Statewide and National runup to 2014 General elections

[RoyG]

Just came across Swatantra party manifesto.

http://swatantraparty.in/swatantraparty ... festo.html

[Atri]

Just came across Swatantra party manifesto.

http://swatantraparty.in/swatantraparty ... festo.html

Swatantrata party is the only genuinely right wing party of India.. Its a shame that it did not take off..

[Supratik]

The elusive 2011 census numbers on religion as speculated by - The UQ's Economist , take it with a sackful of salt.
But this report also mentions that they are not going to be revealed by Congrezzis till after elections .

My estimate after going through census data is between 14 to 14.2% Muslim population and 79.7 to 79.9% Hindu population. However, there will serious demographic changes in Assam, WB and Kerala.

[RoyG]

^^I agree. I think hindu's are now in the upper 70's while the muslim population may be in mid 20's.

[ramana]

X-post....

We really need a thread dedicated to the 2014 General Election. A list of each MP, from each district, in each state must be collected and compiled to see where things are headed. The following is a good list to start with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_me ... y_state%29

Mort this thread is for run-up to general elections when ever they are.

[Sushupti]

Just came across Swatantra party manifesto.

http://swatantraparty.in/swatantraparty ... festo.html

Swatantrata party is the only genuinely right wing party of India.. Its a shame that it did not take off..

Are you saying BJP isn't a genuine right wing party?

[Pranav]

http://post.jagran.com/at-last-evms-wil ... 1362211557#

After standing on false prestige and even becoming vindictive against those who suspected the integrity of electronic voting machines, the Election Commission has finally acceded to the demand that the machines must issue a paper receipt to voters.

Not so fast, I am sure EC will find a way to postpone paper trail for another 10 or 20 years.

Actually what is required is an interim order requiring use of traditional paper ballots till such time as a paper trail is introduced. S. Swamy has not made any such plea in his petition as far as I know. Nor is anybody else taking it up.

What may happen is this - EC will earnestly say that they are working on the matter and will have pilot trials within the next few years. Court will merely suggest to EC to continue its work.

[Yagnasri]

The stupid word Atalji used was Gandheya Socializam. I do not know what it really mean. Rajaji and other leaders tried to reason with Nehru and other leftist leadership and the result was Swaraja Party which is against Licence permit and kota raj of Congress.

[Aditya_V]

Just came across Swatantra party manifesto.

http://swatantraparty.in/swatantraparty ... festo.html

Swatantrata party is the only genuinely right wing party of India.. Its a shame that it did not take off..

Are you saying BJP isn't a genuine right wing party?

If you consider the liberal Parties in the west say the Democrats, the BJP is to the Left of them.

Not to speak of the Liberal parties in Pakistan.

[Atri]

Swatantrata party is the only genuinely right wing party of India.. Its a shame that it did not take off..

Are you saying BJP isn't a genuine right wing party?

Of course not.. BJP is Indic Socialist (so is RSS). The entire world-view of DD Upadhyay is socialistic but firmly rooted in indic sanskriti. It is difficult to put Indic outlooks in western categories. If we look at global perspective and view things from absolute scale, BJP is left to the center. I personally too tilt towards leftism. We have a strong Indic socialist movement in India in form of RSS. We actually do not need CPM and INC type henchmen (which are exactly that - Henchmen of the communists, west and islamist network). RSS backed BJP asIndia's left and Swatantrata Party like party as India's Right will be the time when India's ascent will begin in full flow.

No party in present India can afford to be seen as seriously economic right-winger (overtly capitalistic and free-market advocating). Swatantrata Party shows a hint of this. Read their manifesto and history. In long term, it will be swatantrata party type parties who will be demanding that Hindus be given preferential rights in India, banning conversion out of Hindu faiths, legally welcoming conversions into Hindu faith, Varnashrama system be calibrated and implemented in India, federalization and decentralization of polity, rethinking over universal franchise, abolishing current tax-structure and reforming it to "taxation at source" model, restarting ashwamedha type conquests to periodically sanitize the neighborhood of nefarious elements. some of them are agreeable demands (to my indic-leftist mind) and some of them aren't. But I recognize the need of these opinions to be voiced systematically in India.

BJP and RSS cannot even think of demanding these things.

Nothing to judge here. Hindu civilization, is in general, left of the center in comparison with abrahmic religions and civilization.

[Arjun]

Of course not.. BJP is Indic Socialist (so is RSS). The entire world-view of DD Upadhyay is socialistic but firmly rooted in indic sanskriti. It is difficult to put Indic outlooks in western categories. If we look at global perspective and view things from absolute scale, BJP is left to the center.

But no party can afford to be seen as seriously economic right-winger (overtly capitalistic and free-market advocating). Swatantrata Party shows a hint of this. Read their manifesto and history. It is basically party for elite men by elite men of royalty and their coterie.

Nothing to judge here. Hindu civilization, is in general, left of the center in comparison with abrahmic religions and civilization.

Atri, this is sheer BS.

Hindu civilization is left of center from a social standpoint because there are no conservative dogmas to enforce, but there is NOTHING to support the argument that it is leftist from an economics standpoint. And right-wing economics is NOT the same as economy for elites by elites, which is a complete misunderstanding. Right wing economics is for equitable growth of the whole of society - but it differs from the left on the prescription on how this can be achieved.

The Jagdish Bhagwati school is right-wing in the Indian context - and I would rate Modi as the best and most visionary right-wing politician in the country.

[Atri]

Of course not.. BJP is Indic Socialist (so is RSS). The entire world-view of DD Upadhyay is socialistic but firmly rooted in indic sanskriti. It is difficult to put Indic outlooks in western categories. If we look at global perspective and view things from absolute scale, BJP is left to the center.

But no party can afford to be seen as seriously economic right-winger (overtly capitalistic and free-market advocating). Swatantrata Party shows a hint of this. Read their manifesto and history. It is basically party for elite men by elite men of royalty and their coterie.

Nothing to judge here. Hindu civilization, is in general, left of the center in comparison with abrahmic religions and civilization.

Atri, this is sheer BS.

Hindu civilization is left of center from a social standpoint because there are no conservative dogmas to enforce, but there is NOTHING to support the argument that it is leftist from an economics standpoint. And right-wing economics is NOT the same as economy for elites by elites, which is a complete misunderstanding. Right wing economics is for equitable growth of the whole of society - but it differs from the left on the prescription on how this can be achieved.

The Jagdish Bhagwati school is right-wing in the Indian context - and I would rate Modi as the best and most visionary right-wing politician in the country.

Arjun ji, I have already removed the sentence of elite men from the post long ago. I have put by thoughts in better words so I did not need "elite". So please consider my reconsidered position.

Yes, Namo is one right winger in BJP. But you cannot say such things about RSS and Integral Humanism of BJP, can you? Namo is one individual, not a party.

Yes, Hindu civilization is inherently free market based (reasons are many and from antiquity). But do we have a strong Indic Vaishya Lobby in India which controls and generates Indic capital and GDP. How much of the money of Ambanis and Tatas, is really Indic money eventually? There is a CT about IG and Dhirubhai's bonds which is mentioned in polyester prince book (and hinted in movie Guru). Gandhi family's money is eventually western and islamist money.

We had our own JP Morgans, Goldman Sachs, Warren Buffet, Rockefellers, Rothchilds type business houses (many of them). Read about the banking house of Jagat Seths which were few of the last ones to go. You may also want to read about Sindhi traders of Shikarpur and their financial guilds. The marwadi financial houses financed the military-Industrial complex of Marathas vanished after 1818. Last of them vanished after 1857. Parag Tope explains it beautifully in his book. We had control of money flow from east to west. Those who facilitated the flow of bullion in and out of india were Hindu traders. Who controls the international money flow today? It is few English+Dutch+American investors at the top.

Point being, there cannot be a Indic right wing party, because there isn't any Indic capital. it is slowly building up (first in form of human resources who will start generating value and capital from land in next 25-30 years as started in GJ). Until we have substantial Indic capital, Vaishya tradition of India cannot be revived.

So, in current times we live in (and next 50 years or so), Hindu civilization, India (and BJP, if she lasts that long) will be overtly leftists socialistic. Civilization and identity is continuous process Arjun ji. We have a capitalist core, but it is incapable of showing itself.

[Sanku]

Sadhu Atri ji Sadhu

[Arjun]

Arjun ji, I have already removed the sentence of elite men from the post long ago. I have put by thoughts in better words so I did not need "elite". So please consider my reconsidered position.

Atri ji, as long as right-wing is not misunderstood as economics of 'elites' looking after their own interests that is fine. In the long term, though I (and many eminent economists like Jagdish Bhagwati) believe that free trade, globalization, and emphasis on economic growth is the best way to achieve a wealthy AND equitable society.

But you cannot say such things about RSS and Integral Humanism of BJP, can you? Namo is one individual, not a party.

These terms were probably put together in the 60s or 70s, right ? By the term 'capitalism' these people in those times automatically assumed certain attributes - such as exploitative, no worker's rights etc. Both the world and India have come a very, loong way since then - so I would be extremely surprised if even the original authors of these documents have not refined their views.

'Swadeshi' as in where there are no large factories, and India does not import etc are outdated concepts. What 'swadeshi' means to me is that we have a strong pool of entrepreneurs who can beat the rest of the world in exporting and popularizing Indian goods and 'Made in India' tag. Without the boom of the nineties and early noughties of this century - that 'self confidence' in the ability of Indian entrepreneurs, I admit - would have been difficult to come by.

Yes, Hindu civilization is inherently free market based (reasons are many and from antiquity).

Absolutely. Hinduism is essentially about free choice and it is probably the only religion where Lakshmi (as in wealth) is literally worshipped. Indian traders and vaishyas were always among the best in the world, and probably got relegated only during British times.

But do we have a strong Indic Vaishya Lobby in India which controls and generates Indic capital and GDP. How much of the money of Ambanis and Tatas, is really Indic money eventually?

There are annual estimates of the total wealth held by HNIs in India as well as by NRIs abroad. So these figures are widely tracked. India + NRIs may account for 3% of total worldwide HNI wealth. Now that is obviously below the pro-rata share that Indians should be holding given the population - but the growth rate on Indian wealth is higher than the rest of the world and at some point in the next 25 years, Indian HNI wealth would exceed its share of population. As to how much of this money is available for Indic causes though is a different question - and more professionalism is required on that side.

Those who facilitated the flow of bullion in and out of india were Hindu traders. Who controls the international money flow today? It is few English+Dutch+American investors at the top.

It is an open market system - and Indians (especially Gujjus who control most of Dalal Street) can over a period of time come to dominate the system as they have come to dominate the diamond business. For that to happen - there also needs to be somebody like Modi who understands the importance of Indian goods and services controlling as much of global trade as possible.

Point being, there cannot be a Indic right wing party, because there isn't any Indic capital. it is slowly building up (first in form of human resources who will start generating value and capital from land in next 25-30 years as started in GJ). Until we have substantial Indic capital, Vaishya tradition of India cannot be revived.

A lot of Indic capital is available...if somebody can package and present policies in the right way.

India is actually far more rightist today than most European countries. There is no need for free-market advocacy in India - when in India a lot more sectors are today in the free market which are not even so in most other countries (education, healthcare, infrastructure....)

[Atri]

But you cannot say such things about RSS and Integral Humanism of BJP, can you? Namo is one individual, not a party.

These terms were probably put together in the 60s or 70s, right ? By the term 'capitalism' these people in those times automatically assumed certain attributes - such as exploitative, no worker's rights etc. Both the world and India have come a very, loong way since then - so I would be extremely surprised if even the original authors of these documents have not refined their views.

'Swadeshi' as in where there are no large factories, and India does not import etc are outdated concepts. What 'swadeshi' means to me is that we have a strong pool of entrepreneurs who can beat the rest of the world in exporting and popularizing Indian goods and 'Made in India' tag. Without the boom of the nineties and early noughties of this century - that 'self confidence' in the ability of Indian entrepreneurs, I admit - would have been difficult to come by.

I agree about the self-confidence slowly returning in Indics. But I think we are talking on different planes and hence appearing to contradict each other. We are in fact in agreement.

70s, 80s, 90s is moot point in argument I am trying to make. I am not an economist by training. But there is simple fact which I like to apply to put things in perspective.

Physical OR material wealth is the only real wealth (land, gold, service, food, cattle, human resource, minerals, technology and IPR, trade-routes access etc). Its interesting that you talked about lakshmi, because these are what we consider as lakshmi (I am discounting mahalakshmi - mental peace since she is not quantifiable). Stock market and E-money is not the real indicator of country's wealth (in my very ganvaar dehati SDRE understanding). Furthermore, access to the transit routes for goods (real - material items) and control over those routes determines the economy and hence capital generation. I, for one, will not judge the vaishya of a nation based on stock market.

I will advocate judging it on ability to dominate and control the shipping lanes, ability to bring one's own oil and energy from producer to consumer, ability to fix the value of commodity (here energy/oil) based on needs of producer and consumers and not some third-party tool (USD in this case). In simpler words, to give one example, if Indian Shipping companies can build large oil carriers and container carriers, which in turn necessitates that our Iron and Steel industry to churn out high quality steel so that hulls of large seagoing vessels can be built in Indian shipbuilding dockyards, and ports deep enough and gantries efficient enough to park, load and unload VLCCs (minimum 24m draft) and oil super tankers - when this entire value chain is indegenized, then we will be able to buy oil from KSA, OR iran or Timbuktoo in INR or in grain or whatever and not depend on dollar fluctuations. That is when India's "Vaishya" is almost ready for the plunge. This is the Rajput era OR Gupta era vaishya, I am talking about which we aim to reach.

The examples which you gave are first steps towards this and by gods we will reach there starting with the baby steps you have described. My point is, a truly indic right wing ideology can prosper only in scenario of such local supremacy without it being resorted to oppressive caste-based corrupt system (which we experienced in previous centuries). We got relegated ever since central asians controlled India.

Those who facilitated the flow of bullion in and out of india were Hindu traders. Who controls the international money flow today? It is few English+Dutch+American investors at the top.

It is an open market system - and Indians (especially Gujjus who control most of Dalal Street) can over a period of time come to dominate the system as they have come to dominate the diamond business. For that to happen - there also needs to be somebody like Modi who understands the importance of Indian goods and services controlling as much of global trade as possible.

Is it really open market, Arjun ji? On scales which we are playing on, yes, it seems open. And more power to those gujjus and other indics. Over the period of time gujjus can dominate money flow, but that is the key-word - Over the period of time. Some body like Modi will not suffice. An electorally well entrenched party like Modi (or someone even better) should exist. And it is at least 2 decades from now before modi like party (or even better) can find and establish a stable voter base throughout India. It has begun, yes. May Mahakaala give more power to that. But wheel is only creaking after being static for hundreds of years.

Point being, there cannot be a Indic right wing party, because there isn't any Indic capital. it is slowly building up (first in form of human resources who will start generating value and capital from land in next 25-30 years as started in GJ). Until we have substantial Indic capital, Vaishya tradition of India cannot be revived.

A lot of Indic capital is available...if somebody can package and present policies in the right way. India is actually far more rightist today than most European countries. There is no need for free-market advocacy in India - when in India a lot more sectors are today in the free market which are not even so in most other countries (education, healthcare, infrastructure....)

Indic capital is there. But most of it is inaccessible due to systemic problems. Its like Solar energy in India. GJ has only scratched the surface. possibilities are limitless. Especially in Ganga valley. Magadha is yet to rise from its slumber.

India is becoming more rightist, that I agree but it is not equitable (consider cases of MH which is decelerating yet on the top of economic indices - GJ will overtake it in nominal GDP in few years). The policies and policy makers in MH are not equitable. To use marxist term, haves and have-nots are drifting apart and govt policies are encouraging it. And populist measures have made people hostile towards most of ideas which will take away these freebies. a genuinely right wing party necessitates that. Something like Milton Friedmanite party but not an EIC. The rightist that you talk about in many parts of India are slowly becoming like EIC.

Simple question - which govt now balls to cancel NREGA and similar other populist measures which UPA introduced, cancel the loan waiver to farmers and recover all money without screwing up the national mood. NREGA was stupidity which killed the growth of nation achieved by NDA govt. This is merely one example.

This is what I meant that a truly right wing party is need of India, but not possible in near future. People are too helpless and pissed to allow such thoughts. It is possible in GJ and we should encourage that. Eventually people will grow tired of NM and BJP. Beyond a point, RSS cannot and should not allow compromising on its socialistic principles. The power in GJ should go a party which is more overtly Hindutvavadi and more overtly economically right wing than BJP. GJ is the only state in India which is ripe for this process. Else as newer generations of gujjus come to age, BJP will loose its edge and eventually power. This is why something like Swatantrata party (with modi like biz acumen and zeal) need to come up in GJ. BJP should become new left in GJ.

I agree with your interpretation of swadeshi. But there is stupendous amount of money that rural India is sitting upon which is not in circulation, this is much more than the strong pool of entrepreneurs which are coming up. As said earlier, we have only scratched the surface. For the rural folks to unleash their entrepreneurial skills (thus truly bringing MKG's graama-swarajya), we need systemic reforms in tax structure and economics of money flow. Consider a scenario - All Hindu arthashastras mandate that king should not tax people more than 15% (total taxes direct and indirect). That means 85% of all the produce remains with people. Will it be feasible to slash the taxes and yet fulfill all the basic governmental duties given the faulty tax structure where most of the people spend most of their energies on evading tax? No.. Thus, it forms a vicious loop.

[Pranav]

Point being, there cannot be a Indic right wing party, because there isn't any Indic capital. it is slowly building up (first in form of human resources who will start generating value and capital from land in next 25-30 years as started in GJ). Until we have substantial Indic capital, Vaishya tradition of India cannot be revived.

A lot of Indic capital is available...if somebody can package and present policies in the right way.

I agree, the problem is that the available capital is not being deployed in Indic interests.

It does not take a huge amount of capital to sponsor scholars, open newspapers, TV channels etc. Well within the capacity of names like Birla, Tata, Mittal, Ambani, Adani etc

The Niti Central website is a welcome change - a professionally run right wing news and views source.

Many Indian capitalists end up sponsoring those who want to undermine Indic interests.

[Sanku]

It does not take a huge amount of capital to sponsor scholars, open newspapers, TV channels etc. Well within the capacity of names like Birla, Tata, Mittal, Ambani, Adani etc

No it is not in their power, for example Adani's money could not ensure that the INC parasites at Wharton did not triumph. We have to see if they have the power to withdraw their sponsorship.

Even NaMo has not been able to do ANYTHING for Swami Assemanand. People need a solid reality check as to where we are.

[Muppalla]

Simple question - which govt now balls to cancel NREGA and similar other populist measures which UPA introduced, cancel the loan waiver to farmers and recover all money without screwing up the national mood. NREGA was stupidity which killed the growth of nation achieved by NDA govt. This is merely one example

I will take a bet. Any next NDA government with 170 seat of BJP will cancel NRGEA and also streamline the Tax structure. Farm loan waiver is not bad economics though.

[Atri]

One example - We cannot have a hindu university in India, this is an example. UGC simply won't recognize it. Even in GJ. The system did not allow Namo to open a Hindu University. As I am told by a friend, Namo had to rebrand it as somnath sanskrit university.

serves the purpose to an extent but kills the point one is trying to make.

RSS cannot be both Indic socialist and Indic capitalist (which it is being forced to be). The current schizophrenic behaviour of BJP has its roots in this unfortunate dichotomy because there is no one who can free RSS to do the job she intends to do in social sector, by handling the portfolio of ideological Indic capitalism. To use massa terms, Sangh parivar is forced to be seen as both Democrats and republicans. Core-INC (DIEnasty) and others are simply foreign interests - The remnants of Mughals and British. But average Raamukaka of India is slowly beginning to understand this but has not fully understood this. Until this reality dawns upon our Average Ramukaka, BJP will appear schizophrenic. After it dawns, if Raamukaka does not find a swadeshi "right alternative" to sangh parivar and continues seeing parivar playing dholki from both ends, he will think that sangh parivar is stupid.

The fact that adanis, ambanis do not sponsor open newspapers, tv channels ityadi mean that it is not in their interest to do so.

we need a systemic change. for that Namo needs a solid majority. for that namo needs a huge wave in BJP's favor (similar to one in 1984 in Rajiv's favor).

I will mail you finest Namkeen and Mithais from my region, Muppalla ji, if you win.. I wish you win..

[Pranav]

No it is not in their power, for example Adani's money could not ensure that the INC parasites at Wharton did not triumph. We have to see if they have the power to withdraw their sponsorship.

Even NaMo has not been able to do ANYTHING for Swami Assemanand. People need a solid reality check as to where we are.

But it is not purely a matter of money. There are various factors at play, ideological conditioning of generations of scholars, power to make appointments, power to give grants, media ownership etc.

New rich like Adanis don't have a chance against the machinery that has been built up over centuries. But certainly they could use their resources productively if they had the vision to do so.

[Arjun]

Atriji, I don't think we may be disagreeing all that much. Clearly it would be the best possible situation if there can be a both a Hindutva right and a Hindutva left to attract sections of society with differing economic views.

The only difference is that I see the NDA government of 2014 (if formed) as being essentially rightist in economic policy and definitely much more so than the preceding UPA. The key personalities likely to set the policies (Modi, Jaitley, Yashwant) are all right-wing oriented. The last NDA government was far more associated with right-wing measures (privatization, low fiscal deficit) than the succeeding 10 years of the UPA. And the results the NDA achieved in terms of economic growth were correspondingly better than the UPA.

Modi and Jaitley are folks who understand the importance of economic growth for the country and Modi's reputation is largely based on his achievement on this count. Most urban support for Modi is based on the fact that he can ensure economic growth, which is what India needs for the next several years.

[Arjun]

I think its this leftist streak in the RSS that Atri ji clearly mentions that has produiced nincompoops like Govindacharya and others...And what the eff is RSS doing with Togadia and Bajrang Dal types ? Can someone explain how they fit in the grand scheme of 'integral humanism'?

Probably makes sense, like Atriji mentions, for Modi and Jaitley to break away from the RSS at some stage in the next 10 years and head their own right-wing party.

[Atri]

I think its this leftist streak in the RSS that Atri ji clearly mentions that has produiced nincompoops like Govindacharya and others...And what the eff is RSS doing with Togadia and Bajrang Dal types ? Can someone explain how they fit in the grand scheme of 'integral humanism'?

Probably makes sense, like Atriji mentions, for Modi and Jaitley to break away from the RSS at some stage in the next 10 years and head their own right-wing party.

That would be suicidal.. I do not wish OR expect that. I meant no such thing. I would be embarrassed if NM acted this rashly which I hardly think he will. Economic growth without unless all-rounded can make one a fat pig ready for slaughter. How much of our growth in past 10 years is "growth" and how much is "tumor", we need to ascertain that. We may not want to call tumor as growth, although it looks the same initially.

Why is being integral humanist OR a socialist a bad thing? Remember, it has always been the left (radicles as the center-right dwelling status quoists might say) who produce men of action. Even Namo, Shivraj Chauhan, Parrikar, Raman Singh and many others came up through this family. Same as Govindacharya, Kalyan Singh, Uma Bharti, ABV and LKA in their heyday.. It were the Indic leftist radicles of RSS and VHP who stirred the nation during Ramjanmabhumi movement. It is the idealists of VHP who are converting muslims and christians to Hindu faiths. It is the idealist socialists of Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram who have single-handedly kept the naxalite problem in central India under control. Without them, we would be no one. It were the same radicles who protected Hindus during every single riot.

Govindacharya, Togadiya et al have spent their lives for a cause. So have countless dharmagurus and their millions of disciples. It is the socialist and nationalistic leftist streak in Sangh Parivar which has produced millions of dedicated selfless workers who live and die for a cause. Hence I would desist from calling names to anyone who have lived their lives for a cause. It takes great deal of commitment.

They have held on to Dharma in most dire times and places. Why do you think the hindus in villages of Assam, Bengal and North Kerala still hold on their ancestral land, hain ji? It is same bajrang dal type people who are the sword arm of dharma when government is non-functional.

So, my brother, please do not insult them.. If you can, create new institutions and build new cadre in your image which is as nationalistic and dharmik as those belonging to Sangh Parivar, yet with diametrically opposite rightist socio-politico-economic world view about nation. Nation would be indebted to you. If you want NM and jaitley to do that, bid them goodbye politically. Then you would never see NM as PM. He will die watering the organization. And I do not think Jaitley has it in him. Not without RSS behind. You would need someone as committed and almost divine as Guru Golwalkar to see the fruits 2-3 decades from now.

[RoyG]

I think its this leftist streak in the RSS that Atri ji clearly mentions that has produiced nincompoops like Govindacharya and others...And what the eff is RSS doing with Togadia and Bajrang Dal types ? Can someone explain how they fit in the grand scheme of 'integral humanism'?

Probably makes sense, like Atriji mentions, for Modi and Jaitley to break away from the RSS at some stage in the next 10 years and head their own right-wing party.

I think the break up phase has passed. I had put forth the option earlier but it looks like Modi camp has taken the lead (its essentially the entire party barring delhi leaders.) Instead I think delhi leaders are slowly being pushed out. If they lose the confidence of the cadres they wont last long. Jaitley may very well be the PM with backing from Modi if BJP doesn't garner sufficient percentage of seats. Right wing left wing didn't mean much in the subcontinental past. It was the path to enlightenment which stems from individual sovereignty which forms the basis of jati, entrepreneurship, industry, etc which is the basis of our economics and governance structure. Not come "rights" theory which comes from christian anthropology.

[Sanku]

Modi camp

There are and were no camps in BJP, there is some individual competition, which is good, but no camps.

All this camps stuff, is from congressies pretending to be BJP wllas.

[Atri]

RoyG ji, precisely. sadhu !!!

After all, a rural entrepreneur building capital in his village and contributing to the Gandhian ideal of Graama-Swarajya for his personal profit is both leftist and rightist.

In olden days, he would have simply been a sajjana dhaarmik Vaishya.. Life was easy then..

[Sanku]

Atri-ji --> the Vaishya's of India made a fatal error, they allowed themselves to believe that they can continue the Vaishya dharma even if Kshatriyata goes to seed. At least many did (And not only among Buddhists in Sindh) -- even in Hindu India, many vaishya forgot that the prosperity of the Indic vaishya is only when the Kshatiya gets their "tribute" and support. Not all were Bhama Shah's.

The Vaishya's still have not gotten this message in. This needs to be hammered home to them.

[Atri]

Yes... hence all round growth from all sides is better than tumor that is 10% GDP growth rate but no artillery guns and tanks and fighter jets and rifles and winter shoes for army.

[RoyG]

Atri-ji --> the Vaishya's of India made a fatal error, they allowed themselves to believe that they can continue the Vaishya dharma even if Kshatriyata goes to seed. At least many did (And not only among Buddhists in Sindh) -- even in Hindu India, many vaishya forgot that the prosperity of the Indic vaishya is only when the Kshatiya gets their "tribute" and support. Not all were Bhama Shah's.

The Vaishya's still have not gotten this message in. This needs to be hammered home to them.

The problem isn't with one or the other. It's all the varnas. Things are changing very fast in my vaishya community. Family has sent back millions for universities and schools. However, I do admit that there is some confusion as to what India is. They understand the hard power concepts like industry and education. They also understand the duties that come with being vaishya but some philosophical clarity maybe needed. Modi is slowly providing this. You wont believe how many big business players in the NE are rooting for him. It's phenomenal. Even the apolitical types talk about him and swear he's the most refreshing thing to happen in indian politics.

[abhishek_sharma]

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[Arjun]

Why is being integral humanist OR a socialist a bad thing? Remember, it has always been the left (radicles as the center-right dwelling status quoists might say) who produce men of action.

Atriji, you touched a raw nerve with me I don't know about 'integral humanism', but Socialist and 'left wing' are swear words in my book. If you don't mind my replies getting increasingly hostile - you can certainly continue using them.

Since you started this whole chain of BJP being a socialist, left wing party at heart - you might want to define what exactly you mean by those terms.

The RSS should stick to the domain it knows about (primarily to do with social issues and religion) and leave politics and economics to its political arm - the BJP. If the BJP wants to make it in 2014, it will be primarily due to Modi - and he's no left-wing figure. These kind of characterizations can muddy the waters before an important election.

[RamaY]

^ what made you to think NM is not RSS person?

[Arjun]

^ what made you to think NM is not RSS person?

Of course I know he's a dyed in the wool RSS person, who now keeps the RSS at arms length in his own state and has not allowed them to interfere with his own (non-socialist) economic agenda. That's exactly what I would hope for him at the center as well - and what I would hope the RSS would be accepting of as well. The last part is what I need confirmation of from RSS-minded folks.

[prahaar]

Using western terms like left/right/socialist confuse more than inform (IMHO). A person like Nanaji may be called leftist, but he encouraged entrepreneurs. Also about the need for reservations (not exactly the same as it is being implemented currently) for the underprivileged, one needs to hear the views of Mohanji Bhagwat, they will not match with most of the urban educated elites. One needs to see NM policies to help people who carry excreta on their heads. All these people are strongly for betterment of the have-nots.

It is the self-serving samajvadis (dole-handing INC, parasitic CPM, Mullah worshipping SP, etc) that socialism, government aided social programs have become a taboo. Until a year back I had come to hate all sociology/anthropology students/faculty thinking of them as people who destroy societal fabric to make their thesis and publications.

So Arjunji, reserve your hate/anger towards actions that are harmful rather than categories like left/socialist/etc.

-------------------------
Added later:
NM would not have won in Gujarat without RSS. Do not fall for petty propaganda that RSS+VHP want NM to lose. Yes, a section of those did work against NM, but I hope you know the structure of RSS/VHP members. It is not an MNC style top-down hierarchical structure. NM words would not ring a bell in Gujarati ears without the strong dharmik foundation laid by decades of RSS work. NM or Togadia or Govindacharya are passing winds in the timeline of history.

[Lilo]

Until a year back I had come to hate all sociology/anthropology students/faculty thinking of them as people who destroy societal fabric to make their thesis and publications.
.......

Saar, there is lot of accumulated error in these "social studies" diciplines which was deliberately introduced and evolved with the needs of colonials and marxists in mind.
AIT is an example par excellence to demonstarate this.

So i tend to be immediately suspicious of "academics" hailing with university training from these streams. The true social scientists in current India are its powerfull grassroot leaders and their advisors who do social engineering for a living and are tested on their work every 5 years.

You will find very few "academics" of the western variety in their ranks.

[Arjun]

Using western terms like left/right/socialist confuse more than inform (IMHO).

If they confuse more than inform, then why use 'socialist' in the first place - which is the term I was reacting to ?

I don't have a problem with the RSS - but unlike many here I have equally strong views on the economy. As far as the RSS performance on the inter-religious side goes - I would definitely not question the RSS' intent and dedication (unlike the Congress, where even the intentions can be questioned).

But, I see some resistance from RSS-fans on any questioning as to how competent the RSS has been. Folks immediately start bristling on how the RSS has dedicated their whole lives etc. As anybody who has ever worked in any corporate environment knows - the fact that you worked x number of years 24-hours a day on something is not what folks judge you on at the end of the day. What folks look for is results. 'Sword arm' is all right ( when not beating up Valentine day couples) - but what about a more effective 'Pen arm' that can at least communicate effectively in the media? When will intellectuals of the calibre of Rajiv Malhotra start populating the RSS?

[Atri]

Arjun ji,

Suggest me better term and I will use it to describe the worldview of RSS. I only objected to words like nincompoops (along with windbag etc) to describe some senior leaders. Things are connected from inside. Most of this NM Vs RSS is a made believe scenario. NM visited Bhagwat before GJ elections.

RSS exerts right on its volunteers and expects certain behavior from them. But apart from this, RSS does not micromanage. Indiscriminate disinvestment and privatization by ABV and Pramod Mahajan did piss of RSS then and resulted in Pramod losing portfolio. Different people have different takes on episode. But it was different RSS, different NDA. So it does have pretty strong opinions on economy. But it is far and wide. Overall they have remained aloof from administration.

Now this effect cannot be wished away no matter how angry it makes you. And solution is not jaitley and namo splitting from sangh. Then they would be finished. Basic premis of RSS is that it does not believe in individual heroes, but collective and nameless heroism.

As far as penarm is concerned, there is no dearth of intellectuals in RSS. Although not officially belonging to parivar, RM belongs to same domain. But function is more about bringing people together on grounds and organize them. They have richly borrowed from thinkers outside formal organization, but they usually prefer doers over thinkers.

[member_23658]

... But, I see some resistance from RSS-fans on any questioning as to how competent the RSS has been. Folks immediately start bristling on how the RSS has dedicated their whole lives etc. As anybody who has ever worked in any corporate environment knows - the fact that you worked x number of years 24-hours a day on something is not what folks judge you on at the end of the day...

The RSS supports a huge number of social initatives : education, tribal welfare, anti conversion drives, the pervasive evening shakhas (although its really the time to do away with the khakhi shorts ). They however are not that great at marketing, going by the not so relevant ideals of not expecting anything but doing your part etc. But the results are there for those who look.

What folks look for is results. 'Sword arm' is all right ( when not beating up Valentine day couples) - but what about a more effective 'Pen arm' that can at least communicate effectively in the media? When will intellectuals of the calibre of Rajiv Malhotra start populating the RSS?

I think you are confusing RSS with Ram Sene / Shiv Sena. If you think that RSS = Shiv Sena = Abhinav Bharat because they are all right wing, its a very basic mistake. By the way, RSS does have very effective fourth estate weapons in Panchajanya and Organiser.

[prahaar]

Arjunji, your post sound eerily similar to "soldiers are paid to die". Comparing the work of vanvasi kalyan in Bastar or Nagaland (where the govt is also hell bent on harming you) with 10 years work-ex in Apple or Reliance is useless. Pen arm is useless when there are 10 lathaits on your doorstep to take away your women. RSS-fans are not oblivious to RSS-failures/mistakes. But one should remember, NM is standing on a pyramid that has been made with help of many people's dedicated lives, and NM knows it/acknowledges it.

It is better to have as many different voices that are nationalistic and PI (pro-India). RM should continue his stellar work and so should RSS, they do not need each others certificate. But, if PI intent is clear, there should definitely be a feeling of respect even if there are disagreements. So I do not see a need for any certificate for RSS from anyone, except the masses they address - otherwise RSS will not survive and we will not discuss about RSS anymore.

BTW, your pain points against socialism are not yet clear to me.

[Arjun]

I think you are confusing RSS with Ram Sene / Shiv Sena. If you think that RSS = Shiv Sena = Abhinav Bharat because they are all right wing, its a very basic mistake.

No, my reference was to Bajrang Dal and its activities on Valentine's Day. BD is a part of the Sangh Parivar.

Valentine's Day is a stupid import no doubt - but some problems need to be addressed with brains not brawn. You need to provide Indian alternatives (like RajeshA was attempting on another thread)... you need an intellectual response that excites ordinary folks.