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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 00:28 
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Defence forces begin hunt for Tatra truck replacements.

Against the backdrop of a freeze on procurement of Tatra trucks, the Armed Forces have started looking for alternative vehicles to equip them with their missile systems.

In view of Defence Ministry's decision to put on hold the procurement of Tatra trucks pending the CBI probe into allegations of bribery by former Army Chief Gen V K Singh, several key missile projects of the Army and the Air Force have been held up.

The armed forces are looking at trucks being offered by manufacturers from Russia and Belarus including the Volat trucks being offered by a Belarusian firm, defence sources told PTI here today.

Recently, a meeting under Director General (Acquisition) of the Defence Ministry was held with all stakeholders to discuss the issue, they said.

Due to ban on Tatras, several projects including the procurement of land-based version of supersonic cruise missile BrahMos for the IAF and the Army remained stalled along with projects to supply Pinaka missile regiments to the land forces.

If the trucks offered by these firms are accepted, they would be subjected to field trials by the forces and integrated with the missile systems to be put on them.

More than 7,000 Tatra trucks are in service with the armed forces and after the controversy came to light, the Services are also facing issues with their maintenance and repair.

In March 2012, Gen V K Singh had levelled allegations that he was offered a Rs 14 crore bribe by a retired Lt Gen to clear a file related to the procurement of more than 600 Tatra trucks.

After the allegations, Defence Minister A K Antony ordered a CBI probe into it to verify the charges levelled by the former chief and procurement of Tatras was put on hold.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 00:53 
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I do not understand this.

What is so special about the imported trucks. Tata has 8X8, 12X12 offerings. L&T has 8X8 offerings. Mahindra is on the verge of 8X8 offerings. I was checking Tata's 8X8 specs against the Tatra 8X8 specs. They are very comparable.

Then why the import route. Anybody with a technical answer. I know the fetish and the lifafa POV.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 07:26 
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indranil: you mean Ashok Leyland and not L&T ?


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 08:52 
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The armed forces are looking at trucks being offered by manufacturers from Russia and Belarus including the Volat trucks being offered by a Belarusian firm, defence sources told PTI here today.


WTF is wrong here? Why are we again looking at foreign maal when a golden chance has been given to go desi after the tatra millstone has been removed from the neck?


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 10:05 
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Volta was sister company of Maz once.

well if they offer dedicated Telar than it will welcome decision. but I am optimistic and worry of MTCR


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 10:30 
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What do folks think cutting army funds for Note for vote Cash transfer scheme.

Do you think the Govt belives because of Aman ki Asha there will no war

Defence modernization funds cut by Rs 10,000 crore; Army operations may be hit


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 11:23 
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A fool and his cash will soon be parted. If we dont learn to encourage the pvt sector in defence. We will be contunied to be robbed blind. By the arms suppliers.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:21 
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Location: जो हिंदू हित की बात करेगा वही देश पर राज करेगा !!!
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lt-gen-faces-probe-on-exarmy-chief-s-dob-row/1043830/

Quote:
Lt Gen faces probe on ex-Army chief’s DoB row
Manu Pubby : New Delhi, Wed Dec 12 2012, 00:34 hrs

A senior serving Lt Gen is under the scanner after the Defence Ministry directed the Army to “fix responsibility” for an official communication that was contrary to the government’s view on the age row involving former Army chief General V K Singh.

The media communication reportedly released by Lt Gen Sanjeev Madhok in September last year, when he was posted in Army Headquarters as a Maj Gen, allegedly supported Singh’s contention that his year of birth was 1951 and not 1950.

The communication was reportedly sent after the Ministry of Defence decided to consider 1950 as Singh’s year of birth, making him eligible for retirement in May 2012.

It is learnt that the Army conducted an inquiry after the MoD questioned whether the communication on a “personal matter” involving the then Army chief can be considered as a “performance of official duty”.

The inquiry, sources said, was carried out by Lt Gen Amarjeet Singh Chabbewal, the Master General of Ordnance (MGO).

Madhok is currently commanding a corps.

Sources said the inquiry has been completed but the Army has not yet fixed blame for the media communication.

The Army will, however, be under pressure as the Ministry of Defence has now categorically asked the Army to “fix responsibility” for the communication.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 12:28 
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The Lt Gens carrier is finished. He went by the officel records and the crooks went by a dubious record. The crooks won. They will hound who ever followed VKS.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 13:26 
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Pratyush wrote:
The Lt Gens carrier is finished. He went by the officel records and the crooks went by a dubious record. The crooks won. They will hound who ever followed VKS.


This also lets us know about current Chief. Although we were questioned then, it is clear that the chief is not averse to letting politicians interfere with army (as with this and other cases).


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 21:15 
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Why not let the Lt. Gen get to the route of courts for clarity on 'fixing responsibility' part as some kind of ad-hoc criteria, by establishment which itself apparently is clean on diplomacy and policy matters. Let courts decide if one branch of federal govt. can add such ad-hoc criteria in any policy matter for another branch of federal govt.

Can the defense establishment put a criteria of 'fixing responsibility' for govt. in cases such as late acquisitions, corruption, etc.


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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2013 21:16 
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^^^ beginning to sound like an episode of "Homeland"!


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 22:52 
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Location: जो हिंदू हित की बात करेगा वही देश पर राज करेगा !!!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Ex-Army-chief-Gen-VK-Singhs-family-alleges-bugging-attempt-at-house/articleshow/17901991.cms

Quote:
Ex-Army chief Gen VK Singh's family alleges bugging attempt at house

PTI | Jan 5, 2013, 06.45 PM IST

NEW DELHI: High drama was witnessed at the residence of former Army chief Gen VK Singh here on Saturday after a major went there purportedly to remove the Army's telephone exchange but his family alleged that it was an attempt to plant snooping bugs.

The major of the Signals Regiment was "detained" by the family members who called the media to the scene in Mandir Marg in Delhi Cantonment at around 2pm.

They linked it to the withdrawal of the Z-plus security to Gen Singh, who has been at loggerheads with establishment for over a year following controversy related to his age issue.

Gen Singh's family members claimed that Major R Vikram from 1st Signals Regiment entered their house without prior permission and may have been trying to bug their telephones.

"We found him (the major) at the house. They (team) could not give any reasonable logic for being here. They had no valid documents. They may have come to bug the phone. We detained, apprehended him. He revealed his identity as Maj R Vikram from 1st Signals Regiment," said Gen Singh's lawyer Vishwajeet Singh.

Claiming that the Army major and his team had "some cards with them", he said, "Recently they have withdrawn security and now this has happened. There could be something big."

Army sources admitted that the exchange was being removed from the former Army chief's residence as part of the withdrawal of Z-plus security category with effect from November last.

The Army dismissed the allegations of snooping attempt, saying its team had gone there to remove the Army telephone exchange installed there and the issue was created due to communication gap.

"Due to a miscommunication somewhere, a Signals Regiment party went to remove the Army exchange and lines at the Mandir Marg house of Gen VK Singh. Mrs VK Singh objected to the removal of the exchange without prior notice," Army said in a statement.

In deference to her objection, the team returned without removing the exchange.

The house has been provided by the defence ministry for one year from his retirement on May 31 last year.

"There was a communication gap. The Army team had gone there to remove telephone exchange but no prior information was given due to which all this happened," Army PRO Col J Dahiya said.

He said the Army will now carry out the exercise after giving prior information to the family.

Interestingly, Gen Singh has himself been in the midst of a controversy following allegations that during his tenure as Army chief he had used sophisticated off-the-air interceptors to snoop on the officials of Defence Ministry at the height of his age controversy.

The specialized unit Technical Support Division is now in the process of being disbanded.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 04:35 
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^ One thing that has become more and more clear is that Gen VKS certainly upset powerful people who interfere in the forces' matters and see it as a gravy train for filling their own pockets.

This has ceased to be a matter of a serving Chief taking the MoD to court over an official record. Sad state of affairs. Congratulations Congress, you managed to ruin the one institution that worked in this country.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 10:46 
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Nikhil T wrote:
^ One thing that has become more and more clear is that Gen VKS certainly upset powerful people who interfere in the forces' matters and see it as a gravy train for filling their own pockets.

This has ceased to be a matter of a serving Chief taking the MoD to court over an official record. Sad state of affairs. Congratulations Congress, you managed to ruin the one institution that worked in this country.


Nobody comes out smelling of roses on this one ...
Not the Supreme Court ... for telling the General to "blow with the wind", and not even checking who changed the DoB
Definitely not the MoD ... for playing favorites and destroying the integrity of a great institution
Definitely not St. Antony ... for doing nothing and let all of this happen on his watch and not take responsibility for anything
Not the media ... for publishing planted and selective leaks on coups and eavesdropping
And ... I must add highly reluctantly, not the general either ... calling for dissolution of parliament and agreeing to the change in DoB in the first place.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 11:54 
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Pakistan says 1 dead in border clash with India

Quote:
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and India traded accusations on Sunday of violating the boundary line dividing the two sides' forces in the disputed northern region of Kashmir. Pakistan said an Indian cross-border raid on border post killed one of its soldiers, while India said its troops had fired into Pakistan to retaliate for shelling that destroyed a home.
...
...


It is an AP news report, which ToI has reported in full. Note the standard disclaimers in the end which the shameless ToI has reproduced in full.

The PTI report is below:

Pakistani troops violate ceasefire again

Quote:
SRINAGAR: Pakistani troops on Sunday violated ceasefire by firing mortar shells towards Indian army posts in Uri sector near the Line of Control.

"They (Pakistan army) started firing mortar shells towards our posts at Churunda village in Uri sector around 3.15am," an army spokesman said.

He said some of the shells landed close to civilian habitation but there was no damage done.

The spokesman said the army retaliated the Pakistani shelling briefly after which there has been quiet from both sides.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 14:34 
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Pakistan said an Indian cross-border raid on border post killed one of its soldiers,

Though it is a TSP-ian accusation, wouldnt readily disbelieve it.

Cross border raid == SF involvement == High value target or message being sent across?

Wonder what caused such a provocation for even our pair-less higher-ups( not sure if netas sign off such things or its only upto sector commander/IA chief level) to sanction such a raid?


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 16:50 
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It's strange how quickly Pakistan has reported this incident and has tried to make it an issue given that it hardly even acknowledges any cross-border firing by its troops despite numerous casualties on the Indian side and Indian protests. Suddenly within hours of the incident we have Reuters, AFP and BBC reporting about this incident ? The term cross border raid sounds decidedly ominous when you consider that both India and Pakistan are nuclear states with a history.

The Indian Army has faced numerous cross-border firing incidents at its positions while Pakistan barely acknowledges them. Perhaps the Indian Army decided to respond more forcefully to this firing incident by "removing" the offending Pakistani post ? Would that be far fetched ??


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 17:03 
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Importing these trucks will be a money spinner for corrupt elements in and out of the army.

We do not have a siberia taiga for the telars to roam in the mud...any old truck like the cheen df31 telar which we already have will do for the bigger missiles and the x conuntry local offerings for the smaller missiles and mlrs.

This is just another sellout...


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 17:56 
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Brando wrote:
It's strange how quickly Pakistan has reported this incident and has tried to make it an issue given that it hardly even acknowledges any cross-border firing by its troops despite numerous casualties on the Indian side and Indian protests. Suddenly within hours of the incident we have Reuters, AFP and BBC reporting about this incident ? The term cross border raid sounds decidedly ominous when you consider that both India and Pakistan are nuclear states with a history.

The Indian Army has faced numerous cross-border firing incidents at its positions while Pakistan barely acknowledges them. Perhaps the Indian Army decided to respond more forcefully to this firing incident by "removing" the offending Pakistani post ? Would that be far fetched ??


I think that many more pakis were killed in the raid than is being admitted.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 18:49 
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Brando wrote:
It's strange how quickly Pakistan has reported this incident and has tried to make it an issue given that it hardly even acknowledges any cross-border firing by its troops despite numerous casualties on the Indian side and Indian protests. Suddenly within hours of the incident we have Reuters, AFP and BBC reporting about this incident ? The term cross border raid sounds decidedly ominous when you consider that both India and Pakistan are nuclear states with a history.

The Indian Army has faced numerous cross-border firing incidents at its positions while Pakistan barely acknowledges them. Perhaps the Indian Army decided to respond more forcefully to this firing incident by "removing" the offending Pakistani post ? Would that be far fetched ??

Who has given pukis right to complain, after pigs involved in 26/11 are roaming free, or for that matter Dawood Ibrahim and such murderous gangsters. Or rabid jehadis. All the propagandu is about hiding all this to make this appears quickly as some kind of issue, even while firing mortars from across the border as the article itself says that has already destroyed a home in India. Who will pay for this home destroyed?


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 20:46 
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There is firing nearly everyday on the border and only some of the incidents are reported in the press.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 20:56 
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^especially in the newspapers circulating in regions other than Punjab Haryana & Himachal. I remember firing incidents being regularly reported in papers like TribuneIndia, which were completely absent in other major dailies about 8 years back.
TribuneIndia gives a feeling that it hasbecome now more of congi mouthpiece


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 01:04 
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Some interesting tidbit from economic times report...

India vs Pakistan: First ceasefire violations of 2013 in Haji Pir sector

Quote:
...
Pakistan, however, has claimed that India army crossed the LoC and left two of its soldiers injured. One of the injured later died, reports from Islamabad quoting army sources said. However, defence sources in Baramulla denied they breached the LoC. The dispute is about an outpost that Indian army had left unmanned for some time. While the soldiers were deployed to this post, this triggered today's crisis.

...


So does this mean that the pakis now occupy this post that India had vacated during winter?


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 01:10 
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^^woooh!!!

some kind of kargil 2? or a mini kargil??


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 20:46 
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From Pioneer

Fund freezes Cold Start

Monday, 07 January 2013 00:47
Rahul Datta | New Delhi
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In a major setback to Army’s operational preparedness, its ambitious ‘Cold Start’ doctrine to speedily overwhelm Pakistan in the first few days of the war has been hampered by the budget cut of more than Rs10,000 crore this year. With little hope of getting more funds in the next fiscal too, the Army is not in a position to put in place its critical plan to raise an operational corps to sustain unhindered logistical supply of ammunition to the advancing forces in Pakistan.

After the mobilisation of troops took more than ten days for Operation Parakaram in the wake of the terrorist attack on Parliament in 2001, the Indian Army came up with ‘Cold Start’ doctrine to achieve the military objectives in the shortest possible time with minimum collateral damage.

Army chief General Bikram Singh is likely to brief Prime Minister Manmohan Singh shortly about the situation arising out of the budget cut and its impact on the ‘Cold Start’ doctrine. The presentation was to take place last week, but had to postpone due to the Prime Minister’s other commitments, sources said.

The Army chief will also brief the Prime Minister about the critical shortages facing the Army in terms of outdated artillery guns, ammunition, night-fighting capabilities, air defence and lack of specialised equipment for the Special Forces.

The Army’s plan to fight a two-front war at the same time on the western and eastern borders with Pakistan and China respectively have also taken a hit due to resource crunch as the Government was unlikely to give funds for raising two mountain strike corps for China front, sources said here on Sunday.

As part of this Rs60,000 crore project, the Army was supposed to raise these two corps over a period of four to five years and the funds were to be allotted in a phased manner over the same time frame.

The Army felt that the implantation ‘Cold Start’ doctrine is urgent because Pakistan has a distinct geographical advantage over India and can mobilise its forces faster. The first format of this doctrine took shape in 2004 with a clear objective that the Army should be able to make an offensive thrust into Pakistan from various sectors within the first 48 hours after the war broke out. The ‘Cold Start’ doctrine emphasised building capabilities for such an endeavour.

The doctrine said the entire purpose of a military option to take out terrorist training camps in POK or deter Pakistan Army from launching a counter-offensive will be defeated if India did not rapidly mobilise it forced to attack its enemy.

Maintaining the momentum of the offensive through uninterrupted supply of ammunition for tanks and artillery, besides bullets for advancing mechanised infantry, was part of the ‘Cold Start’ doctrine.

As part of the doctrine, it was planned to have an operational corps to ensure logistical support to the Strike Corps comprising tanks, artillery, attack helicopters and infantry. These three corps along with battle groups will be there to rapidly advance into Pakistan by overwhelming its forces and holding territory.

The ‘Cold Start’ doctrine got a boost during then Army chief General VK Singh’s tenure, but things came to a standstill when he took on the Government over his date of birth issue last year.

This spat saw the Army’s efforts to reduce its teeth-to-tail ratio by ensuring fast delivery of ammunition to its fighting men. This slowed down in the last one and half years, and don’t see to get better this year. Sources said the budget cut put the Army’s operational plans hovering around ‘Cold Start’ doctrine and training on the back burner.

The operational corps is short of funds for the last two to three years to put in place a foolproof system of delivery of ordnance even when facing enemy artillery fire or air attack, they added.

In this situation, if ordered to fight a war at this point of time, the elite Strike Corps and armoured columns of tanks will not be able to advance more than ten to 15 kilometres in a day in Pakistan, officials admitted.


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 21:00 
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^^^ Most of the money is being diverted by Congress thugs into vote gathering corruption ridden schemes like Jawahar Rojgar Yojna. There is no money left for education, defence or healthcare.


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 22:28 
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Quote:
The ‘Cold Start’ doctrine got a boost during then Army chief General VK Singh’s tenure, but things came to a standstill when he took on the Government over his date of birth issue last year.

This spat saw the Army’s efforts to reduce its teeth-to-tail ratio by ensuring fast delivery of ammunition to its fighting men. This slowed down in the last one and half years, and don’t see to get better this year. Sources said the budget cut put the Army’s operational plans hovering around ‘Cold Start’ doctrine and training on the back burner.

The operational corps is short of funds for the last two to three years to put in place a foolproof system of delivery of ordnance even when facing enemy artillery fire or air attack, they added.


I'm trying to understand something here - is the article saying that because of the DOB controversy, the forces modernization was stopped because it didn't receive adequate funding ? :eek:


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 07:11 
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I thought I will add some more misery to this thread:

Watering down the Army's Night Vision systems to satisfy BEL


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 13:34 
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Quote:
Ladakh fracas: Disciplinary action okayed against 16 Armymen


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130108/main4.htm

Quote:
Nearly seven months after officers and jawans of an artillery regiment clashed at Nyoma near the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in southeastern Ladakh, a Court of Inquiry (CoI) has blamed as many as 56 personnel, including at least five officers, for the incident.


Quote:
Sources reveal that the CoI has recommended disciplinary action against 16 personnel, including the regiment’s commanding officer, second-in-command and three other officers for failure of command and control, assault, indiscipline and other lapses. In addition, administrative action has been recommended against 40 other personnel for their role in the incident.


Quote:
The CoI, presided by Brig Ajay Talwar, Deputy General Officer Commanding 3 Infantry Division has forwarded its findings and recommendations to Headquarters 14 Corps at Leh. The CoI had examined 220 witnesses, including officers, JCOs and other ranks, besides five civilians.


CoI FINDINGS

Quote:
A Court of Inquiry has blamed as many as 56 personnel, including at least five officers, for the incident

It has recommended disciplinary action against 16 personnel, including the regiment’s commanding officer, second-in-command and three other officers for failure of command and control, assault, indiscipline, etc

In addition, administrative action has been recommended against 40 other personnel for their role in the incident


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 15:13 
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I simply cannot make head or tale of the article about CSD and cut in the Army budget. Which and what Corps is the author talking about? Super confused onlee...


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 15:15 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
I thought I will add some more misery to this thread:

Watering down the Army's Night Vision systems to satisfy BEL


And I thought it was always the corrupt Armd Core chaps who were running down the poor poor PSU wala hard working babu?


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 15:18 
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Sanku wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:
I thought I will add some more misery to this thread:

Watering down the Army's Night Vision systems to satisfy BEL


And I thought it was always the corrupt Armd Core chaps who were running down the poor poor PSU wala hard working babu?


:wink:

It take a village to burn all the houses of that said village.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 19:05 
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Quote:
And I thought it was always the corrupt Armd Core chaps who were running down the poor poor PSU wala hard working babu?


no ones denies PSU problems

except the army has never rejected more orders because of PSU quality issues.

not to mention that natasha products made by PSU also had quality problems (barrels, ammo ityadi)

so the question mark still remains on Armoured corp decision making!!


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 19:23 
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Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor
Update: Army confirms that one of its jawans was beheaded (his head was taken away by the Pak Army attackers). The other was not beheaded.

:evil: :evil: :x


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 19:26 
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I am hearing in news that 2 IA soldiers have been killed by puki army well within our LOC.. What the hell is happening here...


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 20:16 
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http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/314590/jk- ... atrol.html

I just heard on news that both of Indian soldiers were mutilated. One poor chap has his head missing. Army has not been disclosing the gruesome/gory details. I can only guess what the families of those two soldiers will go through.

Pak army did it in Saurab Kalia (1999 Kargil war) case before and it did it once again.

Its time to send SF to local Pak post where this happened and bring back the Pakistani unit responsible (dead or alive) for trial in India.
Diplomacy, Geneva Convention, International Court of Justice won't have any effect on Pakistan regarding this. They will just keep denying officially. We need to make a strong case so that they lose the habit of mutilating our soldiers and start respecting Geneva convention and fight with some honor.

BTW, for some apparent reasons, I am not hoping for any meaningful response from our great PM Dr. Singh.


Last edited by Ghatotkacha on 08 Jan 2013 20:23, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 20:19 
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no no.. let us just stop playing cricket with them...


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 20:20 
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Pak troops cross LoC, kill 2 Indian jawans brutally

Quote:
JAMMU: In a gruesome attack, Pakistani troops on Tuesday crossed into Indian territory and ambushed an Army patrol party killing two soldiers whose heads were reportedly chopped off.

The attack took place along the Line of Control in Poonch district when Pakistanis came about 100 metres into Indian territory and assaulted the patrol party. Besides killing two Lance Naiks, Hemraj and Sudhakar Singh, they also injured two other soldiers.

During the brutal assault on the patrol party, the Pakistanis are said to have chopped off their heads, one of which they carried with them, informed sources said.

However, the Army, while confirming the killing of Indian soldiers, did not comment on reports that they had been beheaded.
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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 20:22 
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BRFite

Joined: 05 Apr 2008 17:29
Posts: 614
Location: Skardu
Sad, From GOI side things wont go beyond sending Dossiers.


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