China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
Don
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 09 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Don »

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-379465/
China launches likely reconnaissance satellite constellation


By: Zach Rosenberg Washington DC

07:29 26 Nov 2012

China has launched what is likely a new constellation of reconnaissance satellites for the Ministry of Defence.

The launch of the Long March 4C vehicle took place on 25 November from the Jiuquan launch facility in north-central China. The three payloads, Yaogan 16A, -B and -C, officially consist of one large and two small earth imaging satellites. Western experts believe that the three are actually reconnaissance satellites - the large one an electronic intelligence (ELINT) satellite, and two smaller radar and optical satellites.

The US Air Force, which tracks objects in orbit, described orbital characteristics virtually identical to those of a of three Yaogan satellites launched in 2009, believed to comprise a similar, complementary reconnaissance constellation. The orbital characteristics and three-satellite constellation are similar to a now-defunct US system called Naval Ocean Surveillance Satellite (NOSS), used to detect and examine ships at sea.

The main satellite was built by China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp (CAST) and is believed to have been built around the CAST 2000 bus design, as are its predecessors.
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

Chinese paper congratulates Kim Jong Un on being named ‘Sexiest Man Alive’ by the Onion

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/kim ... 36602.html

lolz...
In a hilarious if increasingly common example of a real newspaper taking a satirical newspaper seriously, the People's Daily—the website for the Communist Party of China's newspaper—published a story on Tuesday congratulating North Korean leader Kim Jong Un on being named 2012's "Sexiest Man Alive" by the Onion.
"U.S. website The Onion has named North Korean supreme leader Kim Jong Un as the 'Sexiest Man Alive' for the year 2012," the story announces before quoting the Onion's sarcastic write-up:
"With his devastatingly handsome, round face, his boyish charm, and his strong, sturdy frame, this Pyongyang-bred heartthrob is every woman's dream come true. Blessed with an air of power that masks an unmistakable cute, cuddly side, Kim made this newspaper's editorial board swoon with his impeccable fashion sense, chic short hairstyle, and, of course, that famous smile," it said.
"He has that rare ability to somehow be completely adorable and completely macho at the same time," said Marissa Blake-Zweiber, editor of the Onion Style and Entertainment.
The accompanying 55-page slideshow includes images of Kim in varying degrees of sexiness—riding a horse, posing with military leaders, aiming a rifle, riding a horse and, uh, riding a horse.
Of course, this isn't the first time the Onion's sarcasm has been lost in translation.
In 2002, the Beijing Evening News picked up an Onion story asserting the U.S. Congress would leave Washington "unless a new Capitol is built."
In September 2011, Capitol Police in Washington were forced to investigate after the Onion's Twitter feed teased a satirical article—"Congress Takes Group of Schoolchildren Hostage"—with a series of tweets proclaiming breaking news of a hostage situation inside the Capitol building.
A month later, the Onion caused real confusion when it published a satirical story—"Study Finds Every Style of Parenting Produces Disturbed, Miserable Adults"—that cited the California Parenting Institute in its findings.
The real institute was soon deluged with emails and phone calls from concerned residents.
And in September, Iranian news agency Fars plagiarized an Onion story that claimed an "overwhelming majority of rural white Americans" would prefer Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over President Barack Obama.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

From what I can see China has a grand total of 0 planes they have designed in-house. Even their Z series attack helos are ripoffs.

That they have made all that work (if they actually do to the extent we think they do), great.

But, the next gen is going to be a problem. All their national heroes who designed these machines will pop off and without any fundamental research all they will have is hot air and national pride to deal with.

If China is unable to get all the territories she claims is hers before these techs become obsolete then this house of cards will collapse.
Selamat Pagi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 05 Apr 2011 09:53

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Selamat Pagi »

Copying is nothing new.

Image

Image

Image
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

NRao wrote:From what I can see China has a grand total of 0 planes they have designed in-house. Even their Z series attack helos are ripoffs.

That they have made all that work (if they actually do to the extent we think they do), great.

But, the next gen is going to be a problem. All their national heroes who designed these machines will pop off and without any fundamental research all they will have is hot air and national pride to deal with.

If China is unable to get all the territories she claims is hers before these techs become obsolete then this house of cards will collapse.
They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

they have a industrial scale espionage operation going using both people and e-means. the fact they were able to steal nuclear weapons data and JSF details via e-means and get a northrop engineer to sell stuff on how to shield cruise missile exhausts indicates its a sustainable 'model' even for next gen kit atleast to some extent.
if it saves them 25% of the hard work and narrows down the potential choices to those already made working by others, they will take it and develop or clone the remainder 75%.

ofcourse there is knowledge that even if stolen isnt of much use unless you have the industrial infra to exploit it. suppose we got the blueprints and entire process to make blisks , we are not in a position immediately to manufacture 1000s of reliable aero blisks. and even if you do, you might not have the insights and data banks to resolve problems easily....the continuing problems with the WS10 is a sign of that. and without fixing it properly first, due to timelines they are forced to start on the WS16 or whatever is supposed to power the j20 eventually.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote:
They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...
It is fine to crib as long as it does not come with a recommendation that some Indian or other should get a kick up his backside because the Chinese copy so well.
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:
They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...
It is fine to crib as long as it does not come with a recommendation that some Indian or other should get a kick up his backside because the Chinese copy so well.
I will rather have copy as 60%-70% original product rather than having nothing on table.. whether the urge to do that is translated in the form of a kick on the backside or not is immaterial
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote:
I will rather have copy as 60%-70% original product rather than having nothing on table.. whether the urge to do that is translated in the form of a kick on the backside or not is immaterial
You did not appear to think it was immaterial a few days ago when you said this. I hope you have started with your recommendation
Prithwiraj wrote:Congratulations China---- great achievement at an incredible pace......

down with skeptics who are spending time in analyzing the angle of shadow and possible photo-shopping...

as someone pointed out from time to time .. we need kick in our butt to move on ... hopefully these kicks are potent enough....


And for people who are crying foul on others praising Chinese effort.... --- Grow up...
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:
I will rather have copy as 60%-70% original product rather than having nothing on table.. whether the urge to do that is translated in the form of a kick on the backside or not is immaterial
You did not appear to think it was immaterial a few days ago when you said this. I hope you have started with your recommendation
Prithwiraj wrote:Congratulations China---- great achievement at an incredible pace......

down with skeptics who are spending time in analyzing the angle of shadow and possible photo-shopping...

as someone pointed out from time to time .. we need kick in our butt to move on ... hopefully these kicks are potent enough....


And for people who are crying foul on others praising Chinese effort.... --- Grow up...

yes kick in the butt is metaphorical.. I hope you get that.. otherwise why do you think Govt. India suddenly started building resources in NE? Is that not kick in the butt what it is? Why do you think we upgraded our security apparatus after 26-11..? it is a massive kick in the butt... what is wrong in having a kick in the butt for some greater good in future? we all get kick in the butt in various phases of our life.. sometimes to beat the neighbours son in math... or to eventually get back in shape and hit the gym... .. Kick in the butt is awesome...we all should get one from time to time...
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote: what is wrong in having a kick in the butt for some greater good in future? we all get kick in the butt in various phases of our life.. sometimes to beat the neighbours son in math... or to eventually get back in shape and hit the gym... .. Kick in the butt is awesome...we all should get one from time to time...
I thought we should be giving the Chinese a kick in the butt . Not Indians. And here you are stoutly defending your idiotic recommendation. I disagree with you and will keep making an issue of it every time someone says that Indians should be punished when someone else does something.

If you think Indians should be kicked as part of a lesson, I think you too should understand how criticism and metaphorical kicks feel. Your thrashing about and squirming here as you ski downhill is an exact illustration of how people react to being kicked for no reason just because someone thinks they should be kicked.
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote: what is wrong in having a kick in the butt for some greater good in future? we all get kick in the butt in various phases of our life.. sometimes to beat the neighbours son in math... or to eventually get back in shape and hit the gym... .. Kick in the butt is awesome...we all should get one from time to time...
I thought we should be giving the Chinese a kick in the butt . Not Indians. And here you are stoutly defending your idiotic recommendation. I disagree with you and will keep making an issue of it every time someone says that Indians should be punished when someone else does something.

If you think Indians should be kicked as part of a lesson, I think you too should understand how criticism and metaphorical kicks feel. Your thrashing about and squirming here as you ski downhill is an exact illustration of how people react to being kicked for no reason just because someone thinks they should be kicked.
Everyone has an opinion.. and that's the best part of being Indian unlike Chinese.. by continuously mocking and bullying others who don't agree to your opinion you are indirectly walking the Chinese path. I hope you get that. I rest my case here. Oh by the way kicking in the butt is not equivalent of punishment. It is strange despite having such incredible respect and experience you seem not to get such a simple metaphor
sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 348
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by sarabpal.s »

Yo china Another top class air craft bite the dust in Venezuela Air Show :oops:
http://en.rian.ru/world/20121128/177786487.html
MEXICO, November 28 (RIA Novosti) - A training plane crashed during an air show in Venezuela on Tuesday, and a military helicopter went down during a rescue mission, Mexican media said on Wednesday.
A Chinese-made K8 training plane fell near the Libertador Air Base during an air show to mark the Air Force day in the central Venezuelan state of Aragua.
Technical malfunction is seen as the main cause for the K8 crash
member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_23370 »

Not surprising. Egyptian pilots have never minced there words on the poor quality and low reliability of k-8.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Prithwiraj wrote: Everyone has an opinion.. and that's the best part of being Indian unlike Chinese.. by continuously mocking and bullying others who don't agree to your opinion you are indirectly walking the Chinese path. I hope you get that. I rest my case here.
No need to get upset. I may walk the Chinese path, but I am not the one calling for Indian butts to be kicked. You are. My words pointing out the utter ludicrousness of your viewpoint are no more harmful than your metaphorical butt kicking of Indians every time the Chinese do something that you greatly admire. Not sure why you should get all worked up with what you call my "bullying" while you imagine that your own suggestion that some Indians should have their butts kicked just because there is good news for you from China is a useful and positive one. It is neither useful nor positive. Merely silly. Indian butts must not be kicked just because the Chinese achieve something. I believe you need to learn that. My case will rest after that.
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by wong »

Selamat Pagi wrote:Copying is nothing new.

Image
Let me continue the photo essay...

1956 Type 56

Image

1981 Type 81

Image

1995 Type 95
Image

2005 Type 05

Image


Yes, Indians invented ZERO, but so did the extinct Mayans. Meanwhile China invented... Never mind. I don't have all day.

Okay, I'll do one.

1350 Type 50

Image
Last edited by wong on 28 Nov 2012 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote: Everyone has an opinion.. and that's the best part of being Indian unlike Chinese.. by continuously mocking and bullying others who don't agree to your opinion you are indirectly walking the Chinese path. I hope you get that. I rest my case here.
No need to get upset. I may walk the Chinese path, but I am not the one calling for Indian butts to be kicked. You are. My words pointing out the utter ludicrousness of your viewpoint are no more harmful than your metaphorical butt kicking of Indians every time the Chinese do something that you greatly admire. Not sure why you should get all worked up with what you call my "bullying" while you imagine that your own suggestion that some Indians should have their butts kicked just because there is good news for you from China is a useful and positive one. It is neither useful nor positive. Merely silly. Indian butts must not be kicked just because the Chinese achieve something. I believe you need to learn that. My case will rest after that.
very good..
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...
1) I have not cribbed. In fact I have called it a relative achievement. AND given reasons why I say so
2) I have not seen any reasons from you nor any of the Chinese posters, as to why China's efforts in the air craft arena are great (NOT relative to where they were but as an industrial and a strategic asset)


3) What will China do if and when Japan, Malaysia, Philippine, Vietnam, etc acquire real 5th gen air crafts? Real high quality subs? And are ready to go to war combined? May be you and the Chinese posters know more than I do, but from what I can see both of you are taking a very, very short term view of the situation. Which is fine - acceptable. But not to me. There are other events occurring which will bottle up Chinese strategic efforts - which have to rely on such machines.
4) Who is going to replace my cut-paste who died recently? Can these replacements "design" the next J-15? (You cannot hear me laugh, but I am.) Even to design a copied plane it took them years, what with a brand new REAL design?

BTW, China media claims the J15 will take another 2-3 years to become operational and the carrier it lands on another 5-6.Best of luck. More like 10-15 I would say.

Give me thoughts you have, reasons you may have. Some thing I can hang my hat on.

In spite of that if you and China are happy with copying so be it. I for one will sleep well - as I have always said.

I am FAR more impressed with their space program. Their sats - as far as I cna tell - are great. Rockets - great. And they can sustain those efforts with proper funding.

Planes, Meh. Going back to sleep.
member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_22539 »

^^I didn't know all Chinese guns were copied. Now I am wondering if Chinese women also get to enjoy copied guns.
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20067 »

NRao wrote:
They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...
1) I have not cribbed. In fact I have called it a relative achievement. AND given reasons why I say so
2) I have not seen any reasons from you nor any of the Chinese posters, as to why China's efforts in the air craft arena are great (NOT relative to where they were but as an industrial and a strategic asset)


3) What will China do if and when Japan, Malaysia, Philippine, Vietnam, etc acquire real 5th gen air crafts? Real high quality subs? And are ready to go to war combined? May be you and the Chinese posters know more than I do, but from what I can see both of you are taking a very, very short term view of the situation. Which is fine - acceptable. But not to me. There are other events occurring which will bottle up Chinese strategic efforts - which have to rely on such machines.
4) Who is going to replace my cut-paste who died recently? Can these replacements "design" the next J-15? (You cannot hear me laugh, but I am.) Even to design a copied plane it took them years, what with a brand new REAL design?

BTW, China media claims the J15 will take another 2-3 years to become operational and the carrier it lands on another 5-6.Best of luck. More like 10-15 I would say.

Give me thoughts you have, reasons you may have. Some thing I can hang my hat on.

In spite of that if you and China are happy with copying so be it. I for one will sleep well - as I have always said.

I am FAR more impressed with their space program. Their sats - as far as I cna tell - are great. Rockets - great. And they can sustain those efforts with proper funding.

Planes, Meh. Going back to sleep.
For me this is really not a dispute on whether China is great in fundamental research and innovation. I never said that. It is about their systematic regime of stealing IP from others and putting it into use at all aspects of their nation may be more in Military and Space. For that matter no weapon systems is credible unless it is battle proven. The hypothetical scenario of Asean countries receiving 5th Generation fighters in near future is as far fetched as idea of J-20 being active anytime soon. It is really all up there with so many variables. I and some other posters expressed admiration for the Chinese to get along with a program and execute the same at break neck speed and so far it seems to be holding up well. The "kick in the butt" comment was seriously around expediting long delayed programs for reasons which are constrain agnostics like Environment Babus sitting on NE files for a long time...

And what is this tendency of clubbing Indians who are a little impressed with what China has done and Chinese in general. Don't you think it is a little juvenile? I am not one of the freaked out leftist from West Bengal who still thinks Chinese People Party Chairman is his chairman.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

Is the soldier below holding a gun or a body shield?
Image
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by wong »

^^^^
Airburst weapons are all that size.
Although two INSAS would probably work as shock plates. Not much else you can do with them.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

wong wrote:^^^^
Airburst weapons are all that size.
Although two INSAS would probably work as shock plates. Not much else you can do with them.
In fact INSAS designed not to burst. Why are the Chinese designing weapons that burst? For export? To Pakistan? (I hope) :D

I saw this hilarious video of Chinese soldiers passing around a bomb that was going to explode. Maybe this bursting gun is something like that eh? Never know when it's going to burst in the air?
wong
BRFite
Posts: 382
Joined: 27 May 2011 19:21

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by wong »

^^^^

Go to www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by shiv »

wong wrote:^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.
Gosh you really were provoked by that weren't you? You want to prove that Chinese arms are good and so you say that the Americans are saying they are good so they must be good. You mean what the Americans say about Chinese stuff is honest and right? OK let me remember that and get back to you. :lol:

Lots of cheap stuff on gunbroker. Cheap and China have a lot in common. I will show you a picture of 15,000 Chinese AK 47s obtained for free from your tallest and deepest friends the Pakistanis as they surrendered in India. They are that cheap.
Harshad
BRFite
Posts: 113
Joined: 31 Jul 2005 01:05

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Harshad »

wong wrote:^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.
There are also more chinese restaurants in the USA (obesity Capital of the world) than Indian restaurants.

There are more Chinese items in a Walmart.

These are meaningless comparisons.
kish
BRFite
Posts: 960
Joined: 07 Jun 2010 23:53

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by kish »

shiv wrote:
wong wrote:^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.
Gosh you really were provoked by that weren't you? You want to prove that Chinese arms are good and so you say that the Americans are saying they are good so they must be good. You mean what the Americans say about Chinese stuff is honest and right? OK let me remember that and get back to you. :lol:

Lots of cheap stuff on gunbroker. Cheap and China have a lot in common. I will show you a picture of 15,000 Chinese AK 47s obtained for free from your tallest and deepest friends the Pakistanis as they surrendered in India. They are that cheap.
Shiv ji,

Americans also said 'kim jong un' is the sexiest man alive :lol: . Guess what, The Chinese believed it. :rotfl:

No. Don't question Chinese IQ. Don't even think about it! :mrgreen:
Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Katare »

Contrary to belief of many, copying is actually a legal and well practiced competitive method used by all manufacturer and designers. By law anything that you think, you invented and want others to not copy, you must "disclose" that information in a patent application in each country where you want that information protected. The burden of protecting information/invention lies on the inventor. Everything else that you didn't protect/patent becomes available to all, to do what they want with it. In the case of Chinese copying Russian imports, to me it means either Russians didn't put meaningful and enforceable IP obligations in place or they really don't care about it or they consider it as cost of doing business with China.

Information obtained with espionage is again a legal states craft and if Chinese are getting useful design/test data via this route, it is an achievement not a crime (legal or moral)


In civilian commercial world as soon as a new model of any product is launched, it is bought and ripped apart by all other competitors to learn and use what ever is new in that product. This holds true for all products cars, phones, electronics, Guns, plastics or chemicals. I myself ripped a brand new Galaxy and Iphone 5 to pieces last week for similar purpose. I had to break it to get to the parts I needed to look at and compare with our technology.

With that said, it's almost as hard to reverse engineer or copy a competitors product as to develop a new one. If reverse engineering was so easy every country would be building Honda accord, Camery and Intel Pentium/Icore chips. With lots of experience and advance industrial base one can make a poor copy, with some efforts but it's likely that it'll have poorer performance, reliability and higher over all cost. No one reinvents all the wheels neither they should when the knowledge of making many of those wheels can be bought.
member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_20292 »

^^6 true. the cn are following their time tested philosophy of belling the cat whatever be its colour.

we've gotta produce to reach and match their hard numbers. design may or may not be copied..
hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4635
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by hnair »

Singha wrote:suppose we got the blueprints and entire process to make blisks , we are not in a position immediately to manufacture 1000s of reliable aero blisks. and even if you do, you might not have the insights and data banks to resolve problems easily....the continuing problems with the WS10 is a sign of that. and without fixing it properly first, due to timelines they are forced to start on the WS16 or whatever is supposed to power the j20 eventually.
Yes we can! If there is a credible threat to be dealt with, we ask the best in the world for consultancy in both design and manufacturing, as is happening with Indian aero-engine programs (both the large and small ones). We agree to pay good money for that and is as transparent as it gets. We had design bureaus getting constant training and entire plants setup by such consultants for cutting-edge offensive weapon areas (from cargo shells to ATV) in which we had issues in the past. In fact all these program issues (conceptual and manufacturing) will be published threadbare in Indian/world media, open tenders called, decisions made in double-time (whomever be the current govt) etc. Some of the conditions for such consultancy include getting operational data from their own forces that operate the equipment, as well as being there to trouble shoot during hot-times.

Plus as NRao-saar has been trying to point out, even if you have a thousand blisks/day capacity, you need a giant system, that assembles it during wartime and maintains these thousands on the frontier. But war too has evolved. As Prez Obama derisively put down Romney in a debate about "We have lesser number of horses and muskets too", things are different since WWII era khanland assembly lines. With modern day shorter duration air-ground campaigns, it is more about inventory/stockpile management, than production lines etc. Khan is boss because of all these pieces that come together in a magical (money) fashion.

But China has none of the above consultancy advantages in military systems areas, due to their "adopt without asking" system and even among the chinese policy makers, some of them don't seem to like this isolation. Hence the constant pressure by one CPC faction (realists) on EU to lift embargo, so they can toss away the crap produced by the dick-head faction (people who convince the jock faction that stealing is better for budgets) for parades and shows.
Katare wrote:Contrary to belief of many, copying is actually a legal and well practiced competitive method used by all manufacturer and designers.
Copying in a legal way can be done by license production. eg: Ford was licensing Toyota's hybrid drive-train, till they got their act together.

But here a government news agency getting pissed over Russians saying "WTF?" about a design seems to be the point that we diverge from the chinese.
Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Katare »

Licensing is for manufacturing of patented (or highly complex) products or processes. Copying is for developing competitive products inhouse, no licenses are needed if it is not patented.

For example, Apple created a new market with Ipad and everyone just rushed in with their own version of tablets. Most competitors will copy and benchmark their products against the leading player. If a part of technology or design is patented/trademarked you would have to find a way around which usually not that hard. If a way can not be found that you go for licensing. if these companies come up with a tablet that is radically different than Ipad it'll not sell unless it creates a new market for that device. if that happens everyone else would rush in with their own versions of the new design.
Brando
BRFite
Posts: 675
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 06:18

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Brando »

wong wrote:^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.
Please stop embarrassing yourself - this is getting ludicrous.

Mods: Why is this troll allowed to stalk these boards with this asinine drivel ??
Selamat Pagi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 05 Apr 2011 09:53

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Selamat Pagi »

Everybody copies. Especially the Koreans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm9_BjSoSg4
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by NRao »

All defense related efforts are dictated by political direction and urgency (exceptions are when vendors invest on their own and then turn around and sell).

So, from that particular perspective, all this discussion about copyright, IP (Sino-Ruso?), etc will not pass muster. Cannot.

The Chinese cut-paste is a political decision. The Indian thinking is also a political decision (leading to frustration posts on BR!!!).

Just that as I am finding out that the Chinese are ridiculous. Will post some stats l8r.
member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_23370 »

LoL see how much the pakis want made in china stuff. The last batch of chinese made locomotives is rusting and defunct now.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... tives-deal
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Singha »

and inspite of that indian railways wants to talk to Cheen for HSR :rotfl:

all it means is "top officials" want some nice "study trips" to shanghai and tianjin to admire the bullet trains at cheen expense/indian taxpayer expense. they have been known to visit even Chile to understand wine making and new zealand for sheep rearing ToT :oops:
ashi
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 19 Feb 2009 13:30

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ashi »

Reverse engineering which many of you call copy and paste, or buy/beg foreign techs/products and got screwed multiple times, which is better? :-)
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12062
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

A little bit of old news from 3 days back) from Nightline on Chinese Carrier. Nightwatch people are not very impressed, FWIW.
NightWatch For the night of 25 November 2012 wrote: ...
China: The Peoples' Liberation Army Navy performed the first landing and takeoff of a carrier-capable fighter jet on its new aircraft carrier, Liaoning. The Chinese released a short video of the maiden landing on the aircraft carrier by a Chinese-made J-15 fighter, according to the defense ministry on 25 November. The actual dates of the landing and the takeoff have not been posted.

The Russian-built ski-jump carrier, renamed Liaoning, went into Chinese naval service in September. "The successful landing... has always been seen as a symbol of the operating combat capability for an aircraft carrier," Zhang Junshe, a vice director at the Naval Affairs Research Institute, told state television. "This is a landmark event for China's aircraft carrier... and (moves it) one step closer to combat readiness."

Vice-Admiral Zhang Yongyi, the commander-in-chief in charge of the tests and training program told state media, "It's like 'dancing on a knifepoint' as the aircraft have to land on a very limited space. We have done all these test flights from the very beginning, and finally we mastered the key skills for the landing of carrier-borne aircraft," he added.

Comment: Just as the carrier Liaoning is Russian-designed and -manufactured, the J-15 fighter is a Chinese knock-off of Russia's carrier-capable Sukoi 33 and is powered by Russian engines. The Chinese have shown no ability to design, engineer and manufacture these capabilities. They have shown that they can refurbish a carrier built by some other nation and that they have one trained and capable pilot :P .

The Chinese carrier is still several years from full operational capability, but it is already an international attraction. It is a show piece and the flagship of Chinese great power aspirations, rather than capabilities. This light carrier is too-expensive-to-risk for China because it is the only realistic training platform China possesses to help build its future three-carrier fleet.

The important take away is that the present limited capability is built on Soviet technology that China bought or stole. China has yet to prove it has the industrial capabilities to build an aircraft carrier and its air group without stealing from other countries.
PS: Just saw Shiv ji's response to poster wong. For fun, here is the exchange (to be read along with the above) :)
shiv wrote:
wong wrote: Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.
Gosh you really were provoked by that weren't you? You want to prove that Chinese arms are good and so you say that the Americans are saying they are good so they must be good.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 29 Nov 2012 09:49, edited 1 time in total.
member_23370
BRFite
Posts: 1103
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by member_23370 »

"when China begins to innovate genuinely higher quality items"

Never going to happen. Don't have the ability or capability
ashi
BRFite
Posts: 456
Joined: 19 Feb 2009 13:30

Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

Post by ashi »

Marten wrote:
ashi wrote:Reverse engineering which many of you call copy and paste, or buy/beg foreign techs/products and got screwed multiple times, which is better? :-)
Which of these includes stealing IP? Or making functional copies that are as good as the original? Getting screwed is a relative term - isn't China still importing engines despite all the bluster and loud talk? See, the Russians are still laughing at you, pretty loudly, while they collect your cash. (And for contrast - although good sense is generally lost on you - we know how the Su MKI is revered). And despite all this false bravado, you still do not have trained and capable pilots. Too bad.

You know, the saddest part is that at some point, when China begins to innovate genuinely higher quality items, and another country "reverse engineers" these, your own tone would be different.
Yes we still import engines, but India still imports guns!
Post Reply