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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 20:15 
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Singha wrote:
they should be able to simulate that if they can mount the Agni1 launcher inplace of Dhanush imo.


IIRC Dhanush is the name of the stabilizing platform for the naval prithvi, they would have to tweak it so that it can stabilize the heavier Agni missile.


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 21:00 
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two bigger missiles code named AD1 and AD2 above the PAD range are being worked on. one of them will be peer of the Thaad and tackle long range IRBMs, while the AD2 wishlist states ability to take down full blown ICBMs...a tall order, but AD1 is definitely doable.

what I'd like to see is a swing role cansisterized missile that be based on warhead type
- ASAT weapon
- ABM weapon
- ballistic missile with BGRV porpoising along the edge of space
- hypersonic edge of space cruise missile
- low flying medium range 3ton warhead terror missile using sensor fused bomblets


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 21:40 
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Congrats to all involved in the interception exercise.
-------------------------
vasu raya wrote:

Old news: This news was released in 2010!
Despite all the propaganda that Iron dome is US funded, the truth is that the singaporeans paid and are the owners of the tech


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 21:45 
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shyamd wrote:
Despite all the propaganda that Iron dome is US funded, the truth is that the singaporeans paid and are the owners of the tech


How come ???


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2012 22:08 
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If that news is old, then DRDO seems to have taken the initiative for local development presumably for cost reasons, my Q is if an interceptor can be launched by this quick reaction system, what are the possible reasons it can't be morphed into homing onto the artillery gun or MBRL firing them? it can still retain its primary role for Nasr kind of threats.

The image from Kanson's post shows different tracks for the two target missiles suggesting different engagement profiles for AAD & PDV but together likely form a system with a high probability of intercept.

Would like to see an air-launched ABM modded for boost phase intercept on the technology roadmap


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 03:44 
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centre to come up in coastal Andhra Pradesh
Quote:
Hyderabad: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) plans to set up a missile launch site in the coastal town of Machilipatnam in Andhra Pradesh with an investment of Rs. 1,000 crore.

DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat, who is also the scientific advisor to the defence minister, told reporters in Hyderabad on Friday that they had asked the state government to allot 260 acres of land to set up the long-range missile testing centre.

"As soon as the government clearance comes for land, we will start creating infrastructure. It will take three years to set up the centre," he said.

The DRDO currently has launch facilities at the Chandipur-on-Sea and Wheeler Island at Balasore in Odisha and they are used to test fire the long-range Agni series, Prithvi and other shorter range missiles.

Saraswat said the proposed facility at Machilipatnam would complement the test range in Balasore.

It would be used for launching long-range missiles and also in carrying out tests for the Ballistic Missile Defence Shield wherein multiple missiles need to be launched for trials.

As the proposed site in Rajhamundry falls under the Krishna-Godavari basin, the ministry of petroleum had raised energy and security issues in view of oil and gas exploration activity in the area.

The scientific advisor, however, said the DRDO had resolved issues with the petroleum ministry. "We have amicably sorted out the issue with them," he said.


DRDO developing missile launch site in Machilipatnam


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 06:33 
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Main advantage of Iron Dome is not that it can intercept rockets, but each missile is very cheap. Supposedly even less than 40k there are reports that Israel can build Tamir for less than 10k as production is ramped up.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 06:45 
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Israel's main population centers are located close enough to hamas / hezbollah zones for even crude bm21++ rockets to be a threat.

in our case, barring a few places like gurdaspur and amritsar in punjab , a few towns in J & K, the ranges are longer and so rockets will be more powerful. can Iron dome intercept such projectiles too?

focus of our limited funds appears to be protecting major metros for now. protecting tactical army formations is perhaps best done by smashing the sources of these rockets using WLRs.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 07:00 
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Not sure but based on reports Fajr-5 are 250 mm rockets (Pinaka is 214 mm and Smerch is 300 mm fyi) and they were intercepted successfully.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 07:48 
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would be good if we had something integrated into the maitri/spyder/Akash2 framework rather than another system needing its own C3I, TELARs and crew.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 08:04 
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sure, India has a bit more design changes to be done for Arrow 3 range and speed.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 09:15 
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Initially even patriot system was much hyped during Gulf war I
Later the kill ratio was down graded

Always make locally and sell globally , that's the way Israel makes money so does PRC


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 10:25 
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Only sub-saharan africa and beggars like pakis buy chinese weapons. Not really an competition to to Israel or any standard India should try to emulate.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 12:08 
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Prithwiraj wrote:



The second video is interesting. Especially if viewed frame by frame on 0:23 seconds. The actual interception. the point to note is that two dots approach from top (presumably the target), a slower dot (presumably the interceptor) explodes, and two dots identical to the top ones exit following the same trajectory at the bottom.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 13:36 
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Sagar G wrote:
shyamd wrote:
Despite all the propaganda that Iron dome is US funded, the truth is that the singaporeans paid and are the owners of the tech


How come ???

Think about the size of Singapore

-------------------
Indian requirement is having PAD -> AAD -> LRSAM -> Akash -> other SRSAM

Layering. The iron dome was successful in blocking most of the rockets but some did get through and also I think they only used the system for population centres, not Israeli military bases.

Also when we were negotiating there were big doubts on its capabilities (whether it works) which is why India said we wanted it tested properly


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 15:07 
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shyamd wrote:
Think about the size of Singapore


You said that Singaporeans paid and are owner of the technology in Iron Dome, nowhere could I find any news about the involvement of Singapore in development of the system so how come you are saying that they are owner of the tech ???


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 15:15 
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Sagar G wrote:
shyamd wrote:
Think about the size of Singapore


You said that Singaporeans paid and are owner of the technology in Iron Dome, nowhere could I find any news about the involvement of Singapore in development of the system so how come you are saying that they are owner of the tech ???


Even paid is speculative: MArch, 2010 :: Was Iron Dome defense system actually built for Singapore?

There are more recent articles that suggest that Singapore has already deployed some ID batteries. But i seems like a likely scenario.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 16:33 
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^^^^ Hmmm very interesting.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 17:20 
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Israel does have a tradition of developing new weapon systems with foreign financing., they have deals with US/UAE/Turkey/India.. Singaporean collaboration started much before than with India.It is called having your pie and eating it too ! The one with China fell flat before it could go on but not before the Xerox country copied whatever it could.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 18:00 
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the ID cannot do much for singapore if someone across the straits were determined to rain down shells.

The israelis can enjoy the luxury of using $100K missiles for 5000 dollar rockets as long as Khan subsidizes them

If they want to bring Singapore to heel - cutting of the water supply is a lot better alternative :) -

Singapore knows its limitations and relies on Khan and then some backup relations with others for any military problems


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 18:59 
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Surya
Tamir interceptors cost much less than 100k to manufacture and are lot cheaper than Fajr-5 rockets.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 19:55 
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Surya wrote:
If they want to bring Singapore to heel - cutting of the water supply is a lot better alternative :) -

Singapore knows its limitations and relies on Khan and then some backup relations with others for any military problems


Singapore is now almost self-reliant for its water needs. There were 2 agreements with Malaysia to import water. One expired some time ago and wasn't renewed and they haven't renegotiated the second one either as it will be allowed to lapse when the time comes.


Last edited by vishal on 25 Nov 2012 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 19:56 
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^^^
I may be cheaper than a Fajr-5 (that's a 6+ meter long 900+ kg heavy weight rocket), but no way it it going to be cheaper than the "home made" ones that make up the bulk of the rockets that are being fired at Israel.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 20:45 
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Qassam rockets cost less than 1k to build but the cost to smuggle and hid them are likely more. Eventual plan is to make Tamir less than 10k and IMO they should couple that tiered system using phalanx.


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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2012 20:53 
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its very unlikely the US would tolerate a islamist Govt takeover in Malaysia or Indonesia(sumatra and java) ... would complicate their situation in the south china sea as these new "democrats" would promptly tie up with Cheen and lay sinic SOSUS arrays all over the region to hunt US subs

I would like to imagine malaysian and indonesian islamists are not as batnuts crazy like the TSP/Arab versions, but am prepared to be deeply disappointed knowing the 'troubled' history of islamism :)


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 01:02 
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vishal

I know - they have been trying with more catchment, recycling, and desalination - especially since Malaysia threatened a couple of times and played their hands.

not sure if that will completely make them independent -

Singha

the malays are generally laid back but a fair bunch of them are viciously rabid underneath.Luckily many are not in KL where I often go but deeper in - are some paki like characters.

Indonesia has more saner chars but who knows


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 01:58 
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India should sell off shore nuclear reactor to de salinate water for Singapore needs.

Line up a bunch of old soviet style nuclear submarines ( make sure that they don't submerse)

And supply the hot team into heat exchangers to de salinate



Quote:
The official said the program to dismantle nuclear submarines from the Northern Fleet had almost been completed and the majority of vessels due to be scrapped are currently with the Pacific Fleet


This decommissioned missile cruiser has a reactor of 300 MWt

Image

Quote:
. Desalination is energy-intensive. Reverse Osmosis needs up to 6 kWh of electricity per cubic metre of water (depending on its original salt content), hence 1 MWe will produce about 4000 to 6000 m3 per day from seawater. MSF and MED require heat at 70-130°C and use 25-200 kWh/m³, though a newer version of MED (MED-MVC) is reported at 10 kWh/m3 and competitive with RO. A variety of low-temperature and waste heat sources may be used, including solar energy, so the above kilowatt-hour figures are not properly comparable. For brackish water and reclamation of municipal wastewater RO requires only about 1 kWh/m3. The choice of process generally depends on the relative economic values of fresh water and particular fuels, and whether cogeneration is a possibility.

Some 10% of Israel's water is desalinated, and one large RO plant provides water at 50 cents per cubic metre. Malta gets two thirds of its potable water from RO. Singapore in 2005 commissioned a large RO plant supplying 136,000 m³/day - 10% of needs, at 49 cents US per cubic metre. Malta gets two thirds of its potable water from RO, and this takes 4% of its electricity supply. Singapore in 2005 commissioned a large RO seawater desal plant supplying 136,000 m3/day - 10% of needs, at 49 cents US per cubic metre, and has contracted for a 318,500 m3/d RO plant on a build-own-operate basis, costing US$ 700 million, to provide water at US 36 c/m3. The same company is building a 500,000 m3/d seawater desal plant in Algeria.

The UAE operates the 820,000 m3/day Jebel Ali MSF plant in Dubai, Fujairah producing 492,000 m3/day, Umm Al Nar 394,000 m3/day, and Taweelah A1 power and desal plant producing 385,000 m3/day.

In February 2012 China's State Council announced that it aimed to have 2.2 to 2.6 million m3/day seawater desalination capacity operating by 2015.

Small and medium sized nuclear reactors are suitable for desalination, often with cogeneration of electricity using low-pressure steam from the turbine and hot seawater feed from the final cooling system. The main opportunities for nuclear plants have been identified as the 80-100,000 m³/day and 200-500,000 m³/day ranges.

A 2006 IAEA report based on country case studies showed that costs would be in the range ($US) 50 to 94 cents/m3 for RO, 60 to 96 c/m3 for MED and $1.18 to 1.48/m3 for MSF processes, with marked economies of scale. Nuclear power was very competitive at today's gas and oil prices. A French study for Tunisia compared four nuclear power options with combined cycle gas turbine and found that nuclear desalination costs were about half those of the gas plant for MED technology and about one third less for RO. With all energy sources, desalination costs with RO were lower than MED costs.

The Kwinana desalination plant near Perth, Western Australia, has been running since early 2007 and produces about 140,000 m3/day (45 GL/yr) of potable water, requiring 24 MWe of power for this, hence 576,000 kWh/day, hence 4.1 kWh/m3 overall, and about 3.7 kWh/m3 across the membranes. The plant has pre-treatment, then 12 seawater RO trains with capacity of 160,000 m3/day which feed six secondary trains producing 144,000 m3/day of water with 50 mg/L total dissolved solids. The cost is estimated at A$ 1.20/m3. Discharge flow is about 7% salt. Future WA desalination plants will have more sophisticated pre-treatment to increase efficiency. In August 2011 the state government decided to double the size of its new Southern Water Desal Plant at Binningup plant near Perth to 100 GL/yr, taking the cost to about $1.45 billion. Stage 1 of 50 GL/yr was within the A$ 955 million budget.

At the April 2010 Global Water Summit in Paris, the prospect of desalination plants being co-located with nuclear power plants was supported by leading international water experts.


Last edited by pentaiah on 26 Nov 2012 02:03, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 02:01 
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pentaiah ji, your posts in the right thread should evoke good responses.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 04:17 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... S0CSY3G3YE

Indian Missile in 3D animation :D


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 04:48 
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^shaurya is not submarine launched.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 05:06 
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Singha wrote:
would be good if we had something integrated into the maitri/spyder/Akash2 framework rather than another system needing its own C3I, TELARs and crew.


Exactly. That would be the whole JV bit. But they need to deliver on LRSAM first. The big reason we went to Israel for the MR and LRSAM JV was to meet timelines since DRDO (DRDL/RCI/LRDE/ARDE/HEMRL et al) were overloaded with the combination of the strategic and tactical programs, including the BMD ones. And did not want to take on more programs than necessary.
The Israelis on the other hand, agreed to this, and went on ramping up their own programs (Arrow, Iron Dome, Davids Sling etc) essentially limiting resource availability for the MR/LRSAM projects.
These need to come through for both the Navy & AF, as they would allow us to fit out the Kolkata class ships & also boost the AD network by a significant amount.


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 06:42 
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@Saik

Isn't it Sagarika is a naval variant of Shaurya Missile??


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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 08:17 
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^^ Isnt the new N-sub base, Rambilli, also coming up near the proposed second missile launch site?


Last edited by sum on 26 Nov 2012 08:29, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 26 Nov 2012 08:22 
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Yes.. but the contention is about the launching.. canister based surface to surface has entirely a different mission profile, naming and gaming etc.

BTW, we could have so many commonalities between various missile and sub systems. I was just pointing that submarine launched variant is not named shaurya.


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 00:03 
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Surya wrote:
Indonesia has more saner chars but who knows


Indonesia has its share of rabid Islamists & their numbers are growing. In one of their islands, the police go out at noon blaring into loudspeakers that its time for namaz and everyone should stop working.

Hopefully Bali will retain its Hindu ethos


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 00:06 
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IMO, the 2nd video of the AAD test from LiveFist (top attack) demonstrates boost phase intercept


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 03:33 
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Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:
would be good if we had something integrated into the maitri/spyder/Akash2 framework rather than another system needing its own C3I, TELARs and crew.


I don't see any role for Iron Dome in Indian context. This system can be stretched overwhelmed in no time.
OTOH, David's Sling, if we have funds for it will be far better an investment to protect our forward Infra/Airbases/landing grounds and formations against heavy Cruise missile attacks.

Can anyone comment on Tamir's performance or capabilities against cruise missiles?


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 03:44 
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Koti, read Page 103 of the MOD annual report 2011-12, DRDO Section!

The IAF MRSAM is designed to neutralize fixed wing aircraft, helicopters , missiles subsonic, supersonic and tactical ballistic missiles) within a range of 70 km. Mind you, details have leaked at trade shows abroad of a booster equipped MRSAM able to cross >100 km, and something which the IAF does not want to tom tom.
Point is with MRSAM integrated with BMD we only have the very short range systems as a threat. That is where Iron Dome comes in. For both service formations and also cities next to the border. Mostly for the former though. Any system can be overwhelmed - the Iron Dome is smarter in that it chooses which targets to attack.
The Israeli ABM system is designed for one class of threats - missiles - primarily- to be cost effective. Arguably, a Davids Sling versus missiles will be cheaper than a MRSAM.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/2012/1 ... in-3-years

We already seem to have the MRSAM firmly in the role as it too can handle tactical ballistic missiles which are usually in the 100-200 km or more class. Like that bottle rocket Pakistan was touting the other day for deterring Cold Start.


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 04:27 
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MRSAM, will be used in a more area wide denial role rather then against LACM as these mostly will be terrain hugging and in numbers making longer range interception very hard.
I don't see any progress in SPYDER or Maitri in public media, however my interest in David's sling is its relevance compared to Iron dome.
Quote:
Point is with MRSAM integrated with BMD we only have the very short range systems as a threat.That is where Iron Dome comes in.

Agreed. But Iron Dome IMO is only suitable for low intensity artillery defense as IDF deals with. With a battery of 20x3 missiles it can at its max knock down 60 shells before it itself might be targeted or it runs our of steam. And if any border city is under shelling, we can expect 60 shells coming in every other minute(Not in the case of IDF) and this will saturate the system pretty easily.

I see a more manageable threat in defense of forward air bases and command/field formations from enemy LACM and this is where I was seeing the role of David's Sling(If Maitri/SPYDER don't make it there)


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 05:15 
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/78966197@N08/8210356857/lightbox/
AAD Concept Diagram.


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