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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 05:17 
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Closely on the heels of Akash missile system's success, Indian planners took new interest in C-RAM system. One of the C-RAM system in development for US military is a seeker less missile like Akash. And Radar unit developed for Akash is again used in such role.

If we observe the reports, Indians expressed interest in Indian version of Iron Dome. I think the underlined part is important. While talking about the third layer of Ballistic Missile Defense, DRDO mentioned, they are meant to intercept rockets as well as Cruise missiles. Though Iron Dome can intercept rockets, only Daivd's Sling (Stunner) is projected to intercept Cruise missile.

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The third layer is planned to tackle low-flying cruise missiles, artillery projectiles and rockets in the line with the overall aim to achieve "near 100% kill or interception probability".

"Look what is happening in the Middle-East (Hamas firing rockets at Israeli cities before the recent ceasefire)...hence, protection against low-cost, very close range threats is also needed. We have begun some initial work on the third-tier. We will try to integrate it with the BMD system once it fructifies," said Saraswat.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... egis-bmd-3


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 06:36 
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Nov 17, 2010 :: Interview with Mr. Lova Drori, Executive Vice President, Rafael Advanced Defense Systems

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Lova Drori: We have lot of products that would interest Indian armed forces and we are talking to them about that, but we can't share more specific details about those products or programs. All I can share is that we are offering Iron Dome and David's Sling to the Indian armed forces.


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 11:08 
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akshat.kashyap wrote:


AAD goes ~15 km high ~70 km range at say 4.5 machs

Arrow 2 goes ~50 km high ~70 km range at say 9 machs

I suspect the interception trajectories will be significantly different in both cases.

The second phase even the endo-atmospheric missile is represented to be a hypersonic missile for the Indian BMD.


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 11:19 
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koti wrote:
MRSAM, will be used in a more area wide denial role rather then against LACM as these mostly will be terrain hugging and in numbers making longer range interception very hard.


MRSAM can clearly take on a CM role...it was chosen over the larger, more expensive AAD partly for that very reason...as it was more cost effective, and more optimized for such a role.

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I don't see any progress in SPYDER or Maitri in public media, however my interest in David's sling is its relevance compared to Iron dome.


GOI is too busy splurging on cash transfers for the next election. Paying MBDA for TOT/an expensive JV...not a priority.

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Agreed. But Iron Dome IMO is only suitable for low intensity artillery defense as IDF deals with. With a battery of 20x3 missiles it can at its max knock down 60 shells before it itself might be targeted or it runs our of steam. And if any border city is under shelling, we can expect 60 shells coming in every other minute(Not in the case of IDF) and this will saturate the system pretty easily.


Increase the batteries.


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 18:28 
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there is no dearth of money in india ., only priorities are different .. btw didn't china s top aircraft designer die after the successful aircraft landings in the carrier .. he was too stressed out from work .. it ll never happen IN India !


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 19:19 
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kit wrote:
there is no dearth of money in india ., only priorities are different .. btw didn't china s top aircraft designer die after the successful aircraft landings in the carrier .. he was too stressed out from work .. it ll never happen IN India !


And it need not happen! Do you mean that the designer has to be sacrificed every time a project is a success?


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 20:31 
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What was the stress the chinese designer faced? Translating from Russian to Mandarin?


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 21:45 
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kit wrote:
btw didn't china s top aircraft designer die after the successful aircraft landings in the carrier .. he was too stressed out from work .. it ll never happen IN India !


Why is it necessary to curse something or someone in India while comparing with others?


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PostPosted: 27 Nov 2012 22:02 
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kit wrote:
there is no dearth of money in india ., only priorities are different .. btw didn't china s top aircraft designer die after the successful aircraft landings in the carrier .. he was too stressed out from work .. it ll never happen IN India !

What is your problem dude your statement is so nonsensical, you probably dont know how stress the guys in RCI & DRDL handle for every program. I have seen a couple of them go into real depression when the projects they worked for 3 years got cancelled for no technical or user reason


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 17:21 
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suryag wrote:
kit wrote:
there is no dearth of money in india ., only priorities are different .. btw didn't china s top aircraft designer die after the successful aircraft landings in the carrier .. he was too stressed out from work .. it ll never happen IN India !

What is your problem dude your statement is so nonsensical, you probably dont know how stress the guys in RCI & DRDL handle for every program. I have seen a couple of them go into real depression when the projects they worked for 3 years got cancelled for no technical or user reason

One of my relatives works in DRDL and for 8 months he did not get time to visit his home city.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 17:27 
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Bheeshma wrote:
What was the stress the chinese designer faced? Translating from Russian to Mandarin?


:rotfl: :twisted:


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 20:18 
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kit wrote:
there is no dearth of money in india ., only priorities are different .. btw didn't china s top aircraft designer die after the successful aircraft landings in the carrier .. he was too stressed out from work .. it ll never happen IN India !

:shock: Stressed out.. yeah sure why not... must have had an heart attack due too much of rice wine and ried noodles... stress indeed.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 20:28 
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Smoking, pork meat, fried rice, long hours, lack of proper rest and exercise....not good. Chinese tend to be heavy smokers..prolly far more than indians.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 23:14 
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K-15 test next month

After the successful trial of AD interceptor missile, DRDO is readying for the developmental trial of submarine- launched ballistic missile K-15 from an underwater platform off the Andhra Pradesh coast in the second week of December.

The much awaited test, scheduled for the last week of November, was postponed owing to inclement weather triggered by a deep depression in Bay of Bengal early this month. DRDO scientists are reportedly contemplating two trials of K-15, one from a pontoon (replica of a submarine) and another from a submarine.

Defence sources said the nuclear capable missile will be tested for the first time from a submarine positioned undersea off Visakhapatnam coast. If everything goes as planned, the missile will be fired any time between December 6 and 8.

The DRDO is eyeing for the successful trial of the missile as few countries have the triad of firing nuclear-tipped missiles from air, land and undersea. The other countries, which have the capability include Russia, the USA, France, Britain and China.

“Scientists are working over time and constantly cross-checking the system, including the launch platform. We want to achieve near-zero circular error probability (CEP) accuracy,” said a defence scientist.

The indigenously developed K-15 missile is about 10 metres in length and about a metre in diameter. Its launch weight is about 10 tonnes. This missile uses solid propellant and can carry a conventional payload of about 500 kg to one tonne and also be fitted with tactical nuclear warhead. After its induction, the missile will equip the country’s first nuclear-powered submarine ANS Arihant.

Reports said the K-series missile programme formally began in 2004 as PJ-08 as a tribute to the then DRDO chief and former President APJ Abdul Kalam. The solid-fuel missile had a modest 150-km range but over the years, the missile steadily grew to achieve its desired 700-km range.

“The hybrid K-15 combines aspects of both cruise and ballistic missiles, which use multiple-stage rockets to exit the atmosphere and re-enter in a parabolic trajectory. It flies in hypersonic speed. Launched underwater, the K-15 surges to the surface and is the world’s best weapon in this class,” the scientist said.

The K-15 is one of the most ambitious projects of the DRDO. After its successful induction, the DRDO would go for the developmental trials of its longer-range K-4 missile to strengthen its undersea attacks. Apart from the K-15, India has the submarine version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 23:27 
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INS chakra or INS arihant or kilo class?

I highly doubt if it would be kilo class because of missile length.

INS arihant is still going through sea-trial, so not sure, may be they go for weapon testing or may be not, is it possible?.

It have to be INS chakra, but don't know, is it allowed?


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 04:56 
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How can a VLS missile be launched from Chakra? I am not aware of any such provision on the Akulas. It has to be Arihant since kilos are too small.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 05:10 
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A Sharma wrote:
K-15 test next month

The hybrid K-15 combines aspects of both cruise and ballistic missiles, which use multiple-stage rockets to exit the atmosphere and re-enter in a parabolic trajectory. It flies in hypersonic speed. Launched underwater, the K-15 surges to the surface and is the world’s best weapon in this class,” the scientist said.

The K-15 is one of the most ambitious projects of the DRDO. After its successful induction, the DRDO would go for the developmental trials of its longer-range K-4 missile to strengthen its undersea attacks. Apart from the K-15, India has the submarine version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal.


This report is confusing and misleading.... I was not aware any submarine version of BrahMos. Plus hypersonic speed and world's best weapon in this class? The class is sub 700 km submarine launched missile capable of carrying strategic payloads... I think K-15 is unique in that regard...


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 05:20 
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nash wrote:
INS chakra or INS arihant or kilo class?

I highly doubt if it would be kilo class because of missile length.


Kilos do not have VLS.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 06:52 
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A Spike in Javelin's back... :-o
IMI Spike selected over Javelin


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 07:39 
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K15 launch would be from Arihant only. which is confusing because some reports claim its reactor not yet operational...without a operational power plant it surely cannot be towed like a floating pontoon to launch area and pushed underwater!


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 08:12 
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Prithwiraj wrote:
This report is confusing and misleading.... I was not aware any submarine version of BrahMos.
The report is confusing only in its statement that the submarine-launched BrahMos is already in the Navy's arsenal. This is not true. However, BrahMos chief Sivathanu Pillai has repeatedly talked about the submarine-launched version of BrahMos. The first under-water firing of the missile, from a submerged pontoon, was expected by end-2011. However, it is now expected by end of December, 2012. The submarine version of the missile is tipped to arm the Navy's next line of P75-I submarines.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 10:11 
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Not sure this was posted before or not

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/06/hypersonic/

Russia Preps Mach 7 Missiles — With India’s Help


Image

Quote:
Russia and India are already testing a new supersonic cruise missile, which is pretty cool, we guess. But going Mach 2 or thereabouts isn’t all that fast these days. Everything has to go faster. That’s why the two countries are also developing a hypersonic missile capable of traveling more than five times the speed of sound. Problem is even building the engines, let alone missiles, is extremely hard to do.

If it works, the missile — called the BrahMos 2 — is expected to travel up to Mach 7 from sea-, land- and air-launched platforms. And it’s supposed to be ready for flight tests in 2017, which is overly optimistic, at best. “I think we will need about 5 years to develop the first fully functional prototype,” Sivathanu Pillai, CEO of India-based BraHmos Aerospace said in Moscow on Wednesday. Pillai also suggested the missile already exists, and that BrahMos has conducted ”lab tests [of the missile] at the speed of 6.5 Mach.”

There’s little doubt India and Russia are pursuing hypersonic weapons technology, though it remains to be seen whether such an ambitious timescale as suggested for ‘Brahmos 2′ could be met,” Douglas Barrie, an air warfare expert for the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, writes in an e-mail to Danger Room. “The original Brahmos is basically a Russian missile, the NPO Mashinostroenia 3M-55 Onyx (NATO designation SS-N-26), so it will be interesting to see the extent to which Brahmos 2 might draw on previous Russian hypersonic research and development.”

For one, they’ll probably need to build a scramjet engine, which is still a long way from being anything but experimental. The concept, though, is surprisingly simple. As the missile — or whatever vehicle the scramjet is attached to — accelerates through the air, the engine begins to suck in oxygen. Stored fuel, such as hydrogen, is then mixed with the oxygen and burned before being accelerated and pumped out through a nozzle. This motion then speeds up the missile to hypersonic speeds. The catch: Getting it to work is really difficult.


There’s the sheer heat generated by traveling at such speeds. And getting a scramjet into missile-form is even harder. You’d need sophisticated guidance tools, sensors and navigation equipment to keep it in the air and to its target, while also making it small enough to launch from a conventional aircraft. And you still have to solve the propulsion problems.

Just ask the Pentagon. Its experimental pizza-shaped hypersonic weapon capsule, Falcon, failed its test in August before plunging into the Pacific Ocean. The Air Force’s scramjet — the X-51 WaveRider – has a better record, but was bruised by a test last summer when its engine failed. The Air Force is pressing on, however, with a new hypersonic missile for its stealth fighters. The Army’s Advanced Hypersonic Weapon has also been successfully tested, but it’s nowhere close to a deployable weapon.

“You ask the question, how hard is it? The answer is, it’s really hard,” says Mark Lewis, formerly the Air Force’s chief scientist. “It’s not a matter of simply taking a supersonic thing and flying it a little bit faster. The physics work against you, the temperatures get higher, everything really does get harder.”

Hypersonic and scramjet research in the United States also goes back to the early days of the Cold War. But it wasn’t until 1991 when Russia became the first country to successfully test a scramjet. More tests followed, and with the help of NASA, Russia successfully flew a hydrogen-fueled scramjet at up to Mach 6.4 over Kazakhstan in 1998. In 2001, U.S. defense analysts took notice of a mysterious ultra-high-speed Russian missile test suspected of being powered by a scramjet. The first successful solo American scramjet tests didn’t occur until the 2000s, though they were some of the first tests to use engines that operated entirely as scramjets. The earlier Russian tests were hybrid ramjets — slightly different, with oxygen only moving at subsonic speeds inside the engine.

Also, don’t think it’s a coincidence that Russia now wants a hypersonic missile of its own. In May, Russian defense industry chief Dmitry Rogozin called the decline of research into hypersonic weapons since the Soviet era “a treasonable act to our national interests,” and that developing hypersonic weapons was necessary to respond to U.S. developments. Nor are cruise missiles the only area where Russia is afraid of falling behind even more than they already are. It’s why Russia is preparing to open up its own version of the far-out research agency Darpa — while also planning a new stealth fighter, directed-energy guns and radars (to help shoot down our stealth planes). Russia also wants new ICBMs (though they flop on launch).

Another reason is that the technology is just really cool. “I think the applications are profound and really could be game-changing,” Lewis says about hypersonics. It’s flying higher and faster, and not surprising people want it.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 10:43 
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Israel pips US in anti-tank guided missile supply to India


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 10:53 
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kmkraoind wrote:


Well - given the definitions being used in the Tank dhaga and the fact that they are talking about 24,000 odd missiles, I think the news item should read:

Quote:
Israel India pips US India in anti-tank guided missile supply to India

All very confusing onlee but what to do :)


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 11:09 
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^^Indeed :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 12:55 
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koti wrote:
A Spike in Javelin's back... :-o
IMI Spike selected over Javelin


Lets do rough numbers:

Code:
Direct Planned purchase - 8,000 missiles + 300 launchers
Planned Licensed Production - 24,000 missiles + 2,000 launchers

Totals - 32,000 missiles + 2,300 launchers [roughly 12-14 missiles per launcher]

If equally distributed between the 356 infantry battalions, we get roughly 6 launchers + 80 missiles per battalion.


The article quotes sanctioned strength is 81,000 missiles. This means there are another 49,000 missiles to be procured over the next decade or two. Some of these are known - 22,000 (4,100 Milan 2T, 10,000 Konkurs-M, 8,000 Nag/200 NAMICA).


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 14:07 
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koti wrote:
A Spike in Javelin's back... :-o
IMI Spike selected over Javelin



I guess, apart from the ToT issue, the decision by the US Government to limit the number of launchers and missiles was also an issue. Goes on to show the level of fossilized minds and thinking process in US Government - especially, the State Department. Well, good riddance, I say.

But if we are going to build such a huge number of Spike ATGM for the army, then it means that a domestic ATGM is out of question. NAG is then likely to have only two avatars - one mounted on NAMICA and HELINA. We should have ideally partnered with Israel and built our own man-portable ATGM.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 14:58 
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we have requirement of 81000 ATGM, quoted in Article. And we are getting 8K in ready to use mode and rest of them(24000) will manufacture here, it will take some time.Still about 50K left and helina is already developed , going through trials and issues of NAMICA, i think has been fixed.So possibility is there for Domestic ATGM in the form of portable version of NAG.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 15:16 
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nash wrote:
we have requirement of 81000 ATGM, quoted in Article. And we are getting 8K in ready to use mode and rest of them(24000) will manufacture here, it will take some time.Still about 50K left and helina is already developed , going through trials and issues of NAMICA, i think has been fixed.So possibility is there for Domestic ATGM in the form of portable version of NAG.


Well, I think the number including the outright purchase is 24K. The article says 'bulk of 24K missiles will be manufactured at BDL".

As for the rest of the requirement - well, the requirement for BMP-2 of the mechanized infantry and main gun fired ATGM of T-90 are different from these. Also, i don't think helicopter fired ATGM are yet included in the 81K tally. Here again, we are going with foreign vendor (PARS 3-LR).

So, I don't know how much is left for domestic man-portable ATGM.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 15:25 
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we should be able to use Shipon rockets / CG rifles instead of ATGMs in many situations. should be 10X cheaper.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 16:16 
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Singha wrote:
we should be able to use Shipon rockets / CG rifles instead of ATGMs in many situations. should be 10X cheaper.


Well, I don't think the above are substitute for ATGM in any circumstances.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 16:18 
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rohitvats wrote:

Well, I think the number including the outright purchase is 24K. The article says 'bulk of 24K missiles will be manufactured at BDL".

As for the rest of the requirement - well, the requirement for BMP-2 of the mechanized infantry and main gun fired ATGM of T-90 are different from these. Also, i don't think helicopter fired ATGM are yet included in the 81K tally. Here again, we are going with foreign vendor (PARS 3-LR).

So, I don't know how much is left for domestic man-portable ATGM.


Even if 10-15% of 81K comprised domestic ATGM(NAG or Helina or other variant) then it won't be small thing, if we look at the token order of 400 odd NAG.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 16:30 
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nash wrote:
<SNIP>Even if 10-15% of 81K comprised domestic ATGM(NAG or Helina or other variant) then it won't be small thing, if we look at the token order of 400 odd NAG.


I don't think you got my point - I was referring especially to man-portable version of NAG. That is where the meat of the requirement is and which I think should come from domestic sources. We all know ToT goes to what extent in terms of helping the domestic MIL-IND complex - even after manufacturing Milan ATGM for donkey years, the Milan-2T version manufactured by BDL fell short of the basic requirement (after repeated trials) and Army was forced to buy the same (4,100 missiles) by MOD - which was arm twisted by BDL.

NAG and HELINA will get their fair share - but in overall scheme of things, the number is going to be small.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 21:56 
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Rohit: going by the LRSAM delay saga, I am not sure if the Israeli JVs are smelling of roses. They seem to be taking our funds, building Iron Dome, David Sling etc and investing minimal manpower on LRSAM. They, like Russia, are laughing their way to the bank

Instead of partnerships, DRDO would be better of reverse engineering Spike + incorporate elements of Nag to build our homegrown MANPATGM. We should aim to at least avoid the next round of imports.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012 00:41 
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Quote:
They seem to be taking our funds, building Iron Dome, David Sling etc and investing minimal manpower on LRSAM. They, like Russia, are laughing their way to the bank


Russia is still better but these Israelis are very uccha koti haramkhors, was recently disillusioned about Indo Israeli puppi jhuppi.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012 06:48 
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Prem Kumar wrote:
They, like Russia, are laughing their way to the bank


I have a slightly different take on this. Let me use an analogy. If we go back a decade or so Indian IT people were imported to the west in large numbers until complaints came in that they are "taking our jobs" The trend then changed to employing those Indian IT people in India.

When the USSR broke up China imported Russian engineers like the west imported Indians. What India is doing is to keep Russian and Israeli engineers employed in their own lands - like Indian IT people employed in India. It is a form of outsourcing. Just like Indian IT people are laughing all the way to the bank in India on western IT money, some Russians and Israelis too are doing that on Indian money. It is a business model.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012 07:34 
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^^
But that is not the problem. The problem is about delivering for what they have been employed for.


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012 16:04 
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shiv wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:
They, like Russia, are laughing their way to the bank


I have a slightly different take on this. Let me use an analogy. If we go back a decade or so Indian IT people were imported to the west in large numbers until complaints came in that they are "taking our jobs" The trend then changed to employing those Indian IT people in India.

When the USSR broke up China imported Russian engineers like the west imported Indians. What India is doing is to keep Russian and Israeli engineers employed in their own lands - like Indian IT people employed in India. It is a form of outsourcing. Just like Indian IT people are laughing all the way to the bank in India on western IT money, some Russians and Israelis too are doing that on Indian money. It is a business model.


There's a key differece: IPR. In IT (sofware!) oursourcing, the product and related tech IPR is owned by the "client" and not the "developer" who is just a hired hand.

In LRSAM example, the IPR will be retained by the "developer" and the client will just have access to the product. As the "client" is a stakeholder in the success of "development", it is possible for them to have some shared equity during investment and, consequently, in IPR. But my experience tells me that cutting edge (harware!) patents can easily be usurped by the partner at whose location the development takes place. The other partner needs to be very vigilant. I've usually not seen such zeal from our sarkari types.


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 22:53 
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Star Wars From Broadsword


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GYnQXFdvcQQ/U ... D+puja.jpg


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 23:10 
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At that age if they are able to do Padmasan, good for them

anyways, for Iron Dome, its AESA radar is considered as crucial, with Akash system's Rajendra radar from which a WLR is derived and is pepped to go the AESA way in version 2 then should be able to fill that role for a desi version of ID.


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