Bharat Rakshak

Cant talk about the mexicans, but the Indian car industry did indeed take the route.

So did parts of Indian aero industry. So did ISRO with Cryo tech.

This model could work or fail depending on many factors, there is no one solution.

^^After license building, the Indian auto industry created its own brands and thus is self-sufficient today. Besides, these are not cars we are talking about. Tanks are part of the strategic MIL-IND complex, where self-sufficiency is paramount. You would have us use ambassador cars and its iterations for eternity, while the latest Indica is out and ready for use.

I did not get cars into the picture SakiO mamaji did, following which, others picked it up.

I am all for home grown Mil-Ind complex -- however that does mean being critical of the parts that do not work and asking for their improvement coupled with solid support.

The cycle for Mk 1 is complete and yet Army didn't give a big order for it, this is the reason for grouse among many.



The above cycle that you laid out worked, that's why Arjun came on top in competitive trials.



The problem now is even when difference between theory and implementation has been bridged by and large still the Army seems reluctant to go for Arjun.



Who told you that the improvements are not there in mk 2 ??? News reports suggest otherwise than what you say.
If t90 is perfect why it still has issues ??? Why was it beaten by a poorly manufactured (as you believe) Arjun ???



AFAIK timelines are being kept to for mk 2 and even if there is a slippage of a couple of months the Army should be patient and support it to the hilt otherwise like always it will be susceptible to arm twisting by foreign arms manufacturers and no amount of ToT can solve this as has been convincingly proved in case of T 90.

Are the 125 tanks that were ordered, have been all delivered with all the fixes identified in AUCRT?

Furthermore, after 125 Mk1, it makes sense to induct Mk2 with all the missing features in Mk1 incorporated (IA had given a list of 84+ necessary improvements)

Let us get this one thing straight, before we discuss anything. Any open source link corroborating the same will be welcome.

Don't get too much fixed about the "fixes", Arjun has proved its mettle in the comparative trials so all "improvements" now what the Army wants is being done on the mk 2. Regarding the no. of mk 1 delivered to Army here are links

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/tf_june2011.pdf

Broadsword tells the no as 110

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/large-orders-can-make-arjun-tank.html

about mk 2

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/heavier-more-lethal-arjun-tank-poised.html

Read both the articles as they have lot of info and why it is necessary for Army to put a big order.

Initially I thought of ignoring you,but heck.. this need to be told for the better health of the thread.

assembly is a "proper subset" of manufacturing. clear?

/OT

Thread is gone insane.no useful discussion

So best case as of now perhaps the order given in 2000 for 125 tanks may be met in 2012, with perhaps the fixes, or perhaps not.

Thank you. Ponder about that for a while.

Agree...truely bizarre theories being peddled here!!

No it has got a dose of reality, which had gone missing due to the unfortunate trap of discussing too much of Shukla and his pet peeves and theories pulled out from his all giving one source.

Right now it is causing cognitive dissonance to some folks, but will get fixed in time.

I told you sir to read those articles carefully



Production can be scaled upto any levels the army wants 50/100 or even 124 tanks a year but it must be kept in mind that the production won't go up till there is a large order so that would justify the massive investment in infrastructure needed to produce 50/100/124 tanks a year. I didn't came across any news report lately where Army seems unhappy with the production rate because till there is no big order no one is going to invest in a big way in setting up production units to fullfill orders for a piecemeal 124 tanks.

Many on BRF harp about privatization but here is a dose of reality on going pvt.



Pvt. industries only come in when there are guaranteed returns so if one wants to privatize the Indian mil ind base then you must be ready to order big otherwise you will end up paying more when you could have done it in much less. Also once the vendor chain is lost it becomes a pain in the a$$ to find another one who will deliver it in the same quality,time and charging the same amount as the previous one did. In short this means more delay which could easily have been done away with if there was enough orders to keep the line running for a long time. Once the line shuts down it will take time again to get it back up and running. So it's not only Avadhi's fault for slow production rate but also the Army's.

We have been discussing these articles here when they were posted. You are new to the game. No need to presume things.

Another question for you. Do you know the sanctioned production line of Arjun and when it was set up?

Not presuming anything sir only replying.



My info is only from open source no inside source in this case so going by the article my guess would be after the production order came i.e. 2008-09.

Well the saga unfortunately is much much longer. Without getting into all the history of the project from 1975 (yups 1975) -- the latest iteration is that in 1998 the prototypes were tested. They were found wanting in a number of aspects which they were supposed to already have.

In any event a 125 tank order was given despite that, with the understanding that the remaining issues will be ironed out in LSPs. In 2000 Arjun was formally given to IA. At that point itself a 124 tank order was given, with a line capable of 50 tanks a year. The plan was for the 124 tanks to be inducted in IA by 2004-5 time frame itself (including the necessary tests)

However with one thing and the other, and LSPs still facing issues, the Arjun's could only be made ready with LSPs ready for AUCRT by 2006. Where again issues were found. Much finger pointing and blame allocation later, DRDO eventually accepted the findings of AUCRT and agreed to roll them in.

It took about 2 years for the LSPs to be made ready for further trials after previous issues seen were fixed (which are often called comparative trials, but were actually simple putting Arjun through its paces) this was in 2008. By this time, production was already underway technically since about 2000 about 25-50 tanks had already been produced (as LSPs, for tests etc)

Even assuming that a fresh batch was undertaken in 2008 (not really older tanks needed only to be fixed, not completely written off, or totally changed) -- a 50 tank line, should have completed production in 2011.

The fact that it has not, and we dont even know if all the fixes are rolled into all the Arjuns (rotting the fixes identified into a few Arjuns would suffice for trials, but not for deployment) -- in itself says that the previous order has not been met.

So basically -- the story is the same, have CVRDE+Avadi, be more responsive, meet the committed deadline, and provide proof that the past issues are history.

Arjun will end up like INSAS otherwise (look at the small arms thread for details) -- and it wont be IAs fault.

You should try your hand in fiction writing...going by your description of the Arjun development story, you'll make first class fiction writer.

I already am one, didnt you know.

Unfortunately, this time it is all very real. Yes I know you will say that all the delays are IAs fault only.

But can some one tell me, since 2008, given a 50 tank line, why is the 125 tank order being met not a done deal? IAs fault again?

IA has inducted Arjun is proof enough that issues have been fixed to an extent that Arjun is meeting IA's demands so I don't get it why time and again you come out with "CVRDE and Avadi need to prove themselves" even after Arjun made T90 it's bitch. The day the results of the comparative trials came it has been clear enough for any sane man that Arjun has arrived and T90 is now obsolete. Also from your posts it seems like you love to live in the past instead of seeing what the present situation is and what fruits it will bear in future.



If IA decides to go with it's import plan then it will again end up in a T90ish situation sooner or later.

You must try and understand. "IA inducted Arjun" is not a one shot affair -- technically speaking IA had inducted Arjun in 1999. ABV had officiated the ceremony.

What does Avadi need to do to prove itself?
1) Stick to timelines, with quality,

for example if 125 tanks are ordered, 125 tanks need to be delievered. Not 15, not 35 not 110 but 125.
These 125 ALL need to have ALL of them work at their design specification.
These all need to be delievered when they are supposed to be delievered.

Further more, weapons systems are not frozen in time. They continually evolve. So if IA has a upg requirement, the upgrd requirement must be
quickly designed
quickly trialled
quickly produced.


[/quote]

Again basic inconsistency, an effect of too much Shukla on this thread. T 90s will have 1670 tanks. It is done. There are still 4000 plus tanks which are old, Arjun can easily fit it, provided it is ready. GoI in 2000 mentioned that the ideal force balance IA was looking for was 50:50 between the T series and Arjun, which is about 2000 of each (at least).

And it is not the past. I am talking about the present -- let the basic commitments be met before expecting that a bigger order can be serviced.

One step at a time -- let them deliver the first 125 tanks, in good order, for which they are more than equipped, funded and given time for.

They are being delivered and please point out to me any open source info that the rate with which Avadi is delivering currently is making IA unhappy.



This is not a 2 min noodles R&D takes time and IA needs to understand it it's high time now IA does so, more than enough time has passed by.



Arjun made T 90 it's bitch in the comparative trials sir I think you need to accept this howsoever you wish it didn't happen but it did so stop going circles about the same thing again and again regarding Arjun needing to prove itself, CVRDE/Avadi improving quality, orders being finished on time etc. etc.



Arjun beat the T-90 what else now do you want a moon landing ???

Frankly the posts are getting tiresome. Dont reply, you have been provided a lot of material which you were not exposed to before. Digest, read more and educate yourself.

Cheers.

Since you have been unable to force down your views down my throat so suddenly it's tiresome now and what material are you talking about sir ??? I see no material but only your views regarding why Arjun shouldn't be ordered. Just answer a simple question of mine, If all your allegations against Arjun MBT, CVRDE, Avadi are true then how come a shitty tank like Arjun (as you believe) humiliated TFTA T-90 in comparative trials ??? Give me a solid answer to this and I will accepts all your views on Arjun immediately.

I am only trying to educate you so that you may understand the complexities of the real world better than make 16 year old fan-boi statements like "yeah pwned you B****"

For example



And when did I say that?

I have been trying very hard to explain to you that there is a difference between
1) A good tank design
2) A set of tanks made as per the design
3) A full production run
4) A full system which can repeat the steps 1-3 quickly.

Arjun is a good tank. T 90 is also a good tank. No Arjun did not pwn T 90. Some of its performance metrics are undoubtedly superior, as it should be, however it comes at a cost which T 90 does not have to pay. There are multiple weapon systems in the world, optimized to different roles.

Because Su 30 is good, does not make Rafael bad. Savvy.

So net net. Understand the full picture, with the attendant complexities.

Because you are going round and round crying about problems with Arjun that's why I was forced to make "16 year old fan-boi statements like "yeah pwned you B****" so that you feel the same way I was feeling reading the same thing again and again in your posts. You stop going in circles I will stop making "fan-boi" statements.



I have been also trying very hard to make you understand that all you are asking from Arjun is already there and Army should have placed a big order instead of giving piecemeal.



Agree sir but the problem is that both Su 30 and Rafale have pretty big orders for them but the same wasn't done for Arjun MBT and that's what I have been asking why is it so that even after proving itself Arjun didn't get a big order ??? Now don't tell me about "step 3 and 4 needs to be followed for big order" since they will only come in picture when a big order is actually in place.

So net net sir you also need to understand the complexities associated with production manufacturing and the economics behind it.

Yes there are problems with the Mil-Ind sector, which affect the Arjun program, primarily at the manufacturing end. And no, your lack of acceptance is not going to change that and yes, those are abosultely the real issues which deserve discussion.

Problems with the T 90 are also there and no matter how much fixing is done it will still be obsolete compared to Arjun mk 1 lets not even go into mk 2 your lack of acceptance of this fact also isn't going to change it and the only thing that deserves discussion and for which you have failed to provide any answer is why didn't army place a big order for Arjun MBT even after successful trials ???

Sigh...... Ok let me try and answer once more.

Because the old orders are not met yet. Let Avadi learn how to make 50 Arjuns a year, then, we can discuss big orders.

^^^

AFAIK, all first order should be completed by now. As of November 2011, 110 tanks had been delivered and production rate was at around 50/year. At that rate remaining 14 tanks should have been delivered within the first quarter of this year. BTW, full Production only started around 2009 or so after Arjun completed trials. Before that it was more like LSPs.

Orders have to be staggered to keep the production lines running between batches. Given many subcontractors (raw materials & parts) are involved, it takes at least 2.5 years to get the production/assembly line to start delivering new orders. Since new follow-on orders have not been placed, the current facilities set up (for 50 tanks/year) will remain idle for the next year or two. Then too, only 118 Mk.2 are being ordered pending trial outcomes. For that limited quantity order, the plan is to produce only around 30 tanks/year rate. This rate could be increased if more quantities are ordered.

I think it must be well over a year+,two perhaps,when I posted an extensive IDR report on our armour acquisitions/production.In a nutshell,it spelt out problems for Avadi in producing the required number of tanks-of all classes,T-72 upgrades,T-90s and Arjuns,givn the production constraints.Production of Arjun was the most difficult givemn that MK-1 didn't fully fit the bill and one option to enhance Arjun production was to abandon the earliest T-72s to be upgraded,but using their chassis for a variety of miscellaneous armoured vehicles.As is quite clear from the facts,the T-90 is available in thousands,making it easier to obtain components,spares,etc.,while Arjun is available only in a very limited number-a few hundreds,making it difficult to produce and sustain given the paltry figures ordered.

Here the GOI/MOD must decide whether the IA's stand-more T-90s is a better bet than producing Arjun in limited qtys.,with its alleged support drawbacks.The figure of about 500 is what is needed to break even and have a force of Arjuns that can be sustained by local industry.The problem still is as Sanku and others have pointed out,is that there is a biug Qark,a general lack of meeting deadlines in almost all DRDO led projects,barring most missile production which seems to be healthier.Whether it be warships,aircraft or tanks,lack of accountability and the absence of a "hire and fire" policy,thanks to vested babu interests,coupled with huge ever-increasing DRDO budgets promoting cushy PSU landing spots for mediocre men,is why the three services have been forced to buy firang products time and time again.True,there is an active arms lobby that wants foreign imports,but closer to the the truth is the fact that mismanagement of our def. PSUs for decades,coupled with a lack of integrating the services into the system is why we are in the current plight .Just see how the armed forces have deliberately NOT been integrated into the higher levels of strategic planning and foreign policy at the political level and you will understand why the same situ exists at the material level.

^^Here we go again. As expected the second funny man joins the fray. Apparently, DRDO did not meet the deadline, but still Arjun made T90 its bitch. What does that say about the T90. Anyone can make a piece of crap in time, because it is a piece of crap. Besides its is an old piece of crap with some sugar coating (ie spiced up T-72 and how long has that been around). Some people have been consistent in criticizing Indian defense endeavors and making excuses for Russian inefficiencies and delays. Be it the T90 or the Goshkov, it is somehow fine to paint over the faults or delays and present a shiny facade. But any hiccup or delay in the local manufacturing and development must be made into a capital offense. This level of fanboyism is sickening. I don't even understand how these people have the time to make these comments nonstop all day. Every debate is turned into an endless circle of nonsense, each line of idiocy leveraging the previous. No sensible argument works and no logic makes sense to them. All the same, one cannot leave these people to pollute the forum with their biases, because it would ruin it for good. So, we keep on endlessly swatting the flies, in a seemingly pointless effort.

Arun,

The bantering between the two sides, is the reason this forum is here. Besides, I don't think India has any laws against opinions and speech, so just let the two sides banter and express themselves. There is no other objective in these forums, except for making an argument and expressing your reasons to support it.

BTW, I was looking at the specs for the t 90MS and it looks like a decent tank. What I would like to see is the Arjun production and orders ramped up and the current T 90S fleet be modified to the MS standard. Therefore, I think it would be imperative for the GOI to invest in another Heavy Vehicles Factory (like Bihar or other poor regions) so that the 90's can be upgraded and Avadi can churn out new ones.

no we do not need another PSU factory in the boondocks where only the most desperate are willing to go work and produce crap

we have to look at other models involving pvt sector at least partially in this process

Only useful take away from that article: MO and MF are feeling huge pressure about Arjun. The fault lines are becoming very clear now.

Involving the private sector would be a good idea. Here in BC, our government has started P3 projects (Public and Private sectors combined), and the construction and speed have been outstanding. I still think, that the investments should be made in the poorer states so that they can become more developed plus the Defense Industry can expand while the Army can upgrade its toys and get new ones faster.

Besides, poor people doesn't mean crap products. Give them proper training and education and they can produce amazing items. While the factory is being built, the government can also invest in training the new workers, and the poor folks can now have opportunities for the future. I think it's a win-win for everybody, especially the Nation.

Private sectors are involved in supplying various raw materials and parts.

But IMO no private player would want to be the lead contractor for the Arjun project because there is no profit to be made given the current scenario-- low intermittent orders while having to invest heavily upfront for R&D and production infrastructure. Who would want that?

Srai-ji; that is the point I am trying to get to conclusively. As far as I know the regiments equipped with Arjuns pre 2008, still have their Arjuns from the LSP. Will they be replaced or merely upgrd from LSP to production status? Or is 125 over and above the LSPs (I think not, LSPs were part of 125 tank order)

Furthermore the production line is known to be for 50/year by construction, but is the production rate also stabilized to 50 a year?

There are no clear answers, and given the track record, I would like more info to conclude that the order is done with.

Sigh..... OK let me also try to make you understand.

Avadi can make whatever no of tanks the army wants in a year provided the investment required to fullfill those orders is justified by the size of the order. In simpler terms an order of 124 tanks doesn't justify huge investment to setup the required infrastructure because after the orders is finished you just can't throw away the machinery and the people and the vendors who were involved in making them. All this aspect has to be kept in mind while deciding what no. is sufficient per year to keep the line running for long so that the investment made in setting up the line rakes in profit instead of loss. Broadsword article about it throws light on this issue.

Now do you get it why I have been harping about big order and it's not like I am asking IA to take a piece of crap to support indigenization. So you saying that more orders will come after the previous ones have been made is completely false since neither the army has shown any intent like that or anyone from CVRDE has said anything of that sort nor is there any public info about Army holding up orders because CVRDE isn't delivering on them so it's only your view and not the fact about which I am more interested in.Even in case of mk 2 it's again the same piecemeal 124 tanks.

I see, so Avadi can not make 124 tanks from a already sanctioned 50 tank a year line in 10 years (or 5 if you want to use the 2008 time frame) but it will make 100000000000000000000 tanks magically when a 10000000000000000000000 tank order is given.

And we are supposed to believe this because?

I have not run a 1 Km in my life, but if some one sponsored a ticket to tour de france I would win the cycling championship.

Right absolutely.

Jai ho.

You misunderstood

I did not mean poor people - but think of who will want to go and work int he boondocks of Bihar?? Which skilled engineer will leave decent B level city.
The place has to be nearby engineering infrastructure - just like HAL etc are - boondocks is fine for pvt players who have other means to incentivise. PSUs with fixed grade pay will attract poor talent to such places.

Right now I need our MIL IND complex to start ramping and am not concerned about boondock development.

IMHO and all that

It wasn't that Avadi couldn't produce it. The fact is that Army wouldn't accept it till they were 100% satisfied with it. That was the real cause of the delay. Of course, the army could have accepted the 124 Arjuns in the present form, and pushed for improvements and modifications, like what happens all over the world, or the way they deal with T90s for example.