Indian Naval Discussion

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srin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by srin »

Did we exercise options for additional Scorpene submarines under P75 ? I recall reading that we did (for 3 additional subs), but the above report is still about the original 6.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by AbhiJ »

Can anyone explain this?
The Defence Minister witnessed INS Shivalik execute, various evolutions including a 'surface gun shoot' and Jackstay with INS Shakti in copy book fashion.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=80189
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by krishnan »

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19802

hope the RFP for the P75I is out soon. Hope its the U216 . German subs are the best :) . Though they wont bring much to the nuclear table .
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... aval-ships

When can we see a gag order from PMO against pusillanimity masquerading as tact like in the case of our babu-turned NSA.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

U216 does not fit our requirement because it is vaporware unlike soryu. Think about it, the only nation thats likely to purchase it is aus. Hdw u214 didnt get good reviews at all. Germans have no real life exp in open ocean asw unlike japan whose oyashio and now soryu did it, has a huge fleet of asw ships and lrmp as well. Plus its tech will be optimized for the pacific ocean :twisted: unlike the baltic sea :((

Not to say the soryu is perfect but its user has more exp in long range big subs, it is in service in jmsdf and hooking up with japan is far more useful strategically than germany.

The pragmatic choice is soryu with nirbhay, harpoon and slam. Inshallah it will give a ssk capable of sortieing from the andamans around indonesia gaps into the big lizards backyard.

Ps..no brahmos, but with nirbhay doesnt matter.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vina »

Inshallah it will give a ssk capable of sortieing from the andamans around indonesia gaps into the big lizards backyard.
Ah.. Camh Ranh Bay would be better. After all, don't the Vietnamese want their folks to be trained on their Kilos at INS Satavahana ?

Slipping in a few brown skinned yindoos masquerading as "Saigon Chettiars" is not very difficult.. Kilo is Kilo, all you need is to paint a new flag on it.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Singha wrote:U216 does not fit our requirement because it is vaporware unlike soryu. Think about it, the only nation thats likely to purchase it is aus. Hdw u214 didnt get good reviews at all. Germans have no real life exp in open ocean asw unlike japan whose oyashio and now soryu did it, has a huge fleet of asw ships and lrmp as well. Plus its tech will be optimized for the pacific ocean :twisted: unlike the baltic sea :((

Not to say the soryu is perfect but its user has more exp in long range big subs, it is in service in jmsdf and hooking up with japan is far more useful strategically than germany.

The pragmatic choice is soryu with nirbhay, harpoon and slam. Inshallah it will give a ssk capable of sortieing from the andamans around indonesia gaps into the big lizards backyard.

Ps..no brahmos, but with nirbhay doesnt matter.
My gut feel is when we pay the french for scorpene it is for submarine related Tech used in our Nuke subs as well. Thats why this process can't be as open as it should be.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

A ssk made of barracuda ssn would work as well. But need lots of rework methinks.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

While the members are busy salivating the purchase of the next batch for IMFS (Indian Made Foriegn Sub), they seem to have totally forgotten that the Scorpean is still a good 3 years away, at minimum, in the mean while the foxtrots are all gone, and the the early Kilos and the 209s are approaching the end of service lives.

The SUB fleet is being gutted by the delays in the sub program.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

IMFS = thats one abbv for the records! 8)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

The P75I should be the last IMFS ;) Hope the GOI dosent squander the capabilites built up. The focus will shift to nuke subs from now on anyway- 25 is the number being thrown around... :-o :-o :-o
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23360 »

Obvious choice for P-75I would be S80 with its similarity with P75
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

it may be a upsized scorpene but made by Izar not DCN and the internal systems incl the AIP are totally different. even the weapons are different. plus best case delivery if spain budget doesnt implode is 2015. other than looks nothing is common. the combat system is likely different too.

so Soryu is a lot more pragmatic.

imo if we didnt have such a fetish for sickularism and global tenders, and being a equal-opportunity bigot, we'd have tied up with the scorpene makers DCN *5 years ago* to come up with a 2x scorpene sized ocean going desi Soryu design using much the same internal parts , tools, training processes and have it ready for production here after the initial lot of Scorpene or start it in parallel at another place seeding it from the trained pool of scorpene workmen initially.

it is very unlikely UNLESS YOU HAVE THE INDUSTRY to make everything in house (germany, france, USA) that you will get a best of mixed breed pup with the best sensors, best weapons, best powerplant, best hull, best AIP sourced from N sources....it just doesnt work due to commercial and political situation.

instead we continue to make a hash of it while Aus is atleast in serious talks with U216 and Soryu makers.

its 10+ yrs since Kargil and I have heard the P75I myth since then. in between Cheen has produced and purchased a bunch of Kilo 636, produced multiple Yuan subs, produced some Jin and Shang class nuclear subs as well.

hope to see and end to this mess one way or another soon...hopefully with a "surprise" DCN scorpene2 design we have secretly funded, plus our SSN class after arihant being Le Baraccuda Indicus fish.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nits »

CCS clears proposal for Karwar naval base expansion
overnment today cleared proposals worth over Rs13,000 crore for a major expansion of the strategic Naval air base at Karwar where the Russian-origin aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov will be berthed and raising a new battalion of Sikkim Scouts for the Army.

The proposals were cleared at a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here, Navy sources said.

Under the plan, Navy will carry out the expansion of the Karwar base on the country’s western sea board in Karnataka where it will berth Admiral Gorshkov, now rechristened INS Vikramaditya, and carry out military aircraft operations. The aircraft carrier is expected to join the Navy next year end. It plans to deploy the Scorpene submarines and a number of surface ships at the base after the completion of the over Rs 10,000 crore project at Karwar.

Codenamed Project Seabird Phase IIA, the work will involve construction of a wide range of new facilities and augmentation of certain existing facilities, they said.As per the plans, the Navy will be able to base around 30 major warships at Karwar after the completion of Phase-IIA by 2017-18.

It is also planning to establish a Naval Air Station there for deploying fixed and rotary wing ship-based military aircraft, they said. Project Seabird has been dogged by long delays, fund crunches and truncated clearances since it was first approved in 1985 at an initial cost of Rs350 crore. Phase-I, which was completed at a cost of Rs2,629 crore in 2005-06, has enabled the Navy to base more than 15 warships at Karwar.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nits »

India nears catapult decision for second indigenous carrier (IAC 2 )
India is in the process of deciding whether its second indigenous aircraft carrier will be equipped with catapults.

The vessel, referred to within New Delhi naval circles as IAC 2 (indigenous aircraft carrier 2), will follow IAC 1, which is now being built in Kochi shipyard.

IAC 2 is envisaged as a far larger warship – with a displacement of approximately 60,000t – and could enter the fleet within 10 to 15 years. Senior leaders within the navy are leaning toward deploying this ship with catapults, sources say, with a decision on whether to integrate steam catapults or an electromagnetic aircraft launch system to come as soon as July 2013. New Delhi is also considering the possibility of making IAC 2 a nuclear-powered vessel.

Indian navy plans call for a three-carrier fleet, with the service’s only current example, the Viraat, to be retired in the coming years. This would allow one carrier to be stationed on each of India’s coasts, while the third would undergo repairs or perform other duties such as training.

The Vikramaditya was supposed to have been delivered this month, but problems with the ship’s propulsion system have reportedly delayed this until the second half of 2013. Prior to the emergence of these issues, Russian pilots in RAC MiG-29K/KUB aircraft conducted successful flight tests from the ship.

Through the use of catapults, IAC 2 would be able to operate larger, more powerful aircraft, such as the Dassault Rafale - the apparent winner of the Indian air force’s medium multirole combat aircraft requirement – or the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Catapults would reduce the deck space required for launching aircraft, while allowing them to carry more fuel and heavier payloads. Ramp-assisted operations require long take-off runs, and involve fighters burning considerable fuel just to get airborne.

The addition of catapults would also allow IAC 2 to operate fixed-wing airborne early warning and control system and battle management aircraft, such as Northrop Grumman’s E-2D Hawkeye, providing the fleet with far greater situational awareness than helicopter-borne surveillance equipment.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SNaik »

Through the use of catapults, IAC 2 would be able to operate larger, more powerful aircraft, such as the Dassault Rafale - the apparent winner of the Indian air force’s medium multirole combat aircraft requirement – or the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
That sounds rather lame. RafaleM is definitely neither larger nor more powerful than MiG and F-18 is just marginaly so. You can still go with the ski-jump, all you need is just a bigger carrier (which is apparently to be).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

payload will be hurt esp for a2g strike missions with heavy ordnance like those triple racked AASM - rafale could carry a centerline fuel tank, and 12 AASM250 + 2 wingtip Mica + max internal fuel perhaps with the catapult but not ski jump.

but in a binary case, I don't think Hawkeyes can work with Ski jumps...never been tested for sure.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

nits wrote:India nears catapult decision for second indigenous carrier (IAC 2 )
India is in the process of deciding whether its second indigenous aircraft carrier will be equipped with catapults.

The vessel, referred to within New Delhi naval circles as IAC 2 (indigenous aircraft carrier 2), will follow IAC 1, which is now being built in Kochi shipyard.

IAC 2 is envisaged as a far larger warship – with a displacement of approximately 60,000tand could enter the fleet within 10 to 15 years. Senior leaders within the navy are leaning toward deploying this ship with catapults, sources say, with a decision on whether to integrate steam catapults or an electromagnetic aircraft launch system to come as soon as July 2013. New Delhi is also considering the possibility of making IAC 2 a nuclear-powered vessel.

Indian navy plans call for a three-carrier fleet, with the service’s only current example, the Viraat, to be retired in the coming years. This would allow one carrier to be stationed on each of India’s coasts, while the third would undergo repairs or perform other duties such as training.
1. There needs to be a reality check on the timeline. For IAC 2 to enter the fleet in 15 years (2027) means the design for it must be finalized by 2015. Right now it looks as if just the GSQR is being decided/debated and the design seems 5-8 years away.

2. We have seen in the example of the LCA and the F-35 that when one tries to do 2 or 3 big things at once in a new platform things tend to break down - resulting in delays and compromise in capabilities. IAC 2 we are doing a good thing by being ambitious and future proofing ourselves but I have a feeling we will not get all of the following a) Increased Size b) EMALS c) N-propulsion.

3. In light of the rapidly changing maritime dynamic wrt Chinese the Navy would do well to put availability before capability, especially since our original plans should have got us a 3 carrier navy by 2020. Getting a 60kt carrier with an EMALS catapult capability on time should be manna from heaven for us.

4. One also hopes the Navy starts to spell out what is our expeditionary doctrine around these 3 carriers. Is there a CSG equivalent? Who is going to provide marine infantry-Army or IN? How many LPD/LPH types are being ordered in parallel?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

one line answer: use the ready DCN PA2 design.

coolest looking too, with two stealth islands.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by pentaiah »

if you can design a robust beer bottle filling conveyor plant and labeling system like in mallaya's kingfisher plant vulcano sytem. get the gun of bmp2 fitt in the turret sytem of Arjun and the hydraulic damping system BEML earth moving you have our own rapid firing gun




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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by RamaY »

Dumb question

Is there a possibility for India to buy a AC that is delivered and integrated into the force within 5 yrs? What are the options? I remember reading about one British/French vessel. What would be the cost of such an acquisition?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

France has not funded their pa2 design...its same template as uk qe2 in cogag plant and size, but ctol with rafale and hawkeye full payload ops.

Uk qe2 is nearing completion, and will be stobar after a brief dalliance with ctol ....

There is nothing ready for sale, best bet is fund dcn to consult us for the pa2 basic design and build in addl bigger drydock in kochi.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by RamaY »

The reason I am asking is AC are a 10-15 yr project for India and have a limited qty requirement. Perhaps India should focus on building smaller vessels in large numbers first. I am not knowledgeable in this field but I think a buy option is better than make option in this scenario.

If a AC along with its air wing can be acquired for $10b, I think it is a better option IMHO. Imagine MMS got a AC for the $10b he donated to EU.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kakkaji »

Singhaji:

Re. Soryu: I doubt That the Indo-Japanese military ties have progressed to the point where the Japanese are willing to sell India such an "offensive" military platform. Certainly not with transfer of technology.

Even if the Govt-to-Govt relations were great, it will not matter. Japan's pacifist constitution will not allow it to be sold to an "area of conflict". Good luck with getting spares in case of war.

Have the Japanese sold "offensive" weaponry to anyone post WW2?

I think France, Russia, Spain etc are the only choices for P75I. Let L&T tie up with any one of them and produce them in India.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

RamaY wrote:Dumb question

Is there a possibility for India to buy a AC that is delivered and integrated into the force within 5 yrs? What are the options? I remember reading about one British/French vessel. What would be the cost of such an acquisition?
Actually this is a really smart question. Jump back a few pages on this thread and you will see options like the Spanish Principe de Asturias being available...but seriously considering such options means giving more weightage to the availability of a platform in a dynamic security environment today rather than the limited capability and shelf life inherent in an older build.

One just hopes in the next year or so we don't find ourselves in a situation wrt the Chinese where there is a confrontation requiring the Viraat to be employed, and like in 1965, our only carrier is sitting in the docks for repairs or refits.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Katare's point on indigenous sonars.Yes,R&D takes time,but when put into production on so many warships and subs,the further problems must be minimised.However,for comparison with other navies,look at the huge problems the British and others are also having with their own subs,etc.mastering sub tech is a massive task.

Cats or STOBAR? Big decision.Cats hugely expensive ,reason why the RN has ditched them for its own 65,000t+ QE carriers in favour of the STOVL JSF,also hugely expensive at around $150-200M per plane....when it eventually arrives! Cats also demand huge extra power which means that the powerplant requirement is going to be a major worry.Nuke power? Whatever the sokution it is going to add a few billions extra to the cost.

IN's choices.Examine a naval version of the FGFA.The latest AWST says that the IAF is drastically cutting down on numbers of FGFAs (no twin-seat versions because it does not believe HAL can develop it).There was some talk of a Russian naval version.Rafales and other current aircraft like our Flankers can easily operate from the deck using the STOBAR system.In the long term,for future decades,India must have its own STOVL aircraft for naval aviation as this system is by far the easiest to operate especially in recovering aircraft.AWST also says that the AMCA design now resembles the F-22.

Future subs.The cost of western conventional subs is almost as much as an Akula on lease!.perhaps even more.We should buy/lease out at least two more Akulas which will be vastly superior to any conventional AIP subs and carry far more land attack missiles and other weaponry.In fact the ATV design is an excellent platform for being converted into an SSGN-which in current avatar it really is.Our top priority of all programmes is developing our SSBNs and our underwater strategic deterrent ,we at the moment have no additional capability/yards,etc., to simultaneously build both SSGNs abnd SSBNs.A future AIP sub must be able to carry Brahmos which is the best in the world at the moment and which gives us a definite edge over our rivals.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by RamaY »

^ so in CATS vs STOBAR situation you either pay for the CAT or STOVL financially ($1b for CAT integration or $50mx30 STOVL fighters) right?

Which technology is easy to master for Indian industry? Which technology less repetition (reproduceability)? Which technology others are willing to share? Which technology has cross platform application? And so on must be the criteria, IMO.

Add time to market to this decision making.

And then make Buy vs Make decision?

On the other hand is it possible to outsource part of the project? If SoKo/Japan/whoever is good at ship building can deliver the basic vessel in 2 yrs then we must go for it and spend that time mastering the other aspects of AC?

If we can integrate a main gun or missile shield from a foreign source why not the main vessel?

Forgive my ignorance if I am making stupid suggestions.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

UK can act smart with vstol because it will never have to fight a 1:1 war in this ships lifetime without the hulking presence of a couple Nimitz class ships nearby while it does the "niche value add thing" as UKstanis like to claim.

there is no point in saving $3b with a smaller 40kt carrier vs a 60kt carrier because our carrier has to deal not just with hostile cheen carrier forces but land based planaf aviation as well incl H6 and SU30MKK armed with supersonic and subsonic ASMs. you want to go against that with a baby carrier - its a no can do.

a minimum airwing of 40-50 RafaleM/JSF-CTOL/SHornet and 3-4 Hawkeyes will be needed to deal with that lot and the PA2 is designed for that.

however per wiki the french are having 2nd thoughts about following that QE2 template and might change the propulsion to nuclear etc. we should imo stik with the british CODAG RR plant using all-electric propulsion for efficient placement of power plants if it can run a steam generator on the side for the CTOL ops...which I think the PA2 was also designed as.

DCN atleast will eventually get this contract and build some ship. or else tie up with the Brits but make it CTOL on top a big risk since they themselves would not operate it.

Khan does not make any carrier designs of 60kt anymore, so no hopes there...everything there is oriented to XXL and nuclear plants.it work for their philosophy and system and nobody else.

also pls be aware that some rumors of Cheen already laid the keel couple years back of a varyag clone. we can expect it to complete in say 8 yrs time, so by 2025 we will have 2 x cheen carrier strike groups to deal with. wont scare khan, but a worry for us.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maz »

Op Demo Kochin today

Request to all BRF ppl in Kochi. Please get your cameras and take pix of the ships and aircraft that will take part in todays Op Demo. Afterwards, post on BR please.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by kit »

China could have more than 2 carrier groups in a decade. IAC 3 should come online by then ! And size does matter as it would need long range surveillance as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Brando »

Don't know if this was posted earlier.


Arihant to begin Sea-Trials soon : Navy Boss
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sea- ... 36252.html
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Post by Philip »

The issue (launch and recovery system) is a complex one.depending upon the type of aircraft and system chosen,one is able to establish the force projection capability of the carrier and its airborne assets.For ex. a STOVL fighter using STOBAR will be able to carry a lesser payload than a Cat launched aircraft,but the carrier needs not to sail into the wind" when launching and recovering aircraft.The ski-jump on the bow has also been found to give the vessel better sea-keeping qualities,esp. in rough weather.So the pluses and minuses can be juggled around.The most important factor is the cost of a Cat carrier,cost of cats and extra engine power for the system.This is enormous and one could perhaps afford two STOBAR carriers for the price of one cat carrier.The extra maintenance costs also add upto to lifecycle costs for cat carriers.It is why the USN uses nuclear powered super-carriers which carry enormous firepower,with great reach and at least a 4 decade lifespan.

The USN is now embarking upon an RMA in maritime warfare with the advent of UCAVs,which when perfected operating from carriers,may reduce the size of super-carriers.add to this the rail-gun development and one is going to see a lot of new tech and tactics by 2020.With our very own UCAV undre development,the IN should also be a stakeholder,as a smaller carrier asset will be a boon for medium sized navies such as thr IN which will only operate carriers of a max. of 65K t in the forseeable future.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Ramay ji you are as it is qualify as FOC for Naval related affairs like Janes


A little more vfrquent periscope depth sailing in this thread you will be FOSC for. janes

FOC flag officer commanding

FOWSC from our own special correspondent

You are now at the level of cosy Joseph of times of Indira aka TOILet
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by RamaY »

:mrgreen:

Getting there.... Slowly but surely.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

As an aside,just check out this report which says that operating a Collins class conventional sub has cost OZ twice as much as a USN nuclear boat!

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-new ... 2b3zb.html

Keeping Collins afloat ludicrous: expert
December 10, 2012 David Ellery
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 548668.cms

Wish our Service Chiefs would do such plainspeaking when they are in office...but hey better late than never!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

Collins class being unique , Aus is forced to pay a lot to HDW and their local suppliers with no economy of scale.

thats why U216 looks more risky to me. nobody else needs it except perhaps brazil, who are in ties with DCN.
same for the S80 of navantia...how many can spain buy?1 or 2?

japan funds their navy lavishly in comparison, 5 soryus are already built and 4 are building.

looking at lack of propeller in this boat, might have a pumpjet propulsor also
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/img ... 0951_0.jpg
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