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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 02:05 
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jamwal wrote:
The 42 J-11 attack looks a bit out of character in this scenario. 3:1 and 2:1 numerical superiority over Su 30s and Mirages should count for more than just that. I'm not sure about Indian pilots being so much better than Chinese. Perhaps having a WSO gives Su-30s an advantage and Indian avionics may be better, but the final outcome still looks unrealistic. Mirages escaping unscathed against these odds in such a manner is even more strange considering that even baseline Su-27 will have very good air combat capabilities. I remember reading an article where it was mentioned that Mig-29 of IAF routinely beat Mirages in air combat.


This has more to do with a multitude of factors. One of which the combat experience of the pilots involved, which for the pilots of the IAF after ten days of intensive operations, is pretty high amonst the survivors (a darwinian process has already culled the lower skilled pilots and novices after so many days) and which even in peacetime is much higher than the average PLAAF pilot. THe 19TH Fighter Division, if you recall, has been in theater for a few days but has only participated in DCA role. No combat has taken place between its pilots and the Indians to the south. The IAF pilots know exactly how the J-11 behaves under a BVR environment and what the chinese skill sets are based on their combat experience with the 6TH, 33RD, 44TH and 37TH Fighter Divisions in the days before. The 19TH FD pilots do not have that level of experience with anything Indian at the time.

If you notice, the beginning combat scenes between the IAF and PLAAF were more evenly balanced in terms of losses. This is because the Darwinian process was working brutally on both sides, exacting kills and casualties. Over time, the losses on the Indian side reduced as the "survival of the fittest" logic worked to its brutal completion. The same did not apply on the PLAAF side because very few actually made it back to their bases for the experience to have any net effect. Plus Chen was being forced to rotate fresh units into place when others became depleted on account of few airbases available which meant the few survivors from those units were not being allowed to let their experience go anywhere.

And a Mig-29 will beat a Mirage but only when it is flown by its Indian pilots, if you follow.

Then there are other factors exuded to in the scenario. Indian ECMs and ECCMs on the Su-30MKI are generally considered far superior to the baseline Flanker and only been improved since. So while both sides have the same missiles to throw at each other, the ability to spoof them on the Indian side is higher. Much higher. Especially against swarm launches of missiles.

Splitting the overall force of 42 into smaller groups so that a final few can get through to the target is also an issue here. When they got down to it, The J-11s fighting the Mirages were at 1.6:1 advantage and maneuvering to buy time for the Regiment commander and his wingman to get to the AEW&C bird. Their tactics weren't designed to get fighter kills but to facilitate the killing of a force multiplier.

Different tactics towards a much larger goal than Mirage and Su-30 kills, which at this point in the war mean little to the likes of Feng, Chen and Wencang.

jamwal wrote:
Considering from Chinese viewpoint, any commander will think of it as a too high price to pay as you have mentioned earlier. But of course, if the motive was to punch a hole in Indian radar coverage for some other attack then things make some sense. Waiting for next batch of posts to make things clearer.


Bliss to wait and see. :wink:


Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 03 Jan 2013 02:15, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 02:10 
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asbchakri wrote:
Vivek, since this scenario is comong to a close, can you start on a different scenario in the 2018-2020 time frame, this time with a 2 way attack started by Pakistan and joined later by China (maybe supported by Nepal and Burma). This time frame could be good with the arrival of

1. Rafel available in small numbers
2. complete batch of SU-30 MKI's
3. Vik along with IAC
4. Kolkata Class all 3
5. Project 28 Class all 4+??
6. Modified Krivak III Class All 3
7. Project 17 all 3
8. Project 17A -1 or 2
9. 6 Scorpene
10. Nirbhay in good numbers along with Brahamos
11. Agni V in active duty(ICBM and SLBM)
12. ABM deployed

and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D


Not at all saar. As Manish just mentioned: that was intended to be my next scenario. Around 2025, to be exact. Wanted to take a futuristic look at the nature of combat in the subcontinent where all of the above are deployed as both sides want them to be. Let the murderous mayhem begin! :twisted:

But that will come after I get the current book out in stores and on amazon etc for you guys to read. So another few weeks.

FYI: I am also converting my first scenario (from 2007) into a cleaned up novel. This was the one involving Myanmar for those of you who remember. I am mentally expanding on that for now but will plan on putting that book as the second one to come out six months from the release of this first one.

P.S.: Nice to see you back on BRF sir.

-Vivek


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 02:34 
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Quote:
and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D

Not at all saar. As Manish just mentioned: that was intended to be my next scenario. Around 2025, to be exact. Wanted to take a futuristic look at the nature of combat in the subcontinent where all of the above are deployed as both sides want them to be. Let the murderous mayhem begin! :twisted:

But that will come after I get the current book out in stores and on amazon etc for you guys to read. So another few weeks.

FYI: I am also converting my first scenario (from 2007) into a cleaned up novel. This was the one involving Myanmar for those of you who remember. I am mentally expanding on that for now but will plan on putting that book as the second one to come out six months from the release of this first one.

P.S.: Nice to see you back on BRF sir.

-Vivek


Thanks Vivek sir looking forward to that. Will that scenario include just China or Pakis or both.

2025 wil means there might be a lot of changes in force projections and strategies of the world powers (Russa, US) and also strategic alignment of various countires (Japan, Australi, India, Vietnam...) against China. Will these factor in your scenarios?. As of now we just see a 1-1 battle with a major focus on the in depth details of the scenarios, which we would still want you to carry on, but can we broaden the aspects of war with the others comming into play. What i meant is will this just be another border war or will the recent issues with China's aggeressions on various island claims in the south china sea be also part of this scenario. Also with US vacating Afganistan and the Jihadi powers strenghthening again, that could also be a major factor in this conflict.

2025 is 13 years away a lot could change :D


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 02:49 
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^

Of course a lot will change by the time this scenario ends. By Shiva's blessing Tibet could become an independent country with few deployed nuclear weapons :D


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 02:51 
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Can't wait for the attack by the Malacca Su-30's..

What is it? What is it? What is it?
An attack on Yulin Naval base?

--Ashish


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 07:31 
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The mirages with only super530 taking out 11 flankers for zero losses looked unrealistic.

Even if it were the upg mirages with mica and rdy3 , they would have a hard fight on their hands assuming ew were also upg to icms.mk3 . Detection ranges would balance put flanker has bigger radar but bigger rcs too. In red flag fights the m2kc was able to hold its own against the f15c albeit it has less payload and range.....mirage can match the f15c in top speed and is faster than flankers. it has a huge climb rate in a2a config. faster and higher the fight gets it is at ease.

I would rather you send the ocu training detachment of 6 rafales led by veteran instructor pilots to join the battle north from bangalore to bagdogra....armed with mica, rbe2aa , osf2 and spectra mk2 ofcourse ....they were on the ground in charbatia preparing for a secretive deep strike mission when this punitive dragon thing came along. :twisted:


Last edited by Singha on 03 Jan 2013 08:14, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 08:10 
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Okay okay fine! Geez! I get it. I will fix it. :((

One of these days I am going to let you, Jamwal and the others talk to the No. 7 squadron pilots directly and explain to them exactly why they cannot take out ten flankers in a furball! :mrgreen:

Why, you ask? Because sure as hell I ain't gonna be the guy to tell them that! 8)

Anyway, jokes apart, me returning to writing scenario. Be back soon with more stuff.

-V.


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 08:42 
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Best approach to calm down nagging babies is to tell them a story :)


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 09:39 
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asbchakri wrote:
1. Rafel available in small numbers
2. complete batch of SU-30 MKI's
3. Vik along with IAC
4. Kolkata Class all 3
5. Project 28 Class all 4+??
6. Modified Krivak III Class All 3
7. Project 17 all 3
8. Project 17A -1 or 2
9. 6 Scorpene
10. Nirbhay in good numbers along with Brahamos
11. Agni V in active duty(ICBM and SLBM)
12. ABM deployed

and much more. Hope it is not too much to ask for. :D :D


Yes it is much more and by 2025 list will be longer

1.may be IAC2
2.Shourya/sagarika in good numbers
3.SSBn/SSGN/SSN
4.Hypersonic Brahmos
5.our munna Tejas, in MkII/MkIII -- will be ready to kick some .
6.PAKFA/FGFA
7.Arjun-MkII(further version) in good numbers, hopefully
8.whole lot of new missiles in every category - Akash-2,Astra,AD1,AD2,Prahaar,NAG,K-3,K-4,etc,etc
9.number of UAV and UCAV, these will play major role in all future wars.
10.F-INSAS
11.AWACS-I
12.P-75I
13.Artillery - towed , wheeled, track

IAF should have its full strength of 42 sqd, may be more - 45-50Sqd.
IN have its sanction strength -150 ship.
IA will have total new look with F-INSAS,artillery,AAC(Dhruv-LCH).

IRNSS with GLONAS will provide all time live feed of whole thing from pakistan to china.

and many more .. vivkeji have lot to do .. :)


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 11:15 
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With all due respect to Vivek. The last air-ware scenario is bit Toma Clancyish :(


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 11:24 
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vila wrote:
The last air-ware scenario is bit Toma Clancyish :(


Ouch. Compared to Clancy.

:(


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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 11:34 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
vila wrote:
The last air-ware scenario is bit Toma Clancyish :(

Ouch. Compared to Clancy.
:(


Don't mind us, Vivek Saar.
Its every jingo's dream to see every single air-battle being played out in as grim details as you had done at the start of the scenario.
Since that can't be done every time, I bet thats why people are upset.

That said, its pretty cool to see that you are running numbers for scenario.
How is that done?
Could you give a few phrases to query using Google Chacha so that I may learn a bit more?

--Ashish


Last edited by Misraji on 03 Jan 2013 14:18, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Jan 2013 14:13 
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Vivek,

Don't mind us at all... I'm sure your analysis about the attrition and loss ratios is far more accurate than our feelings about how many should be lost. Your detailed explanation at the top of this page was certainly quite a clear insight into it.

I think the cribs are really just expectations that come with any epic quest fairy-tale - the usual template is that a victory always feels more real when there is a sacrifice made, or a loss. I guess thats why the comments above.

Keep doing what you do best!!

Waiting for more posts... please put some up as soon as you can!! :-)


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PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 04:02 
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Had an interesting talk with a former Russian Air-Force Lieutenant (conscripted out of Moscow University into the PVO) from the Soviet days (mid 1980s). He was an operator of the S-300 battery in the Russian Far East opposite the Chinese border for two years. Had some interesting tales to tell about his experience there with the Chinese, the S-300 and the Russian anti-missile capabilities during the cold war. I will write a small article on it or something after I finish on the current work.

I did tell him about my work and the S-300 descriptions in the novel/scenario. He expressed surprise about why Russia sold Beijing the S-300s to begin with (tempered because of his own experience serving the Soviet army against the PLA) and has agreed to proofread the S-300 writeup in the novel for technical accuracy! :shock:

The shit just got real! :twisted:


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PostPosted: 04 Jan 2013 05:52 
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Vivek,

Congratulations on speaking with the Russian S-300 operator! The level of technical knowledge you've put into your work is remarkable. It's unique in this genre, and you should be proud of that.

You've put a great deal of work into this scenario; that is evident by your detailed explanations whenever you're challenged about the plausibility of certain details. I would recommend that you put a sentence or two into the scenes that would fore-answer the questions of certain readers.

For instance, in the latest air battle, one of the Chinese commanders could mention something (perhaps in an internal muse) about the huge number of J-11s needed, because the pilots were inexperienced and the opposing MKI's were such superior aircraft. You've clearly thought through the details; you should communicate them to the reader so he knows the scene is realistic.

I thought the kill ratios were realistic. In a fight of J-11's vs. MKI's, the MKI's have far superior avionics, ECM, agility, and well-trained pilots. Regarding the J-11's vs. the Mirages, it's difficult to know what's realistic, as no one knows the true capabilities of the J-11. For reasons that I'll post in the "China Military Watch" thread, I'm skeptical of the J-11.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:09 
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Vivek Bhai is active in all other Dhagas but not in his very own Dhaga :-o :(


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:16 
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asbchakri wrote:
Vivek Bhai is active in all other Dhagas but not in his very own Dhaga :-o :(


One of those days when the scenarios computer was left at home by mistake and me stuck in office. Hence spending scenario writing time on other dhagas. :oops:


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:24 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
asbchakri wrote:
Vivek Bhai is active in all other Dhagas but not in his very own Dhaga :-o :(


One of those days when the scenarios computer was left at home by mistake and me stuck in office. Hence spending scenario writing time on other dhagas. :oops:



So we can look forward to a huuuugeeee number of posts as soon as u get home :twisted: :D

So how is the editing of your novel comming along.

Also some time back you were saying that u are working on a book, so what is the status of that.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:30 
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asbchakri wrote:
So how is the editing of your novel comming along.


Next week its going to the publishers and to the three Military Advisers for the book who will review the technical authenticity among other things (apparently the publisher's editors do not know what an S-300 system is :) )

I guess it takes about two-three weeks after I submit it to go out on amazon etc. Let's see how that works out.

The book is on hold until I see what the response is to the book after its released. If the response is good and widespread, I will continue writing novels instead. On the other hand, if only the BRF community and other academia are interested in the novel, I will consider writing a technical analysis of air-warfare with the PLAAF based on all the simulations and analysis I did for it.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:37 
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Misraji wrote:
you are running numbers for scenario.
How is that done?
Could you give a few phrases to query using Google Chacha so that I may learn a bit more?


You might want to look up "Differential Equations of combat". It was originally used for analyzing infantry combat which I then expanded on to air-warfare and logistics interdiction by making the coefficients a weighted function of weapon effectiveness, fuel and airbase distance to target, training and special-mission support and then iterated the solutions versus time to give me loss statistics and combat results.

I also expanded the time to take place over days, not hours (originally from the infantry setup) and that allowed me to simulate the entire air-warfare for the scenario over the days I write about and have yet to be written about.

The effect on airbases is modeled differently when exposed to missile attacks. This is something Rahul_M and I talked about couple years back and which I encoded up into a software tool for the scenario work. This models the damage taken to airbases and which then is factored in the other model for air-warfare.

Infantry and tank combat models are less advanced in my scenario since that is not my area of specialty but I do model basic tank-vs-tank engagements similar to the air-warfare model. But its not as advanced and does not factor too many variables (So that part is utterly fiction! :wink: ). I guess some game simulators probably do a better modeling than I did given my limited resources and time.

Once I get these numbers out, I then flesh them out in the backdrop of the scenario characters and storyline and then post them here ( :mrgreen: ) or add them to the novel.

On a sidenote: I know that the RAND corporation has a similar tool for simulating realistic campaigns between nations. Its land-forces model is far more advanced than anything I had when writing this scenario. I sent them a few emails and got some replies but generally they don't want to talk about their coefficient models with me for some reason... :P

-Vivek


Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 05 Jan 2013 03:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:43 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
asbchakri wrote:
So how is the editing of your novel comming along.


Next week its going to the publishers and to the three Military Advisers for the book who will review the technical authenticity among other things (apparently the publisher's editors do not know what an S-300 system is :) )

I guess it takes about two-three weeks after I submit it to go out on amazon etc. Let's see how that works out.

The book is on hold until I see what the response is to the book after its released. If the response is good and widespread, I will continue writing novels instead. On the other hand, if only the BRF community and other academia are interested in the novel, I will consider writing a technical analysis of air-warfare with the PLAAF based on all the simulations and analysis I did for it.



We'l keep our fingers crossed and dont worry the huge BRF community will certainly buy it. :D and i'm sure Wencang, Chen, Feng and Chairman Peng will certainly buy :lol:

But please do not stop writing on BRF whatever the matter. Your posts are a great relief to us all.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 06:43 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
You might want to look up "Differential Equations of combat".


Awesome!!! ... Thank you very much.
Now that is worth its weight in gold.

vivek_ahuja wrote:
On a sidenote: I know that the RAND corporation has a similar tool for simulating realistic campaigns between nations. Its land-forces model is far more advanced than anything I had when writing this scenario. I sent them a few emails and got some replies but generally they don't want to talk about their coefficient models with me for some reason... :P

-Vivek


Would have loved to see their faces when they got your mail .... :rotfl:

--Ashish


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 07:02 
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usaf pilots claim that though in 1:1 or 2:2 engagements a lot of AFs have pilot cadres that can match them, in larger 4:x or 8:x type of engagements supported by awacs they are better because they get a lot of such practice in exercises like red flag and so on...there is always some usaf exercise going on either alone or with some allies 365 days of the yr.

not sure how far its true, but likewise one has to train for unstructured furballs rather than just hope for best. he who trains these scenarios like loss of awacs and surprise furballs more intensively stands a better chance of improvising enough to make it out. "top gun" school happened due to lessons in vietnam war I believe....vietnam was fought by pilots fighting their first war and bred to think missiles were the winner....the earlier korean war was fought by veteran pilots of WW2 who were already well honed in every tactic.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 09:25 
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Singha wrote:
usaf pilots claim that though in 1:1 or 2:2 engagements a lot of AFs have pilot cadres that can match them, in larger 4:x or 8:x type of engagements supported by awacs they are better because they get a lot of such practice in exercises like red flag and so on...there is always some usaf exercise going on either alone or with some allies 365 days of the yr.

not sure how far its true, but likewise one has to train for unstructured furballs rather than just hope for best. he who trains these scenarios like loss of awacs and surprise furballs more intensively stands a better chance of improvising enough to make it out. "top gun" school happened due to lessons in vietnam war I believe....vietnam was fought by pilots fighting their first war and bred to think missiles were the winner....the earlier korean war was fought by veteran pilots of WW2 who were already well honed in every tactic.


Dear vivek have you read the fake parts report in PLAAF.
it is eating J8II


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 10:29 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
asbchakri wrote:
So how is the editing of your novel comming along.


Next week its going to the publishers and to the three Military Advisers for the book who will review the technical authenticity among other things (apparently the publisher's editors do not know what an S-300 system is :) )

I guess it takes about two-three weeks after I submit it to go out on amazon etc. Let's see how that works out.

The book is on hold until I see what the response is to the book after its released. If the response is good and widespread, I will continue writing novels instead. On the other hand, if only the BRF community and other academia are interested in the novel, I will consider writing a technical analysis of air-warfare with the PLAAF based on all the simulations and analysis I did for it.


Vivekji, please continue to write novels. The first one takes time and effort to get it out. After that, for it to gain traction, it requires tons of marketing. You can ask your publisher to create book signing events. Use the BRF network to your advantage. Ask if there is a BRF reader in a particular city/town and see if they can muster up some 100 jingoes who can come out for your book signing event and buy that book. At least 100 books will be off the shelf in that city. You may have to cover some 10 cities and 1000 books are off the shelf. Some of them will blog, some will do analysis, others will tweet, some others will loan it to their friends - ask each of them to spread the message. Ask publishers if they have a PR person who you can contact and they can get you in touch with events. For example, the US Armed forces (AF, Navy, Marines, Army and their suppliers hold conferences in Washington - 2years back it was in the Gaylord convention center)., show up there with some 2 dozen books, sign them and give them away as gifts or discount price - it will get the word going .... Same for Indian forces. In colleges across US/Australia there are desis - ask their Indian student union if they can host you to give a speech followed by book signing event. After you do that, sign up with a taiwaneese, chineese, japaneese student union and see if they are interested.

The point is out reach to as many as you can. There should be a sustained outreach, your goal should be to make it at least 5000 sales in a year. Soft copy, hard copy, amazon copy or any android copy - all included. I will be ready to buy a book from amazon at the first instance. If you can ask your publisher that there are fans who would like a hard copy with your signature for extra charge, that should be included to. The point is sell, sell and sell.

If Arundhoti could wrangle a hooker prize with just 8000 copies initially, you can do a lot more. Once it is published, do let us know - we should create a separate page where we track which BRF member has bought it. It should be mandatory reading (quizes should be asked :ROFL:) and if they have failed to buy, they lose posting privileges.

Some of the suggestions above may be superfluous., the intention is to make your book a success. Let us know what it takes to get this marketed. If it involves you to travel to a city and put up for two days - ask if somebody can sponsor you for that city. They can team up and sponsor you. Never miss a chance to market your book.

Also retain the rights to make a play out of the book and a movie or a radio story out of the book. See if local radio stations will be interested in converting your book into a play over radio. This are some ideas and again may be superfluous - but do not give up. Market it. Get the audience know about this. First one is tough, second one will be hard, third one will be with an effort and after that some 3 books to your credit, a pull will be generated. I have seen this happen with books that are barely readable and yours is way beyond in quality.

You are writing real thrillers. Please keep it up.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 10:41 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
asbchakri wrote:
So how is the editing of your novel comming along.


Next week its going to the publishers and to the three Military Advisers for the book who will review the technical authenticity among other things (apparently the publisher's editors do not know what an S-300 system is :) )

I guess it takes about two-three weeks after I submit it to go out on amazon etc. Let's see how that works out.

The book is on hold until I see what the response is to the book after its released. If the response is good and widespread, I will continue writing novels instead. On the other hand, if only the BRF community and other academia are interested in the novel, I will consider writing a technical analysis of air-warfare with the PLAAF based on all the simulations and analysis I did for it.

Great work Vivek. I guess you need to put a glossary of terms used with definitions and some common explanations system specifications , range etc for laymen to enjoy the book more.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 23:48 
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Dear Vivek,

May I first congratulate you on a superlative effort over the years to highlight the risks we face vis a vis our Northern/Eastern neighbour and writing such authentic scenarios. I know one of my friends from the MO directorate who read some of your posts a while ago was very impressed. You have rendered a very valuable service and I would like to add my huge thanks to everyone elses for that.

Just to ensure that your great work is even more authentic, I have a few comments if I may.

Though the technical, tactical and especially strategic aspects of your postings are absolutely top class, I find that the narrative and language is very Americanised. I only mention this as you are writing a novel and it maybe useful in that context to get a better reception.

We simply do not use certain language and terms in the Indian Military (I can vouch for the Army and to a large extent the Navy, not so sure about the IAF as I have not had too much first hand experience of their culture and SOPs). For example we do not have medics or corpsmen, we have nursing assistants ( ORs and NCOs) and RMOs (Regimental Medical Officers who are typically captains or majors) attached to units. For a long time now Indian Lt Cols or even Lt Gens for that matter do not smoke cigars...we cannot afford it. Officers used to sometimes smoke pipes but I must say I have'nt seen that since the early 90s. Cigarettes are what we smoke I'm afraid.

A Lt Col will not call a Squadron Leader 'son' because these days a Lt Col is a company commander (not a good thing but that is a discussion for another time and place) aged say 35-40. A Squadron Leader would be between 28 and 35 I presume so you can see why 'son' does not work. When Lt Cols were COs then calling a subaltern 'son' worked but even then company commanders (Majors) were not called 'sons'. So you can have Gens and above saying 'son' to majors/ squadron leaders but never above that. We don't use 'red' or 'commie' for the Chinese. We just refer to them as the chinese and during hostilities we will refer to them as the enemy or dushman. This is how we do things at all levels right from section to command. Troops don't call their officers boss and neither do officers. One caveat here an officer might tell a third person that X is his boss but would never say boss to X. Its always 'sir' or sahab or sahabji as the case maybe. In the Navy sahab and sahabji are not used AFAIK and they stick to sir. I don't even think they use 'skipper'. We also tend to use surnames a lot ie 'Chow (Chaudhry) will take command if something happens to me' . COs are referred to as TIGER.

Officers at all levels (including Army Commanders) use a lot of hindi these days; and jawans of course use it almost exclusively. We also refer to 'airmen' or 'air warriors' instead of 'air force boys' to denote IAF PBOR. I have heard a fair bit of hindi used in the Navy too but obviously less than the army.

We also use a lot of MC, BC in the army at junior levels especially in ops. Never in front of seniors of course. So at a junior level conversations between officers maybe like 'Vikas sir we are out of ammo, jaldi behj do sir' or 'Bakshi yaar aaj throttle ki ma chud gayi' (I have heard this from a IAF fighter pilot first hand). Also officers use 'yaar' a lot and 'partner' sometimes. 'Buddy' is quite rare. We never say 'fighter jock'. There are lots of other things like this.

Just my two bits Vivek to help you make it more Indian and help the Indian fighting soul come out. It is so very rich and it would be great if your novel feels more Indian;-) I know we don't have a rich military fiction universe so we get our military techno diet from American authors and naturally their language and culture seeps in. But the great news is people like you are developing our own military techno genre and that is great.

Btw you must have heard of Mukul Deva perhaps? He is a well known writer in the genre and was in 6 Sikh LI (I think) and took a very important peak in Siachen. Then became a businessman and military fiction writer. Very interesting guy. Or Airavat Singh ofcourse? He brings out the 'Indianess' well.

Sorry for the long post. If any of this is helpful then it will have served its purpose. Best of luck with the publishing Vivek. Regardless of these minor points I am sure it will a great read.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 00:16 
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Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Sorry for the long post. If any of this is helpful then it will have served its purpose.


By all means, Akshay. I am always looking for critique and improvements. If you notice the read of the scenario from 2007 till now, you will notice gradually incorporated nuances/improvements/suggestions as the story has progressed. So I am always open to input from the folks here and elsewhere.

I do understand your notion about the amercanized feeling of the read for the army side of things. I realized this too but my own experience has been restricted to interacting with the air-force personnel and their lingo/chatter (which is somewhat more americanized than the army, I admit). So in that context your inputs are valued greatly.

As far as specific characters and their traits are concerned, I have built up more depth in the novel to explain and give the reader a feel for where and what the origins of those personal traits are, so I hope you and the readers will indulge me a bit on it. :) They are my no means extended generally to everybody, of course. Case in point being Lt-Col Fernnandes and his love of cigars! By all means most of the other army officers in the scenario stick to cigarettes (in accordance with reality, as you pointed out)! Or the other example of the Spear team members in Bhutan and their love of the word "boss" for their team leader. Notice that they are meant purely within the context of those specific characters and not extended to the army! :)


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 01:10 
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Another aspect we need to look into is cyber warfare. I think china might have a big edge here. May be Dileep saar can chime in with potential computer attack scenarios.

Just imagine the horror if China cuts off power supply and water supply to all politicians :eek:


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 05:13 
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Thank you Vivek,

glad that was of some use and looking forward to reading about Fernanndes' character. Actually I can picture him with a cigar pay omissions (meant to say commissions but hey freudan slip!) notwithstanding. You are the author so have the license and looking forward to indulge in the novel ;-)

One more thing I would point out is that there is no Operations Commander as such at formations like Div or corps. Dy GOC of Div a Brig is supposed to take care of all staff roles - A, G and Q branch functions. G branch is ops and intelligence and is looked after by Col GS (Ops) ie Col General Staff (Operations). Similarly at Corps level you have Chief of Staff a Maj Gen, a BGS (Brigadier General Staff) and Col GS (Ops) and Col (Q). For most of your purposes these are the important guys. Even at battalion/ regiment (for arty, armd and engr regts) level we do don't have an operations officer or C3I staff or anything...the role is done by the 2IC and Adjudant. Also we use the term 2IC only at battalion/regt level. At Brigade level we say Dy Commander, at Div level Dy GOC and at Corps or Command level Chief of Staff. Just like in the IAF you have a SASO (Senior Air Staff Officer) who is the deputy to AOCnC. Last point (and I promise to shut up after this;-)) the term CO is used only for battalion/regt commanders. All other units like independent company or field workshop etc or even companies, batteries and squadrons the term is OC (Officer Commanding).

Sorry yaar don't mean to be pedantic!!


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 05:24 
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Akshay,

Thanks for making these notes. Certainly good for me to know since a lot of my scenario posts go down to small unit levels while talking about some combat situation or the other. I will edit the novel to take these changes into account in the final draft.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 05:26 
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JUNWEI KONGJUN
BEIJING
DAY 10 + 1530 HRS


“What happened out there?” Chen thundered as he slammed open the door of the observation room in the operations center. Chen, Li and the junior officers turned away from the discussions they were having. Chen looked at Li and the other officers:
“Get out!” he ordered.

As the men walked out sheepishly, leaving the papers and other documents on the table, Chen stared at Feng until he heard the door close behind him.
Well, Senior-Colonel?” Chen asked pointedly, choosing to stay formal with his protégé.

“We delivered as asked for,” Feng replied calmly and removed his reading glasses as he continued. “The 55TH Fighter Regiment died doing what they were ordered to do. The Indian AWACS over southern Tibet is dead and so are their fighter patrols. The Indians have withdrawn all of their fighters and patrols south of the border while they consolidate their forces and lick their wounds. Punitive-Dragon did all it was supposed to do! It pushed them back and made the skies neutral once again for our land-forces.”

“At the cost of thirty-five frontline fighters!” Chen shouted back, causing Feng to flinch under the force of the General’s voice. “Only fifteen of our pilots have been recovered alive! The regiment commander is dead and so is that unit! What are you doing to my air-force?”

Feng frowned at the insinuation. He put his glasses into his shirt pocket after folding them as he considered his words:
“I am doing my duty! Nothing more! Nothing less! The 19TH Division was untested in combat and the Indians had their battle-hardened crews over southern Tibet. Had the times been different, I would have committed them to battle in smaller groups under controlled conditions so that combat experience could seep in to the rest of the group gradually. But understand this, General. We are out of time! The Indians were aggressively patrolling the skies over southern Tibet and venturing north after their attack and we showed them that the PLAAF is not to be taken lightly! I had to order the regiment in as one force. There was no other way to break through to the AWACS!”

Chen was seething with anger and Feng saw his fingers rolled into his palm as a fist with whitened knuckles. He was struggling against his inner anger at Feng and using every bit of self-control as an officer and senior commander to restrain himself…

Chen sighed and unclenched his fists, taking a deep breath. He wasn’t the only one doing so in the room.
“What now?” Chen asked as he rubbed his eyes and looked through the glass to see the operations staff busy at work. Feng removed his glasses from his pocket again and walked over to pick up some satellite imagery from the table. He realized his heart was pounding in his chest because of the past few seconds of talk.
“Well, I…”

Feng was interrupted midsentence as the doors slammed open once again and this time Generals Liu and Wencang walked in followed behind by Colonel Dianrong. Chen turned around to see the group entering the room.

“What is this?” Chen asked in surprise.
“This,” Liu said menacingly, “is what I am forced to do when I am told that we lost over thirty fighters in a single air battle against the Indians! When I heard it, I thought I needed to talk a stroll into your little paradise over here and figure out if you have decided to turn over this war to the Indians intentionally!”

“General! That’s quite enough!” Wencang shouted from where he stood, next to Liu. “I will not have you insult my command in this manner!”
Wencang turned to Chen and Feng: “Where is the commander of the 55TH Fighter Regiment? I will have him shot for failing to keep his unit’s training and motivations up to the standards of this air-force!”

“He’s dead, sir,” Feng said blandly.
“Is he now?” Liu observed, almost disappointedly. Feng clenched his hands into a fist behind his back but checked his reply:
“Yes sir! He died fighting the Indians. By all accounts he fought courageously and with determination. Our airborne-radar crews confirm that he was the one who took the shot that brought down the Indian airborne-radar aircraft over northern Bhutan. He was shot down as they attempted to disengage from battle.”

“You mean when he turned and ran!” Liu observed menacingly. Wencang and Chen gave him an ugly look. Feng was more composed.

“Not at all, sir,” he said after a couple of seconds. “His force was decimated by the time the enemy airborne-radar went down. He had no choice. But the Indians were determined to kill him after what he had done! They pursed and eliminated his aircraft and that of his wingman over Shigatse.”

“The man should be given a medal!” Wencang said finally. It was an order and was not open to discussion. Even Liu mumbled some expletive but otherwise nodded slightly to Feng.
“And he will be. See to it, Feng,” Chen ordered calmly as he stood away from the table.

“So what now?” Liu grunted.
“We pushed the Indians back across the border,” Wencang observed. “They know now what we will not tolerate. Maybe it’s time to end this war while we still retain the tools to make that assertion!”

“End the war on India’s terms?” Liu noted with fatalism. “Not a chance! You have other Fighter Divisions in Jining and Beijing MRAFs. I will get the CMC to authorize their release to the Lanzhou-Chengdu unified-MRAF to help replace your losses. Do not commit these units to battle! But make sure the Indians know we have them and are deploying them to Tibet. That will keep them on their toes while we make arrangements to force an end to this war on our terms.”

“The Indians cannot win a battle of attrition with us,” Feng noted in approval of Liu. That caused both Chen and Wencang to give the Senior-Colonel a sharp silent look.
“Neither can we, based on your loss statistics!” Wencang retorted.

“It won’t come to that,” Liu speculated confidently. “Punitive-Dragon was a massive lash from our side on the Indian air forces to remind them what our strengths are. In that it has achieved its goals psychologically and materially. We now have to show them the same boundaries on the ground. Once these lines are drawn, they will be forced to admit that conventional land offensives into Tibet will get them nowhere. And it will force them to the negotiating table. Keep the pressure on while I get our land forces to draw the line in the sand for the Indians!”


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 05:32 
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Cool, and if you need any more info at any level do let me know.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 06:31 
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Vivek,

I have posted some comments on your blog.

Akshay


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 07:03 
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Akshay, I did not see the comment posted on the blog. I wonder if you could email me at vivek_ahuja123 at yahoo dot com and we can take it from there?

Thanks


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 07:05 
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WEST OF BARSHONG
NORTHWESTERN BHUTAN
DAY 10 + 1540 HRS


The first sounds he heard above the ringing in his ears were the desperate screams of the soldiers running by. He coughed and spat out blood along with the dirt. After a few seconds staring at the blood seeping into the mud in front of him, he got up on his knees using his hands. Dirt and dust fell off his digital-camo uniform as he sat straight and stared above. The cold winds were still whipping his body, but he felt this immense heat from around him. He turned around to see the trees on fire and uprooted from the ground further down the slope. That was where a column of smoke was rising into the darkening sky above. He did turn his head up to see a blue sky there with white puffy clouds…

And his body became weak again. He fell down on his hands and used them to prevent himself falling forward. He took deep breaths to fill out his lungs after the air in them had been sucked out by the pressure waves that had rippled through his body. His hearing started coming back to him as he realized that he was beginning to hear the howl of the cold winds and the rumble of the raging fire in the trees near what was his Division Headquarters down the slope, a few hundred yards from him.
Used to be anyway… he corrected himself as he saw other soldiers further down writhing in pain and screaming for help while others staggered around looking for their rifles and comrades. He could now hear the distant screams of his men as his hearing restored.

He was lucky and he knew it. Had he not been away inspecting the ridges to the east of the village when the Indian rockets had rained down on his headquarters, he might not even be in one piece anymore.

How did they locate it so efficiently?

He did not have time to answer that one. He heard the distant rumble of whipping noises that seemed very familiar to him. Of course it did. They were made by Mi-17s approaching. He looked around and saw his men running around and grabbing their weapons as his mind raced through the analysis.

Approaching Mi-17s! Friendly? The Indians used them too…

He looked to the west towards the silhouetted and dark eastern slopes of the Chomolhari Mountain and realized that the whipping noises did not emanate from the west, where his friendly forces were. And that meant only one thing…

It was too late for that now. He saw the first Indian Mi-17 to the east as it cleared the ridgeline behind and above him and flared for a landing a few hundred meters away. Followed by more…a lot more!

He looked around for his personal sidearm and didn’t find it anywhere in the snow. He did see the dead body of his radioman lying in a pool of red blood soaked into the powdery white snow a few meters away. He dived for in the snow and took the QBZ-95 assault-rifle and checked the magazine and the weapon to make sure it was still operational. By this time the first sounds of gunfire from the east were filling the air. He saw soldiers and surviving officers from his headquarters grabbing their rifles and ordering men to head east and create a line of defense against the attacking Indian paratroopers.

He ensured the rifle was in one piece and turned the body of his radioman over to see a horrid scene. The man’s chest was ripped open by rocket shrapnel and still smoldering. He winced at the sight of the dead youngster and checked his harness for magazine rounds. He found two.

That will have to do!

He forced himself to his feet just as the Indian Mi-17s began lifting off after dropping off the Indian soldiers and were climbing back up the slope. They were trying to get out of the line of fire as quickly as they could. And sure enough, they were taking fire as yellow flashes of tracers were flying around them, some hitting the gray painted fuselages with distinct snags. He threw out an expletive and brought up his rifle to shoulder level, tugged it in and aimed down the sight, firing three-round bursts at the closest of the departing Indian helicopters. He aimed for the cockpit and kept firing bursts until he saw the starboard cockpit glass of the helicopter shatter into pieces and his rifle chamber clacking on metal, out of ammo…

To his satisfaction he saw the helicopter veering westwards, towards him and the sunlight from the west shined across the cockpit glass, now smattered red with blood from one of the crew members slumped in his seat. The PLA Major-General realized he must have hit the co-pilot and perhaps even the pilot. The helicopter leapt above his head a few seconds later amidst a roar of its blades and its shadow went over him as the pilot struggled to maintain attitude and fly the helicopter to safety.

It was not to be. As the General slapped a second magazine into his rifle and dropped the first in the snow near his feet, keeping his eyes fixed on the Indian helicopter to his west now, he flinched from the flash of light as a surface-to-air missile streaked across from bottom of the slope and slammed into the port engine of the Mi-17. The jarring explosion ripped the engine section apart and the main rotors immediately lost power, their RPM reducing as the front of the helicopter slammed into the snow covered rocks and settled down on the slope with a thud. It oscillated in its position violently and then flipped over as it rolled down the slope, shedding bits and pieces of the fuselage and the crushed cockpit glass. The General smiled as he saw the helicopter wreck rolling down the slope towards the village of Barshong in the valley below.

A small victory in all this mess!

Two of his soldiers ran up to him and knelt beside him, covering him with their rifles. He looked around and tried to make sense of the ground battle now taking place on the slope to his east between the survivors of his Highland Division headquarters and the Indian paratroopers. But it was a lost battle and he realized it. His experienced ears picked up the course of the battle from the gunfire noises. He ordered his men to move out towards where his ears told him were his men, fighting off the Indians…
They ran down the slope towards the blazing tree trunks and smoldering black craters dug out of the snow by the Indian rockets. He saw about two dozen or so scattered PLA soldiers from his unit fighting in twos and threes behind rocks and what remained of their bunkers within the rocky terrain. To the east he saw dozens of Indian paratroopers advancing tactically as they eliminated the still-dazed PLA opposition on the hilltop.

He was about to shout his first orders of this battle when one of the soldiers next to him shrieked and fell down forward into the snow, the General looked and saw a bullet ripped into his back as blood poured out. He turned around and saw about ten men moving down the top slope from his west, silhouetted by the setting sun behind them. One of the men’s optics glinted in the light and the General realized they were taking sniper fire and under attack from behind.

He brought up his rifle to aim but a bullet ripped through his arm a split second later while other rifle sounds from the nine men filled the air and threw up snow all around the two men. He turned and saw his arm bleeding profusely as the pain shot up to his head. He cursed and that turned out to be his last breath as another bullet caught him in the neck and exited from the back, slumping his dead body back into snow with a thud, followed soon thereafter by the other Chinese soldier…



…Tarun lowered his Dragunov rifle and looked over his optics to see the two bodies in the snow, a few hundred meters eats of them near the Chinese positions.
“Looks like I got myself somebody important!” he exclaimed over the rifle fire noises as Spear team got into the assault on Barshong.

“No shit! You want to keep firing though!” Vikram shouted from a half-dozen meters away as he slumped behind a boulder and removed another magazine from his harness belt pocket and dropped the first one from his Tavor rifle.

“Spear! Keep up the advance! Go! Go!” Pathanya shouted over the team’s comms and ran a few dozen feet down the slope to another cover position as the handful of PLA survivors on this slope started returning fire and bullets began ricocheting around nearby rocks.

The Indian paratroopers of the 11TH Para-SF Battalion had landed behind enemy ridgeline defenses east of Barshong on board air-force Mi-17s. They had followed just behind the rocket barrage fire from Lieutenant-Colonel Fernandez that had eliminated a good portion of the PLA Highland Division headquarters just seconds before the assault. But they had to move fast and secure Barshong before the three other PLA companies on the ridgelines east of here realized they had been bypassed and began arriving in force to the village below…

Pathanya looked up and saw the sunlight from the west glinting off the Searcher-II UAV overhead in the blue sky. He removed the SATCOM speaker from his chest harness and pushed it under his boonie-hat.
“Warlord-central, this is Spear-One! Do you copy? Over?”

“Roger, Spear-One. We copy all.” The line chimed a few seconds later from Joint-Force-Bhutan HQ.
“Spear has successfully bypassed Barshong defenses and is eliminating the objective at Bravo! Main Para force has arrived and is rolling to the objective as well. We confirm loss of one of our birds to enemy fire but the others egressed safely. We need you to initiate bombardment of eastern ridgelines and suppress enemy positions while we terminate enemy command and control at Barshong! Over!”

“Roger. We confirm your arrival at objective as well. Hotel-Six will suppress. Out!”
Pathanya put the speaker back into its slot in the harness and looked around. Vikram, Tarun, Sarvanan, Ravi and the others were already past his position and advancing under rapidly reducing fire from the PLA positions below them on the slope. He saw the 11TH Battalion paratroopers under Colonel Misra also overrunning the former PLA Highland Divisional headquarters and taking no prisoners. They shot and they killed as the few surviving Chinese soldiers began panicking under the sustained and brutal assault. Soon the sounds of QBZ-95 rifles were subsiding in his ears…

He jerked up as the sky above filled with the screech of diving supersonic shells and the PLA positions east of Barshong disappeared in a line of smoke filled explosions. A cloud of brown dust rose into the sky for hundreds of feet. The rumble from the explosions passed through his feet several seconds later.

Pathanya got on his feet and advanced down the slope to catch up with his men further down. He saw Vikram and Tarun walking cautiously towards the three dead bodies lying just above the Chinese positions on the slope. Vikram slung his rifle on the chest and pulled out his thigh-holstered sidearm as they slowly approached the three bodies. Tarun looked over to Vikram who nodded. So he lowered his Dragunov rifle and knelt beside the center body and turned him over. It was an old man with white hair and a black star on his digital-camo uniform. Tarun whistled and stood up on his feet.

“What is it?” Pathanya said as he jogged over the snow to their position.
“The Chinese Division commander,” Vikram said soberly.

Pathanya looked over the body and sighed. He looked around as the hills to the east rumbled again as a second salvo from Hotel-Six ripped the PLA positions there to shreds while more Mi-17 noises began rumbling from the south…

“Okay, you two,” Pathanya ordered, “make sure to check all of his pockets for papers and anything else you can find. The intelligence boys will be very interested in knowing what this man carried with him. If possible, we will get his body out on one of the outgoing birds. I am taking the rest of the team and meeting up with the Paras in the village below so that the Colonel knows we are in one piece. Understood?”

Pathanya trudged off in the snow leaving the two men to their new job. He walked past the smoking tree trunks and bodies of the PLA soldiers. He saw Indian soldiers in the ruins of the village as they pursued the last Chinese survivors retreating to the west towards Mount Chomolhari, leaving their Division staging area in northern Bhutan to the Indian paratroopers…


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 07:28 
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Vivek ji,

Thank you. This is the only thread that shows some hope in these depressing times.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 08:04 
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EAST OF DA-NANG
THE SOUTH CHINA SEA
DAY 10 + 1600 HRS


“Tally ho!”
The two air-to-air armed Su-30s in the strike force of six banked away in unison as they spotted the two patrolling PLAAF Su-27s fifty kilometers to their north seconds after lighting up their radars. The two Chinese pilots were surprised at the sudden radar emissions south of them that showed Indian Su-30s. The PLAAF and the PLAN had not been expecting anything to happen so far to the east near their home waters between Vietnam and Hainan. At least not from the Indians! The PLAAF 2ND Fighter Division was tasked with the defense of Hainan island airbases from any threat and they had spent the last ten days doing nothing but patrols other than sending a gaggle of their brethren on a deep strike mission against the Indian Navy ASW aircraft several days ago. Two of those fighters had not returned, but they had shot down an Indian Il-38 anti-submarine aircraft before they had lost their lives to Indian fighters.

Since then operations had been very straightforward for the 2ND Division pilots and commanders. No country within Southeast Asia had openly sided with India in this war and that had greatly reduced the burden on the Hainan based PLAAF and PLAN units. Almost to the point of complacency with their airborne patrols…

The two Su-27s broke formation and dived as they saw the two Indian Su-30s getting into position for a missile shot. They threw off chaff clouds and pulled up at lower altitude before spreading out and heading south for their own shots. Their on-board RWRs were screeching now as they lined up and understood that the Indian pilots had seized on their element of surprise and pickled off two R-77s before them. It was only a matter of seconds before the two Su-27s fired off a volley of four PJ-12s in reply and broke formation again to evade the incoming missiles.

On the other side, the Indians did the same and deployed effective ECMs and chaff clouds to spoof the PJ-12s. Three of those missiles flew off erratically as they lost radar contact from their parent aircraft and the Indian ECMs cluttered up their onboard radar picture. The Indian R-77s had similar trouble, but one of them connected and exploded above the cockpit of one Su-27, detonating in a fireball that shredded the cockpit of the Su-27 and killed the pilot while severing the two vertical stabilizers at their roots. The aircraft yawed and spiraled into the blue waters below.

As the other Su-27 closed within visual range, the two Su-30s dived in after him and ensured he stayed away and unable to interfere with the real purpose of this mission…

The four other Su-30s from the No. 18 ‘Flying Bullets’ Squadron were still at high altitude and began spreading out in a line abreast formation just east of Vietnamese waters below. They carried only two R-77s each for air-to-air self-defense. On their centerline they carried the last few of the Brahmos ALCMs in the Indian arsenals. All four aircraft dropped their deadly cargo two hundred kilometers south of the southern coast of Hainan island and banked away as the missiles sped off and dropped to lower altitudes. Several hundred kilometers south of them, the two Indian Il-78 tankers were orbiting over the sea east of the Vietnamese coast and well within their long range radar detection. On this latter issue the Vietnamese air-force personnel had been briefed by their command to observe and ignore whatever they saw the Indians doing. But each of them could speculate amongst themselves as to what might be happening further north on Hainan and to that they shared smiles in silence. They all shared a common special love for China alongside the Indians…



On the southern coast of Hainan sat Sanya and Lingshui airbases. Both were home to the PLAN 9TH Fighter Division which operated the J-8s and JH-7s in a naval support role alongside the PLAAF 2ND Fighter Division forces. Both airbases were close to the coastline and much more open and exposed than the super-hardened airbase at Ledong in central Hainan. This latter airbase was not on the target listing because of the small number of ALCMs available and the hardened nature of the base. But Sanya and Lingshui were very much on that list…

Chinese long range surveillance radar on the mountain tops of central Hainan spotted the four supersonic blips on their screens as they split into a group of three heading somewhat east and the other blip moving north on the original path. The warning went out quickly to all airbases in Hainan and on Sanya and Lingshui, personnel abandoned their parked J-8s and JH-7s on the tarmac as the blip appeared over the horizon and the blue seas to the south.

Sanya was the first to be hit with the single Brahmos missile aimed for it. It flew over the waves of the beach and dived into open tarmac at Sanya amidst the parked JH-7s. It penetrated a dozen feet into the concrete and then exploded, ripping out the concrete in a hundred meter radius behind the pressure wave and demolished the line of parked JH-7s in split-seconds. The expanding pressure waves also ripped into the airbase facilities and shredded the terminal buildings at Sanya along with two parked airliner aircraft further down. The thunder from the explosion was heard all the way in villages in central Hainan while people in Sanya could plainly see the black column of smoke rising into the sky from the airbase there.

And then they heard three more distant rumbles form the direction of Lingshui…

By the time the six ‘Flying Bullets’ Su-30s began topping off their tanks from the Il-78s on their way south, the 2ND Fighter Division and the 9TH PLAN Fighter Divisions were scrambling fighters all over Hainan, but the Indians had a clear lead of more than a thousand kilometers on them and increasing. There was no hope of intercept with such kinetics. So as their aircraft began orbiting over Hainan on defensive patrols, they could see the columns of smoke and dust rising into the sky from the two airbases on the southern coast…


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 08:07 
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BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2004 12:31
Posts: 151
Location: Mumbai
Great stuff! very refreshing in the early morning.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 08:30 
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BRFite

Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Posts: 381
Location: USA
Oooh. The war is coming home, isn't it?

--Ashish


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