and are likely to remain operational till 2017. The Indian Army is worried about its operational capability, particularly in terms of rapid deployment post the 2017 scenario. Thus, the FICV project is a strategic and critical programme which will define Indian Army’s mobility, deployability and lethality in the future to come and its ability to execute its proactive strategy.
The FICV project envisages 70:30 allocations to the winner and the runners up of the contract with an 80:20 funding distribution by the Government and industry respectively. The Army has identified a need of nearly 2600 ICVs over 20 years with the following specifications:

a) Weight of around 20 tonnes so that it can be transported by air and other means
b) Strike power of a 45 tonne Main Battle Tank (MBT) including a rapid fire cannon, a 7.62 mm machine gun, grenade launcher and an anti-tank missile
c) To be operated by a three man crew consisting of the commander, gunner and driver with an additional capacity to carry seven fully equipped infantrymen
d) Fully amphibious and all terrain capability for high mobility to keep pace with armour
e) Buy and Make (Indian) category, open only to domestic firms


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 01:59 
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Why any futuristic machines have to be manned? I think we can utilize the space for more ammunition, and make the whole platform lot more lethal. remote controlled guns are the way to go.. one could fight war on tanks sitting in Bangalore or Ooty hills.


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 04:15 
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SaiK wrote:
Why any futuristic machines have to be manned? I think we can utilize the space for more ammunition, and make the whole platform lot more lethal. remote controlled guns are the way to go.. one could fight war on tanks sitting in Bangalore or Ooty hills.

SaiK ji, it would be too easy to jam communications or even disable communications (with EMP) to a remote-controlled vehicle/tank which needs a continuous link for every manoeuvre.


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 07:23 
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at best they can hope for something like CV90, but no way it can take on a MBT in a straight shooting match...the armour will be too thin to even withstand hesh or heat 120mm rounds. I hope one of the domestic contenders ties up with the CV90 makers and offers a incarnation.


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 07:47 
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jamwal wrote:
Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle: Biggest Indigenous Defence Project]

The nearly $10 billion Indian Army’s Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) project is already the largest indigenous defence programme. The FICV project has been classified under the "Buy & Make” category mentioned in Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP-2011). The vendors for Indian Army’s FICV project will be shortlisted on the basis of technical, functional and commercial aspects, and only local Indian firms can bid. However, local firms can opt for technology tie-ups with foreign companies. It will help develop a whole eco-system of small and medium sized companies as suppliers to the winners of the contract. The FICV development will provide a big boost to India’s pursuance of self-reliance and indigenisation in the form of a robust domestic defence industrial base.

The backbone of the Indian Army’s infantry combat vehicles is the Russian-designed BMP (‘Sarath’ BMP-II) series which are being made by Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) since its induction in 1980. Approximately, 1900 ICVs BMP-2/2K are in service with the Indian Army and are likely to remain operational till 2017. The Indian Army is worried about its operational capability, particularly in terms of rapid deployment post the 2017 scenario. Thus, the FICV project is a strategic and critical programme which will define Indian Army’s mobility, deployability and lethality in the future to come and its ability to execute its proactive strategy.
The FICV project envisages 70:30 allocations to the winner and the runners up of the contract with an 80:20 funding distribution by the Government and industry respectively. The Army has identified a need of nearly 2600 ICVs over 20 years with the following specifications:

a) Weight of around 20 tonnes so that it can be transported by air and other means
b) Strike power of a 45 tonne Main Battle Tank (MBT) including a rapid fire cannon, a 7.62 mm machine gun, grenade launcher and an anti-tank missile
c) To be operated by a three man crew consisting of the commander, gunner and driver with an additional capacity to carry seven fully equipped infantrymen
d) Fully amphibious and all terrain capability for high mobility to keep pace with armour
e) Buy and Make (Indian) category, open only to domestic firms


Why we should not upgrade the BMP 2?
inducted in 80s still have another 20+ year of life.
it is 15 tonnes class more protection can be add locally(kanchan or ERA)
Engine with more power easily compensate wait gain(IA already looking for it)
Turrets can be upgrade with modern fire controls more modern ATGM add to fire power
a amphibious by birth
Already made in India confidently with various varieties.

No ICV really can take the role of MBT OF anyclass only mediums caliber gun can be accommodate on board(many shortcomings with big gun and light ICV)

FICV should be only for wheeled one at present (if any)
Looking at the current budget situation we should use the money wisely more on big guns for now


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 12:58 
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I remember there is some IFV design by name like abhay under development. What happend to that project? I wonder new forign mall with lot of mitai is going to be purchased after lot of develpment of Indian system.

winki uncle link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhay_IFV

How come this project is not being followed now with finilizing the design and starting a production line.


Last edited by Yagnasri on 21 Nov 2012 13:01, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 13:00 
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Location: Desh ke baarei mei sochna shuru karo. Soch badlo, desh badlega!
It became a missile :mrgreen: waiting for its first test flight


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PostPosted: 21 Nov 2012 13:04 
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edited the name yar. It is Abhay


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 16:01 
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Returned from trip to North Sikkim on Sunday. The roads in the area are quite poor and to my non-military eyes seemed like deployment of Armour in the sector was near impossible.

But then again, this is the Indian army we are talking about. If they could take tanks up Zozila pass in 1948, they sure can do much better in 2012.
Don't know if this should be public information or not and hence not sure how much to write.
The facts would be obvious to anyone visiting the place and also one gets to see the large buildup of the IA all along the routes as well.

Will try to post pictures of the roads and the area and give info about the IA in the area once I am sure I am not saying more then I should. Though being from a completely civilian background, not sure whom to ask, to make sure what can and cannot be said !!


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 16:13 
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Location: Desh ke baarei mei sochna shuru karo. Soch badlo, desh badlega!
When id doubt keep your mouth shut :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 19:10 
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PratikDas wrote:
SaiK wrote:
Why any futuristic machines have to be manned? I think we can utilize the space for more ammunition, and make the whole platform lot more lethal. remote controlled guns are the way to go.. one could fight war on tanks sitting in Bangalore or Ooty hills.

SaiK ji, it would be too easy to jam communications or even disable communications (with EMP) to a remote-controlled vehicle/tank which needs a continuous link for every manoeuvre.

mmm.. we are still thinking old ways.. when I meant remote-controlled, it does not mean the remote vehicle is without intelligence. many countries are R&Ding super duper algorithms, and model checking them currently.

not all communications can be jammed, btw... if we think out of the box, we have ways. just think about building all intelligent remote controlled vehicle sent to mars.. and you have only controls that can reach mars in 2 hours... so the vehicle is all alone for 2 hours without cNc.

another thought, is self-reconfiguration, intelligence to do all normal ops, except for emergencies, etc.

and another thought, is all communication need not be std.. burst mode, with least intercept logic. algorithms can change, and we can use dynamic encrypting mechanisms, with multiple band width spreads data comm.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 20:23 
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SaiK wrote:
mmm.. we are still thinking old ways.. when I meant remote-controlled, it does not mean the remote vehicle is without intelligence. many countries are R&Ding super duper algorithms, and model checking them currently.

not all communications can be jammed, btw... if we think out of the box, we have ways. just think about building all intelligent remote controlled vehicle sent to mars.. and you have only controls that can reach mars in 2 hours... so the vehicle is all alone for 2 hours without cNc.

another thought, is self-reconfiguration, intelligence to do all normal ops, except for emergencies, etc.

and another thought, is all communication need not be std.. burst mode, with least intercept logic. algorithms can change, and we can use dynamic encrypting mechanisms, with multiple band width spreads data comm.


What you expect from Antony!
Finance is scarce. this time AI can be research only at private firm, DRDO have some research, but no spare personal or time or money to keep it going IMHO.


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PostPosted: 22 Nov 2012 21:58 
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^then drdo is not doing its job correct.. and again the topic is "futuristic".. so, if they are not specified and mandated, let them cancel the project right away. what is the point of planning without funds. what you are saying is out of assumptions and hearsay.. i doubt what you are saying is having truth. that kind of gov programs are not acceptable. this is not for some individual game plans. what we are talking is for the future, and for the nation security.. and i fully believe we have no other way than to advance. we cant just keep looking at china, and relating to them is some manner.

we have to look at other advanced nations, and see how much we can do, where and whats. of course, within certain quarters if you talk, you will be pulled down into thinking for the clouted groups. so, never get influenced when it comes for what we want to do for the future. after all, every such open discussion is what gets into larger game plan of the future.. so it is important, we all share some story line towards what is most acceptable and challenging for the future.


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 12:10 
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krishnan wrote:
When id doubt keep your mouth shut :mrgreen:


Yeah, no pics or information when in doubt. Better safe than sorry.


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2012 20:09 
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SaiK wrote:
^then drdo is not doing its job correct.. and again the topic is "futuristic".. so, if they are not specified and mandated, let them cancel the project right away. what is the point of planning without funds. what you are saying is out of assumptions and hearsay.. i doubt what you are saying is having truth. that kind of gov programs are not acceptable. this is not for some individual game plans. what we are talking is for the future, and for the nation security.. and i fully believe we have no other way than to advance. we cant just keep looking at china, and relating to them is some manner.

we have to look at other advanced nations, and see how much we can do, where and whats. of course, within certain quarters if you talk, you will be pulled down into thinking for the clouted groups. so, never get influenced when it comes for what we want to do for the future. after all, every such open discussion is what gets into larger game plan of the future.. so it is important, we all share some story line towards what is most acceptable and challenging for the future.


PM->FM->DM->DRDO->scientist->Project->Product->end user Army
Now person in red is where the problem is.
DRDO doing fine but they need To fasten the projects so they keep pace with time for that they need more manpower more budget.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 20:49 
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Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase.

Top army generals are undermining India’s Arjun tank to push through a Rs 10,000 crore order for T-90MS tanks from Russia. Senior defence ministry (MoD) sources tell Business Standard that Arjun trials, proposed for the plains of Punjab, are being scuttled to prevent any high-profile Arjun success from jeopardising the import of more T-90s from Russia.

A proposal from the tank directorate for Arjun trials in Punjab has been placed on the backburner after instructions from the Military Operations (MO) Directorate. The powerful MO Directorate, more than any other branch of the army, deals directly with the army chief.

At stake here is the Rs 10,000 crore purchase of 354 new T-90MS tanks for six tank regiments for the China border. Business Standard had first reported the raising of these regiments (Sept 17, 2012, “In a first, Indian tank brigades to defend China border”). In the proposal that the government is considering for two tank brigades and a mountain strike corps, the army has put in the cost of 354 T-90MS tanks.

These new tanks will supplement the 1657 Russian T-90S, and 2414 T-72M tanks already deployed on the Pakistan border. So far, there are just 128 Arjun tanks in service, with an order for another 118 in the pipeline.

The army has denied that the MO Directorate is blocking any trials.

Even as the Arjun tank --- developed in India by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) --- outperforms the T-90 in comparative trials held by the army, support for Russian tanks inexplicably grows. With the Arjun’s performance established, the army is now arguing that the 60-tonne Arjun is too heavy for the soft soil of Punjab and J&K; it must therefore be confined to the deserts of Rajasthan. That would mean that only 4-6 of the army’s 65 tank regiments can operate the Arjun tank.

The DRDO rebuts this logic, as do the tank units that actually operate the Arjun. “The Arjun’s heavier weight is distributed over a larger area because of its larger tracks. Its “nominal ground pressure” is lower than the Russian tanks. So the Arjun can actually move more easily in Punjab,” says S Sundaresh, the DRDO’s Chief Controller of R&D for armoured vehicles.

This is validated by history, says Lieutenant General (Retired) RM Vohra, who won a Mahavir Chakra in the 1971 war while commanding 4 HORSE, a tank regiment equipped with Centurion tanks. He says the 42-tonne Pakistani Patton M-48 tanks got mired in the soft soil of Asal Uttar, in Punjab, while the 51-tonne Centurion moved around that battlefield easily.

The T-90MS, a new, upgraded version of the T-90S that India bought in 2001, is regarded as well suited for the extreme cold of Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh, where the two new armoured brigades will operate. The Arjun, in contrast, is designed to withstand the heat of the Indian plains, where the T-90S has repeatedly malfunctioned in high temperatures. The T-90S now being built under license at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, near Chennai, have proved less reliable than the Russia-built T-90S that were delivered initially.

“The army is justified in wanting the T-90MS for the China border. But it is wrong in scuttling the induction of the Arjun in Punjab and J&K. The Arjun must be given a fair chance. How can a Russian tank be given preference over an Indian one?” says a senior armoured corps general who is still in service.

The six tank regiments being bought for the China border will be divided between two armoured brigades, one located in Ladakh, and the other one in the north-east. Both sectors have valleys and plateaus in which China could attack with tanks. The new tank formation will safeguard these approaches and also provide a retaliatory capability in case of Chinese attack.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 20:59 
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DGMO truly seems like a club of russian loyalists for various reasons. seems to have "deep ties" from decades...always anti-arjun in posture.

imo the T90MS being of russi origin should work well in cold weather but not enough of a overmatch against the ZTZ99 and IFV combos coming in via tibet channels.
we need both the T90 and arjun in ladakh for sure, highest chances of a armour vs armour engagement there. backed by strong troop of WSI and LCH.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 21:42 
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Arjun is like a Child born out of a wedlock between Indian army and DRDO , India should reverse engineer T-90 or make illegal copy of it and give it to Army has imports they will still love it even if copies are not up to standards .


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 21:52 
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Corruption is stifling any chance of India developing into a stronger military power. If GOI cannot tackle this culture corruption then 62 will be repeated again.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 22:20 
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Chinese for all their posturing against US, ape it to the letter 't', watch the grease monkeys and their antics on the carrier video in the Chinese mil thread, if they build a Abrams sized tank likewise suitable for Tibet then the reactionary IA will probably take notice of Arjun


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 23:19 
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While the reaction to the Arjun program is on expected lines, I don't get the logic given by AS on two counts:

1. How is the requirement for Chinese border in North and North-East for new tanks related to the trials of Arjun tank in Punjab or J&K? While I can understand the overall impact on import of new T-90 being questioned with success of Arjun in Punjab/J&K, I cannot understand the specific link-up with 2 x (I) Armored Brigades theory.

2. And what's with it must therefore be confined to the deserts of Rajasthan. That would mean that only 4-6 of the army’s 65 tank regiments can operate the Arjun tank. - this is complete nonsense.

- The whole 31 Armored Division of 21 Corps along with its RAPID and (I) Armored+Mechanized Bde of 12 Corps will fight in the desert. In addition to that, 1 Corps and 10 Corps under SW Command should also be milling around in South Punjab/North Rajasthan+ Central Rajasthan Area - Last I checked, this is eminently tank warfare country.

The whole damn Southern Command can be converted to Arjun if the army wants it to happen.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 23:40 
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Rohit, sorry to say, but we've always known the answer:
>> if the army wants it to happen.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 01:01 
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rohitvats wrote:
While the reaction to the Arjun program is on expected lines, I don't get the logic given by AS on two counts:

1. How is the requirement for Chinese border in North and North-East for new tanks related to the trials of Arjun tank in Punjab or J&K? While I can understand the overall impact on import of new T-90 being questioned with success of Arjun in Punjab/J&K, I cannot understand the specific link-up with 2 x (I) Armored Brigades theory.

2. And what's with it must therefore be confined to the deserts of Rajasthan. That would mean that only 4-6 of the army’s 65 tank regiments can operate the Arjun tank. - this is complete nonsense.

- The whole 31 Armored Division of 21 Corps along with its RAPID and (I) Armored+Mechanized Bde of 12 Corps will fight in the desert. In addition to that, 1 Corps and 10 Corps under SW Command should also be milling around in South Punjab/North Rajasthan+ Central Rajasthan Area - Last I checked, this is eminently tank warfare country.

The whole damn Southern Command can be converted to Arjun if the army wants it to happen.

For Point 1, I think since money is limited that Rs10K corer (or part of it) can be used to buy Arjuns and send some of the existing T90 regiments to China borders. This is a good opportunity to spend money on home grown stuff rather than load up on more of foreign maal.

For Point 2, He may be thinking of absolute minmum arjuns regiments that army will only deploy at Rajasthan, T90s can be deployed every where. So by that thinking of army, if it is true, they can limit the number of Arjuns to a few regiments and MoD/DRDO will have to buy it. What can through cold water on this sales pitch is "dramatic results from arjun trials at Punjab" which are being blocked by MO to protect T90s procurement interests


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 03:23 
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I think we need a war to prove a point on tanks.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 04:58 
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Arjun is incorrectly named
Should have been names Karna

1 Karna has Kanchn armor built in
2 Karna was born to illegitimate mother out if her wish to have a son like Sun
just like IA wish kunti wish was not legitimate to be like a virgin and yet be Madonna
3 IA never liked DRDO doing nothing but making tall promises
Why do you think DRDO names Advanced?
They will advance the delivery to future date

First make a engine
Be it Tank
Be it aircraft
Be it ship
Then integrate into the welding business
Of chassis
The welding has synergies with a sub building
Welders and or welents not good for Sub building should go tank building
Or tank building

The list can go on and on and on

A proven junk is better than promised junk
Not because of inability to make but the attitudes and management
But importantly commitment and pride are comensurte to see results


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 05:11 
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Pentaiah, little point in requesting you to not repeat the same litany of complaints in every topic, I presume? We've read it before sir.

As regards Arjun & T-90, this comment "proven junk better than promised junk", are you aware about the problems being faced by the T-90s in India, and how "proven" they really are as versus the Arjun which outperformed them in trials literally forced down a reluctant DGMF's throat.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 08:14 
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Singha wrote:
..
Russian Ambassador to India Alexander M Kadakin broke away from diplomatic protocol to touch Advani's feet when he reach the latter's residence to wish him...

Vodka - T90 special edition perhaps.

Quote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19773
the army is now arguing that the 60-tonne Arjun is too heavy for the soft soil of Punjab and J&K; it must therefore be confined to the deserts of Rajasthan. That would mean that only 4-6 of the army’s 65 tank regiments can operate the Arjun tank.

so punjab is full of slush? Earth can't take 60tonne arjun is a joke! what a load of crap... soft soil of punjab and j&k. broad day light lie.

while m1 abrahams of 70tonne above can perform in loose soils of afpak and middle eastern desserts, but arjuns are complete failure in more stable soil regions of desh.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 10:36 
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Under the skin the T-90MS is virtually a new tank with true H&K capability and every thing new barring its name ..perhaps its a good idea to upgrade the remaining lic produced T-90S to MS standard then order more ...or may be ordering some number is a prerequisite to lic build the remaining T-90 to new standard


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 10:54 
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Apart from the fire control system what else is new in terms of HK capability?
A so called BMS which will have issues in fleet wide deployment because India is deploying its own BMS which is to be integrated with F-INSAS/CIDSS?

The basic TI/FCS on the base T-90S never worked to India's satisfaction and a new fangled system is to be procured for the new T-90s which is yet to be proven in trials? If this is not farce, what is?

Seriously, this keystone farce from the Army is no longer funny. Folks need to be held accountable.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 11:00 
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rohitvats wrote:
While the reaction to the Arjun program is on expected lines, I don't get the logic given by AS on two counts:

The whole damn Southern Command can be converted to Arjun if the army wants it to happen.

.


There is a difference between being pro Arjun and being anti T 90. As you correctly pointed out, there is plenty of space for both. Shook Law here, seems more interested in making sure that the services requirements get stalled (MMRCA, tanks) -- unless the supplier name happens to be a spelt with Capital B, followed by a o, etc, and failing that some where else located in the west. (either full or subsystem)


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 12:12 
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Quote:
With the Arjun’s performance established, the army is now arguing that the 60-tonne Arjun is too heavy for the soft soil of Punjab and J&K; it must therefore be confined to the deserts of Rajasthan. That would mean that only 4-6 of the army’s 65 tank regiments can operate the Arjun tank.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: .
So proof of pudding is eating innit ? Put both the tanks on mobility trials with a neutral overseer /umpire for the trial (get an IAF /IN observer to oversee the trials along with MoD folks, dont trust the IA on this at all after the previous sabotage!) . Fully loaded TinCans and Fully loaded Arjuns (max weights confirmed by going on the nearest highway weigh scale closeby and print outs taken, then top up all tanks) and let them run around in the flooded fields and marsh of the Punjab Doab and also the riverine areas of Jammu. Then after the A** whopping the Tincans will get, the army will invent more "reasons" like the one below!

Quote:
The T-90MS, a new, upgraded version of the T-90S that India bought in 2001, is regarded as well suited for the extreme cold of Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh, where the two new armoured brigades will operate. The Arjun, in contrast, is designed to withstand the heat of the Indian plains, where the T-90S has repeatedly malfunctioned in high temperatures.


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
You've got to hand it to the fertile imagination of the Natashas and their shamefaced double standards. All along they were bashing the Arjun saying that it lacked "strategic flexibility" (whatever that means), but with the C-17 buy, the Arjun+ C-17 combo is lot lot more "strategically flexible" than the Tincan + IL-76 combo will EVER be. Now that canard has been laid to rest, then they start off on another one ( about how Tincan is allegedly "better" suited for cold weather.. as if a cold weather pack for the Arjun is out of the world to procure and fit in a jiffy from Unkil or the Oieroes or to do it ourselves)

But the sheer brazenness of the Natashas take the cake. Now the Tin cans if you go by the "logic" perform well only in cold weather , but fail repeated in the hot plains. So where is the "Strategic Flexibility" of the Tincans ?

What is Sauce for the Goose is Sauce for the Gander onree no ? So how come no one talks of "Strategic Flexibility" of the Tincans that if they spend their entire life sitting in the high himalayas are a terrible waste and will crimp flexibility and force planning overall.. If the Tincans are useless in the plains and if we get into a shooting match with the Pakis, you cant pull those out of the mountains and deploy them in the plains!


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