Bharat Rakshak

What exactly is the issue you're having with privatization then?

None, I am all for privatization but I am against it's misdirected glorification as if making each and every thing pvt. will solve all of India's problem. The private industry also has to chip in to develop the ecosystem required to maintain R&D and I don't think they have done the needful. R&D requires patience and a lot of money which in time gives results, just for the sake of saying that privatization will make this happen more quickly doesn't make it true. PSUs have a lot of talent but are bogged down by the system in place, private companies have their own issues and associated evil in the form of connections to manipulate the system for their own good. So instead of chanting a blind privatization charm people should try and learn how the system works and use the best of both worlds for achieving the goal of indigenization. Instead of doing that posters here indulge in mindless abusing of PSUs and Babus and paint Pvt. industry as the saviour, which is far from the truth.

Here's an example of true-blue American ingenuity:
DIY: Shovel AK
This gent not only has a flair for improvising, but he can also write in entertaining style.


To top it off, he attaches a picture of a 10-shot grouping with his home-build at 50 yards using 40 year old ammo. Pure awesomeness.

Once a piece of equioment has been productionized, the developer is no longer involved, unless there is some major flaw. Major flaws is occurring in production phase is unlikely if the testing has been rigourous before induction. Hence designer/developer involvement is low in that phase.

Not quite correct. In India, there is ABSOLUTELY NO prohibition on anyone doing R&D. IN developed the APSOH sonar. OFB developed the CRN-91 Gun without any assistance from DRDO or anyone else, that has replace the OTO gun with Coast Guard, and close to 100 units manufactured & deployed on IN ships.

As I said earlier, its the quality of the R&D as well as the manufacturing process that decides how good the output turns out to be, whether government or private sector.

Drdo was trying to obtain permission for developing a follow on of INSAS since 2000 but was prevented by Army. This permission/GSQRs were released only in 2010. The FINSAS was to begin bench test firing in sept-oct 2012, though I don't know the current status. The honesty of Army procurement system is legendary- T-90, TATRA, Adarsh, ARVs, Air Defence Gun etc

What do you mean by DRDO trying to obtain permission?
My memory says Insas Excalibur developed by DRDO was envisioned to replace Insas AR but IA declined it. I am not sure whether AK 7 and Trichy Assault Rifle are from DRDO or the OFB alone.

And what about the Air Defense Gun? I think I missed something on that.

Testing is different thing than production, even after successful testing one can still mess up production if not properly handled. IIRC DRDO has blamed OF more than once for botching up their successful designs.



If you are talking about the pvt. sector then maybe you are right but in case of government sectors I guarantee you sir my info is pretty pukka especially if we talk about OFs. They are not allowed to do R&D out and out but modifying is kosher. OFs are heavily bureaucratized and they aren't allowed to do much more than what they are supposed to do. One thing more saar when vina garu was criticizing IAF for not supporting LCA properly then an ex IAF guy who is also a BRF member had answered him and during that he had said that IAF wanted to do R&D on aircraft's but HAL had stonewalled it. So saar governments organizations are not that independent as you think they are but yes some exceptions are there, but OFs are not on that list.




Didn't one of the IITs also played a huge role in developing the sonar ??? I am pretty sure IN must have done it's time in MoD to get the required approvals, you can better tell us about that.

Searching for info about CRN-91 tells me that it is modification of a Russian licensed manufactured gun (correct me if I am wrong here) so I don't think sir we can say that OF developed the gun on it's own. Again sir I guess you have better access to such info so please tell us more about it.



Absolutely right.

On the contrary, private firms were explicitely prohibited under law to do defence R&D or manufacture. It is only recently that certain areas have been opened up for them. However no such statutory or legal prohibitions exist for any government entities for either R&D or manufacture. For example, BHEL manufactures naval guns when its original mandate was to build power generation equipment.

Regards to IAF vs DRDO on aircraft R&D, it is similar to whether IAF or IA should operate attack helicopters. There was no law, and IAF had entered into an arrangement with IA. IA opted out of that arrangement. IAF raised a hue & cry but could do nothing legally. Similarly, for IAF to get into aircraft R&D, it could have fought that battle more aggressively politically, like it did for operating attack HCs

Similarly, OFB & DRDO have a mutually convenient arrangement that OFB will not try to eat DRDO's lunch ie., budgetary allocation from MoD. In GoI universe, budgetary allocation is that unit's reflection of power. More allocation more power. And it shows how powerful their management are.

Political correctness is a key character trait for any PSU management, and rather then get into doing something positive like R&D, they would very meekly stay out. Of course, the same mice turn into tigers when going on strike for overtime.

The full story is there in Adm Hiranandani's book, from Transition to Eminence.

Its a system & not just the gun. The stabilization, marinizing & integration with EOFCS was far more important than just the gun.

I find this info hard to digest than what I know from my source would try and dig more to find something solid about it.



Welcome to the world of unions.



And OF did all on it's own without any help from outside ???

And the other part of the bargain is that DRDO will give first right of refusal of production to OFB. Mind you, its not a formal documented arrangement, its just the way things have evolved. Coming back to the point, if you want to check, you'll find no law or regulation preventing OFB from doing R&D. And they do. OFB put a 105 mm howitzer on a BMP2 as a SPG while DRDO developed Bhim SPG with Denel gun on Arjun chassis. As far as I know, none, other than end users.

I found some data regarding what are the duties of OFB from there site and R&D seems a very low key affair

http://164.100.107.12/index.php?wh=manuals&lang=en

From the first manual titled "Particulars of Indian Ordnance Factories Organisation - its function & duties" 4th page has a diagram in which R&D is shown to be the duty of DRDO but then in the portion below which reads



and then at last line it says



Which shows that you are right but then in the fourth manual titled "Norms set by the Indian Ordnance Factories for the discharge of its functions" it says in the very first line



So saar it seems like R&D is a low key affair with some tidbits only to show and mainly as I was told it's duty is production. Read both the PDFs they are pretty small and hardly there is any mention of R&D.

Strange new colours for INSAS

^^^^
Pretty nice paint job there. It blends very well with the bushes. Only spot that the paint job missed is the butt plate.

Rifle-cramped army sets sights on five



click on the small image below to open bigger image...

Actually, these could also be dummy rifles used in practice. I remember seeing a MARCOS pic posted not too long ago with orange colored rifles.

so we are going to dump the INSAS , and importing the standard rifle for the second largest army in the world from foreign countries...... shame
http://idrw.org/?p=16696

We will be importing almost all small arms:-

Assault rifles
Carbines
LMGs
HMGs
Sniper rifles etc

Importraj Jindabad

The article talks about 65K direct imports + license manufacture 112K. Hardly enough to meet our requirements, this seems more than adhoc election buy rather than a strategic buy.

can experts explain.. what are the primary reasons we are dumping INSAS ......
is the army is not satisfied ...or it is not futuristic...?

Not an expert. I think it is getting old and outdated. I met a serving colonel yesterday and asked him some specific questions about INSAS but got no new answers that we have not hear here. The finish is poor because of the material used to make it light, but it is very accurate. Also it was made for war but ever since it got inducted we have faced only insurgency. The difference is that in war a 5.56 mm bullet injuring a soldier puts stress on the enemy's system even if it does not kill him. With jihadis/insurgents who expect to die - boring a 5.56 mm hole though them is not good enough. They keep coming.

So I think the IA is now looking for multi caliber weapons with changeable barrels. And I guess the ability to hold modern sights and laser sights.

if that is the case i will go for TAR , because its service is already enjoyed by our SF and RR , and i believe we already have the licence for local production.....

There is nothing wrong with buying an import as long as it is locally manufactured. Right now, it would be important to quickly begin the production of the MSMC, this rifle should be the standard for all state and central police units, sure QRT and commando units can use weapons like the TAR and other rifles but the MSMC should be standard for most of the regular units since it has already met the 97% reliability requirment. Infantry can have the imported rifle.

Units like the RR, BSF, ITBP, Assam Rifles, SSB should have the Trichy Assault Rifle, this thing needs to be finished asap and preped for mass production. The design looks ok, it just needs a retractable butt stock instead of what looks like a ill-designed folding one. The retractable butt stock would make it look cleaner. Should also work on slowing its rate of fire. Add a lot more rails for added attachment options. If these issues are addressed, it could be ideal for SF units as well due to its useful AK round. I think this one can use even AK mags.

The KRISS Pistol should be the secondary weapon of choice for SF units, its hard hitting .45 acp is ideal for CQB and ideal second weapon with the primary that SF units carry.

http://www.google.be/imgres?q=trichy+as ... ,s:0,i:105

TAR fires5.56 is not multi caliber.

So we can not even design and produce a decent small arm for our forces now. All things are to be improted. Why we need OFB and lakhs of people working there and why we need DRDO is we need to to that??? Why not we ask some private sector people in India to produce a decent firm arm for Army??? Surely we have the capabilities for that???

We are doing too much importing and this is a serious problem which need to be addressed. What happend to the self sufficiency slogan of having 70% of defence needs made in India??? Army is simply interested in imports. Why not use AK47s which we already have to counter insurgency??? Surly we have numbers for that or we need a millon guns for anti insurgency operations.

No. We cannot produce the cheapest and best in the shortest time. For that we hold an international competition/mela and choose the cheapest/best available immediately. If we decide to use what is made at home. Indian soldiers, civilians and observers will be the first to complain and say how useless the weapon is compared to someone else's weapon. So we simply eliminate that step and get the weapons made by someone else since he is begging to sell.

^^^ While there is truth to that ... there is truth in the fact that OFB does really shoddy work of serial producing weapons ... We can't just place a blame on the jawans ... It is a fact that we don't have the best rifles in the world ... May be we have the design, but certainly the end product is not!

The only multi caliber rifle to go into production in the world was FNSCAR and then it was dumped after few hundred guns. Instead of costly clunky multi caliber for USD 2500 one can buy three different caliber rifles and still save money.

Before we start claiming that "we" cannot produce acceptable weapons because (..fill in favorite lame excuse here..), let's be clear about what that "we" includes--is it all Indian companies or just the PSUs, which anyway are proven duds?

What stopped our "leaders" from opening up our defense requirements to all companies in India, private and public, on a competitive basis and offering them all the same support, knowledge and expertise gained by our defense PSUs over the past century? After all, this knowledge and experience does not belong exclusively to a small coterie of government-run outfits but is the property of every tax-paying Indian entity, including private Indian companies.

It is the height of irresponsibility, incompetence and stupidity to suddenly say "whoops, OFB can't produce xyz so now we must buy from a foreign company since China may attack tomorrow". Does it strike any of these nincompoops that ALL the foreign companies they are now dependending on are PRIVATELY OWNED and to ask "why" this is so? One should be excused for suspecting that the entire defense supply chain is corrupt, starting from the management of the PSUs and ending at the very top of government. Nothing else explains the total and inexcusable failure of Indian defense production.

In fact it strikes me that this is a post-cold war attitude. It was not possible to take this attitude during the cold war because our manufacturing base/industry was not good enough but we had to depend on single countries for suitable items - mostly USSR, and never USA. There were all these stories of how sanctions during war had this ir that crippling effect.

Suddenly now I look around me and I find that all those fears of sanctions from foreign entities is gone. Our manufacturing base is not that much better but we are no throwing open bids to all and sundry and picking and choosing. No one can put any blame on anyone (babu/neta/jawan/mango man) who says "I want the world's best at the cheapest rate and I want it now!" How can anyone call that an irresponsible attitude?

Unless Indian companies private/public/gay/straight whatever can produce "world's best, at cheapest rate right now" they will lose out to a company that can fulfill those requirements. So we are now part of the "global village". And we buy our arms from the global village in a free and competitive market. A far cry from the Nehruvian socialism and Gandhian self help khadi/Dandi. Isn't that what we all want? We get the best at the cheapest rates and punish incompetent local industries and invite private companies who are proving to be as incompetent as the public sector. So we use our dollar reserve to buy arms. Why should anyone be unhappy? What can go wrong with this arrangement? Hain?

Well , Its aldready gone wrong, German suppliers Hekler and Koch are aldready dictating we can't use arms procured from them for Anti-Maoist operations. Its only a matter of time all and sundray start dictating to us.

Why does the US - the Top Dog in capitalism or Western Europe take such an approach, surely its cheaper to make a submarine in Russia than make one in USA or Europe, Why can't manufacturing of small and Artillery be outsourced like textiles?

Why do USA and Europe want a MIC While we brilliant Indians think other wise?

In fact, I liked the practical approach after 26/11, there is no way we can independantly attack Pak, we just don't have the ability to fight. Onkly 1971 did we have no dependence on the west to take war to its logical conculsion.

We can not be really free if we need every nut and bolt to be imported. Where we are going to end if we need to take permission from US Congress every time we take a pin out of the granade or start a Zeep. This import thing is a crazy ideal.

But the options with OFB is also quite bad. In long term we need to close down OFB units or make them private and allow new private players of India into arms design and production immediately. I am sure we have the ability and facilities in private sector to produce most of the weapon systems which we are now importing. The others will follow with India aquiring tach base. We already have example of Tatas coming out with their product in Artilary and Bharat forge is also there. Likewise I am sure in some 10 years we will be mostly producing our systems in India - from private sector of course.

But we need atitude change - Arjun example shall not be repeated.

I think we should end alll R&D, production and manufacturing. Sell our children into slavery and call it globalization

The problem is even if Indian companies compete they cannot become as good as the best in the world. Statistically they may produce something that is fairly good but it is unlikely to be the best every time all the time. There will always be something better and cheaper that incorporates things that the Indian item/gun does not have, or will come at a price cheaper than the Indian one.

When the government pours in tax money into Indian companies, we complain that its a waste of time and money because other countries are producing better things that are cheaper. So when the government stops pouring in that money and starts spending it on imports that we all agree are better and cheaper where is the need to complain or worry?

We have only two choices. One is to accept Indian stuff that is just OK but more or less indigenous (barring imports of raw metal/alloys or machine tools or computers and software to control those machine tools). The other is to screw the local stuff and import wholesale. We can't have both. Can we?

That is a pretty defeatist attitude to take sir. There is no reason why an Indian company cannot become world class with proper management, procedures and training.


No one produces the best firearm in the world, just by the nature of requirements, political decisions etc. However, it is the desire of most manufacturers to produce a product that meets *most* of the requirements of the end-user in acceptable fashion. Requiring the end-user to do his own machining work is generally not considered acceptable.

Why not go with a model where the design copyright is held by GoI and contracts for manufacturing are given out every few years or so to multiple competitors. The original designer can get royalty payments for ToT and for every unit manufactured. That way, no company can get away with shoddy construction practices.

And make it a requirement that the factory should be located somewhere in India. The US military does this and they use an Italian designed pistol (Beretta M9) as the standard sidearm. And for the last few years, the maker of the M16A4 has been a Belgian owned firm (FN) because Colt charged too much (though Colt still gets paid royalties because they owned the design around when the US military adopted the M16). In both cases (pistol and rifle), even though the parent firms are foreign, the products are manufactured in facilities located in the US, with American workers making them and sub-components sourced from US companies (for example, the M9 magazines are made by a couple of US companies), because US military rules specify this as a requirement. If the amount of money involved is large enough (and it will be large, as we're talking orders for the entire Indian military), every manufacturer of firearms, domestic or foreign, will have no problem with this requirement.

I think we should soley depend on Chinese arms. China will never attack a much valued customer and everybody can live happily ever after.

Well we are already buying Chinese chips for secure communication, so China is becoming synonymous with security. When we have people with good business sense we can make the whole world interdependent - and then we will have peace forever.

We are buying Chinese radars too. China imposes impicit sanctions against Japan on a hint of border dispute but we never fall into that trap. China can kick our ass as much as it wants but we will happily import everything Chinese. Normally Chinese imports are under invoiced upto ten times to help Chinese military controlled companies against devious yindoos/baniyaas.

I say we should actually use Chinese soldiers to man chinese weapons. Or what the hell, invite Chinese army to take care of our security, afthey all they are better and it would be more cost efficient.

Been there. Done that. Bought that T-shirt. Chinese technicians man the Chinese CNC machines in HAL.

:-( true 100%
chines just forward the tender To Bhel for cnc machine. but it is open tender no restriction country wise