Bharat Rakshak

The "second funny man" now has a prediction,that from the current trend/slant one is seeing from the IA,A Mk-2 will find it tough going to be inducted in strength.By the time it is "prefected",a new Russian or Russo-Indian concept/prrototype for a 3 man crewed 50t FMBT will arrive and spell the larger,heavier and probably costlier A-2 its doom.Keep laughing and watch this space... a few years from now!

PS:Remember,"he who laughs last,lauighs best!"

Clearly you have nothing absolutely nothing qualitative to add neither in terms of facts or in terms of your views so the only remaining choice you have is to hopelessly go round and round whining about the same thing so as to create an illusion to yourself that you are "debating" is by doing rhetoric. But facts will remain facts whether you accept them or not, I understand how much of a shock you had got when the results of the comparative trials came out from which you still suffer and that's why you neither accept facts or are ready to have any kind of sanity while putting your point forward because now you have made it into an H&D issue. With you it's now like...
How come I agree that Arjun is better than T90 ??? What will happen to my H&D ???

So no matter how much anyone puts any kind of data infront of you or any logic you will keep up with your rhetoric but nevertheless the tubelights in DGMF seem to finally have been lit which is more important than whether you come to see the point or not. So please you continue with your H&D saving exercise.

Well this still does not explain why a 50 tank line can not make 125 tanks since 2008 (even assuming that no LSP are reused) And btw, the first order for 124 was when Arjun was far from 100%, (and so on..)

Instead of blaming anyone, the important thing is to realize that the setup for production needs to be ramped up, significantly. The OFB and also the CVRDE need to be enabled to deliver quickly (saam daam danda whatever works) --

On that note --

Arjun Mk II was to be tested this summer. Any idea as to what happened to those tests? They started on 25th June, shouldn't we be hearing about them by now?

Meanwhile to refresh the current plan.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4717



Realistically with IAs feedbacks rolled in, we can get 30 tanks of Mk II by 2014? (LSP for Arjun II) -- and this is indeed the "phased improvement" model that everyone asks for. And oh these improvements were known at least as far back as 2008 (it took 2 years to roll them into a plan)

This right now, is the reality of where we stand. In terms of our abilities.

So I think, if any one wants the moon, they should at least want that the rocket to get there gets built quickly. What? -- But people seem to want the moon without bothering about the rocket.

Yes I am unfortunately constrained to keep repeating a, b, c, d since there seems to be some trouble grasping the very basics.

I will keep doing it till that situation is rectified.

Read the above post -- look at what is currently promised by DRDO itself in terms of what they can do. Get real.

You need to follow your own advice first before doling it out to others, first read the articles I posted which were posted much before as well you will get your answers but off course you will deny them as you have to maintain your H&D.

No, the issue was that IA wouldn't accept the Arjuns as they were in 2008. That is why you were seeing multiple tests every summer and winter. It was only when the IA couldn't come up with anything more for Mk-I that they accepted. Search on the web for pictures of half made Arjun shells at Avadi, awaiting army confirmation before they could be fully built.

Those articles have been around since 2008, and have been discussed, rediscussed and re-rediscussed. You may have found them recently, but those articles are old news.

You are well advised to read more than those articles though.

You are also advised that there are more recent articles than the ones you posted which have been posted in this thread as well and discussed in depth, find them and read.

The last "test" was in 2008. There is no test since 2008. There were tests till 2008 because enough serious issues were found in each trial. 2008 was first time Arjun met DESIGN parameters necessary for operational clearance.

Would you have IAF induct 300 LCA before IOC? Let alone FOC ? Its same.



Ok , Avadi has half made Arjun shells, there are no Mk I tests since 2008.

Avadi is supposed to make 50 tanks a year. It should have completed a full order from scratch by 2011. Why are there no reports saying that Mk I are all delivered?

Ok since I obviously need to repeat somethings to get it across -- Already done, much before you even joined this discussion. Now would you please return the favor and read more than those two articles?

For starters start reading this thread from page 1. And its prior thread. And its previous one. I have also read all those. And all articles linked in those.

This is not meant to be a personal attack on Sanku or Sagar, you guys in a tiny sense, are DRDO and IA.

The debate between Sanku and Sagar provided me a glimpse as to why IA is un-willing to buy an indigenous platform and improve it but buy a readymade pack of sh$% and keep spending on it and covering their defects like there is no tomorrow.

DRDO: Arjun has superior firepower IA: Can it fire a shell to the moon? No, I buy T-90
DRDO: Arjun beat T-90 in comparative trial IA: I do not want so capable a tank. I will buy T-90
DRDO: Arjun does not mal-function in Rajasthan summer heat IA: I will put AC's in my T-90
DRDO: Arjun has better armor-protection IA: Arjun is heavier. I will buy T-90
DRDO: Arjun can fire all missiles in your inventory IA: I will pay Russia to make an upgraded T-90 that does and after they make it, buy it.

and finally,

DRDO: Please give us an order to make Arjun tanks IA: First make Arjun the best you can, then i will change the specification. Then you go back and make the newer spec Arjun. Then we will see about order. Meanwhile i will order some more T-90's

If the IA top brass is even 90% like Sanku, DRDO can make the best tank in the world but the IA will keep throwing it to the dustbin citing one reason or the other. Trying to make them see reason is like banging one's head against a wall-only you get hurt.

It surprises me to see a country shun its own defence platforms made from scratch so badly. Look at any other country in the world, look at their troubled programs also, be it the US with their F-35, the Chinese with their W-10, one thing always stands out-their military supports their industry. Does a father kick his child when he is learning to walk or hold his hands so that he learns to walk?

We are probably, the only father, who kick their child when they are learning to walk.

Close the Arjun program and buy T-90.

First of all lose your "know it all" attitude, don't think that you are the only one here who has been reading since long time about this issue and going by the standards of your posts it's pretty clear who need to read all over again so please I say again follow your own advice before doling them out to others.

True words. Through Sanku, we are seeing indirectly how the minds of IA top brass who make armor acqusition decisions work. Decision has been made and nothing is going to change it.

Some recent video on T-90MS & Arena

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRFg3Upzukc

People who are supporting T-90 have to answer few questions.

1.T-90 failed in summer trial at Rajasthan than why did it induct at first place ? or Did it induct without summer desert trial?

2. Why don't we have Arjun vs T-90 trial in Punjab,J&K,northeast or Ladakh to get idea about each other comparatively as well individually in different environments.Just giving weight as an excuse you can not rule out project like Arjun. You have to trial it in those different conditions.The reservation about Arjun only broken after comparatively trial with T-90 before that we saw many attempt to scrap Arjun.

3. IA asking for more in Arjun, what does that mean ? IA believing in Arjun ?! and they want more or just namesake they are dragging DRDO and ex-checkers money in to Arjun project ? If you are believing in Arjun than start putting more orders.

4. If current total order of T-90 will take more than couple of years than don't IA and you think Arjun will be improved in those years ?

-Ankit

Ah, the chorus line of the (in)famous Moscow City Rodinettes (my apologies to the Radio City Rockettes). Just proves that these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot are still alive and kicking, at least on BR.

A few of the most regular posters on this thread seem to be following these principles, such as they are:

1. If you repeat something often enough, it starts sounding true.
2. Generally people's attention spans are short enough that they will not realize it if one contradicts one's own statements made a couple of pages back.
3. Logic and reason can always be drowned by a high noise to signal ratio.
4. Fanboy logic always trumps facts and truth.

And finally:

Sau mein se assi beimaan
Isliye mera T90 mahaan.

Did anyone compared Leopard 2 with Arjun 2?

It depends on the perspective u are looking at. In a battle, both T-90 and Arjun will be indian tanks from Chinese perspective as will be the Chinese carrier from indian perspective. In F1 race, the ferrari of Force India will be considered an Indian car but in a auto expo it will be called a Italian.

This is not meant to be a personal attack, but that was a fairly foolish post. Firstly, I certainly do not speak for IA, and I am sure that DRDO says nothing remotely as funny and ill informed as Sagar G has been saying.

The rest of your post is about just as accurate.

I dont expect posters like you to substitute poor personal attacks for reasons, clearly the less informed newbies quickly take to being personal when facing cognitive dissonance.

Certainly should not expect that from you.

Meanwhile if anyone wants to discuss the real questions -- the ones unanswered in my post viz -- Current status of last order.

Current status of Arjun Mk II (of which DRDO expects to be able to make about 30 by 2014)

Those points would be worth discussing -- also worth discussing would be ways and means DRDO and Avadi can cut down the development + manufacture time, which right now, just takes too long.

Your rhetoric is matched by your arrogance keep it up

No attitude, your perception. I certainly am not the only one. You are certainly not amongst those who have read on the topic or know about it. You dont even know the basics, for example you did not know when the order for 124 arjuns was given.

You do not know that in principle order for 124 Mk IIs already exist.

And many other things. It is your lack of knowledge which is causing irritation -- and am saying that very humbly. No offense meant at all.



Yes you need to. Read a lot. Right now my views are causing cognitive dissonance because you are coming across lot of data for first time.

In time you will learn and understand that the two articles that you read on the issue and formed a world view around are neither complete nor accurate.

Some learning everyone goes through.

Neither did you till I pointed out in Shukla's article that the order came only in 2008 so please try to impress somebody else with your non existent knowledge.



This only shows that you aren't reading anything but purely sustaining yourself on rhetoric.



Feelings are mutual only.







Hypothetical assumptions of a prejudiced mind.



Damn sure that list doesn't include you.

Sagar G -- I understand your need to turn the debate into a personal dog fight, since you are clearly put out on the info/logic front, I however can not indulge you, thanks but no thanks.

If you wish to discuss the real world issues (and not me) I shall be happy to talk about them. Till then.

Real world issue with you !!!!

^^^

Sanku Sir,
Shouldn't IA then wait till 2014 and have some comparative trials with Arjun Mk2 with T90 MS prior inducting any one of them. T90 MS would also have matured by then.

IA did not conduct any extensive trials of T90 prior buying it and hence suffered with various issues with T90 in desert conditions. Shouldn't they should learn from their past experience and have atleast some trials for that. Except this Tank business, almost all the major armed equipments are getting trials before getting inductions.

In previous posts, you had told that there is place for IA to place both T90(+ future models) and Arjun(+future models).
My argument is that IA should wait till 2014 and if it has good faith in Arjun Mk2 at that time, then it could place orders for it instead of T90MS and then additionally if need arises (where T90MS proves to be superior in some respect to Arjun Mk2) place a request to DRDO to could create a lighter variant of Arjun Mk2 say Karna Mk2 that could incorporate best of both T90MS And Arjun Mk2.

I think one way of setting this right is by having an MRCA styled competition where RFI's are sent to major tank manufacturers and let Arjun and T-90 compete with other tanks. Whichever tank wins the competition takes the cake. Why have a single vendor situation in tanks. When every thing else is being procured with multi-vendor competitions.

We have a indian product which suits us and quite good and they why multy bulty deals from around the world??? Product which suits our requirements and which can be made and further developed is readly there and the user for obvious reasons do not want it even though it is the better product than the alternative faoured by them.

I say so because it is absolutely ridiculous hearing of Arjun trial this Arjun trial that and yet the tank is not being accepted. Just do a comparative trial against all the plausible tanks that can meet our requirements and put an end to this saga. If Arjun beats the competition then Army will not have any excuse left. If it can't well hard luck to our MIC, and frankly the requirements that were proposed for FMBT, looking at them I fear none of the tanks can meet Army's requirements.

Always true anywhere in the world, the user can always reject any product. That is the problem with IA.. they are just users, and not stake holders. Convert them to take ownership.. Arjun will have its share.

There are simple facts that can be observed
There is a trust deficiency between IA and DRDO
There are some areas of excellence in DRDO
There are many areas where DRDO has failed
Simple items are still being imported which DRDO should have been the source for supply for technology and start producing them locally

The army is enarmored by imported mal as it is in production
The army has it's own regiment that roots for imports
The army is manipulated by political, babus and brokers
Imports are one way to get slush money to one and all
The most recent news that BEML itself had to pay bribes to push Tattra trucks is one example

DG of procurement recently told a friend of mine who supplies systems to Agni missle
Don't try to sell toys when approached for UAV supply completely made in India with out even listening

The IA aldready tested the Arjun and against T-90 and T-90 came a cropper. But arjun purchase does not mean easy foreign kickback commission flowing from foreign vendor to foreign Bank accounts out of the scrutiny of Indian agencies.

Guys,how much of Arjun is Indian? Please examine the content,esp. the engine.Even if an Indian MBT is bought do not imagine that babudom will not get its share of loot! Even with other smaller in significance but large in number items sourced from local industry,the ever-present kickback allegedly kicks in.The Tatra scam exposed the tip of the iceberg.

What the DRDO/CVRDE need to openly say to the IA/MOD is that they can produce the perfected Arjun MK-2 whatever, that has met IA certification/acceptable std. ,number of tanks and timeframe,along with the cost per unit and then press the govt. for support for production.Even 50 tanks per year will not meet all the IAs requirements.This is a fact staring at us in the face,as I've mentioned before,Avadi has so much of other work,upgrading T-72s,producing /assembling T-90s ,specialised armoured vehicles,etc.,that it needs to have a 100 per year production line for A-2 in place so that we can produce about 700+ tanks by 2020.This number will not be able to even replace older T-72s which cannot be upgraded.

The second point is from past statements from Army chiefs,etc.,that an FMBT design for the next decade should be lighter,possess a larger main gun, and have a 3-man crew.There are huge tech. obstacles to be overcome.But if that is the way of IA thought and doctrine,then where does a 4-man crew A-2 fit in for the future beyond 2020? Therefore,as I've said,even if A-2 is perfected in reasonable time,and produced ,we will not have more than 500-700 in service before the FMBT/T-90 replacement kicks in.Like B'mos,I would advise that an FMBT design involving the CVRDE and a foreign manufacturer-a JV ,be contemplated for the future, which will ensure enough indigenous effort and content yet be at the cutting edge of tank tech.

^^The indigenous content would be much higher, if the army gave a big enough order to justify local manufacture of those components. This also explains the lack of a larger manufacturing infrastructure, with greater number of tanks produced per year. Either you are incredibly incapable of grasping such basic concepts or your pretending to do so to further a straw-man argument.

The latest news reports indicate that the FMBT pipe dream has now been given up, having been understood to be paradoxical and illogical in its specifications and quite beyond the current technology available anywhere in the world. So, there goes your other argument.

Lastly, who is this partner in the joint venture you are suggesting. Given your great love and unrivalled fanboyism regarding everything made in Russia, I assume you have that country in mind. Now this is really curious, because you are suggesting we partner with a country that today fields a tank that had its rear spanked by the Arjun in trials held by the Army. Your logic is that we partner with the nation that has an INFERIOR tank. Notwithstanding Russia's great history in tank design, what is that they can really contribute? What is that they can do that we cannot in this regard? You make no attempt to explain such things and still throw up stuff into the air hoping that something would stick and you have a new excuse to sideline Arjun and justify more Trash-90 purchases.

Please spare us your mind games. It is becoming tiresome seeing such cyclical and periodic efforts from Russia lovers. All you end up doing is stop real discussions from happening on this thread.

Trashing FMBT dreams is actually a welcome idea.. why don't they just support the current first and think about graduating to FMBT in tranches. actually, growing up happens more organic than what is on papers. This only shows, how much importance we give for self reliance.. surprising CAG is silent so far.

Pardon my ignorance, I hope no one's suggesting culling Arjun is/was the only option because

1. plant is inefficient producing it
2. Imminent threat perception

Avinandan-ji -- Actually, the tanks have been needed at least since 1994. When the T 90s were inducted, IA had not inducted ANY new tanks for 25 years.



It did. Fairly extensive. First set of prelimanry tests in Russia, extensive 2 month summer test and winter tests.

I have posted the references many times, I can post it again if needed



It did face some minor issues, at extreme end of use case spectrum. No major issues have been seen. For example the parliamentary standing committee and CAG both have NO observations on these. But they have on other systems (for example). The ONLY source which says T 90s has issues is Shukla. (this also corresponds with his stint with BS a journo, and his profile getting raised by Boeing trips to see the teens etc)



It was already too late, the new tank acquisition were held back by the same argument from DRDO, (like WLR) and finally T 90s were purchased out of sheer desperation when the tank fleet was literally falling apart.

If that was the case, when T 90s were ordered in 1998 and 2004, there would be no Arjun to take part in the competition, as Arjun matured only in 2008, after lot of hand holding.

Further more, the new system for multi-vendor process, came to fruitification ONLY in 2004 (after T 90 order were already under process)

If one looks for a case where the policy had been obviously flouted, C 17 purchase is a much better example.