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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 00:33 
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hmmm. in that case, here is my speculation.

I think, the trailer will carry the stages of the K-4 missile. Weight and diameter match. Plus, I don't know what the ANS program is, but I could gather that it has got something to do with DRDL and BDL. Besides, whatever is being carried in the trailer is safeguarded against vibration, rain, fire and other environmental factors and handled with extreme care.

I think the stages will be carried separately in the trailer and final assembly will be done near the submarine before placing them in the launch tubes.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 00:43 
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I am most probably right with my speculation there :) .

ANS program stands for DRDO's Advanced Naval Systems Programme which designs (and builds) the K-15/K-4 missiles.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 00:48 
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I wonder and somewhat admire this DRDOs choli-daman way of divulging secrets. It NEVER officially accepted the K-4 missile. But now it gives out information which a lay-man can put together to understand that the K-4 missile is soon going to be tested, if not deployed.

The same goes for Nirbhay.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 01:45 
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indranilroy wrote:
I wonder and somewhat admire this DRDOs choli-daman way of divulging secrets. It NEVER officially accepted the K-4 missile. But now it gives out information which a lay-man can put together to understand that the K-4 missile is soon going to be tested, if not deployed.

The same goes for Nirbhay.


I was thinking about this as well. Surely things are not that outrageously open at these facilities that they have to put out tenders for trucks like some relocation company moving an IT person's living room from Bangalore to Delhi, right?

I mean, if these are unintentional, god help us and this country!

If they are intentional, the GOI certainly likes to insult the intelligence of the people outside by acting overly sly. Either way, they come of looking stupid IMO.

We know these systems are in development.
We know what platforms they will be deployed on.
We know even what targets they are meant for.
We know the operational requirements for such systems.
We know when they will likely finish these systems.

And by same token
We DON'T want to know their guidance system details
We DON'T want to know specifics about their internal design

And we won't know any of this if you just show us the exterior of the missile or tell us that Missile X has a range Y and takes time Z to fly to it.
What we WILL know is that our country is making progress on issues of national security and that our taxpayer funds are not being blown by the project directors on poker in Vegas.

So what the HELL are they hiding and why?

Agh! I get so frustrated by their antics these days. Sheesh. :evil:


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:28 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
indranilroy wrote:
I wonder and somewhat admire this DRDOs choli-daman way of divulging secrets. It NEVER officially accepted the K-4 missile. But now it gives out information which a lay-man can put together to understand that the K-4 missile is soon going to be tested, if not deployed.

The same goes for Nirbhay.


I was thinking about this as well. Surely things are not that outrageously open at these facilities that they have to put out tenders for trucks like some relocation company moving an IT person's living room from Bangalore to Delhi, right?

I mean, if these are unintentional, god help us and this country!

If they are intentional, the GOI certainly likes to insult the intelligence of the people outside by acting overly sly. Either way, they come of looking stupid IMO.

We know these systems are in development.
We know what platforms they will be deployed on.
We know even what targets they are meant for.
We know the operational requirements for such systems.
We know when they will likely finish these systems.

And by same token
We DON'T want to know their guidance system details
We DON'T want to know specifics about their internal design

And we won't know any of this if you just show us the exterior of the missile or tell us that Missile X has a range Y and takes time Z to fly to it.
What we WILL know is that our country is making progress on issues of national security and that our taxpayer funds are not being blown by the project directors on poker in Vegas.

So what the HELL are they hiding and why?

Agh! I get so frustrated by their antics these days. Sheesh. :evil:



Yes !! Its high time u take out all your fustration in your personal dhaga and blow up a few Chinese bases :evil: :twisted:


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:30 
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indranilroy wrote:
hmmm. in that case, here is my speculation.

.............
..............
I think the stages will be carried separately in the trailer and final assembly will be done near the submarine before placing them in the launch tubes.


U mean in the Arihant or in the Pontoon


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 03:49 
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Ah this semi is not going to be ready before 6 months at least ... So may be a pontoon, may be Arihant ... Or first a pontoon and later on onto Arihant.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 09:24 
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Two Pinaka variants under development
Quote:
After the success of the Pinaka multiple rocket launcher, ordnance factories are now developing two more of its variants, Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) chairman Sudhir Kumar Beri said here on Friday.

At present, there are two variants of the Pinaka and efforts are on to develop two more variants that can strike targets at double the existing range. A Detailed Project Report (DPR) was already sent to the government for approval, Mr. Beri said.

This apart, there are plans to enhance the production of the existing Pinaka rocket launchers from 2,000 to 5,000 per annum, he told The Hindu on the sidelines of 42{+n}{+d}All India Ordnance and Ordnance Equipment Factories Annual athletic meet 2012-13 at the Medak ordnance factory.


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 15:46 
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^^^ Pinaka numbers are not moving anywhere close to the planned #s, initially it was the non-availability of thungsten balls, now the whole TATRA truck fiasco... Een if OFB magically produces 5K rockets a year, we will not be having enough launchers... Thanks to TATRA and BEML...


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PostPosted: 05 Jan 2013 16:08 
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Any idea how far are hubs of Talibarbarians located in Afghanistan from Indian border, including direct distance over PoK?

It should not matter if man and machine flies over PoK to strike pakibans in Afghanistan.


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 02:32 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
Agh! I get so frustrated by their antics these days. Sheesh. :evil:


Let me help you :P :twisted:

Composite pumpjet propulsor


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2013 06:06 
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vishvak wrote:
It should not matter if man and machine flies over PoK to strike pakibans in Afghanistan.

Why would we want to hit them while we hug the Talbarbarians of Islumabad, Kraachi and Lawhore. The latter are worse and are much closer. Unless we are trying to do Amreekas work


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 05:59 
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indranil, Is ADE the lead agency for the K-4/K-15 series?


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 06:33 
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Mishra dhatu nigam makes tungsten alloys but nobody buys the alloys made there in quantity
It's like another IIT name waste not kam ke waste


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 08:55 
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ramana wrote:
indranil, Is ADE the lead agency for the K-4/K-15 series?


No. ADE's mandate unmanned aerial vehicles, cruise missiles, LGB kit, and flight simulators. [ADE's areas of work]

I have no insider information about K-4/K-15. I was just tracking some people who are now known to be attached to the project. I think this entire Program is being run from Hyderabad. Most probably BDL is the production agency and DRDL is the RnD agency center.


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PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013 17:35 
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shiv wrote:
vishvak wrote:
It should not matter if man and machine flies over PoK to strike pakibans in Afghanistan.

Why would we want to hit them while we hug the Talbarbarians of Islumabad, Kraachi and Lawhore. The latter are worse and are much closer. Unless we are trying to do Amreekas work

A direct assult over PoK will not affect India directly and Indians don't need to react to anyone's accusations as enemy the way others make it appear so. US has nothing to lose to talibans in Afghanistan so any equation set by US do not matter to Afghanistan directly as it is. What matters much more is whether assaults/attacks on talibarbarians would help in restoring peace in Afghanistan so any credibility given to any pakibans and other talibarbarians by way of talks etc is relative and less in importance to restoring peace and adding to prosperity in Afghanistan always.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 00:32 
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Agni Missiles: More than what meets the eye?

Quote:
Agni missiles, Agni-III and Agni-V are quite possibly full-fledged ICBMs masquerading as IRBMs.


http://defenceforumindia.com/agni-missi ... e-eye-1496


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 02:09 
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People like Arun_S have been alluding to this for a while but I see no reason to draw attention to it. 5500-6000 km pretty much covers India's current needs.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 02:52 
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vivek_ahuja wrote:
indranilroy wrote:
I wonder and somewhat admire this DRDOs choli-daman way of divulging secrets. It NEVER officially accepted the K-4 missile. But now it gives out information which a lay-man can put together to understand that the K-4 missile is soon going to be tested, if not deployed.

The same goes for Nirbhay.


If they are intentional, the GOI certainly likes to insult the intelligence of the people outside by acting overly sly. Either way, they come of looking stupid IMO.

<SNIP>

So what the HELL are they hiding and why?

Agh! I get so frustrated by their antics these days. Sheesh. :evil:

I think you are giving them less credit than they deserve. Why would they care about the thousand-odd defense jingos in India. I don't think they are hiding or revealing anything to us jingos.

IMO, the intended audience of this leak are strategist from other countries. It allows some countries to overlook such developments and some other countries to be warned against any misadventure. And I am pretty sure all those countries have taken notes.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 03:01 
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http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defe ... lkata.html

The pic clearly shows the pinaka-II is just an improvement of the existing Pinaka to improve the range to 60 km without increasing the diameter though the length has increased by 25 cm.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 04:13 
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Me think A-5 is a 13k unit.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 05:07 
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Bheeshma wrote:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/defence-strategic-issues/46201-snapshots-drdo-exhibits-iscs-pride-india-expo-kolkata.html

The pic clearly shows the pinaka-II is just an improvement of the existing Pinaka to improve the range to 60 km without increasing the diameter though the length has increased by 25 cm.


depressing bit of news from that link... on top that LGB series of pics? did it even hit the target?


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 05:13 
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James B wrote:
Agni Missiles: More than what meets the eye?

Quote:
Agni missiles, Agni-III and Agni-V are quite possibly full-fledged ICBMs masquerading as IRBMs.


http://defenceforumindia.com/agni-missi ... e-eye-1496


See all this is paper ranges which ignores the credibility requirements. Indian payload is heavy and cant be lessened with out further testing.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 07:31 
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Looking at angle of sudarshan approaching the target, it would not miss unless that pic were doctored. I think they might have used a radio proximity fuse to explode a small charge surrounded by bags of maida to get that whiteout effect.
Butter naan.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 07:36 
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Singha wrote:
Looking at angle of sudarshan approaching the target, it would not miss unless that pic were doctored. I think they might have used a radio proximity fuse to explode a small charge surrounded by bags of maida to get that whiteout effect.
Butter naan.


In any case that is a 500 kg bomb - enough to destroy half a city block. That explosion is just a token for the camera, a practice bomb. It would not be an advantage to be anywhere within 100 meters of a 500 kg/1000 pound bomb explosion.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 07:40 
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Quote:
Agni missiles, Agni-III and Agni-V are quite possibly full-fledged ICBMs masquerading as IRBMs.

I have heard this too but sorry me being me I don't take anything at face value; unless there is any data apart from usual hopeful thoughts on the lines of injuns are like this onlee we short sell our capabilities I am only going by what published data in open states.

Once you start doing such dramabazi one can even claim S-1 is a Gigatonne device masquerading as kT device onlee; arrey thoda to consistency rakho. :roll:


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 09:21 
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hopefully we will see sudarshan delivered live in the upcoming IAF firepower demo late Jan around 26th.

in 2010 vayu shakti there was live coverage by one channel (times now?) incl uav footage of the flying a/c from a higher perch. hope its bettered this time.

we have enough useful techs now like sudarshan, prahaar, shourya, pinaka2, arjun2 to make life difficult for anyone..what matters now is funds , QC and production capacity to build mass.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 09:31 
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I don't care if the powers that be don't share the correct specs with us. As long as they are consistently better, more powerful and devastating than what we get to know about.

if we dhothi shiver because of lower specs, then we should be happy that the silk pajamas and the browned shalwars will be shivering even more wondering what we are hiding! :twisted:


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 09:47 
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Bheeshma wrote:
People like Arun_S have been alluding to this for a while but I see no reason to draw attention to it. 5500-6000 km pretty much covers India's current needs.


exactly ! shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhig
:D

Yes people. Speak softly, allude to a big stick, carry a big stick and wield it when necessary.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 11:20 
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Tenders for new medium range anti Ship missiles for Indian Navy...

http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?t ... no=1&td=TD

the RFP looks surprisingly simple in terms of its layout and text.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 12:40 
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choti muh bari baat sarkar but maybe uran is on way out and MM39/harpoon on its way in?

the earliest batches of urans must be nearing 15 yrs old now...


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 18:11 
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Soaring High - FRONTLINE
Quote:
Imagine a 50-tonne missile, encased in a 20-metre-long canister, being propelled into the air by a gas generator in a matter of 1.5 seconds. And imagine how much propulsion power the gas generator should pack within it, and how complex the entire operation must be when the missile is fired from a truck big and strong enough to absorb the shock of the blast-off.

That is exactly what the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) missile-making laboratory in Hyderabad, will achieve this year when the Agni-V missile will bolt out of a canister mounted on a Tatra truck from Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast, traverse more than 5,000 kilometres across the sky, and then splash into the Indian Ocean.

The ASL, founded on September 28, 2001, is the “baby” in the DRDO’s vast missile complex in Hyderabad. The other two DRDO laboratories here are the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) and the Research Centre Imarat.

India’s Agni series of missiles, all of which can carry nuclear warheads, are products of the ASL.

Heading the ASL is V.G. Sekaran, one of the architects of Agni-V, which had its successful maiden launch on April 19, 2012. The 17.5-metre-long, three-stage Agni-V, weighing 50 tonnes, lifted off from a rail-mobile launcher on Wheeler Island, made a 20-minute flight during which its three stages ignited and jettisoned on time, its warhead carrying explosives erupted into a fireball, and then it dived into the waters of the Indian Ocean between Australia and Madagascar. The missile was not encased in a canister.

But in the first half of 2013, perhaps in June, Agni-V will soar into the sky from a canister mounted on a launch platform integrated with a truck, which is called a road-mobile launcher. A gas generator placed at the bottom of the canister will erupt into life and push the missile out of the tube. After the missile comes out of the tube, its ignition will take place in the air. In firing such an intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) from a canister, a complex technology comes into play. In missile parlance, a canisterised launch is called a “cold launch”.

“We are vigorously working on the canisterised launch,” ASL Director Sekaran said. It is a very involved job in terms of the number of sub-systems that will be employed. The canister will be the biggest made in the country. The ASL has done specialised work in the design and engineering of the canister and the gas generator. It involves aerospace mechanism, too.

Although India’s supersonic cruise missiles BrahMos and hypersonic surface-to-surface missile Shourya are canisterised missiles and the DRDO had testfired them many times, this is the first time it will be firing a missile of the 50-tonne class from a tube. Besides, the missile is 17.5 metres long. While BrahMos weighs only three tonnes and is only nine metres long, Shourya weighs about six tonnes and is 10 m long . So the ASL will perform numerous qualification tests before Agni-V is put inside the canister. Insertion tests will be done. Instead of the real missile, an equivalent will be put inside the tube and a battery of tests done. The work towards this has been going on for the past six months. It will be done in two modes: proving the canister and the missile separately. Then the two will be put together and the final flight trials from the canister will be done. Finally, the DRDO will go in for the missile’s deliverable version.

Dr V.G. Sekaran, ASL Director . "It is important not only to make the missile, but to make it able to survive."

“We will ensure that all the systems work perfectly before we put the actual missile inside the tube,” said the ASL Director. “We are on the job now. It is in a fairly advanced stage of demonstration. Then we will put the actual missile inside the canister and do a trial launch.”

Although the principles for pushing Agni-V out from a canister are the same as for BrahMos and Shourya, which have been testfired from canisters many times, its engineering becomes very difficult, because of the canister’s size and the missile’s heavy nozzles, said Sekaran. Besides, there is no market for such canisters and not everybody can produce it.

All the Agni missiles, including Agni-III, IV and V, will be road-mobile. That is, they will be launched from trucks because a road-mobile system affords flexible deployment. It can be fired after parking the truck on a highway. It can also be camouflaged. From now on, all missile systems of India will be road-mobile because the DRDO found out in the last 10 years that rail-mobile systems were complex to operate.

The ASL’s mandate was to develop carbon composites and large-sized rocket motors. It achieved a breakthrough in building rocket motor casings made of composites for Agni-IV which led to weight reduction of the rocket stages, ensuring a longer range for the missile. These carbon-composites are used to cover a part of India’s light combat aircraft Tejas, and brake discs in fighter aircraft; they also go into the making of light-weight callipers for polio-affected children ( Frontline, October 7, 2005). Many of the technologies developed by the ASL for Agni-IV were fed into Agni-V.

The laboratory did seminal work when it developed a carbon-carbon composite for Agni missiles’ heat-shields. Agni missiles’ re-entry vehicles (REV) have their electronics and nuclear warhead inside. The REVs are protected by heat-shields. When an REV re-enters the earth’s atmosphere, its carbon-composite tiles should withstand the heat generated, about 5,000° Celsius. Also, the temperature inside the REV should not be more than 50° C so as not to damage the electronic equipment, which is the vehicle’s brain.

Besides Agni-V’s canisterised launch, the ASL is currently working on using decoy systems in India’s strategic missiles such as the Agni variants, which are all ballistic missiles. These decoys will be required to confuse the enemy’s anti-ballistic missile system. “It is important not only to make the missile, but to make it able to survive,” Sekaran said. “If you were to fire a strategic missile and the enemy has an anti-ballistic missile system to engage your missile, how do you overcome the hurdle and deliver your warhead?” he asked. So the ASL is working on the “theory of decoys”, which means India’s strategic missiles will be able to confuse the enemy’s radar systems, penetrate its air defence system and deliver the warhead. “We are working on this vigorously as an extension of the overall systems’ deployment to ensure that the missile survives in its journey,” said Sekaran.

On the technology front, the ASL is working on more advanced, bigger and modified rocket casings, which would be light and thereby reduce the mass of the system. This will ensure a longer range for the missile—that is, it can travel longer distances. If the mass of the rocket motor stage is reduced, its weight comes down. ASL scientists are working on a new set of composite materials to achieve a big mass fraction in rocket casings.

In the ASL, there are small groups working on designing and engineering radomes which may not be required for the Agni class of missiles but for tactical missiles. A radome normally sits in a missile’s front cone, which houses the warhead. The front cone has a terminal guidance system called the seeker. The seeker’s job is to emit electromagnetic waves, map the target and control the missile. So the front cone should be able to transmit the electromagnetic waves. This front cone, which transmits radio frequency waves, is called a radome. Normal materials such as metals will not be able to transmit the electromagnetic waves. Special materials such as composites and ceramics are needed to enable the electromagnetic waves to go out. The ASL has already made big radomes for Tejas and these have been flight-tested successfully.

Since nanotechnology goes into advanced composite structures, an ASL team is working on nanotube technology to put carbon nanotubes (CNTs) in the composites to increase the latter’s strength. The ASL has done some studies on mixing the CNTs with resin and making a composite which has a tougher structure and better properties compared to the composites where the CNTs are not inserted. “We have done studies and we got good results,” said Sekaran.

On its website, the Department of Science and Technology (DST) says the Union government had in May 2007 approved the launch of a mission on nanoscience and technology, called Nano Mission, with an allocation of Rs.1,000 crores for five years. According to the website, the Nano Mission will strive for the development of products and processes in safe drinking water, materials development, sensors’ development, precise drug delivery, and so on.

Miniaturised systems with several integration functions will become a key technology in future and the ASL is working in that area. For instance, a mobile phone of today has many integrated functions, including texting messages, receiving email, listening to music, and playing games. “Similar concepts can be applied to our missile systems,” said Sekaran.

There are two levels of work involved in this: making miniaturised systems and integrating various functions in the system. “Today, you can have four systems in a single unit and they will do different jobs. In the long run, in the automobile and aerospace industries, you will find that systems integration has become the key word,” he said. A single small unit in a missile system should have propulsion power, be able to receive telemetry signals and so on. So the volume, the mass and the complexity of wiring will come down. It will have more testability and reliability.



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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 19:32 
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Quote:
From now on, all missile systems of India will be road-mobile because the DRDO found out in the last 10 years that rail-mobile systems were complex to operate.

Hmmmm.....end of the rail mobile era for Desh?
Isnt that also required( with road mobile) since we need to have a robust 2nd strike capability?

Also, the article maintains complete silence on the MIRV side. Wasnt that supposed to be the priority # 1 as per ASL statements after the A-V was first launched last year?


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 20:34 
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Prithwiraj wrote:
Tenders for new medium range anti Ship missiles for Indian Navy...

http://tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.asp?t ... no=1&td=TD

the RFP looks surprisingly simple in terms of its layout and text.


Going by the specs provided in the tender such as overall weight, warhead weight, range, seeker technology etc., does anyone have any guesses on the likely contenders ?

Kh-35 Uran?
Harpoon Block II?
Exocet MM40 Block 3?
Kongsberg NSM?
IAI / MBT Advanced Naval Attack Missile?
None of them?
Something else entirely?

Which platform will these missiles go on? P-15B's?


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 21:22 
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probably it will replace the urans which are getting old. maybe they have a shelf life ....

harpoon looks the most well funded and complete (if we get the best version)

MM40 is also a possibility with its 200km range.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 22:06 
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Gabriel V is a possibility.

this missile brings new littoral attack capabilities to the table.

and MF-STAR can be used for vectoring it.

our dialogue with the israelis on naval offensive and defensive systems is pretty close.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 23:24 
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Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Posts: 1138
Location: mumbai
arun wrote:
Going by the specs provided in the tender such as overall weight, warhead weight, range, seeker technology etc., does anyone have any guesses on the likely contenders? Which platform will these missiles go on? P-15B's?


The clue to above questions is
Quote:
5. Weight of Missile Not exceeding 1000 kg


Any ship equal or above 3000 tonnes can carry BrahMos or Klub. However, ships lower than this displacement will need a lighter missile.

P-15A & B are overkill for Pakistan. That is why only 3000-4000 tonne class ships are deployed with WNC (6 x Type 16/A & 5 x Type 1135.6 1 x Type 12M). All heavier ships (with greater range/endurance) are with ENC (5 x Type 61M, 3 x Type 15, 3 x Type 17).

I believe new corvette & FAC classes are planned to complement Kukhri/Kora/Veer classes and this missile be a part of those classes. Dealing with Pakistan requires 2500 tonne class ships while protecting easten seaboard requires 7000 tonne class ships.

We've only 4 Kukhri & 4 Kora class ships when atleast 12 are required.

Added later - just realized the P-15 missiles on 4 x Kukhri & 10 x Veer require replacement. These ships have insufficient deck penetration for BrahMos & cannisters will make them top heavy affecting seaworthiness.


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PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013 23:51 
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BRFite

Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10
Posts: 1563
The > Mach 0.9 spec disqualifies Harpoon


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2013 00:59 
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Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
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Location: Lone Star State
D Roy wrote:
Gabriel V is a possibility.

this missile brings new littoral attack capabilities to the table..
My money is on a desi missile... utmost a JV with Yehudis...
This would probably be the missile which would be arming our OPVs and Corvettes of the future... the bigger Frigates, destroyers and Cruisers ( I can dream right) would all sport Brahmos, Nirbhay and their siblings...


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PostPosted: 09 Jan 2013 01:03 
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Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
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Location: Lone Star State
SSridhar wrote:
Soaring High - FRONTLINE

Amazing article... many nuggets of information if we read the article carefully... one can deduce more if reading between the lines...

some things stand out...
1) DRDOs confidence in A-V should be really high to try Cannisterized launch so early in the testing cycle.
2) Weight reduction / optimization should have been accomplished, hence the move to launch from a road-mobile launcher. I don't even remember A-I or A-II being launched from a PURE ROAD mobile launcher till date... would be happy to see pictures if they have been.

more on this later in the day...


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