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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2013 11:35 
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shiv wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrDJVu1wKd4


If you see the above footage in 4x or 8x mode, you will notice that the syncronisation is so perfect that it seems that the officers are just flying in air without moving there feet.....you can't see the foot moving at all...i and my wife were pretty amazed seeing that...


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2013 14:04 
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ramana wrote:
...

Following 2010 paper by Group Captain Bhanoji Rao answers the intricacies.. in AriPower Journal:

Air launched weapons


Very informative read! It should be a recommended reading for understanding whàt ails the indigenous product development and production.

When it comes to indigenzing low-tech weapons, such as dumb bombs, unguided rockets, fuzes, etc., it is best achieved through reverse-engineering. But since DRDO doesn't want to do any reverse-engineering on low-tech work and OFB is busy focusing on production only, it may be necessary to have a dedicated agency focused on just reverse-engineering low-tech weapons and getting it to production as extensive testing is required to get it into service. This way India can more quickly move towards the 70% indigenization goal; it starts with volume products which often are low-tech uninspiring stuff.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2013 04:47 
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High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows.

Should India have simply gone in for new fighters rather than upgrading its 51 Mirage-2000s at an exorbitant cost? This question came to the fore once again on Monday with defence minister AK Antony telling Parliament that the upgrade cost for each jet was Rs 167 crore.

This when the last lot of the French-origin Mirage-2000s - their induction began in the mid-1980s - contracted by India in 2000 cost just Rs 133 crore apiece. However, Antony, in a written reply to Lok Sabha, said, "Applying an escalation of 3.5% per annum as per the pricing policy review committee, to the contracted cost of the year 2000, it works out to be Rs 195 crore at 2011 levels. Thus, the upgrade has been undertaken at 85% of the aircraft's escalated cost."

However, the Rs 167-crore figure does not give the full picture. The overall upgrade programme of the Mirage-2000s is pegged at Rs 17,547 crore, with the first two fighters being upgraded in France and the rest (49) by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) under transfer of technology (ToT). If this figure is taken into account, then each Mirage upgrade will cost Rs 344 crore.

India has inked two separate contracts in the upgrade programme, which kicked off last year with the help of French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator).

In July 2011, the upgrade programme was finalized at Rs 10,947 crore, which included both the French and HAL work-shares. Then, early last year, the second contract worth around Rs 6,600 crore for 490 advanced fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the fighters was finalized with French armament major MBDA. The overall upgrade package may even cross the Rs 20,000 crore-mark over the decade it will take to complete it, as earlier reported by TOI.

However, both MoD and IAF - down to just 34 fighter squadrons when over 44 are required to deter both Pakistan and China - maintain the upgrade will ensure the multi-role Mirages become "virtually new fighters" that will "remain current and potent" for over two decades more.

"Mirages have performed superbly since induction. IAF is going in for new acquisitions, which take a long time in our circumstances, as well as upgrades to retain its combat readiness," said an official.

Holding major upgrade decisions are "suitably negotiated" in a competitive environment, Antony admitted, "However, this (Mirage) upgrade programme also includes fitment of advanced multi-mode target radar, reconfigured glass cockpit and advance avionics, state-of-the-art electronic warfare system and capability to launch advanced missiles."

Even as it progressively inducts 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted for Rs 55,717 crore, IAF is also undertaking upgrade of its 63 MiG-29s at a cost of $964 million deal inked with Russia in March, 2008.

The force is also heavily banking upon the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters from Dassault, the final commercial negotiations for which are now in progress.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2013 06:18 
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Vipul wrote:
High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows.

Should India have simply gone in for new fighters rather than upgrading its 51 Mirage-2000s at an exorbitant cost? This question came to the fore once again on Monday with defence minister AK Antony telling Parliament that the upgrade cost for each jet was Rs 167 crore.


If anyone understands the business climate in France one also understands how expensive things manufactured in France are. Gasoline is frightfully expensive, labour costs are high, taxes to support medical care and retirement would scare Dracula himself, the list goes on. Labor laws are draconian, you cannot lay somebody off without HUGE severances. Bottom line everything from France is expensive and not just a little, but frightfully so. Also the French know that India has nobody else that can provide an entire aircraft, the technology and will continue to support India in good times and in time of war. This is the price that is being paid.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2013 20:09 
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Quote:
Ideally, India would have the capacity to design and make its own iPhone equivalents but it does not. It would be acceptable if we could make even iPhone, Motorola, HTC or Samsung equivalents one generation removed but all we can manage today are the Nokias. Per me, the reason for this absolute disgrace is not the capabilities of India as a country but the sub-optimal and irrational use of our resources by a self-serving class of corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. Nowhere else on the planet do we see such a trail of failure and non-performance rewarded by a continued deluge of funding without accountability and coherrent reasoning.


As per me, it is almost all of us, bureaucrats included, trying to know what is the best for other people, rather than being concerned with doing the best for ourselves....and tying up the hands of other people in order to limit their competitiveness. But thats just me.

Quote:
There is probably no legitimate military in the world that faces as direct and imminent a threat to survival as the IAF/IA/IN. Unlike India, the US, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Russia, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina and Sweden do not face any threats and are not in danger of being attacked in the foreseeable future. So it is definitely not fascination that motivates the IAF/IA/INs want for systems that will give them a realistic chance to not just defend India against attack but ensure that the aggressors don't try again by inflicting enough pain and damage to begin with.


Correct. China is no walk in the park. Neither is the pipsqueak to the west.


Quote:
Yes there are bad apples, but implying and attributing questionable motives to the forces' acquisition of cutting edge weapons is not in our interests and must stop.


Absolutely right. And thus I hope that folks on here, even as they root for HAL and DRDO's development work, don't rubbish the IAFs thinking and decision making.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2013 20:51 
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While I understand that Mirage 2000's are excellent aircraft, but paying 350 crores a piece for refurbishing them WITHOUT an AESA radar sounds downright stupid.

Let us consider the options we have today-

1. New SU-35 BM with AESA radars and numerous improvements over SU-30 MKI (Radar cross section, avionics & engines with higher MTBF to name a few) cost approximately $60 MM each (going by the price being paid by Russian AirForce). This will be delivered in 3 years with a great product support infrastructure existing in the country and a 30 year airframe life. 300 crores.

2. Nopes, you want Western stuff. Ok. Rafales fully imported will cost somewhere around $75 MM each (since we are already buying 126, we can put in this money for additional numbers of Rafales instead of M2K's). Add $3.5 Billion to the $12 Billion MMRCA and buy 40 additional Rafales. New airframe, more capabilities and marginal higher cost but money well spent. 350 crores.

Both these aircraft can replace the M2K in lesser numbers to be as effective.

3. Any other contemporary last gen aircraft (F-16's, Gripen) will cost less than 350 crores new.

4. Last but not the least, used M2K's are available in the market for lot lesser. Qatar has 12+2 (Trainers) for sale which India put up a lousy bid for few years back. Qatar also has a load of the MICA missiles for sale with the M2K's. UAE is looking to sell its fleet of 68 (approx) M2K's and Greece is another potential seller.

There will be little life left in a 30 year old airframe to use this 350 crores investment.

This refurbishment sounds like someone refurbishing a CRT color TV to a LCD color TV instead of buying a new LCD TV because the CRT TV served them well for 15 years.

In the end, wait for it, I am sure it will turn up that someone bribed someone to get this deal passed. This type of deal does not pass common sense. Wonder who sold the nation this time around. Mera Bharat mahaan.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2013 21:30 
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Cross posting from the Newbie thread.

A lot of basic Aerospace Engineering courses from profs at IITs and IISc are available online here:
NPTEL

Personally, I am amazed at the breadth and depth of the topics covered in these courses and we discuss some of these topics on a daily basis here on BRF.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2013 21:34 
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shiv wrote:


This is indeed a good effort by NDTV from the photography and camera technique angles.

However, I have a major caveat about the language used by the presenters on the majority of Hindi TV channels. Why do these turkeys use a preponderant percentage of Urdu words in their vocabulary ? In most cases, they sound as if they are blabbering in Urdu / Persian / Arabic. Their exclusion of perfectly acceptable Hindi (with Sanskrit roots) words is jarring and perverse.

Let me furnish just a few examples : "asmaan" for akash, "takat" for shakti etc etc. The list is endless.

In most cases our Hindi channels sound exactly like their Pakistani counterparts.

Is this a deliberate ploy to Arabise / Persianise our national language ?

We need to introspect deeply. The Forces will soon be affected by this virus, if the media continues in this vein. Our warriors may get the impression that it is more chic to have a Middle-Eastern vocabulary than our own 5000 year old words.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 05:28 
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Jaybhatt wrote:
shiv wrote:


This is indeed a good effort by NDTV from the photography and camera technique angles.

The photography was all Doordarshan. Only DD cameras were in place. NDTV have used DD footage probably with permission/after paying royalty.

When I think about why on earth the IAF should conduct such a show - there is a signal going out to shitistan as well as to Indians. That is why the government mouthpiece DD is involved. From that angle using a lot of Urdu is a great idea


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 09:42 
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This issue has raised its head yet again.When theb upgrade cosst were first revealed-before the MMRCA deal was announced,many on BR opined that the ultra-high cost of the deal was a method by which the Rafale costs in the tender could be kept down!

Let's take a dekko at two upgrades,the first for the M-2000s at a cost of almost $70M per unit,a toal cost of approx. $3.5 billion for 50+ aircraft,whereas the total cost of 63 MIG-29 upgrades is just under $1 billion ($964million).This 3.5 times as much and common sense,commerce sense,pure logic ,must ask the hard question,why? We've even had a debate earlier where the IAF's own evaluation of the two saw the MIG-29 come out on top every time in A-2-A combat (AM Masand in VAYU) .

In retrospect,it would've been far better to have a limited series upgrade of the M-2000 ,in principle just as was done with the Sea Harriers,saving about $3 Billion in the bargain and use the money saved for acquiring more new aircraft,either MIG-35s (60 at an approx. price of $45-50M per unit),the extra 40+ SU-30MKIs ordered at about $70M per unit,or save this money for the Rafale deal.If the LCA is also needing some hard cash to accelerate its dev. and production too,then the money saved would be better spent.

Quote:
High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows
Rajat Pandit, TNN Mar 5, 2013,

(The overall upgrade programme…)

NEW DELHI: Should India have simply gone in for new fighters rather than upgrading its 51 Mirage-2000s at an exorbitant cost? This question came to the fore once again on Monday with defence minister AK Antony telling Parliament that the upgrade cost for each jet was Rs 167 crore.

This when the last lot of the French-origin Mirage-2000s - their induction began in the mid-1980s - contracted by India in 2000 cost just Rs 133 crore apiece. However, Antony, in a written reply to Lok Sabha, said, "Applying an escalation of 3.5% per annum as per the pricing policy review committee, to the contracted cost of the year 2000, it works out to be Rs 195 crore at 2011 levels. Thus, the upgrade has been undertaken at 85% of the aircraft's escalated cost."

However, the Rs 167-crore figure does not give the full picture. The overall upgrade programme of the Mirage-2000s is pegged at Rs 17,547 crore, with the first two fighters being upgraded in France and the rest (49) by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) under transfer of technology (ToT). If this figure is taken into account, then each Mirage upgrade will cost Rs 344 crore.

India has inked two separate contracts in the upgrade programme, which kicked off last year with the help of French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator).

In July 2011, the upgrade programme was finalized at Rs 10,947 crore, which included both the French and HAL work-shares. Then, early last year, the second contract worth around Rs 6,600 crore for 490 advanced fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the fighters was finalized with French armament major MBDA. The overall upgrade package may even cross the Rs 20,000 crore-mark over the decade it will take to complete it, as earlier reported by TOI.

However, both MoD and IAF - down to just 34 fighter squadrons when over 44 are required to deter both Pakistan and China - maintain the upgrade will ensure the multi-role Mirages become "virtually new fighters" that will "remain current and potent" for over two decades more.

"Mirages have performed superbly since induction. IAF is going in for new acquisitions, which take a long time in our circumstances, as well as upgrades to retain its combat readiness," said an official.

Holding major upgrade decisions are "suitably negotiated" in a competitive environment, Antony admitted, "However, this (Mirage) upgrade programme also includes fitment of advanced multi-mode target radar, reconfigured glass cockpit and advance avionics, state-of-the-art electronic warfare system and capability to launch advanced missiles."

Even as it progressively inducts 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted for Rs 55,717 crore, IAF is also undertaking upgrade of its 63 MiG-29s at a cost of $964 million deal inked with Russia in March, 2008.

The force is also heavily banking upon the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters from Dassault, the final commercial negotiations for which are now in progress.
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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 12:29 
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Jaybhatt wrote:
The Forces will soon be affected by this virus, if the media continues in this vein. Our warriors may get the impression that it is more chic to have a Middle-Eastern vocabulary than our own 5000 year old words.
Our forces are already afflicted by this virus :D Earlier in our military academies, foreign languages taught to warriors included French & Russian. But these days, I'm told, only Arabic & Chinese are taught :mrgreen:

It is indeed very chic to have a Middle-Eastern &/or Chinese vocabulary. Because it will protect & progress our own old words for the next 5000 years.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 14:31 
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Jaybhatt wrote:

This is indeed a good effort by NDTV from the photography and camera technique angles.

However, I have a major caveat about the language used by the presenters on the majority of Hindi TV channels. Why do these turkeys use a preponderant percentage of Urdu words in their vocabulary ? In most cases, they sound as if they are blabbering in Urdu / Persian / Arabic. Their exclusion of perfectly acceptable Hindi (with Sanskrit roots) words is jarring and perverse.

Let me furnish just a few examples : "asmaan" for akash, "takat" for shakti etc etc. The list is endless.

In most cases our Hindi channels sound exactly like their Pakistani counterparts.

Is this a deliberate ploy to Arabise / Persianise our national language ?

We need to introspect deeply. The Forces will soon be affected by this virus, if the media continues in this vein. Our warriors may get the impression that it is more chic to have a Middle-Eastern vocabulary than our own 5000 year old words.


Someone should create a webpage with a title asking a question "Is NDTV really a hindi channel?" with details in a table showing the two words side by side and evidence of clips of footage with these words.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 14:55 
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we should also test for racial purity and political alignment and ensure only correct thoughts are allowed


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 16:57 
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Lalmohan wrote:
we should also test for racial purity and political alignment and ensure only correct thoughts are allowed


???? Sorry that goes against the very thought of India, but a Media channel must be held accountable for a Modicom of truth.

Coverage/Non coverage of news. deliberate lies and treatment of same news in Different context, in one case non conviction is a let off and in anther it is a Acquittal cannot be acceptable.

At the very least even if you are biased you should be open like Kalagar TV, Jaya TV or Sun TV carrying the Party symbol.

Not the charade like NDTV, CNN-IBN


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 19:06 
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aditya, you must declare youself an enemy of the people and denounce your feudal past as a betrayer of the one true people
you must submit yourself for interrogation on the suspicion of commiting thought crimes


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013 21:21 
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I would split hairs a bit, and I write this at the risk of staying on the OT track that this thread has taken. Persian itself is a distant descendant of Sanskrit, and I would like to see how many so called Persian origin words actually go back to a Sanskrit root. Aasmaan, dushman, hafta (as opposed to saptaah) nazdeek, tezi, insaniyat, taakat, zabardasti, fikar etc can be looked at with a linguists lens and some may be found to be simply a corrupt version of what went OIT. Some have undoubted Arabic roots I guess - like Muskurahat. Wrong thread.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2013 17:07 
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AWST in its Feb 4th and 11th issues ,reports from India coinciding wiht Aero-India.If posted earlier,apologies.One ,"White Elephants".where AKA and co. are fed up with the delys in Indian programmes,esp. the LCA where ACM Browne categorically states that FOC of Tejas will only take lace until 2015.

The other article ,cover story,"Special Report India",covers the huge Indian market and global manufacturers all fighting for a piece of the huge pie.The emerging Indian pvt. sector aviation industry is also mentioned.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2013 18:54 
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Philip wrote:
AWST in its Feb 4th and 11th issues ,reports from India coinciding wiht Aero-India.If posted earlier,apologies.One ,"White Elephants".where AKA and co. are fed up with the delys in Indian programmes,esp. the LCA where ACM Browne categorically states that FOC of Tejas will only take lace until 2015.


That's good.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2013 19:55 
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Instead of improving funding for DRDO they are killing it


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2013 23:59 
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HAL puts intermediate Jet Trainer project in fast-track mode


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013 20:40 
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AK says IAF lost 29 fighters last 3 years, nearing 2 digit planes per year. Do we have statistics for other air forces?, especially most active like USAF, Russkies, chippanda etc?


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013 20:59 
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we have beaten this to death in the past


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013 21:02 
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SaiK wrote:
chippanda etc?

You must be joking.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013 21:11 
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how dare you insult chinese...dont you known their aircrafts dont crash


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013 22:45 
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video of launching and chase planes being taken apart by the munitions released
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RROr86sqiP8


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 02:14 
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That only shows even though Sudarshan launch was not perfect, it was not bad either. We can only improve from here.
Thanks,


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 05:00 
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Actually I have been thinking of the Sudarshan.

Wouldn't a good explanation be that the on-board computer is trying to correct the trajectory but the frequency of correction is not fast enough?


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 05:07 
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indranilroy wrote:
Actually I have been thinking of the Sudarshan.

Wouldn't a good explanation be that the on-board computer is trying to correct the trajectory but the frequency of correction is not fast enough?

Thought along the same lines and posted on 20 Feb:
Quote:
I wonder if the high-precision linear ball-lead-screw actuators (to move the control surface) can be moved fast enough to counter the roll. If not, some strakes should help. Newbie aero IQ says if it works for the IJT, it should work for the Sudarshan. :mrgreen:

It could be the processing capability of the computer or the rate of change supported by the precision actuator.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 05:23 
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I don't think they would put strakes on them as that would increase the drag. They already have 4 big fins.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 05:32 
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fanne wrote:
That only shows even though Sudarshan launch was not perfect, it was not bad either. We can only improve from here.
Thanks,

Hey there must have been dozens of Sudarshan launches. There is a set of photos in the latest Vayu which looks perfect. I think we are overdoing analysis of that one video. Even a perfect launch is of no use unless it hits the target and we have no videos of that. Yet.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 18:26 
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With regards to the upgrade of M2K, it is universally accepted that the cost of the upgrade, as given by the French is exorbitant.
There was also a parallel offer from Israel to upgrade the aircraft is almost half the price that the French are asking for.

I would say the upgrade should also be within the capabilities of ADA working with HAL and with assistance from Israel.
Short of an engine upgrade, the ADA with help from Israel should be able to upgrade the avionics, radar and weapons package for the M2K.

The radar can be the same 2032 based MMR that we have developed/developing for the LCA. Even the standalone 2032 radar has better performance as compared to the current RDM radar on the M2K. The MMR hybrid may not give the same performance as compared to the RBE-2 or the RDY that the French upgrade proposes, but should be a decent enough upgrade. Further development of the radar for the LCA-MKII can be used for some of the planes if available on time.

The weapons would be upgraded from Super 530D and Magic Matra-II to Derby and Python V. Both represent a very decent upgrade from current capability. Also the Derby offers comparable performance to the MICA, at much cheaper prices. The Python V is much better to anything the French can offer for short range AAM. Later the Astra can also be used with M2K, when ready. The use of Derby/Astra and Python V would also help in terms of inventory management. Air to ground weapons represent a smaller challenge, as the M2K can already use the Paveway-II and Sudarshan type of LGBs.

The glass cockpit, better avionics suite, HUD, HMS, IFF, inflight refueling probe etc. are all available from the LCA program and the also from Su30MKI program. ECCM and EW suite being developed for the LCA and that being used for the Su-30 can be used to arrive at the best options for the M2K upgrade.

In my opinion, we should seal up the contract for the Rafael and make sure all points are thoroughly covered, unlike the scorpene deal and then scrap the whole M2K upgrade deal. Ask ADA/HAL combine to work with the IAF for finalizing the upgrade package, based on current capabilities and then rope in the Israelis as consultants for the project.

Given the 10 year time frame that the French have asked for, I think the above should be imminently doable by ADA/HAL with help from Israel within the same time frame. The French upgrade would make sense only if the timeline for the upgrade to be finished was 2-3 years.
Will save the country a ton of money and will act as an excellent spin-off from the LCA program.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 22:44 
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Too early to investigate possibility of corruption in Rafale deal: A K Antony


Last edited by NRao on 14 Mar 2013 00:03, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 23:28 
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HTT-40 Aircraft in mid 2015


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013 23:42 
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Self deleted


Last edited by PratikDas on 14 Mar 2013 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2013 09:30 
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I wonder what is better ? Having 57 upgraded Mirages or 120 new LCA in the same cost and time line.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2013 10:30 
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^^^
why wonder? 120 LCA is definitely better!
I hope we have both by 2019.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2013 16:31 
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I mean that for the price of Mirage upgrade we can have 100+ LCA


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2013 17:13 
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Well a better way to compare Mirage upgrade is for the price of that, we could have had 51 non upgraded mirages and 51 SU30MKI. Then maybe go with in house or Isreal upgrade (that would have though voided the gurantee).
The only thing in favor of Mirages, irrespective of the spec (spec of 29 and 30mki looks very impressive, MKI is probably a better plane), it is the workhorse and the most reliable plane in IAF. Even in recent Iron Fist, MKI had issues but M2000 was spot on.
rgds,
fanne


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2013 20:21 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00
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Or 57 non-upgraded Mirage 2000 plus 100 LCAs?


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2013 03:42 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 31 Jul 2006 05:12
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vic wrote:
I wonder what is better ? Having 57 upgraded Mirages or 120 new LCA in the same cost and time line.


vic saar - 5% of 120 LCA = 6 LCAs. 5 % of mirage upgrade = 125-250 million USD.

babus/netas would figure that it is better to pump quarter billion into the economy. :((


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