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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 08:45 
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This is unlike Jaguars, which were inducted first and weapons trial performed on it later. In fact it took almost half a decade for Jaguar to be "weaponised" after induction. And after weaponisation, it went for a refit on avionics!

Not to mention Mirage 2000 as well, we got the Magic and 530D only later.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 08:56 
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there was a old game called Falcon4 F16 simulator. the small slash and run Mig21s were very hard to deal with even for a F16. I never managed to shoot one down or even get on one's tail. mostly I bagged tu16 type bombers with amraams in head on engagements and sometimes in tail chase cannon runs climbing to high alt and shooting up from behind.

that model of F16 sure didnt have a great thrust regime and tended to "fall off" and lose bite when the nose stayed up for more then a few seconds. even landing the f16 properly was not easy due to its narrow wheel base...I usually belly slid or overshot 75% of the time. :lol: if I were a pilot the WingCo would have chewed me out and sent me back to basic trainers.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 09:23 
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^ You should move to F22 Raptor (by Novalogic) after you are done with Migs and EFs , you can drop a nuke in the enemy heartland and also return back and straffe your own airfield with remaining rounds in the cannon (I usually like to take out the friendly AWACS , watertank and the ATC in no particular order :mrgreen: ).


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 09:36 
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^ F-22 is way too easy to play. Go straight ahead, no one will be able to lock on you and one can easily decimate the enemy though F-22 is not that maneuverable as MiG-29 ( in MiG-29 Fulcrum, Novalogic). I go about shooting all the objects present in the game. :mrgreen:

In MiG-29 whenever a sam/aam is fired on me, I dive steeply to the ground while dispensing flares and chaff. Works like a wonder, don't know how effective this is in real life. SAMs are difficult to beat this way though.

Cheers....


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 09:46 
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vina wrote:
Quote:
I would be surprised to find out that they are changing the ejection system. It would take more than 3 months to do that, I presume. Probably, they are going to add a longer shark tooth on the top of the seat or something like that.


Yes. I would agree that if they were changing the ejection system to blowing off the canopy, then at the minimum they would need to model it in wind tunnels, then the actual simulation in the test track for the escape systems and then implement it. It would take time. However, if it had already been planned, then the change over could have happened.

I tend to agree with you that they probably have not fundamentally changed the through the canopy ejection system to the jettisoning the canopy system. Maybe modified the seat with a longer spike and some way of breaking the canopy cleanly over the head area with explosive cords or something is easier done and tested in 3 months.


It could even be a software modification in the timing of the ejection sequence if the safety panel discovery about the helmet was that a part of the helmet in a pilot over 5 foot 10 in height would hit part of the canopy unless the ejection sequence was modified by a few milliseconds. We don't know what they found and what they did. Yet Ajai "less brown than you" Shukla, a neo-Macaulayite, chooses to write that the LCA has "limped out of ICU". The contempt that Indians learn to show about the competence of other Indians is remarkable and that contempt seems to be directly correlated with early education in India.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 09:49 
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suryag wrote:
I remember in the param veer chakra serial or the hindi movie(on the iaf 71 conflict) the pilot who is a Sardarji takes out the webbing inside the helmet so that he can qualify to become a fighter pilot which otherwise wouldnt have been possible given his height


Param Veer Chakra it was, how to cram in a 6 foot sardar into a adhai foot Gnat.

Flying officer Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon.

Ladne wala kabhi jyada der zinda nahi rehta. Life badi .... cheez hai.

Thanks for pulling me back into my nostalgic memories.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 10:16 
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Just now saw one LCA, usual tea break :D


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 10:57 
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shiv wrote:
It could even be a software modification in the timing of the ejection sequence

True. All we can do is speculate, it could be one of the "n" possible solutions to whatever problem was discovered.

Quote:
We don't know what they found and what they did. Yet Ajai "less brown than you" Shukla, a neo-Macaulayite, chooses to write that the LCA has "limped out of ICU". The contempt that Indians learn to show about the competence of other Indians is remarkable and that contempt seems to be directly correlated with early education in India.


I don't know where he wrote the "limped out of ICU" but I did my bit of speculation from reading the article on his blog and did the YumBeeYea/Stratejee giri of looking for scenarios that look plausible.

Quote:
The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the DRDO agency that oversees the Tejas programme, has now provided a backup mechanism to blow off the canopy before the pilot’s head struck it.

“Yes, we had about three to three and a half months of gap [in flight testing]. Now that problem has been resolved. We have modified the Martin Baker ejection seats, making them more reliable and giving more confidence to our pilots. With that behind us, I think we are roaring now,” said Saraswat.

So given the 3 months gap, I sort of worked backwards and with my reading of "Shukla speak" (he is after all reporting as he sees it (as a layman) and not a Ear-o-space Eggspurt) of "blowing off the canopy" and Saraswat's "modified the ejection seat" to speculate that they put in the detonating cords in the canopy like you see in other through canopy ejection planes we have (BAE Hawk, Jaguar and Sea Harrier) and the modification to mean longer sturdier spikes to shatter the canopy (spike is the backup, in case the cords fail to detonate) .

So when during the next AI show, when the LCA is flying inverted, and Kedar Karamakar takes his brilliant photos of that , we will know for sure if this is what they have done. I'dont recall the LCAs having the canopy detonation cards from the photos so far.

Quote:
if the safety panel discovery about the helmet was that a part of the helmet in a pilot over 5 foot 10 in height would hit part of the canopy unless the ejection sequence was modified by a few milliseconds.


Ah.. So you say the 95% range for Yindians has gone beyond 5'10" now . Hmm, the thin short dark indians have now seem to have grown in height. Fortunately, the average Paki has shrunk by 4 inches in the past couple of years (must be all the Chinese "food" the Pakis are eating now I suppose) and have shrunk to the average height of their Chinese brothers. Maybe that is why the JF-17 will have no "ejjakulashun" problems and the Pakis can eject very cleanly.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 11:01 
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Vina- for the only JF-17 crashed, the Pilot ejection seat did not work and Pilot has to enjoy a gravity powered ride from 15K feet high till he met with the ground, rumour has it was the plane went to a spin when he tried higher than a 5g term.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 11:03 
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http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19776
Quote:
Rediff.com » News » India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU
India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU
Last updated on: November 27, 2012 11:27 IST

India's desi fighter jet Tejas limps out of the ICU
Last updated on: November 27, 2012 11:27 IST

Ajai Shukla

The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, which has remained grounded for more than three months, finally resumed flight-testing last week.



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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 11:29 
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So, rediff morons added masala to the Original blog title
Quote:
After 3 months on ground, Tejas fighter flies again


If the same report were about tin cans, it would read: rejuvenated t90s captures the sky


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 12:02 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Vina- for the only JF-17 crashed, the Pilot ejection seat did not work and Pilot has to enjoy a gravity powered ride from 15K feet high till he met with the ground


Ouch! Poor guy. I guess that is one of the consequence of cloned products and poorly tested products. While the Chinese can clone a Martin Baker ejection seat from an imported sample, they will have no OEM support and access to their knowledge base and testing infra in case something needs to be changed for whatever reason.

In the LCA's case, Martin Baker as the OEM would have been on board, helping out with the needed modifications and their expertise in this.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 12:21 
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What poor guy, I want all PAF pilots to repeat such a Manuveour.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 12:30 
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Therefore India is at a better basis of development, with open access to all available western opponents and subsystems, not like China that is sanctioned almost always.

Then why LCA is always late? You know J10 was a project started much later than the LCA but the latter has been in service 7 or 8 years already.

BTW, i don't mean to offend anybody. LCA is too small, it could be a nice bird if it could enter service around 2000. But by now,i.e. 2012, it is too small to support a country as big as India is.

Let's make a bet. From now, no country would develop a new type of manned fighter, as small as LCA anymore.

vina wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Vina- for the only JF-17 crashed, the Pilot ejection seat did not work and Pilot has to enjoy a gravity powered ride from 15K feet high till he met with the ground


Ouch! Poor guy. I guess that is one of the consequence of cloned products and poorly tested products. While the Chinese can clone a Martin Baker ejection seat from an imported sample, they will have no OEM support and access to their knowledge base and testing infra in case something needs to be changed for whatever reason.

In the LCA's case, Martin Baker as the OEM would have been on board, helping out with the needed modifications and their expertise in this.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 12:40 
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When did this JF-17 crash occur. Given that it was inducted without any sort of rigorous testing 1 is not too bad.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 12:59 
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wrdos wrote:
Therefore India is at a better basis of development, with open access to all available western opponents and subsystems, not like China that is sanctioned almost always.

India too was under sanctions , until very recently. The program that was most affected by sanctions was the LCA and hence the most delays. The J-10 was much further along (after all, it is an Israeli Lavi with the Chinese rubber stamp on it and a few modifications..), with most of the development already complete elsewhere (Israel) and still you guys botched it.

Doing real engineering from grounds up requires lot of trial, engineering and most importantly testing. Your ejection seat on the JF-17 , didn't work as advertised for example. There is a price that is always paid for short cuts.

Talking of which, look at the work the Indians did on this, along with actual pictures of canopy severing and a dummy ejecting (I got this from Googling from trying to find out what they have done in terms of infra and testing on this). If they are still looking to refine it and work out the kinks at this stage, just shows how painstaking it is.

There is a big difference between open societies such as India and US etc and China. You can read all about how the F-22's canopy wouldn't open and how they had to take a chains saw and cut open a couple of 100,000 dollars worth of gold plated canopy (literally) to get the pilot out. What do we know from China. Nothing. Other than rah-rah fan boy rants.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 16:09 
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wrdos wrote:
Therefore India is at a better basis of development, with open access to all available western opponents and subsystems, not like China that is sanctioned almost always.


Wrdos ji, so was India after the Shakti tests.


wrdos wrote:
Then why LCA is always late? You know J10 was a project started much later than the LCA but the latter has been in service 7 or 8 years already.

BTW, i don't mean to offend anybody. LCA is too small, it could be a nice bird if it could enter service around 2000. But by now,i.e. 2012, it is too small to support a country as big as India is.


Ok here is the data for you to meditate on:
From Opensource:
LCA Tejas Wing loading: 247 kg/m² (50.7 lb/ft²)
J-10 Wing loading: 381 kg/m² (78 lb/ft²)
F-18 Super Hornet - Wing loading: 94.0 lb/ft² (459 kg/m²)
F-16C Block 30 - Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)

At Max. Combat Load (basically design limit)
LCA Tejas Wing loading: 13300/38.4 = 346 kg/m^2
J-10 Wing loading: 19277/33.1 = 582 kg/m^2
F-18 Super Hornet - Wing loading: 29937/46.5 = 643 kg/m^2
F-16C Block 30 - Wing loading: 19200/27.9 = 688 kg/m^2

Incremental Wing Load compared to competitor:
How loaded is J-10 compared to LCA Tejas : (582-346)/346*100 = 68%
How loaded is F-18 compared to J-10 : (643-582)/582*100 = 10%
How loaded is F-16 compared to J-10 : (688-582)/582*100 = 18%

F-18 and F-16 were rejected by Indians. If I remember correct these could not even take off in high altitude take off tests in Himalayas. Are you sure J-10 would fare any better.

FYI, the Combat radius envisaged for LCA Tejas is 500 km (ie. Full load, loiter, drop/fire in anger and dance around trees). I have attached a nice map for your benefit below.

http://s1339.beta.photobucket.com/user/ravi_g/media/Ranges/Approx500kmrangeofLCATejasassoughttobedeployed_DRDOpresentations.png.html?sort=3&o=0#/user/ravi_g/media/Ranges/Approx500kmrangeofLCATejasassoughttobedeployed_DRDOpresentations.png.html?sort=3&o=0&_suid=135409445147905922187750840688


wrdos wrote:
Let's make a bet. From now, no country would develop a new type of manned fighter, as small as LCA anymore.


I am sure you are happy with your choice bro. Congrats.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 16:46 
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ever since the nixon-deng compact China has received unprecedented industrial collaboration from the west.


I will simply not accept this nonsense from chicom sh*t about "how they have built things in a vacuum". it's utter nonsense. Let us not forget who GE has transferred advanced avionics to, who honeywell gave satellite bus techto and who was the recipient of programs such as Peace pearl. and these are some well known transfers I am highlighting.

It is equally well known that US big business and Chicom are joined at the hip.

It is we who have been denied tech and components and have been forced to buy entire systems from abroad.

Chicom propaganda on this forum has reached unprecedented levels.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 18:05 
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We all seem to think, as described in articles that in the past three months, the whole LCA fleet was grounded due to one reason: the problem with the ejection of canopy relating to the seat.

That may very well have been the case, but there were a lot of other modifications being carried out on the LCA fleet. Keeping in mind the feb 2013 live firing exercises.

The different LCA'a were not of the same engineering levels since different modifications and tests were being carried out on each one. Also, a thourough check needed to be carried out on the airframes. Time consuming. So this was also a period were decisions were taken to freeze parameters of certain units, both HW and SW and bring all of them to a certain level, and also to consolidate the entire fleet as one. And it would be foolish on ADA/HAL's part to share details of this with the DDMs or me. :)

I would be surprised to see only one LCA taking part in the February exercise.


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PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012 19:33 
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sure thing.. we all can agree that they talked in detail only about the canopy<->helmet issue.. which probably was a planned thing along with a list of other things they had to do. 100%, those details will be kept hidden from public.

now, the good things are:
1. lessons learned should be documented and process matured.
2. mistakes corrected, and look forward for FoC.

all these knowledge gets transferred to AMCA.

we all should be happy with the lab boys to share the top 1 news in their list of things, whatever low priority they have kept for that. indirectly, meaning there might have been higher priority aspects that they fixed... mostly from extending the flight envelope for advanced missile launches, and higher Gs.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 14:56 
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Flight test update

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1945 Test Flights Successfully. (24-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-75,LSP4-56,LSP5-107,LSP7-5,NP1-4)[/quote]

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 15:01 
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Bangalore Airspace is very Alive these days-choppers,Tejas,Jaguars,I guess apart from LCA testing they are also preparing for February Air exercise. Will love to see Tejas dropping some LGB on target with perfect accuracy.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 15:07 
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saw a sinister looking black dhruv yday around 5:30pm , silhouetted against the sun.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 15:12 
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Nashji Upgraded JAG with a cute nose flying around?


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 15:22 
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suryagji it was just a glimpse from bus so can't say much....


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 16:09 
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Singha wrote:
saw a sinister looking black dhruv yday around 5:30pm , silhouetted against the sun.

Saw a chopper hovering over Dodda Nekkundi lake around 7 or so - but wasn't sure which bird it was. Thought it might be TD2 LCH owing to the sound (but then again in traffic, it's difficult to not be distracted).


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 16:55 
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nash wrote:
Bangalore Airspace is very Alive these days-choppers,Tejas,Jaguars,I guess apart from LCA testing they are also preparing for February Air exercise. Will love to see Tejas dropping some LGB on target with perfect accuracy.


News on Derby, Python V or IV, R-73 would be even more awesome, especially if tests were carried in dogfight terms. Tejas role in peacetime and first few days will be CAP or scrambling and taking on attacking enemy fighters on Indian airbases.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 16:58 
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a small white painted bizjet of the IAI Astra type making frequent rounds these days.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 20:02 
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wrdos wrote:
LCA is too small,


Small and loaded with composites. So it has a miniscule radar signature and will be virtually invisible to the naked eye. 4 LCAs can cover air defence for a 100 Km radius around a town or airfield or even an attacking army column. 30,000 square kilometers. It sips fuel and can loiter. That is value for money.

You seem to have forgotten that the only fighting experience the PLAAF has is with small Soviet fighters (MiG 15) in the Korean war, where they did well . Don't forget that the Chinese choice of humongous J 20 and medium size J-31 are centered around the engines available for them. If you had your own engines you would design fighters around them,


Last edited by shiv on 29 Nov 2012 21:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 20:06 
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Singha wrote:
a small white painted bizjet of the IAI Astra type making frequent rounds these days.


That's a medium sized one actually (looks pretty big while landing off golf course) but I have never managed to identify it. My recognition skills do not extend to anything that has a civil application although this one looks suspiciously like some kind of electronic snooper. Is it an IAI Astra? Or Grumman Gulfstream? Wiki says IAF has both.


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PostPosted: 29 Nov 2012 20:53 
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you would get a better view, the one I saw seemed to be this shape and size (IAI Astra), but I am sure gulfstream has such jets too. both are SIGINT I think though some might be ARC(under RAW?) and some under IAF.
http://www.air-and-space.com/20061025%2 ... ff%20l.jpg


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PostPosted: 30 Nov 2012 10:22 
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Bheeshma wrote:
When did this JF-17 crash occur. Given that it was inducted without any sort of rigorous testing 1 is not too bad.


That is the one reported crash. What about all the others? :twisted:


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 09:55 
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Is there a terrain following mode for EL/M-2032 based MMR, now that the lower segment in the IAF including Jaguars are being standardized on it.


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 09:59 
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imo TFR is not just the radar, the output of the radar has to be processed by the FCS and autopilot system and control adjustments made to follow the pilots set height . so unless the Jags FCS is also being changed to integrate fully with the radar I would doubt the automatic TFR is there. JAgs are said to be quite stable and designed for lo-lo-lo manual flight though TFR clearly helps in reducing pilot workload and in fog/bad weather. the Mirage2000D had a dedicated small radar antilope5 for this function iirc.

wiki on EL2032:
In Air-to-Ground missions, the radar provides very high-resolution mapping (SAR), surface target detection and tracking over RBM, DBS and SAR maps in addition to A/G ranging. In Air-to-Sea missions the radar provides long range target detection and tracking, including target classification capabilities (RS, ISAR).
----
we just got ourself a lot of maritime strike power if we apply the upgrade to entire Fleet and purchase a suitable ASM like harpoon!

--
Antelope 5/50 radar modes from 1992:

Antilope 5 and Antilope 50 possess six different modes:

Terrain Following (suivi de terrain), the radar sees up to 7 nm in front of the plane, allowing a 600kt speed at 200ft

Ground Mapping (cartographie), enables two submodes: VISUSOL gives a 160° (+/- 80°) map with 1/250,000 or 1/1,000,000 scales, while RESOL enables to magnify a part of the map from 2 to 50 times

Terrain Following + Ground Mapping (mode entrelacé)

Ground Target Ranging (télémétrie), effective range 8nm

Air-to-air (air-air), range 16nm, 160° wide sweeping, BoreSight and Slew submodes possible

Air-to-sea (air-surface), comparable to Ground Mapping


Last edited by Singha on 01 Dec 2012 10:03, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 10:00 
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I think not.. dunno, but LANTIRN from LM was provided to Israeli F16s. Also, they had a tie up with Grumman for TFTA (not the BR acro.. avoidance.)


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 10:47 
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Lot of info, yes radar in TF/TA modes is just a feed for the FCS and the autopilot system, I am counting on the Nirbhay to proof this integration since its both unmanned and has endurance after similar number of tests that Brahmos was doing over the time. The claimed 500m AGL minimum flying altitude for subsonic Nirbhay doesn't give much hope, its a start though.

Tejas has got an FBW and perhaps last year an autopilot system as well
Jaguar also has an FCS and an autopilot system and being a phased out system in other air forces can we now have full access to the avionics?
MKI with its RCS issue was never talked in terms of lo-lo-lo flight
Rafale - Check


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PostPosted: 01 Dec 2012 11:20 
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600 knots at 200 ft is pretty scary both for the pilot and the enemy. makes it almost impossible for any vshorad system to engage the plane. one flash and its gone.


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PostPosted: 03 Dec 2012 19:07 
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Per Livefist

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/12/f-3 ... chief.html

Quote:
F-35? We Want The LCA Navy: Indian Navy Chief


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2012 21:06 
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Flight test update

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1947 Test Flights Successfully. (28-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-76,LSP4-56,LSP5-108,LSP7-5,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1949 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-77,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-5,NP1-4)


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PostPosted: 06 Dec 2012 23:23 
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BRFite

Joined: 14 Jan 2012 18:00
Posts: 937
^^The Navy is really a model to follow in supporting indigenous platforms. I hope the Army DGMF learns a lesson or two from the Navy.


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