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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 00:48 
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indranilroy wrote:
I challenge you to copy-paste a single fighter part. The Chinese media is goofy, but your post is no better.


I vaguely remember you for only one thing - asking for detailed answers of a confidential nature from a serving Indian test pilot. You don't really check out. Moving on.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 01:09 
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Copying is an art form , Also to follow this path means, u are willing to take risks , and failures do not get into the limelight , it works with each copy being tweeked to make it that little bit better, Japans auto industry started off with this model of development and they are world leaders now. ditto for the Korean auto industry.

OT rant follows:-
On a personal note I think we are being too cautious with our LCA yes it is our first forey into unknown relm of certification. I am not a test pilot and have no source of info other than what is available on the web.

However looking at the dwindling squadron strength , our aderversies are getting ahead in capibilities in leaps and bounds. I can see the IAF's perspective, We need to weigh the pros and cons and possibly (as the saying goes) either have a shit or get off the pot. As the good doc will testify sitting on the pot for too long has disadvantages.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 01:29 
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Location: जो हिंदू हित की बात करेगा वही देश पर राज करेगा !!!
^^ Indranil what's the kasht you have with this post? as I see this is the exact tone these bullies understand.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 01:53 
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Even our nuclear devices and missiles are more or less modeled after Soviet design.. that does not stop us from celebrating our defense scientists. Lets not play rude with departed. It does not serve anyone


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 03:01 
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hnair wrote:
indranilroy wrote:
I challenge you to copy-paste a single fighter part. The Chinese media is goofy, but your post is no better.


I vaguely remember you for only one thing - asking for detailed answers of a confidential nature from a serving Indian test pilot. You don't really check out. Moving on.

I was having a technical discussion with him. He divulged as much as I should have known. I don't know what is wrong in that.

Manish_Sharma wrote:
^^ Indranil what's the kasht you have with this post? as I see this is the exact tone these bullies understand.

Discuss/criticize the products/technology. Why take potshots at the departed. I am pretty sure that the man in question was much much more knowledgeable than most, if not all posters in this thread. To call him "a fricking loser who could not get a job anywhere else and wasted time in government labs" and going on to generalize it to "similar to those time-wasters in DRDO/ISRO/<insert a org>" is a little too much under the belt.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 03:18 
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The J-15 airframe is a Su-33 ripoff. Whoever questions that, needs an eye examination.

Would like to know more about it's air to surface munitions.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 03:19 
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^^^ You are again doing the same rubbish. He divulged diddly and squat. Do not create trouble for him by using weird words, because I called you out here. Nonsense!


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 03:25 
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Manish_Sharma-saar, the other thread that doc-saar has started, it is a good start, but as you realize we do underestimate our own problem. If the drones indulge in photo-shopping, our side indulges in photobombing at its worst in this thread. I mean I dont like blue-on-blue, but patronizing comments is :(

Pointing a finger at the chinese media and some of my chronically depressed fellow Indians became a jibe at the departed. This guy became known only after his unfortunate death. So now it is convenient to claim he was the "designer of the plane", since he cant answer any questions from, say, the Russians? And any questions on this cynical game is a disrespect to departed. And yes, there are only certain methods that make CPC-heads change their outlook, sarcasm being one. They are notoriously thin-skinned on that front

Prithwiraj wrote:
Even our nuclear devices and missiles are more or less modeled after Soviet design.. that does not stop us from celebrating our defense scientists. Lets not play rude with departed. It does not serve anyone


Since its inception, USSR/Russia has been fiercely adhering to the Non-Proliferation Act. In fact more than any other nuclear weapon state. Any flippant allegations about "resemblance of Indian nuclear devices with russian designs" is ignorance at best and frankly, needs a degree of technical insight that is not available in any fora. Particularly in the matter of the physics packages. Same is the case for the strategic rocket programs of India. There is not even much overt resemblances in propulsion, guidance systems or RVs. And that is how it shall remain.

The only strategic area in which there is an open acknowledgement by both sides is the ATV program. So kindly do not wave around such crap lightly


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 04:10 
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Are there any pics of the J-15 with weapons?


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 05:16 
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http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-379465/

Quote:
China launches likely reconnaissance satellite constellation


By: Zach Rosenberg Washington DC

07:29 26 Nov 2012

China has launched what is likely a new constellation of reconnaissance satellites for the Ministry of Defence.

The launch of the Long March 4C vehicle took place on 25 November from the Jiuquan launch facility in north-central China. The three payloads, Yaogan 16A, -B and -C, officially consist of one large and two small earth imaging satellites. Western experts believe that the three are actually reconnaissance satellites - the large one an electronic intelligence (ELINT) satellite, and two smaller radar and optical satellites.

The US Air Force, which tracks objects in orbit, described orbital characteristics virtually identical to those of a of three Yaogan satellites launched in 2009, believed to comprise a similar, complementary reconnaissance constellation. The orbital characteristics and three-satellite constellation are similar to a now-defunct US system called Naval Ocean Surveillance Satellite (NOSS), used to detect and examine ships at sea.

The main satellite was built by China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp (CAST) and is believed to have been built around the CAST 2000 bus design, as are its predecessors.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 05:24 
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Chinese paper congratulates Kim Jong Un on being named ‘Sexiest Man Alive’ by the Onion

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/kim ... 36602.html

lolz...

Quote:
In a hilarious if increasingly common example of a real newspaper taking a satirical newspaper seriously, the People's Daily—the website for the Communist Party of China's newspaper—published a story on Tuesday congratulating North Korean leader Kim Jong Un on being named 2012's "Sexiest Man Alive" by the Onion.
"U.S. website The Onion has named North Korean supreme leader Kim Jong Un as the 'Sexiest Man Alive' for the year 2012," the story announces before quoting the Onion's sarcastic write-up:
"With his devastatingly handsome, round face, his boyish charm, and his strong, sturdy frame, this Pyongyang-bred heartthrob is every woman's dream come true. Blessed with an air of power that masks an unmistakable cute, cuddly side, Kim made this newspaper's editorial board swoon with his impeccable fashion sense, chic short hairstyle, and, of course, that famous smile," it said.
"He has that rare ability to somehow be completely adorable and completely macho at the same time," said Marissa Blake-Zweiber, editor of the Onion Style and Entertainment.
The accompanying 55-page slideshow includes images of Kim in varying degrees of sexiness—riding a horse, posing with military leaders, aiming a rifle, riding a horse and, uh, riding a horse.
Of course, this isn't the first time the Onion's sarcasm has been lost in translation.
In 2002, the Beijing Evening News picked up an Onion story asserting the U.S. Congress would leave Washington "unless a new Capitol is built."
In September 2011, Capitol Police in Washington were forced to investigate after the Onion's Twitter feed teased a satirical article—"Congress Takes Group of Schoolchildren Hostage"—with a series of tweets proclaiming breaking news of a hostage situation inside the Capitol building.
A month later, the Onion caused real confusion when it published a satirical story—"Study Finds Every Style of Parenting Produces Disturbed, Miserable Adults"—that cited the California Parenting Institute in its findings.
The real institute was soon deluged with emails and phone calls from concerned residents.
And in September, Iranian news agency Fars plagiarized an Onion story that claimed an "overwhelming majority of rural white Americans" would prefer Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over President Barack Obama.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 07:21 
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From what I can see China has a grand total of 0 planes they have designed in-house. Even their Z series attack helos are ripoffs.

That they have made all that work (if they actually do to the extent we think they do), great.

But, the next gen is going to be a problem. All their national heroes who designed these machines will pop off and without any fundamental research all they will have is hot air and national pride to deal with.

If China is unable to get all the territories she claims is hers before these techs become obsolete then this house of cards will collapse.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 08:41 
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Copying is nothing new.

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 08:52 
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NRao wrote:
From what I can see China has a grand total of 0 planes they have designed in-house. Even their Z series attack helos are ripoffs.

That they have made all that work (if they actually do to the extent we think they do), great.

But, the next gen is going to be a problem. All their national heroes who designed these machines will pop off and without any fundamental research all they will have is hot air and national pride to deal with.

If China is unable to get all the territories she claims is hers before these techs become obsolete then this house of cards will collapse.


They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 09:03 
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they have a industrial scale espionage operation going using both people and e-means. the fact they were able to steal nuclear weapons data and JSF details via e-means and get a northrop engineer to sell stuff on how to shield cruise missile exhausts indicates its a sustainable 'model' even for next gen kit atleast to some extent.
if it saves them 25% of the hard work and narrows down the potential choices to those already made working by others, they will take it and develop or clone the remainder 75%.

ofcourse there is knowledge that even if stolen isnt of much use unless you have the industrial infra to exploit it. suppose we got the blueprints and entire process to make blisks , we are not in a position immediately to manufacture 1000s of reliable aero blisks. and even if you do, you might not have the insights and data banks to resolve problems easily....the continuing problems with the WS10 is a sign of that. and without fixing it properly first, due to timelines they are forced to start on the WS16 or whatever is supposed to power the j20 eventually.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 09:48 
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Prithwiraj wrote:

They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...


It is fine to crib as long as it does not come with a recommendation that some Indian or other should get a kick up his backside because the Chinese copy so well.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 10:02 
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shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:

They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...


It is fine to crib as long as it does not come with a recommendation that some Indian or other should get a kick up his backside because the Chinese copy so well.


I will rather have copy as 60%-70% original product rather than having nothing on table.. whether the urge to do that is translated in the form of a kick on the backside or not is immaterial


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 10:24 
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Prithwiraj wrote:

I will rather have copy as 60%-70% original product rather than having nothing on table.. whether the urge to do that is translated in the form of a kick on the backside or not is immaterial

You did not appear to think it was immaterial a few days ago when you said this. I hope you have started with your recommendation
Prithwiraj wrote:
Congratulations China---- great achievement at an incredible pace......

down with skeptics who are spending time in analyzing the angle of shadow and possible photo-shopping...

as someone pointed out from time to time .. we need kick in our butt to move on ... hopefully these kicks are potent enough....


And for people who are crying foul on others praising Chinese effort.... --- Grow up...


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 10:40 
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shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:

I will rather have copy as 60%-70% original product rather than having nothing on table.. whether the urge to do that is translated in the form of a kick on the backside or not is immaterial

You did not appear to think it was immaterial a few days ago when you said this. I hope you have started with your recommendation
Prithwiraj wrote:
Congratulations China---- great achievement at an incredible pace......

down with skeptics who are spending time in analyzing the angle of shadow and possible photo-shopping...

as someone pointed out from time to time .. we need kick in our butt to move on ... hopefully these kicks are potent enough....


And for people who are crying foul on others praising Chinese effort.... --- Grow up...



yes kick in the butt is metaphorical.. I hope you get that.. otherwise why do you think Govt. India suddenly started building resources in NE? Is that not kick in the butt what it is? Why do you think we upgraded our security apparatus after 26-11..? it is a massive kick in the butt... what is wrong in having a kick in the butt for some greater good in future? we all get kick in the butt in various phases of our life.. sometimes to beat the neighbours son in math... or to eventually get back in shape and hit the gym... .. Kick in the butt is awesome...we all should get one from time to time...


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 10:44 
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Prithwiraj wrote:
what is wrong in having a kick in the butt for some greater good in future? we all get kick in the butt in various phases of our life.. sometimes to beat the neighbours son in math... or to eventually get back in shape and hit the gym... .. Kick in the butt is awesome...we all should get one from time to time...

I thought we should be giving the Chinese a kick in the butt . Not Indians. And here you are stoutly defending your idiotic recommendation. I disagree with you and will keep making an issue of it every time someone says that Indians should be punished when someone else does something.

If you think Indians should be kicked as part of a lesson, I think you too should understand how criticism and metaphorical kicks feel. Your thrashing about and squirming here as you ski downhill is an exact illustration of how people react to being kicked for no reason just because someone thinks they should be kicked.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 11:23 
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shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:
what is wrong in having a kick in the butt for some greater good in future? we all get kick in the butt in various phases of our life.. sometimes to beat the neighbours son in math... or to eventually get back in shape and hit the gym... .. Kick in the butt is awesome...we all should get one from time to time...

I thought we should be giving the Chinese a kick in the butt . Not Indians. And here you are stoutly defending your idiotic recommendation. I disagree with you and will keep making an issue of it every time someone says that Indians should be punished when someone else does something.

If you think Indians should be kicked as part of a lesson, I think you too should understand how criticism and metaphorical kicks feel. Your thrashing about and squirming here as you ski downhill is an exact illustration of how people react to being kicked for no reason just because someone thinks they should be kicked.


Everyone has an opinion.. and that's the best part of being Indian unlike Chinese.. by continuously mocking and bullying others who don't agree to your opinion you are indirectly walking the Chinese path. I hope you get that. I rest my case here. Oh by the way kicking in the butt is not equivalent of punishment. It is strange despite having such incredible respect and experience you seem not to get such a simple metaphor


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 11:51 
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Yo china Another top class air craft bite the dust in Venezuela Air Show :oops:
http://en.rian.ru/world/20121128/177786487.html

Quote:
MEXICO, November 28 (RIA Novosti) - A training plane crashed during an air show in Venezuela on Tuesday, and a military helicopter went down during a rescue mission, Mexican media said on Wednesday.
A Chinese-made K8 training plane fell near the Libertador Air Base during an air show to mark the Air Force day in the central Venezuelan state of Aragua.

Quote:
Technical malfunction is seen as the main cause for the K8 crash


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 12:42 
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Not surprising. Egyptian pilots have never minced there words on the poor quality and low reliability of k-8.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 15:28 
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Prithwiraj wrote:
Everyone has an opinion.. and that's the best part of being Indian unlike Chinese.. by continuously mocking and bullying others who don't agree to your opinion you are indirectly walking the Chinese path. I hope you get that. I rest my case here.


No need to get upset. I may walk the Chinese path, but I am not the one calling for Indian butts to be kicked. You are. My words pointing out the utter ludicrousness of your viewpoint are no more harmful than your metaphorical butt kicking of Indians every time the Chinese do something that you greatly admire. Not sure why you should get all worked up with what you call my "bullying" while you imagine that your own suggestion that some Indians should have their butts kicked just because there is good news for you from China is a useful and positive one. It is neither useful nor positive. Merely silly. Indian butts must not be kicked just because the Chinese achieve something. I believe you need to learn that. My case will rest after that.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 17:20 
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Selamat Pagi wrote:
Copying is nothing new.

Image



Let me continue the photo essay...

1956 Type 56

Image

1981 Type 81

Image

1995 Type 95
Image

2005 Type 05

Image


Yes, Indians invented ZERO, but so did the extinct Mayans. Meanwhile China invented... Never mind. I don't have all day.

Okay, I'll do one.

1350 Type 50

Image


Last edited by wong on 28 Nov 2012 17:26, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 17:25 
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shiv wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:
Everyone has an opinion.. and that's the best part of being Indian unlike Chinese.. by continuously mocking and bullying others who don't agree to your opinion you are indirectly walking the Chinese path. I hope you get that. I rest my case here.


No need to get upset. I may walk the Chinese path, but I am not the one calling for Indian butts to be kicked. You are. My words pointing out the utter ludicrousness of your viewpoint are no more harmful than your metaphorical butt kicking of Indians every time the Chinese do something that you greatly admire. Not sure why you should get all worked up with what you call my "bullying" while you imagine that your own suggestion that some Indians should have their butts kicked just because there is good news for you from China is a useful and positive one. It is neither useful nor positive. Merely silly. Indian butts must not be kicked just because the Chinese achieve something. I believe you need to learn that. My case will rest after that.


very good..


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 17:55 
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Quote:
They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...


1) I have not cribbed. In fact I have called it a relative achievement. AND given reasons why I say so
2) I have not seen any reasons from you nor any of the Chinese posters, as to why China's efforts in the air craft arena are great (NOT relative to where they were but as an industrial and a strategic asset)


3) What will China do if and when Japan, Malaysia, Philippine, Vietnam, etc acquire real 5th gen air crafts? Real high quality subs? And are ready to go to war combined? May be you and the Chinese posters know more than I do, but from what I can see both of you are taking a very, very short term view of the situation. Which is fine - acceptable. But not to me. There are other events occurring which will bottle up Chinese strategic efforts - which have to rely on such machines.
4) Who is going to replace my cut-paste who died recently? Can these replacements "design" the next J-15? (You cannot hear me laugh, but I am.) Even to design a copied plane it took them years, what with a brand new REAL design?

BTW, China media claims the J15 will take another 2-3 years to become operational and the carrier it lands on another 5-6.Best of luck. More like 10-15 I would say.

Give me thoughts you have, reasons you may have. Some thing I can hang my hat on.

In spite of that if you and China are happy with copying so be it. I for one will sleep well - as I have always said.

I am FAR more impressed with their space program. Their sats - as far as I cna tell - are great. Rockets - great. And they can sustain those efforts with proper funding.

Planes, Meh. Going back to sleep.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 18:53 
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^^I didn't know all Chinese guns were copied. Now I am wondering if Chinese women also get to enjoy copied guns.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 19:48 
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NRao wrote:
Quote:
They will keep on copying and we will keep on cribbing...


1) I have not cribbed. In fact I have called it a relative achievement. AND given reasons why I say so
2) I have not seen any reasons from you nor any of the Chinese posters, as to why China's efforts in the air craft arena are great (NOT relative to where they were but as an industrial and a strategic asset)


3) What will China do if and when Japan, Malaysia, Philippine, Vietnam, etc acquire real 5th gen air crafts? Real high quality subs? And are ready to go to war combined? May be you and the Chinese posters know more than I do, but from what I can see both of you are taking a very, very short term view of the situation. Which is fine - acceptable. But not to me. There are other events occurring which will bottle up Chinese strategic efforts - which have to rely on such machines.
4) Who is going to replace my cut-paste who died recently? Can these replacements "design" the next J-15? (You cannot hear me laugh, but I am.) Even to design a copied plane it took them years, what with a brand new REAL design?

BTW, China media claims the J15 will take another 2-3 years to become operational and the carrier it lands on another 5-6.Best of luck. More like 10-15 I would say.

Give me thoughts you have, reasons you may have. Some thing I can hang my hat on.

In spite of that if you and China are happy with copying so be it. I for one will sleep well - as I have always said.

I am FAR more impressed with their space program. Their sats - as far as I cna tell - are great. Rockets - great. And they can sustain those efforts with proper funding.

Planes, Meh. Going back to sleep.


For me this is really not a dispute on whether China is great in fundamental research and innovation. I never said that. It is about their systematic regime of stealing IP from others and putting it into use at all aspects of their nation may be more in Military and Space. For that matter no weapon systems is credible unless it is battle proven. The hypothetical scenario of Asean countries receiving 5th Generation fighters in near future is as far fetched as idea of J-20 being active anytime soon. It is really all up there with so many variables. I and some other posters expressed admiration for the Chinese to get along with a program and execute the same at break neck speed and so far it seems to be holding up well. The "kick in the butt" comment was seriously around expediting long delayed programs for reasons which are constrain agnostics like Environment Babus sitting on NE files for a long time...

And what is this tendency of clubbing Indians who are a little impressed with what China has done and Chinese in general. Don't you think it is a little juvenile? I am not one of the freaked out leftist from West Bengal who still thinks Chinese People Party Chairman is his chairman.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 20:17 
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Is the soldier below holding a gun or a body shield?
Image


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 20:52 
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^^^^
Airburst weapons are all that size.
Although two INSAS would probably work as shock plates. Not much else you can do with them.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 21:00 
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wong wrote:
^^^^
Airburst weapons are all that size.
Although two INSAS would probably work as shock plates. Not much else you can do with them.


In fact INSAS designed not to burst. Why are the Chinese designing weapons that burst? For export? To Pakistan? (I hope) :D

I saw this hilarious video of Chinese soldiers passing around a bomb that was going to explode. Maybe this bursting gun is something like that eh? Never know when it's going to burst in the air?


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 21:56 
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^^^^

Go to www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 22:21 
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wong wrote:
^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.

Gosh you really were provoked by that weren't you? You want to prove that Chinese arms are good and so you say that the Americans are saying they are good so they must be good. You mean what the Americans say about Chinese stuff is honest and right? OK let me remember that and get back to you. :lol:

Lots of cheap stuff on gunbroker. Cheap and China have a lot in common. I will show you a picture of 15,000 Chinese AK 47s obtained for free from your tallest and deepest friends the Pakistanis as they surrendered in India. They are that cheap.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 22:25 
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wong wrote:
^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.


There are also more chinese restaurants in the USA (obesity Capital of the world) than Indian restaurants.

There are more Chinese items in a Walmart.

These are meaningless comparisons.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 22:49 
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shiv wrote:
wong wrote:
^^^^

Go to http://www.gunbroker.com (the eBay for Firearms). Search for "Norinco" and see for yourself how highly prized Chinese firearms are in America, the firearm capitol of the world. There's reality and then there's you guys.

Gosh you really were provoked by that weren't you? You want to prove that Chinese arms are good and so you say that the Americans are saying they are good so they must be good. You mean what the Americans say about Chinese stuff is honest and right? OK let me remember that and get back to you. :lol:

Lots of cheap stuff on gunbroker. Cheap and China have a lot in common. I will show you a picture of 15,000 Chinese AK 47s obtained for free from your tallest and deepest friends the Pakistanis as they surrendered in India. They are that cheap.


Shiv ji,

Americans also said 'kim jong un' is the sexiest man alive :lol: . Guess what, The Chinese believed it. :rotfl:

No. Don't question Chinese IQ. Don't even think about it! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 23:34 
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Contrary to belief of many, copying is actually a legal and well practiced competitive method used by all manufacturer and designers. By law anything that you think, you invented and want others to not copy, you must "disclose" that information in a patent application in each country where you want that information protected. The burden of protecting information/invention lies on the inventor. Everything else that you didn't protect/patent becomes available to all, to do what they want with it. In the case of Chinese copying Russian imports, to me it means either Russians didn't put meaningful and enforceable IP obligations in place or they really don't care about it or they consider it as cost of doing business with China.

Information obtained with espionage is again a legal states craft and if Chinese are getting useful design/test data via this route, it is an achievement not a crime (legal or moral)


In civilian commercial world as soon as a new model of any product is launched, it is bought and ripped apart by all other competitors to learn and use what ever is new in that product. This holds true for all products cars, phones, electronics, Guns, plastics or chemicals. I myself ripped a brand new Galaxy and Iphone 5 to pieces last week for similar purpose. I had to break it to get to the parts I needed to look at and compare with our technology.

With that said, it's almost as hard to reverse engineer or copy a competitors product as to develop a new one. If reverse engineering was so easy every country would be building Honda accord, Camery and Intel Pentium/Icore chips. With lots of experience and advance industrial base one can make a poor copy, with some efforts but it's likely that it'll have poorer performance, reliability and higher over all cost. No one reinvents all the wheels neither they should when the knowledge of making many of those wheels can be bought.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 23:44 
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^^6 true. the cn are following their time tested philosophy of belling the cat whatever be its colour.

we've gotta produce to reach and match their hard numbers. design may or may not be copied..


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 00:14 
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Singha wrote:
suppose we got the blueprints and entire process to make blisks , we are not in a position immediately to manufacture 1000s of reliable aero blisks. and even if you do, you might not have the insights and data banks to resolve problems easily....the continuing problems with the WS10 is a sign of that. and without fixing it properly first, due to timelines they are forced to start on the WS16 or whatever is supposed to power the j20 eventually.


Yes we can! If there is a credible threat to be dealt with, we ask the best in the world for consultancy in both design and manufacturing, as is happening with Indian aero-engine programs (both the large and small ones). We agree to pay good money for that and is as transparent as it gets. We had design bureaus getting constant training and entire plants setup by such consultants for cutting-edge offensive weapon areas (from cargo shells to ATV) in which we had issues in the past. In fact all these program issues (conceptual and manufacturing) will be published threadbare in Indian/world media, open tenders called, decisions made in double-time (whomever be the current govt) etc. Some of the conditions for such consultancy include getting operational data from their own forces that operate the equipment, as well as being there to trouble shoot during hot-times.

Plus as NRao-saar has been trying to point out, even if you have a thousand blisks/day capacity, you need a giant system, that assembles it during wartime and maintains these thousands on the frontier. But war too has evolved. As Prez Obama derisively put down Romney in a debate about "We have lesser number of horses and muskets too", things are different since WWII era khanland assembly lines. With modern day shorter duration air-ground campaigns, it is more about inventory/stockpile management, than production lines etc. Khan is boss because of all these pieces that come together in a magical (money) fashion.

But China has none of the above consultancy advantages in military systems areas, due to their "adopt without asking" system and even among the chinese policy makers, some of them don't seem to like this isolation. Hence the constant pressure by one CPC faction (realists) on EU to lift embargo, so they can toss away the crap produced by the dick-head faction (people who convince the jock faction that stealing is better for budgets) for parades and shows.

Katare wrote:
Contrary to belief of many, copying is actually a legal and well practiced competitive method used by all manufacturer and designers.


Copying in a legal way can be done by license production. eg: Ford was licensing Toyota's hybrid drive-train, till they got their act together.

But here a government news agency getting pissed over Russians saying "WTF?" about a design seems to be the point that we diverge from the chinese.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 02:06 
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Licensing is for manufacturing of patented (or highly complex) products or processes. Copying is for developing competitive products inhouse, no licenses are needed if it is not patented.

For example, Apple created a new market with Ipad and everyone just rushed in with their own version of tablets. Most competitors will copy and benchmark their products against the leading player. If a part of technology or design is patented/trademarked you would have to find a way around which usually not that hard. If a way can not be found that you go for licensing. if these companies come up with a tablet that is radically different than Ipad it'll not sell unless it creates a new market for that device. if that happens everyone else would rush in with their own versions of the new design.


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