Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Dec 2012 19:51

I don't think, there would be many young Indian ladies willing to share any traumatic experiences of sexual harassment with us here on a public forum. I may be wrong, but lets keep the delicacy of the subject in mind.

Though I too agree, that more women need to bring the unacceptability of this behavior to public attention.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 19:51

harbans wrote:Arjun Ji i can't keep repeating myself. But this aspect i have been mentioning often. The Big Gorilla in the room: Bollywood. That of all major Icons in all major films spreading one way of winning girls: That through stalking, harassment, lewdness. Big B to Satyameva Aamir. If people have not been able to grasp why in our society it's natural and prevalent for a youngster to ask a girl..aaja meri pajero mein beth ja, or arrey yeh chali chamakcholo, or cannot relate the lewdness in our society so hooked to Bollywood and it's icons, then i suggest they rethink and then think again. They must learn to co relate. This one can see in daily news items, girls spurns suitor and then girl attacked with acid. Time and again women have been subject to lewd comments considered par for the course, fun yaar..mazaak kar rahe the. Who popularized that stalking and harassing women is the right way? Bollywood. I am referring to a massive section of our youth, segregated crowd, basti wala's and so on. It runs across the religious, caste or rural/ urban divide.

Harbans ji - let me first say that I am not really a big fan of the aesthetic quality of Bollywood myself, and in the ones that I do watch, the romance genre is probably the one I am least inclined to (unlike my wife though !).

Any outright portrayal of stalking, harassment etc is something the industry needs to voluntarily curtail...but I wonder really how much of that is really the case. For example - I am not aware of any lewd meaning of Chammak Challo - if there are folks who misuse the song for the purpose of harassment, I am not sure if the blame can really be transferred to the song as such.

I have been told there are idiots like some Honey Singh who openly sings about balaatkaar and stuff - now that is something that needs to be cut out. Beyond examples that are as blatant - I am not too sure Bollywood can seriously be blamed. It is possible a lot of the lyrics are mangled and misused by stalkers - but that would be the same as saying alcohol was misused for the Delhi case and calling for prohibition.

I do support though - any initiative of Bollywood to critically examine the value systems they promote, directly or indirectly in their movies, and come up with a voluntary set of guidelines.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 31 Dec 2012 20:01

Theo_Fidel wrote:It can happen remarkably quick. So. Ko. went from arranged marriage to personal responsibility from 1940's to 1970's. One generation.

So US does not have or probably has negligible arranged marriage. So is the no of rapes in US less than India. Lawhori logic at its best

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 20:02

RajeshA wrote:I don't think, there would be many young Indian ladies willing to share any traumatic experiences of sexual harassment with us here on a public forum. I may be wrong, but lets keep the delicacy of the subject in mind.

Though I too agree, that more women need to bring the unacceptability of this behavior to public attention.

RajeshA, I specifically said 'perspectives'. (I put 'experiences' in parenthesis for this specific reason).

Perspectives = opinions, ideas. For example, we are discussing solutions...what is their view point on the solutions being discussed so sincerely here. Does it match what they think. Perhaps they have their own solutions which is different from anything proposed here?

Specific experiences, I agree, need not and perhaps should not be posted on a public forum that can be read from Tanjore to Timbuktu.

Advait · Post by **Advait** » 31 Dec 2012 20:18

I can see that the usual suspects ( no need to name names here) are out to denigrate Hindu culture as usual and advocating social engineering.

The solution is pretty simple: make law & order a high priority so that swift and harsh justice is delivered and teach women (and men for that matter) self defense. Let them at least carry nonlethal weapons.

As for "wimmin feeling safer in Amerika", if the western countries, esp America is so safe then why are there so many rapes reported there in the first place. Percentage wise they may be less than what is believed(believed is the key word here) to be the real percentage in India. But the figure is still pretty high.

And for these Indian women who feel safe there, let them go stay in some ghetto, alone and unarmed, roam around late at night wearing short clothes. Then lets see if they say the same thing.

Nuff said!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 20:30

Ah! Yes we are off on the India is more dharmic argument. (or as Rahulm has memorably called it the shri shri's)

The darn country is NOT safe for women and folks are all convinced that modernity is a curse.

Pray tell bhai log how you make India safe for women without embracing modernity. Enquiring minds want to know.
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This business of comparing rape statistics in the west with India has to stop. It is pretty much troll like behavior now after it has been repeatedly eviscerated for the misleading nonsense it is. Simply attempts to mislead by the usual suspects as well.
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Advait wrote:And for these Indian women who feel safe there, let them go stay in some ghetto, alone and unarmed, roam around late at night wearing short clothes. Then lets see if they say the same thing.

And what sort of nonsense is this. Honestly it is this sort of behavior that makes Indian women feel uncomfortable around our men.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 31 Dec 2012 20:34

If modernity would ensure safety of women then why would there by any rapes in first world countries in Europe and in USA, if at all, in this age and day? Makes no sense of modernity aiding women's safety as an assured way at all. In fact many rapes get ignored especially if the rapists are high profile. What has that got to do with modernity.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 31 Dec 2012 20:41

People are fighting their own devils. First and foremost is political accountability, next comes police accountability and last but not the least is judicial accountability. If people know that they cannot get away with a crime, no matter how moral/immoral/modern/medieval they are individually, they will not cross the line in most cases.

Those who think that switching to love marriages will fix this problem do not want to see the reality.

Advait · Post by **Advait** » 31 Dec 2012 20:45

Theo, a lot of people have raised some valid points here wrt your claims. Why don't you answer them? If love marriage and sensativity training are the key solutions then there should hardly be any rapes/sexual abuse in the west, no?
Please unlighten us heathens and pagans here.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 20:46

Theo_Fidel wrote:This business of comparing rape statistics in the west with India has to stop. It is pretty much troll like behavior now after it has been repeatedly eviscerated for the misleading nonsense it is. Simply attempts to mislead by the usual suspects as well.

Theo, this is getting tiresome.

Until we have the damn data in hand there is absolutely no way of knowing if there are cultural elements in India that are responsible, or cultural elements of the famed 'Ganga Jamuni' synthetic culture of Delhi/UP is the one to be blamed, or if elements of Westernization seeping into India is responsible. The argument can go any one of these three ways depending on what the actual data says.

As of now, the statistics point to 12X difference in rape statistics between India and the the US (in favour of India), and a Christian-majority state in India as the rape capital of the country - but clearly we need to mount an offensive to capture correct data first and then we can determine the correct implication.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 21:04

Yup! India is safest country in the world for women. Christianity is the worst thing to happen to women. And for good measure all the American women can come to India to save themselves from rape.

What can one say at this point. It would all be laughably tragic comic if the enormous economic and social price India is paying was not in front of us.

As before folks, nothing to see....

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 21:05

All I can say is that women get their vengeance on us and India, one way or the other....

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 21:13

Guys...this thread is close to getting derailed. This is a solutions thread, so while is justifiable that the nature of a proposed solution be discussed, we will not be able to hash out arranged vs. love marriage or west vs. east cultural issues in the next 1 week (or month).

For any solution that is proposed, I say, we ask for specifics of implementation, and look at the timeframes. If it takes two decades to implement, the question is: what will happen in the interim. More rapes? That is reason enough for us to focus away from arranged vs. love and all that. harbans has proposed something. That could be discussed (will post my thoughts later). If anyone has better ideas, do post.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 21:14

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yup! India is safest country in the world for women. Christianity is the worst thing to happen to women. And for good measure all the American women can come to India to save themselves from rape.

What can one say at this point. It would all be laughably tragic comic if the enormous economic and social price India is paying was not in front of us.

As before folks, nothing to see....

If you are referring to my post, and if the part bolded above is what you believe is the gist of my argument - then that tells us more about you than the other way around.

Can we stick to data and logic and cut out all the 'perception' based analysis on this thread please?

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 31 Dec 2012 21:15

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yup! India is safest country in the world for women. Christianity is the worst thing to happen to women. And for good measure all the American women can come to India to save themselves from rape.

What can one say at this point. It would all be laughably tragic comic if the enormous economic and social price India is paying was not in front of us.

As before folks, nothing to see....

Hmmm, No one here stated that India is the safest country for women. Why is it that a simple question like 'why inspite of complete westernization there is such a huge number of rapes in the western countries' brings a completely emotional response from the extreme like ' Christianity is the worst thing to happen to women. And for good measure all the American women can come to India to save themselves from rape.'

From lots of your posts in the past it is clear that women's issues and safety is close to your heart. I certainly hope that you can see past whatever experience you have had personally and look at the bigger picture. Your inputs can really be beneficial.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 31 Dec 2012 21:19

Instead of finding solutions , some people here are saying that we should follow this or that formula, because it is done in west. Because some people they know feel safe, while many here have been saying that number of rapes in US is more than in India.
Maybe the solution is something else. You can make the opposite sex interact with each other from cradle, but still some may not have respect for one another.
It is more a combination of upbringing, interaction, good laws, applying the good laws etc.

Also one social solution may not fit all regions of India.
One major underlying reason could be Girls are seen as some kind of commodity in some parts of India, not as human beings. I do not know if this was there before or it is an explosion in recent times because of the commodification of woman in entertainment media.

Before suggesting the solution, first identify the problem(s) of why society has become this way. I am sure it would be different for India and US.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 21:25

Folks,

I'm going to layoff the arranged marriage thing. I don't see a way past removing it if we are to progress but it is JMT. I would point out that not a single one of the advanced countries has kept it in shape or form other than the Rev. Moon type wacko's in So Ko. So we are up against a ton of history here.

So lets hear your solutions. Lets see what you think needs to be done to make India safer for women.

Or is it that like some folks here we pretend that India is safest of all and it is just perception.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 31 Dec 2012 21:28

another probable idiot simply because he says US is not far off in terms of worst rape and sexual assault statistics. How come US the gold standard be bad at all?

For a not so educated like me(gaowaala/gawaad) this seems a reasonable article and a very good article.

View: Is Rape a new Development Indicator?

If rapes are rising dramatically in India over the last 20 years, is it logical to blame traditional Indian culture, asks Sankrant Sanu.

The brutal gang-rape in Delhi , leading to the death of a young woman, is both sad and shocking. However, the responses to this event have been predictable. Some of these blame the culture, others blame the justice system; some advocate draconian punishments, while others wring their hands saying nothing will change.

Most of them, however, appear to look at this gang-rape as a uniquely Indian aberration. A recent op-ed in Times of India ('No country for young women') goes as far as to say, 'It's only in India that gang rapes are uploaded as MMS clips... indicative of a social pathology that is specific to us.'

These responses are both factually incorrect and analytically lazy -- and prevent us from both understanding our problems as well as having any hope of solving them.

First, the facts. Not long ago, 18 men in Texas, including five students of Cleveland High School and the 21-year old son of a school board member, gang raped an 11-year-old girl for several hours.

The crime was discovered when a student alerted a teacher to a video made on a cell phone that was being circulated in the school. So the Times of India has its 'only in India' facts wrong. Nor is this an isolated incident. The number of rapes in the United States is unimaginably high.

The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, conducted by a US government agency, reported that nearly 20% of women in the US had experienced rape or attempted rape and one in four reported had been beaten by an intimate partner. This provides at least one counterpoint to much of the dubious analysis that is being circulated around, so let us examine the arguments bandied about.

1. Rape is a result of gender bias that results in a skewed sex ratio. Vivek Kaul claims the rapes are linked to India's gender ratio -- 'We kill our women before birth, after birth and keep killing them as they grow up. In a society like this it is not surprising that men grow up with terribly demented minds and commit heinous rapes like the one in Delhi.' There is no evidence of gender ratio causing rape.

The United States has a gender ratio of more than 1 female per male and it still has a very high rate of rape. To say Indians have a more 'demented mind' would be amusingly racist if such ill-informed explanations were less commonplace.

2. Rape is a result of the government system. While I am in strong agreement that the Government of India, including the administration and police force, needs radical reform, rape is not the result of the deficiencies of the system.

The criminal justice system in the United States works reasonably well and the responsiveness of its police force is light years ahead of India, yet this does not prevent an estimated million plus rapes that take place there each year, only a fraction of which are reported.

3. Draconian punishment to the rapists is the way to address the problem. People have suggested everything from the death sentence to chemical castration. It is ironic that all these commentators have missed the plea of one of the confessed perpetrators of the recent Delhi incident -- Mujhe faansi de do (Please hang me).'

Where then is the deterrent? Those that are committing this crime of passion are not sitting back coolly and contemplating consequences. Draconian punishment is like locking the stable after the horse has bolted.

It may satisfy anger and evoke retribution, but will it really reduce crimes of passion. And do we really want to give the corrupt state apparatus more power over its citizens?

What then is the problem?

Researchers in the United States have looked at the culture of rape in American society. This is related to the objectification of women, of treating women as sex objects and of the 'jock' culture in American high schools and American sports.

If rapes are rising dramatically in India over the last 20 years, is it logical to blame traditional Indian culture?

To co-relate with something that is growing we need to find another factor that is growing in the same time period (or negative co-relate with something that is diminishing).

Traditional culture has hardly grown to explain the growth in rape, but Western-style consumerism has definitely kept apace.

Perhaps we should look at giant billboards of scantily clad women and television ads of women as sultry seductresses being used to sell everything from soap to mobile phones. The consumer culture is producing a steady barrage of overtly sexual messages, something that is also true in the United States.

At the same time society is caught in a bind between the repressed sexuality of the Catholic nuns that educate our elite in 'convent schools' and the freshly-imported IPL cheerleaders raising bare legs to show off their coloured underwear, American jock culture style.

But this is progress and development, of course, and perhaps it is time to add the increase in number of rapes per capita to 'development indicators' such as hospital births and the number of televisions per household per capita streaming in these messages.

This culture of objectifying women -- in the non-stop commercialisation of sexuality, in importing the 'cheerleader culture' of the United States in the IPL and in the increasingly brazen 'item numbers' in Indian movies -- is symptomatic of this objectification.

While we commercialise sexuality, sex itself is kept under lock and key. The social elite push for raising the age of consent and the age of marriage and keep prostitution illegal.

What that means is that we have a modern culture which is saturated with sexual messages, while at the same time, making it more difficult to consummate desire.

This schizophrenic approach of our 'convent-educated' elite -- combining the repressed sexual morality of the nuns with media messages copied from the women-objectifying jock culture of America -- creates an unsustainable sexual tension.

Along with the increasingly sexualised mass media message we hold old-fashioned Catholic values such as keeping prostitution illegal. In traditional society, public women served as a safe regulated outlet for sexuality.

A study by the Independent Institute found that legalising prostitution could decrease the rate of rape by as much as 25 per cent. However, our convent-educated Victorian morality does not allow us to consider realistic solutions.

In Indian villages, the marriage age was also traditionally lower, allowing people to be sexually active in a marriage setting at a younger age. In the agrarian rural society, a lower marriage age makes a lot of sense. However our disconnected social scientists seek to impose their learned values of modernity on a rural populace where they make little sense.

Today Mahatma Gandhi's marriage at thirteen would be illegal and condemned as a perversity. By a recent court ruling he would liable to be tried for rape for consensual sexual relations with Kasturba.

We have a schizophrenic morality -- increasingly permissive of sexual messaging, but stuck in Victorian laws and ideas on sexual relations.

Analysts and social commentators in India have been trained to look at Indian culture as the source of all that is bad. As a result, they are often blind to studying the negative impact of changes that come from the outside.

Violent gang-rape is indeed an aberration in our society, hence the outrage, but it is a good time to examine whether it is time to shed our colonially-inspired laws and values and create a framework based on our own traditions.

Neither Islamic-style laws and burqas or a wholesale import of Western consumerist values or the perpetuation of colonial paradigms is the solution to this dilemma. Nor, of course, will criminal elements ever be eliminated entirely, East or West.

Nonetheless, a realistic understanding of sexuality in society and appreciation of our cultural strengths and differences will help us move towards more mature solutions than the shrill commentary we have heard so far.

Sankrant Sanu is an author and entrepreneur based in Seattle and Gurgaon. He blogs at sankrant.org.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 21:32

^^^^

The fact that people think that that is a good article says more than I ever could.

Really... ..younger marriage is the solution.. ...one is at a loss for words...

In Indian villages, the marriage age was also traditionally lower, allowing people to be sexually active in a marriage setting at a younger age. In the agrarian rural society, a lower marriage age makes a lot of sense. However our disconnected social scientists seek to impose their learned values of modernity on a rural populace where they make little sense.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 21:33

This is along the lines of what harbans had proposed, i.e. to somehow sensitize the average abdul about behavior towards women. About 5 years ago, I had the occassion to meet with Kiran Bedi, IPS, she had come to our vicinity to make a speech and promote her book.

I had the chance to ask her only one question...and asked her about how condition for women in public could be improved (the subtext here was eve-teasing and related crimes). Her comment was along the lines of 'boys have to be taught about this at home and school'. So, this goes with the cultural thing that we are discussing. However, the problem with this is implementation and time frame. How can it be done and how long will it take. And what will happen in the interim. It would take an act of Lok Sabha to incorporate a class for high schools students and bring it into the curriculum, and something similar for college students. It sounds very daunting and long-term. And anything that we rely on the Lok Sabha to do has the potential to go long-term. Something like changing school curriculum will be a can of worms. There's central board and state board. It will go on for ever.

If the proposal is to do this more informally, how do we even execute this? Say, youths from a mohalla get together say that they will not allow such behavior pass by un-challenged? And try to inculcate this among friends and others? VikramS posted a tweet a page or two ago from a General who has asked for volunteers from each locality do so something like this. PErhaps this is a start?

Hence, my focus on something that's executable in the short term i.e. changes in police procedure, crime fighting, crime prevention, faster trials etc (but not to the exclusion of anything long-term, if indeed both can be executed.).

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 31 Dec 2012 21:43

The proposition of more westernization, christianization and prostitutization of women as solution is at best an agenda based propaganda and at worst a sadistic-destruction based proposals. Impossible to force or implements and will make room for secret karl-krux-clan type khap panchayats.

Instead of thinking a realistic near term practical soultions, folks using the unfortunate situation as an opportunity are trying hit below the belt.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 21:46

SriKumar wrote: i.e. to somehow sensitize the average abdul about behavior towards women.

The question to ask is what is the payoff for the average abdul.

Knowing the jungle folk, they only do these things if it improves their marriage chances or they can make more money.
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Yup.

Now we have westernization, christianization and prostitutization in the same sentence. Nice going.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 21:50

Reposting a post from ManjaM about a person in Bangalore who actually did something about this. And he reports that it did bring down the incidence of eve-teasing his area. A desi solution for a problem in desh. Posting some excerpts:

http://www.banwasi.com/html/ete1.html

The only way an eve teaser can be caught is if passers by who witness him indulging in such an act react. One cannot wait for the police to be on the prowl at every street corner all the time awaiting acts of eve teasing, the sad fact is that not many eve teasers are bought to book. The police see through the seemingly innocent pleas of an eve teaser and take stern action against these shameless offenders, but that is only when the matter comes to their notice or eve teasers are brought to them by public action.

In fact the advice that they have for all victims of eve teasing and all supporters of this cause is: Lash out against it in some way. Assert that this uncouth act will not be tolerated. Make sure that culture is shown on the roads, for the base few, teach them that they will not be let free if they disrespect women. People will support you if you show strength.

This speaks to the right-thinking aam janata ...that they should be more aware and involved of their surroundings. However, there have been several cases of people rendering assistance being killed (Punjab, Mumbai). I really dont know what to say about such situations....if they have political patronage, the game is completely different. But a lot of eve-teasers/harassers do not have political or goonda connections....just guys either alone or in groups of 3-4, doing their thing unchalleged. (brishaspati had something to say about challenging this behavior. I think he speaks from first-hand experience).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 22:06

Srikumar,

In rural areas who do you think is the majority.

Sometimes I feel like the only fool advocating these position in rural TN. I certainly would not risk my life over an eve teasing incident. About a dozen times I have intervened during an assault type situation, don't remember them all. I'm sad to say it was 50/50 if I succeeded. About half the times it was husband/x-husband & wife type situations.

The only thing that has worked for me is to claim that the property belongs to me and tell the porukhi's to get of my land or I'll get my thugs to go after them. That usually calms them down enough, turning it into a potential property dispute, to get cold blood flowing and I can snag the victim. But not always.

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 31 Dec 2012 22:12

Theo_Fidel wrote:^^^^

The fact that people think that that is a good article says more than I ever could.

Really... ..younger marriage is the solution.. ...one is at a loss for words...

In Indian villages, the marriage age was also traditionally lower, allowing people to be sexually active in a marriage setting at a younger age. In the agrarian rural society, a lower marriage age makes a lot of sense. However our disconnected social scientists seek to impose their learned values of modernity on a rural populace where they make little sense.

So that one sentence discredits all the other facts that the article quoted?

I accept that lowering age of marriage will not stop rape. But can you accept that putting a stop to arranged marriages and westernizing wont stop too?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 31 Dec 2012 22:16

The prevalence and acceptability of courtship marriage as we understand it today, based solely on individual notions of "compatibility", "love" etc., are historically a relatively new development even in European society. The term "date" origninated in 1820s America and is associated with prostitution (wiki). Based on available data, a case could be made that such marriages result in increased intolerance, divorce and violence.

In India, what we refer to as "arranged marriages" are actually "forced marriages" and are not as common as they once were (in a much more peaceful society). What we refer to as "arranged marriages" today are actually a form of courtship marriage where both parties have an opportunity to at least get acquainted before taking the plunge. This is now becoming common even in the most remote Indian village. This type of marriage is simply a way to maintain the chastity of young people.

Social violence of all types is perpetrated by the strong on the weak in general. Its a human condition and its prevention lies in society convincing the strong that unacceptable violence will have painful consequences. The level of success this convincing brings is dependent on how painful these consequences are percieved to be. Social influencers like bollywood could have some bearing but otherwise it is a simple law & order situation.

Let's fix the police, judicial and political systems.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 31 Dec 2012 22:17

Another bs is about legalizing prostitution and also blaming the India culture while proposing the legalizing of prostitution. Devadasi system was nothing but legalized prostitution in the good olden days. India abolished it and now we are wearing soot boot and visiting west for few years and sit on a cofee table and talk in angrezi to tell an angrezi-term.

(again don't jump on me and tell that I am proposing to restore devadasi system).

I am just pointing out how India wants to ape the west for solutions instead to look inside what went wrong.

The huge bs about arrange marriages - It is again how you look at it. 75% of western marriages are arranged. Match.com, dating sites (good olden days before internet the looking for advertisements in the dating pages), dating arrangements, clubs, paid clubs etc. are all nothing but arranged marriages. Someone will counter this argument with caste. In the west the advertisement will be "white blonde scottish catholic looking for white in 30 to 35 age range ...". What difference is this with Indian arranged marriages?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2012 22:19

I think the first steps should be to fix, the police, laws, the politicians. We can then talk about later steps.. By demanding putting the cart before the horse folks are not realistic or have other goals.

Eg. Mahesh Butt and his comments on Hindu temples in context of the gang rape.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 31 Dec 2012 22:23

South Africa has a 'rape crisis' where 1 in 4 men have admitted to having carried out a sexual assault. Maybe we can learn something from SA about (i) motives of rapists, (ii) how to prevent rape. See, for example, the story below as well as the comments from around the world:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8115219.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8107039.stm

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 Dec 2012 22:25

Are we trying to find a set of remedies or solutions to the problem that is our own.
I think it is irrelevant to compare Indian stat with other countries and say it is safe or unsafe. If we ( or women) feel it is safe then it is safe.

And solution has to be found within our culture and not what or how other countries have done it. AT best that may be a pointer. But we must see how we can find our solutions.

Delhi Case falls in a particular type of case which occurs only less than 10% of the time. What has shocked us is that it was not simply a crime of passion but something beyond that. It was indeed penal, sadistic . Use of spanner or abdominal disfigurement is beyond comprehension.

That shows that the whole group was of sick mentality had dysfunctional background and that went undetected. We have no system to detect such danger signals within the society.

We have been concentrating on physical ailments . What about such psychological disorders. How could we detect that such men are danger to normal people and need to be put in some sort of watch programme or rehabilitation centres or Psychological clinics. Not allowed to roam free.
JMT.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 22:26

Yogendra,

What facts, other than some middle aged male pontificating about how India is soo-pee-rear and hence is all perfect already.

This sort of thinking is endemic to India. The vast majority of males think this way.

Yet here we are, in the how to make India safe for women thread.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 Dec 2012 22:27

Nithari case too went undetected. We could not notice the danger lurking around the corner.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 31 Dec 2012 22:36

A good site on the rape crisis in SA:

http://rapecrisis.org.za/rape-in-south-africa/

Rape is about a lack of respect for women

Communities are aware that rape is wrong. They know that it is a criminal offence. However, within a context in which men believe they own women they feel justified in their actions. Like any property that they own, they may be aware that they are misusing it but don’t see the need to stop.

Rape is about power. Women’s rights scare men

Women were also targets of gang rape if they are perceived to be aloof. This suggests women who are outspoken, assertive and in control of their lives. Men rape them to show them their place. Men and women blamed women’s rights and political freedom for the rise of rape within their communities. They spoke about the past with nostalgia, claiming that previously rape did not occur because men practised poligamy and women didn’t behave like whites.

Men and women lack skills to communicate about sex in relationships

Men and women feel sex is a duty. There is no communication about sex. This creates fertile ground for rape to occur in relationships. It also shows the challenge in expecting women to negotiate for safe sex within relationships.

Rape is about instant gratification and entitlement

The Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation claim that in their experience working with survivors and perpetrators of rape, there seems to be an emerging pattern of an entitlement to instant gratification and release of sexual energies. It seems to be an explanation of why the age of rape survivors is dropping and why many cases of fathers sleeping with their own daughters are on the rise.

The report claims that youth who have raped claim that they did so out of boredom. The fact that they may have raped a six- year old does not bother them. It seems women and children fall prey of this sense of instant pleasure and gratification that blinds men from realising that what they are doing is wrong. A man who had raped his daughter claimed that he felt like sex and since his wife was at a night vigil he was entitled to the daughter. There seems to be a total lack of self-control in such cases. The participants in the focus groups referred to this lack of a sense of right and wrong as ill wind that is blowing within the communities. Women expressed this by saying that their men have turned into real dogs.

Rape happens within a context of lawlessness and corruption

In a study conducted by Rhodes University with rape convicts, 84%of felony rapists had prior convictions. The study defines felony rapists who operate alone or in a gang. They usually come from disrupted or broken families and exhibit early patterns of delinquency. The study also shows that they show little remorse for their actions. Participants also claim that police collude with perpetrators. Some claim that a perpetrator only needs R1000 for the police to destroy a rape docket.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 22:37

What is the situation with that Nithari case BTW. Wasn't it a death penalty as well?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Dec 2012 22:39

chaanakya ji,

I agree. The solutions to be found, need to be Indian. Many of us living abroad start comparing situations between their countries of residence and India, and think what works there would work in India often forgetting that those countries have their own woes to deal with. Sure it is helpful to propose solutions but their attitudes of dissing India wholesale and saying nothing works in India often becomes childish.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 31 Dec 2012 22:48

Theo ji & rahulm ji why dont you guys get the rapes in your own adopted countries sorted out before you tell us Indians to do what we need to do?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 31 Dec 2012 22:51

RajeshA wrote:I don't think, there would be many young Indian ladies willing to share any traumatic experiences of sexual harassment with us here on a public forum. I may be wrong, but lets keep the delicacy of the subject in mind.

Though I too agree, that more women need to bring the unacceptability of this behavior to public attention.

Don't be so quick saar. There are tons of such women, many who have just had it with all the nonsense they have to suffer day in and day out, every single instance when they're out and about. Example 1 - https://www.facebook.com/notes/charanya ... 9528549463

For the non-facebook folks -

A nameless piece, like hundreds of victims
by Charanya Kannan.

I was in my engineering second year. Finished a dance practice at Mylapore, took the legendary 12B bus to go home. I was groped by an asshole in the bus. I was not new to that, I don't think any woman,especially in India,is new to that. I knew exactly how to handle it. I've always handled it that way, ever since the first incident happened when I was in class 6, if anybody touches me I would scream out and call the attention of the bus conductor, the conductor would then ask the man to get down, and I'd be satisfied that I've done by bit as I see the guy humiliated, embarrassed, hiding in his face and running out of the bus, knowing that he would never dare to do it again. So that day, I did the same. Except, this time it was different. The conductor looked up and said "Stand somewhere else, away from him". I was shocked and appalled, and said "What? Ask him to get out of the bus" and as I was saying this, the asshole kissed me, yes in front of everyone, while I was hurling this complaint against him. He curled his lips and gave me this vicious smile which silently said "You are but a helpless woman". I screamed in rage, EVERYONE stood silent. ALL the passengers, stood silently, watching. The conductor looked up and said "Galatta panadha, buss virtu erungu". (Get down form the bus, stop overreacting) I was fuming and burst out in tears as I got down from the bus,I noted down the bus number and went crying to my dad. My dad agreed to take me to the police station. My mother pleaded with us "Are you crazy, why would you take our teenage girl to the police station? Its unsafe ,besides what would people think". Can anyone blame her for thinking that way? So we telephoned the police instead. My father had to use his position -'gazetted officer' to even so much as to get their attention. We said we have the bus number and need to file a FIR against the bus conductor and the driver. We got a call from the police station 10 minutes later, and a lady officer spoke to me. She said " If you press charges, we'd have to suspend the driver and conductor. We would never be able to trace the guy who did that to you anyway. The driver and conductor would complain to their union, and if the union decided to go on a strike , then the issue would be picked up by the media, and your image would unnecessarily be tarnished. My suggestion is to just forget it". And thats what I've tried doing, tried forgetting it for the last 8 years. But I still remember his face, that sadistic smile, that I've been wanting to wipe it from his face forever, but just can't. And when I was discussing this issue in my college with a group of friends, a random guy who overheard it actually said " What sort of a girl is she, why would she speak in public about all this". THIS. THIS is exactly the problem with our country. It wasn't wrong for the guy to have done that, but it is wrong that I spoke about it. A dutiful girl should have kept it a secret and carried on with her life. Even now, I'm very sure my mom would call me from India and ask why I publish notes like these. A bunch of people reading this are invariably bound to think how "unwomanly" it is for me to write all this. And a few people reading this would probably think "Wonder what dress she wore in the bus". Thats why I specified dance class in the first line- Indian classical dance implies wearing Chudithar with Dupataa. I read a blog on this issue where the author had to issue a disclaimer "..want to clarify that not all of the examples of harassment or abuse I mentioned in the post involved me directly.." Because we get judged for writing these. Its easier to speak in third person. Its almost quite impossible for any girl in India ot have escaped such experiences. But no one speaks about it. And thats the inception for trouble. What happened to me was nothing, nothing at all, in light of what so many other women undergo in the country.
I'm probably not even thinking right when writing this, I'm just really depressed when I heard the news about that girl who died today. I may regret writing this tomorrow, as the society does expect me to be ashamed for speaking out. I could be termed 'Dented-painted".
But still, a few arbid thoughts that come to my mind right now:
While this rape case is being discussed extensively on electronic media, a 17 year old girl has committed suicide, as the officers were trying to convince her to withdraw the case, by casting aspirations on her character and asking her to marry the rapist.Should I be happy that the officer I spoke to was at least courteous to me? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... _ref=world.
These are the views about 'rape' expressed by our politicians, in the last one year. A sordid compliation. These are our law makers, what co you expect from others?This made me nauseous. I'm not sure what else to say about this. http://ibnlive.in.com/news/rape-sexual- ... 791-3.html.
Everybody in korea wears skirts, the length of it being so tiny that it would not even qualify it as a skirt in India. Yet there is no eve teasing here. NO EVE TEASING. People drink, a lot. Girls drink, a LOT. They drink till 4 am. They hang out with guys. Yet girls don't get raped, they don't even so much as get stared at or judged. People eat a lot of chow mien here, yet there is no hormonal problem.
A few months ago I posted this image of a girl, who's face was charred when a guy hurled acid at her face, because she refused to humour him. When I published this photo, I got two messages from friends saying "We log into Facebook to see happy stuff, that image totally put me off, stop posting such gruesome stuff". I apologize in advance to those people who find such a compelling desire to stay away from news of this sort.Please live in your happy fairy tale land. And please don't read the next point.
Engineering 3rd year. Gajalakshmi Prabhakaran came a little shaken to college that day. I asked her why. Her mother is a nurse. Apparently the previous day, her mother saw a one year girl, a tiny little girl, brought bleeding and dead to her hospital. Apparently the father of the girl raped her. The little baby was dead in her mothers arms. Gajalakshmi's mother was helpless and tormented. So were we, on hearing the news. The same thing has happened again, this time the tiny one is 2.5 years old. http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_2- ... es_1781807. The case handled by Gajalakshmi's mother was never quite reported in the media. I'm sure there are hundreds of nameless 2 year girls who die every year.
My undergraduate college was very liberal in a conservative city, there were no 'dress codes'. Yet when girls wore kurtas and jeans to college, they invariable earned the names 'bitch' and 'slut' and 'pros' by fellow classmates. I was stunned and always wrapped myself in a dupatta for the next 3 years of college. When I see some of those guys' photographs on Facebook, I now smile, as they're standing next to a wife/grilfriend wearing jeans. Does that mean there is hope after all?
Speaking about dress, how can you blame the poor guys of Tamilnadu when the youth icon, actor Vijay makes such crass third rate movies ? (I know I can be admonished by Vijay fans for this). Check out this scene where he tells Asin, that if she dresses in a sari, men would worship her. Seriously vijay? Do you want to know some statistics about women who wear a sari and get raped? Our stupid censor board which censors even a simple kiss scene from an english movie, lets such chauvinistic movies make their bucks. Do watch this video, it comes with english subtitles. And remember to hate it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g9c9FNJ89M
A few years back the rebel in me would have died to return to India to fight injustice. Now I'm just glad I'm away form that place. I'm thinking twice if my daughter should grow up there.
All my dear friends in Delhi /Gurgaon, please leave that wretched place as soon as possible. I love you all too much.
I've already given a few shout outs to this, but I guess this is the opportune moment, when everyone is keen on doing something. Go ahead, read this blog by Sunitha Krishnan, She was raped by 5 men when she was 15 years old, yet she survived. She not just survived, but has been fighting against sex trafficking through her organization @Prajwala (its a community on fb tagged in this note). Please support that. http://sunithakrishnan.blogspot.kr/. Do spend half an hour reading her various articles.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 Dec 2012 23:01

Ok now that we need to fix Legal system, Judicial system, The police and the Politician ( in the short term)

Here is the definition of rape in IPC and related clauses

Section 375. Rape

1[375. Rape.—A man is said to commit “rape” who, except in the case hereinafter excepted, has sexual intercourse with a woman under circumstances falling under any of the six following descriptions:—

First.— Against her will.

Secondly.—Without her consent.

Thirdly.— With her consent, when her consent has been obtained by putting her or any person in whom she is interested in fear of death or of hurt.

Fourthly.—With her consent, when the man knows that he is not her husband, and that her consent is given because she believes that he is another man to whom she is or believes herself to be lawfully married.

Fifthly.— With her consent, when, at the time of giving such consent, by reason of unsoundness of mind or intoxication or the administration by him personally or through another of any stupefying or unwholesome substance, she is unable to understand the nature and consequences of that to which she gives consent.

Sixthly.— With or without her consent, when she is under sixteen years of age.

Explanation

Penetration is sufficient to constitute the sexual intercourse necessary to the offence of rape.

Exception.—Sexual intercourse by a man with his own wife, the wife not being under fifteen years of age, is not rape.]

STATE AMENDMENT

Manipur

(a) in clause sixthly, for the word “sixteen” substitute the word “fourteen”; and

(b) in the Exception, for the word “fifteen” substitute the word “thirteen”.

[Vide Act 30 of 1950, sec. 3 (w.e.f. 16-4-1950) (made earlier than Act 43 of 1983)].

COMMENTS

Absence of injury on male organ of accused

Where a prosecutrix is a minor girl suffering from pain due to ruptured hymen and bleeding vagina depicts same, minor contradictions in her statements they are not of much value, also absence of any injury on male organ of accused is no valid ground for innocence of accused, conviction under section 375 I.P.C. proper; Mohd. Zuber Noor Mohammed Changwadia v. State of Gujarat, 1999 Cr LJ 3419 (Guj).

Penetration

Mere absence of spermatozoa cannot cast a doubt on the correctness of the prosecution case; Prithi Chand v. State of Himachal Pradesh, (1989) Cr LJ 841: AIR 1989 SC 702.

Please to note that use of spanner is not rape. It galls under causing griveous injury in an attempt to kill. Culpable Homicide.

Section 299. Culpable homicide

Who ever causes death by doing an act with the intention of causing death, or with the intention of causing such bodily injury as is likely to cause death, or with the knowledge that he is likely by such act to cause death, commits the offence of culpable homicide.

But we need to see if it could constitute murder since there was a time gap between the act and the death.

So let us see what murder is.

Section 300. Murder

Except in the cases hereinafter excepted, culpable homicide is murder, if the act by which the death is caused is done with the intention of causing death, or—

Secondly.—If it is done with the intention of causing such bodily injury as the offender knows to be likely to cause the death of the person to whom the harm is caused, or—

Thirdly.—If it is done with the intention of causing bodily injury to any person and the bodily injury intended to be inflicted is sufficient in the ordinary course of nature to cause death, or—

Fourthly.—If the person committing the act knows that it is so imminently dangerous that it must, in all probability, cause death or such bodily injury as is likely to cause death, and commits such act without any excuse for incurring the risk of causing death or such injury as aforesaid.

here the use of spanner , consequent bleeding and if true, removal of uterus all point to intention that accused wanted to kill the girl. She also fought and bit the assailants. Finally assailants threw her out. Her dying declaration pointed to the fact that they wanted to kill her. Ferocity of injury leaves none in doubt that the intention was not only to rape but to kill. Subsequently they attempted to destroy all evidence of their crime.

I say the charge of Murder will stick. so They would get rape, Culpable Homicide and Murder all slapped. apart from many others. Ramana garu I hope I have answered your query or doubt.

But in IPC conviction rate is abysmal and we need special laws to cater to sexual assault cases on Women and harsher punishment and relaxed standards for evidence and time bound proceedings, no bail and fast track cases.

Here is the punishment part for Rape cases

Section 376. Punishment for rape

1376. Punishment for rape.—(1) Whoever, except in the cases provided for by sub-section (2), commits rape shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which shall not be less than seven years but which may be for life or for a term which may extend to ten years and shall also be liable to fine unless the woman raped is his own wife and is not under twelve years of age, in which cases, he shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years or with fine or with both:

Provided that the court may, for adequate and special reasons to be mentioned in the judgment, impose a sentence of imprisonment for a term of less than seven years.

(2) Whoever: -

(a) Being a police officer commits rape-

(i) Within the limits of the police station to which he is appointed; or

(ii) In the premises of any station house whether or not situated in the police station to which he is appointed; or

(iii) On a woman is his custody or in the custody of a police officer subordinate to him; or

(b) Being a public servant, takes advantage of his official position and commits rape on a woman in his custody as such public servant or in the custody of a public servant subordinate to him; or

(c) Being on the management or on the staff of a jail, remand home or other place of custody established by or under any law for the time being in force or of a woman's or children's institution takes advantage of his official position and commits rape on any inmate of such jail, remand home, place or institution; or

(d) Being on the management or on the staff of a hospital, takes advantage of his official position and commits rape on a woman in that hospital; or

(e) Commits rape on a woman knowing her to be pregnant; or

(f) Commits rape when she is under twelve years of age; or

(g) Commits gang rape,

Shall be punished with rigorous imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than ten years but which may be for life and shall also be liable to fine:

Provided that the court may, for adequate and special reasons to be mentioned in the judgment, impose a sentence of imprisonment of either description for a term of less than ten years.

Explanation 1

Where a woman is raped by one or more in a group of persons acting in furtherance of their common intention, each of the persons shall be deemed to have committed gang rape within the meaning of this sub-section.

Explanation 2

"Women's or children's institution "means an institution, whether called an orphanage or home for neglected women or children or a widows' home or by any other name, which is established and maintained for the reception and care of women or children.

Explanation: 3

"Hospital" means the precincts of the hospital and includes the precincts of any institution for the reception and treatment of persons during convalescence or of persons requiring medical attention or rehabilitation].

CLASSIFICATION OF OFFENCE

Para I

Punishment—Imprisonment for life or imprisonment for ten years and fine—Cognizable—Non-bailable—Triable by Court of Session—Non-compoundable.

Para II

Punishment—Imprisonment for two years or fine or both—Non-Cognizable—Bailable—Triable by Court of Session—Non-compoundable.

These are neither adequate nor sufficient to deter . First reason is low conviction rate due to lack of sufficient and necessary evidence required for IPC offenses under evidence act. Second, Delay in trial causes the accused to come out on bail and intimidate the victim ( if alive) or witnesses. Once they turn hostile case weakens.
Weak investigations , non following of standard operational procedure, delay in filing FIR, forensic evidence not properly collected etc . The accused know that he would come out hail and hearty with only minor inconveniences to him such as eating human excreta in jail or being sodomised or beaten up.
The victim is consigned to a life long misery and psychological scar and punishment to rebuild her life given the taboo associated with this.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 Dec 2012 23:02

Upshot of all that is that we need special Laws which would have better conviction rate and deterrent value.

next comes implementation We shall examine next.

member_23651 · Post by **member_23651** » 31 Dec 2012 23:05

I think Rahulm not denigrating Indian culture, all he was doing is pointing our hypocrisy in paying lip service to enshrined Dharmic ideals, in actual we are still following confused imposed culture of Islamic hoarders era. And I agree, we will continuously be clubbed into "South Asian" "Middle eastern" club, until we (myself first and formost) have to change our attitudes and learn what our problem is. No I am not asking that we have to follow western world, but putting more into practice what is Dharmic.

Rahulm, I think for every example where passers by stood by gawking an accident victim, crime or a bribery incident, there are examples of plane crashes, train accidents, flood relief, where individual help reached victims first, much before authorities came out of slumber. Question to be asked is why do we hesitate to help in some situations and in some situations people don't hesitate?