LCA News and Discussions

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Indranil
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:
Katare wrote:I think Mk2 is only 0.5 meter longer and 0.2 taller with same wing span....
quite a huge space when one consider just keeping it for extra fuel.. cause, F414 is a larger game plan for the IAF, and they want more power and quicker turns at higher Gs.
What does that mean?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

means, the extra space is mainly meant for extra fuel [in my..]

added later:

http://idp.justthe80.com/air-force-proj ... /tejas-mk2
pretty much I was thinking corroborating previous reports/
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Sagar G wrote:Perhaps the LCA Mk.1 development is complete
We know that's not true.

All weapons integration hasn't taken place if nothing else.

indranilroy wrote:Or may be they had hit a roadblock
perhaps

indranilroy wrote:which they fixed and they are back to flying
Or those last 3 flights were before the roadblock and it still hasn't been fixed.
indranilroy wrote:I don't think that they would abandon the Mk1. They have 40+ GE-404 engines to use.
Sunk cost fallacy
indranilroy wrote:Mk-1 is very valuable, it is the stepping stone to success. They are ironing out so many things on this plane. All these lessons are important for the LCA MkII and AMCA.
It WAS important (past tense)
indranilroy wrote:It is important to operationalize Mk-1 and further iron out the wrinkles.
I am not so sure about that. They've done most of the hard/challenging stuff, what remains is the grunt work of certifying an endless combination of situations. If they see the LCA as a dead end, why continue to pour money and manpower into this final 'polishing' when it could be better spent on the Mk.2?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

GeorgeWelch wrote:We know that's not true.

All weapons integration hasn't taken place if nothing else.
Maybe they have done it already and will announce shortly.

We are all in a guessing game till official announcement.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nash »

Regarding only 3 flight in last several months, i think there was article that said there would be no flight during monsoon.
And thats the reason IOC-II get delayed...

And i doubt that only bangalore flight get logged not trials at other places, just guessing
Last edited by nash on 26 Nov 2012 21:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

There is no question of abandoning the MK1. Consider the worst case where MK1 is not going to be commercialised even in such a case flying it more would give more data to analyse and improve upon the design and the avionics. IIRC there was a scoop which said the team was working on bringing up all LSPs to the same level of configuration to accelerate testing. May be they were working on this(that kind of a task would definitely take four months) but unless we have an official input all of us here are similar to commentators in kirket commeting on how Sachin should have driven a ball. Btw that livefist report was a combination of what IR ji posted on this very thread three-four days ago.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

@GeorgeWelch,

I am certainly outside the walls of ADA/HAL. So all my thoughts are my best guesses :-)

1. The reason why I say that they fixed the problems and are back to flying is because we see the updates being made only now (can't help the optimist in me ;-) ). Plus, I remember somebody posting a few days back that he saw a LCA flying (I am placing some faith on his plane-spotting capabilities).

2. Till the day LCA Mk 1 does not get FOC, it IS and not WAS a learning experience.

3. I don't know what you mean by only grunt work is left. Wouldn't they need to polish LCA Mk2? A lot of "polishing" on Mk1 will directly affect the "polishing" of Mk2.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:means, the extra space is mainly meant for extra fuel [in my..]

added later:

http://idp.justthe80.com/air-force-proj ... /tejas-mk2
pretty much I was thinking corroborating previous reports/
Saik sahab,

They did not increase the length to increase the volume. It is an effect and not the cause.

By the way Livefist was not the first to break the news. I spoke about the RFP 4 days back on this very thread ;-).
indranilroy wrote:RFP out for parts of LCA MkII ... Due date is Dec 11 2012.
RFQ out for parts of LCA MKII ... Due date is Jan 22 2013.

They are planning to build the plane in 2013/14 (nothing new, just news about things proceeding according to timeline as of now)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeWelch »

indranilroy wrote:1. The reason why I say that they fixed the problems and are back to flying is because we see the updates being made only now (can't help the optimist in me ;-) ). Plus, I remember somebody posting a few days back that he saw a LCA flying (I am placing some faith on his plane-spotting capabilities).
could be
indranilroy wrote:2. Till the day LCA Mk 1 does not get FOC, it IS and not WAS a learning experience.

3. I don't know what you mean by only grunt work is left. Wouldn't they need to polish LCA Mk2? A lot of "polishing" on Mk1 will directly affect the "polishing" of Mk2.
Obviously there are still things to learn, but it could very well be that they are reaching the point of diminishing returns in terms of what could be applicable to a DIFFERENT plane (ie Mk.2).

If they have seen enough to know that overall design is sound, they could be down to minor aerodynamic issues that are only going to affect the Mk.1. The Mk.2 has a different shape and different aerodynamics, so the work will have to all be redone for it anyways.

Like you, I have no inside knowledge as to what's really going on, but it's not hard to imagine a situation where they decides that the diminishing returns on the value of what they're learning from further certification isn't worth the cost.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:dhiraj wrote:
Oh definitely not much information . I am only talking from the information available in the public domain/announcements/timelines set etc.
Like in my others posts i have always mentioned that if i stand corrected for any of my posts i will be the first to welcome it
So you are here to make predictions based on half baked knowledge for which you are ready to take claim "IF" they come true, OK got it.
dhiraj wrote:
What i only suggest is that with the kind of tech that is currently available i don;t see a cutting edge 5th gen AMCA in the near or mid term.
Now you confuse me, you say you don't have much information but still go on to claim that we won't be able to make a cutting edge AMCA. I see a contradiction here don't you ???
dhiraj wrote:
An advanced 5th gen AMCA or for that matter LCA Mk.2 with 5th gen tech requires at least a radar similar to AN/APG-81 , an engine which is at least as advanced as EJ 200 and avionics better than spectra.
Ok so lets say we buy all the three items that you have mentioned and hooray we will have a 5th gen fighter aircraft ???
dhiraj wrote:
Do we have them or can we realistically develop them in the next 10 year
If it gets developed in 11th year will it become obsolete ???

Sir, at least i made an opinion on the open source information and the current stage of Mk.1 , but based on your response above i did not see any credible information which could help me understand the optimism that a lot of people are showing on the prospects of AMCA.
Can you share any information for the reason of this optimism so that i have a better understanding of the things.

BTW regarding AESA, Engine i did not mean buying them from abroad, that we are already doing , i suggested being self-sufficient in such tech to meet any of our requirements.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

^^^ I understand what you say. But I don't think this is a case of diminishing returns. They would not have stopped flying the prototypes for small aero stuff. They have faith in the aerodynamics of the machine and hence they are adopting it to Mk2. Mk2 is nothing but the same plane which is elongated behind the cockpit to smoothen out the area curve at that point. It will also have some refinements which you can already see on LSP7 (APU intake and the extended wingbody blend). I think you will soon see that the pylons have much sharper leading edges.

As you can see that they are incorporating some of the refinements from Mk2 to Mk1. This fact and cancellation of Mk1 do not go together.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

dhiraj wrote: BTW regarding AESA, Engine i did not mean buying them from abroad, that we are already doing , i suggested being self-sufficient in such tech to meet any of our requirements.
You started of questioning how cutting edge AMCA is going to be. Now you are changing the subject to how indigenous is it going to be. Stick to one point and then probably somebody can answer you.

P.S.

I will try to answer some of your concerns.

1. Like you, I don;t have faith in Kaveri making it into AMCA. But that is not going to hold AMCA back. We might get imported engines. So what? Till we get our engines, we can't put them in our planes. And at the moment, I am very gloomy on that respect.

2. However, the situation is very different on the radar front. I think you missed the interview by Dr. Saraswat. We have the AESA antenna from the CABS AEW&CS. They designed it in a modular way and of course they tested it. So a smaller antenna can be easily made from that. We already have the backend of the radar even in the MMR which is going on to the Mk1 today.

3. We need weapons integration. I have a feeling that weapons on the AMCA are going to be very similar as that on the PAKFA. Weapons carried internally have more requirements that weapons carried outside. They have to fit inside the bay and they have to eject out of the bay during different flight regimes. For example F-22 can eject a internal missiles even while doing a roll, but it cannot eject a missile while it is flying supersonic (which is detrimental to the range of WVR missiles). PAKFA is supposedly going to be able to overcome this limitation. These learning and the adapted missiles will be incorporated into the AMCA.

4. The odds of LCA fructifying were much worse than AMCA fructifying. LCA is a reality today. Just be a little patient, AMCA will also come through.
Last edited by Indranil on 26 Nov 2012 22:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

GeorgeWelch wrote:but it could very well be that they are reaching the point of diminishing returns in terms of what could be applicable to a DIFFERENT plane
Considering that as many have suggested regarding the limited knowledge in testing an aircraft, there is scope for further refinement / testing for
A2A and A2G missions and AoA using Mk.1 . The data gathered from these tests could be used as input for Mk.2 testing to gain time.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Actually, there is no point 'fighting' over this issue. We will come to know whether the prototypes are back to flying within a week or two. Unless Raghu K drops some pearls ;-).

And just in case that Raghu K decides to drop some, please speak about LSP-8 and NP-2. Both are due at year end.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

indranilroy wrote:You started of questioning how cutting edge AMCA is going to be. Now you are changing the subject to how indigenous is it going to be. Stick to one point and then probably somebody can answer you.
Sir , a couple of things :
1. it was mentioned that LCA Mk2 and AMCA will have 5th gen tech and the timeline mentioned where for Mk.2 around 2017 and for AMCA 2020-22 (if i am not wrong). Great. Now the question is what are the critical tech for a 5th gen. My understanding is AESA, Engine, Avionics, RAM etc.
2. Now to have complete independence on the product developed we need the AESA and Engine tech, right ? Either we get these tech as part of Rafale or PAK-Fa deal then fine or we need to develop the tech. No issues with either option until we have the tech which can be adapted/enhanced to meet our requirements for AMCA and future products
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:Sir, at least i made an opinion on the open source information and the current stage of Mk.1 , but based on your response above i did not see any credible information which could help me understand the optimism that a lot of people are showing on the prospects of AMCA.
Making an uninformed opinion is bound to be questioned so trying to hide behind the "right to make an opinion" is not going to help you especially when you put it in a public forum so either be prepared to defend it or don't post it. My response was based on your tall and high claims so that's why I asked my question in a way to evoke a response from you which would show me whether you have any knowledge about the issue or you are just posting for the sake of it and as I though unfortunately the reason is the latter one. I am no genius or have insider knowledge about the program but similarly like you I have gathered my knowledge about Indian aerospace industry by reading publicly available information. In case of AMCA the info is scarce and also misleading so that's why I don't go around giving verdict about a programme which I don't have proper knowledge about. What I know is that the best available minds are working behind the programme, they have created a technological base during the making of LCA which now they can use for further programmes as they wish to utilize. These two reasons are good enough for me to make me optimistic about AMCA. So till the design doesn't get fixed, till some official clarity or some authentic info from proper source doesn't come about AMCA, it would be only wise to be patient and watch how the programme shapes up instead of passing gratuitous remaks about it.

dhiraj wrote:Can you share any information for the reason of this optimism so that i have a better understanding of the things.


Not about AMCA but definitely a peek into the tech base which will go into making the AMCA.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2 ... 011%20.pdf

dhiraj wrote:BTW regarding AESA, Engine i did not mean buying them from abroad, that we are already doing , i suggested being self-sufficient in such tech to meet any of our requirements.
There is nothing new that you have "suggested" so I don't know why you feel that people need to be "suggested" on what has to be done to make a 5th gen plane.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

indranilroy.. okay thanks. I found your other news break too. btw, the link to HAL tender notice mostly deals with alloy plates and fuel valves. not sure, how you did you manage the chai-wala break dance against livefist guy? kudos btw.

checking out the pdf, i see the g ratings for the fuel valve max needed is 7.2. [pg 10/10-annexure1(techspec).pdf
--

sagar g, that is an awesome info on RCS data on LCA airframe. thanks for that doc.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:2. However, the situation is very different on the radar front. I think you missed the interview by Dr. Saraswat. We have the AESA antenna from the CABS AEW&CS. They designed it in a modular way and of course they tested it. So a smaller antenna can be easily made from that.
The AEW&CS AESA is a C S band and isn't X band the one used in fighter aircraft AESA radar ??? IIRC Astra Microwave is involved with DRDO in developing the X band T/R modules.
indranilroy wrote:We already have the backend of the radar even in the MMR which is going on to the Mk1 today.
We have the antenna and the backend is of Israeli origin, isn't it ???
Last edited by Sagar G on 26 Nov 2012 23:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

SaiK wrote:sagar g, that is an awesome info on RCS data on LCA airframe. thanks for that doc.
Please no thanks saaar me nanha trainee mujahid onlee :mrgreen:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

dhiraj wrote:
indranilroy wrote:You started of questioning how cutting edge AMCA is going to be. Now you are changing the subject to how indigenous is it going to be. Stick to one point and then probably somebody can answer you.
Sir , a couple of things :
1. it was mentioned that LCA Mk2 and AMCA will have 5th gen tech and the timeline mentioned where for Mk.2 around 2017 and for AMCA 2020-22 (if i am not wrong). Great. Now the question is what are the critical tech for a 5th gen. My understanding is AESA, Engine, Avionics, RAM etc.
2. Now to have complete independence on the product developed we need the AESA and Engine tech, right ? Either we get these tech as part of Rafale or PAK-Fa deal then fine or we need to develop the tech. No issues with either option until we have the tech which can be adapted/enhanced to meet our requirements for AMCA and future products
First and foremost: No 'sir', no 'ji' for me please :-)

I think you missed my post on the radar, engines and weapons. If you have a specific question of avionics, please do ask. I am pretty sure Karan M or some enlightened soul can give you more details.

We have been using RAM since Su-30s. LCAs have RAM coating as well. (I am not sure. But if my memory is serving me right, they are indigenously developed) LSP 6 is supposed to have an experimental RAM coating for lowering RCS.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

http://thedefencejournal.blogspot.com/2 ... ility.html

I think the C-band is only for IFF and other things.

per the link, it is S-band.
The S band (E-F band) active electronically scanned array radar should have a range of 250-375 km (155-230 miles) with 240 degrees of coverage. India will also supply the self protection system and communication systems and datalink.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

^^^ Thank you for the clarification saar but still will a S band AESA radar be converted into a fighter aircraft AESA radar ???
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:it would be only wise to be patient and watch how the programme shapes up instead of passing gratuitous remaks about it.
Sir , point taken, no issues. One does not need to take my post in a negative sense, one is free to counter my opinion with any facts which he may be aware of
Would love to see the Mk.2 and AMCA chasing down J 20/31 or for that matter F 35.
But with the technological base created so far as part of Mk.1 , I am still doubtful. Sorry can't help
Wishing you are right and we have Mk.2 inducted by 2018 and AMCA flying by 2022
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by karan_mc »

i Think we should wait for that Iaf live firing exercise and there is also having Aero India next year we will be getting tonnes of information and may be even some pictures of bare air frame of Tejas mk-2
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by aditya.agd »

when will we see Tejas inducted ..... maybe when the 4.5th generation is obsolete !!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:2. However, the situation is very different on the radar front. I think you missed the interview by Dr. Saraswat. We have the AESA antenna from the CABS AEW&CS. They designed it in a modular way and of course they tested it. So a smaller antenna can be easily made from that.
The AEW&CS AESA is a C S band and isn't X band the one used in fighter aircraft AESA radar ??? IIRC Astra Microwave is involved with DRDO in developing the X band T/R modules.
indranilroy wrote:We already have the backend of the radar even in the MMR which is going on to the Mk1 today.
We have the antenna and the backend is of Israeli origin, isn't it ???
Thank you. I stand corrected on both grounds.

I got confused with what Dr. Saraswat had said. He actually said:
1. At LRDE, they have already built a 1/8th size X-band array. They are going to scale this 1/8th size array to the actual size of LCA's radar.
2. The Tr modules are made in India.


From 3:12 to 4:55.

Also I was wrong about the MMR radar presently on Mk1. You are right, the backend is from Israel and the rest is from us.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Wah Wah thanks Ajai Shukla Ji Jai ho.... looks to show how much importance the ADA gives to safety and yes even if one life is saved because of this it is worth, these programs may fail or succeed but one life lost can never be replaced. Till date i still feel bad about the stuff that we read in the Saras crash report, no one can take a Suranjan Das crash or another "goose" kind of incident. WE just hope the IAF understands this and remains patient. Hopefully we have fixed a number of things while on ground which Dr.Saraswat has hinted at
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Kudos to Ajai Shukla.

Surya, it is the new helmet which caused the problem. I think it is a legitimate reason for grounding.

But I wonder what is meant by new.
1. Are they being introduced now. Will keep an eye out?
2. Or was this a problem with the DASH helmets. In that case, this was a horrible safety breach. Thank God, that nothing untoward happened in between.

Also, it is a coincidence that we were discussing LCA's through canopy ejection system in the last week of May and first week of June on this very thread. We should stop discussing LCA's systems for speedy induction :P.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeWelch »

if indeed these are 'new' helmets, could they not have continued with 'old' helmets?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

sankum wrote:After three months on ground, combat aircraft Tejas resumes test flight

The Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which clears a fighter for combat operations, was scheduled for end-2012. This could be delayed by at least two years. An upbeat Saraswat says the three-month delay gave ADA an opportunity to resolve several other problems, which needed to be done on the ground.

“We have made use of this time by solving many of the problems which were part of the feedback that came from the flight test programme. I feel by middle of next year we should complete (the IOC),” said Saraswat.
he means the FOC?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeWelch »

SaiK wrote:
sankum wrote:The Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which clears a fighter for combat operations, was scheduled for end-2012. This could be delayed by at least two years.

. . .

I feel by middle of next year we should complete (the IOC),” said Saraswat.
he means the FOC?
I don't think so.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

GeorgeWelch wrote:if indeed these are 'new' helmets, could they not have continued with 'old' helmets?
May be they are going to do A2A weapons testing now ;-)
SaiK wrote:
sankum wrote:After three months on ground, combat aircraft Tejas resumes test flight

The Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which clears a fighter for combat operations, was scheduled for end-2012. This could be delayed by at least two years. An upbeat Saraswat says the three-month delay gave ADA an opportunity to resolve several other problems, which needed to be done on the ground.

“We have made use of this time by solving many of the problems which were part of the feedback that came from the flight test programme. I feel by middle of next year we should complete (the IOC),” said Saraswat.
he means the FOC?
No, he means IOC :-).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sankum »

ADA website updated


LCA-Tejas has completed 1944 Test Flights Successfully. (22-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-106,LSP7-5,NP1-4)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1941 Test Flights Successfully. (12-July-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-237,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-105,LSP7-4,NP1-4)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the DRDO agency that oversees the Tejas programme, has now provided a backup mechanism to blow off the canopy before the pilot’s head struck it
Ok. Now that the through the canopy ejection has been discarded in favor of blowing off the canopy, maybe it is time to go for a bow less, a all glass canopy for Shakina effects and latest teknalejee look and feel!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

I would be surprised to find out that they are changing the ejection system. It would take more than 3 months to do that, I presume. Probably, they are going to add a longer shark tooth on the top of the seat or something like that.
We have modified the Martin Baker ejection seats, making these more reliable and giving more confidence to our pilots.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nash »

old helmet was DASH ..what about the new one,is it a upgraded version of DASH or one from DESH(samtel).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Old helmet was non DASH.
DASH is the new helmet and MB seat/LCA 'pit wasnt designed for it.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by karan_mc »

SaiK wrote:
sankum wrote:After three months on ground, combat aircraft Tejas resumes test flight

The Final Operational Clearance (FOC), which clears a fighter for combat operations, was scheduled for end-2012. This could be delayed by at least two years. An upbeat Saraswat says the three-month delay gave ADA an opportunity to resolve several other problems, which needed to be done on the ground.

“We have made use of this time by solving many of the problems which were part of the feedback that came from the flight test programme. I feel by middle of next year we should complete (the IOC),” said Saraswat.
he means the FOC?
FOC has been pushed back to 2015 if i am not wrong . DRDO should conduct some kind of pooja or something on Tejas , first Fuel leak problem delayed , then heavy monsoon and now Helmet and modification to ejection seat delay , from time (IOC-1 Jan 2011) , Program is seeing hell lot of problems and delays , its time to pray to all mighty :(( :((
Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Whats with all the whining? Do you think other nations didnt face such challenges?

If so, that just confirms how for all the talk you IDRW folk make of supporting the Tejas, you lot are amongst the most negative on the program and have contributed far too much disinformation regarding the program. IDRW articles being a perfect example.

The manner in which IDRW folks complain, one would think this was a short lifecycle, easily designed, consumer product. Did you seriously think this program was going to be a walk in the park? India is making a 4G+ aircraft starting from scratch, its last program from which nothing was inherited for the LCA, was in the late 60's to early 70's!

These problems are common to any highly complex program and can occur anytime. The issue is whether the LCA team can face them and solve them. That is being done.

So stop worrying about some puja doing a miracle and realize this is a slog. And a path Indian developers have to walk for since they don't have an existing product to leverage off of!!

And kindly have IDRW not come up with another ridiculous gripe about the LCA since they cant seem to understand what a program of this scale faces! And the determination that exists to see this through.

If you guys don't understand the last bit, then you really don't get the LCA program itself!
Last edited by Karan M on 27 Nov 2012 10:46, edited 1 time in total.
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