AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

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RajeshA
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RajeshA »

Sanku wrote:Three times is enemy action

What are the three times
1) Q
2) Augusta Westland
3) Marines

What else is common other than Italy in the above? Thats right Congress led by Sonia Maino.

Shri Jaitely has already said what you want to be said, as much as can be said in Parliament right now.

Also other BJP members have already laid the charge of collusion on the floor of the house and elsewhere.

What is needed to be said is said -- not that it matters much anyway, we Dhimmi's are still marching to a 60 year old drum :roll:
Sanku ji,

I agree. They have two routes to nail Sonia Maino.

1) Colluded in Hostage Exchange: BJP can make the case that that the Italians were let go in exchange for Italians not cooperating in providing details for AugustaWestland deal, which would have brought corruption charges directly to the door of the Family; or

2) Duped: BJP can make the case that Italians duped the Indian Government, and deserves our full scorn and contempt.

The second narrative is indeed easier to put forth. First you kill, then you dupe! Italy Hai Hai! Italy Hai Hai! And then one can translate that anger against Italians closer to those in India. However this narrative involves accepting that GoI, the Supreme Court were Masooms and Sadhus and they acted according to the highest humanitarian standards, giving us the high moral ground, and then somebody pulled a sack over their heads!

However if the BJP makes a case that GoI was nikammi and they should not have trusted the Italians in the first place, then it takes away the public anger from Italians and tries to shift it to GoI, but that doesn't work out because this UPA-2 can withstand any level of public anger including at election time and the anti-Italian anger does not take off.

The other narrative involves making a case of collusion which may be harder to pull off as CBI is now trying to drag some small fish into the net and crucify them rather than see the Family having to face the brunt. However even if one cannot make the case that it was a Hostage Exchange - 2 Italian Marines for 2 Italian Leaders, one can still make the case that the Italian Family of Congress colluded with the Italians due to their trans-national Italian allegiances.

I just don't know whether one can carry both these narratives or sub-narratives together.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Sanku »

RajeshA wrote: The other narrative involves making a case of collusion which may be harder to pull off as CBI is now trying to drag some small fish into the net and crucify them rather than see the Family having to face the brunt. However even if one cannot make the case that it was a Hostage Exchange - 2 Italian Marines for 2 Italian Leaders, one can still make the case that the Italian Family of Congress colluded with the Italians due to their trans-national Italian allegiances.
.
RajeshA-ji; I believe this will be taken up, but after some time, once the cards are played out a bit more. Maybe through Modi in his yatra.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Chandragupta »

BJP should take the Antonio Maino & her Italian connection to the streets. I wonder why Jaitley is intentionally barking up the wrong tree. This is the time to tie the noose around the Italian godmother.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by rgsrini »

Betrayal by Italy, in the marine's case could ultimately be a good thing for India-Italy relationship, in a way.
  1. It exposes the respect and importance (or lack of it) that Italy has for India and its institutions.

    If Italy had assumed that it could get away with this betrayal because of one ex-Italian individual in INC, it now knows the limitations, and the power of public opinion in India.

    It may ultimately force Italy to have a meaningful government-to-government relationship with India, rather than a government-to-individual relationship that they seem to have now.
Italy has overplayed its hand. India may never get the 2 murderers. But Italy has lost the trust of India and Indians. It is simply a collosal cost to pay for Italy, for ensuring that 2 cold blooded murderers escape justice.
member_22872
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by member_22872 »

But Italy has lost the trust of India and Indians.
Srini ji, even though that is true, it means nothing for GoI hasn't lost trust in Italy, the gov doesn't work for Indians or Indian interests. GoI faithfully made sure Italian interests aren't hurt and it has released the prisoners. It found reasons to release them. They were sent to Italy to cast their votes? GoI thought that is good reason for the marines to go home and come back?

And now our PM ji wants to take stern action, like what?
RajeshA
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RajeshA »

One line one is hearing here and there is that the new Government in Italy is responsible for rescinding on the promise to send back the Italian Marines.

This is baloney! Those Italian Marines were taken to Italy to "vote" even though they could have done from India. So the devious plan was in place before they left. The change of government in Italy makes no difference.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by ManjaM »

vic wrote:Salman Khurshit has in effect said that it is upto the Supreme Court to do what it wants and has washed his hands off the affair.
Good. Just like UPA2 has thrown the unfortunate messenger boy ACM Tyagi, under the bus for the AW scandal, hopefully they will throw SC under the bus for this sordid Italian marines episode. Hopefully this make others wary of doing underhand dealing with congis in the future, time will tell.
Now it is left to the opposition to force the GoI hand on this matter. As far as Manmohan warning of consequences, the fact that he spoke itself is the consequence he was warning of. Everyone is understandably taken aback by this momentous incident.
ramana
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by ramana »

Duped by Italy is the best tack to get the UPA.


Collusion, mendacity all other charges will wash of in the psec-Ganga.
RajeshA
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RajeshA »

ramana wrote:Duped by Italy is the best tack to get the UPA.
So do we have any slogans for Italian chhal-kapat?

Perhaps it is time to lay siege to the Italian Embassy and Consulates! Cut off the paani, bijli, khaana-peena and sadak! Nobody should be allowed out or in until they return the Italian Marines. One can be sure then that Indian Media would cover it, including the slogans!
RajeshA
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RajeshA »

How about:

Italian karen chhal-kapatt
Insaniyat pe deemak, duur hatt


:wink:
RamaY
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RamaY »

We need something like

"Gali gali me Shor hain, Rajiv Gandhi Chor Hain"
vic
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by vic »

Anyone remember another CJI who quashed all criminal cases in Bhopal tragedy and was rewarded with post to ICJ
RajeshA
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RajeshA »

How about:

Italian Qaatil vaapas karo,
Moorkh Sarkar chaukas karo!


:D
chaanakya
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by chaanakya »

vic wrote:Anyone remember another CJI who quashed all criminal cases in Bhopal tragedy and was rewarded with post to ICJ
Yeah, I did mention that issue in previous post. he was awarded with chairmanship of the Trust Hospital meant for Bhopal victims whom he betrayed. He was later forced to resign recently. guess who Ahmadi. And now we have Kabir.
Sushupti
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Sushupti »

The Italian albatross !

My friend Jaideep Prabhu, has written a very well researched and argued post on the Italian Marines case - “The Italian Job” . As is wont between friends, picking up some arguments with him. Here goes:
First, the decision to send the Italian Marines for Christmas was NOT taken by the SC, as Jaideep suggests in his post, but by the Kerala HC. It is only in the second instance, when they were sent for voting, was the SC involved. The difference is vital. As Jaideep himself points out, while sending Marines for Christmas, the court ( Kerala HC) demanded and ensured a bond of Rs. 6 crores. The SC, which is the highest court in the land, settled for no surety when sending the Marines back a second time for voting. The question is why?
Second, between the Marines going for Christmas and returning and Marines going back again for voting, one vital, important and perhaps defining event took place. When the Marines went to Italy for Christmas and returned, their appeal in SC regarding who had jurisdiction to try them - India or Italy – was still pending. That matter was settled by SC unambiguously on 18th Jan 2013 – that India had jurisdiction. That is why when they returned the first time around, they had and incentive and hope that the SC might rule in their favor and the matter would end. When they went back a second time, that hope was gone. Thus the perfidy.
Third, Jaideep seems to suggest all the while that India might have been better off dealing with this diplomatically from the start. Actually India did try this. When an equivalent of “blood money” was offered to settle the deal outside courts, GOI facilitated it. However, once a case is in court, as all murder cases must go, since it is not a private case, only the courts have the final view. So the blood money settlement deal offer went to SC which struck it down, emphasizing that there is no concept of blood money in IPC. The Supreme Court tied down GOI’s hands for any diplomatic deal and unless the GOI itself were to disregard the SC, how could it have settled the mater diplomatically?
Fourth, Jaideep seems to argue that going forward, India’s legal options may be limited. As has been argued by many, Italy through its ambassador, became a litigant in the SC. Someone who claims to enjoy diplomatic immunity from Indian laws, does not then become a litigant under the same law. Because if they do, perforce they are conceding that the law applies to them. Consider what Italy did – it appealed in SC, hoping to get a judgement in favor. Had it gone in favor, they would have argued that matter settled as even SC does not buy GOI stance. But Italy lost. Their argument now is that irrespective, let’s settle it diplomatically. That is like having the cake and eating it too. To now argue, that India should help settle is diplomatically, is actually asking India to help Italy have its cake and eat it too.
Fifth, When Italian ambassador approached the SC a second time in February 2013, to let the marines go for voting, implicit in the appeal was the acceptance of 18th Jan 2013 order that India had jurisdiction. So the talk of India not having jurisdiction , or that now India itself should take the matter to international arbitration post SC order, as some others have argued, is beyond pale. In addition the Italian ambassador submitted a signed affidavit in SC. That one only does, when one submits to the jurisdiction of the court and appeals to the court based on the laws that govern the court. Common sense would tell, a sense to which Arun Jaitley, Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha and Harish Salve, former counsel of Italy agree, that once having submitted to jurisdiction of a court, one cannot revert later that the court has no jurisdiction. Therefore, diplomatic immunity, as is being claimed now, would also seem to not hold and the Italian ambassador can be clearly held in contempt and sent to jail.
Sixth, the author laments that fact that Sonia Gandhi’s name has been brought into the case rather unnecessarily. Consider the facts of this case first, and some other instances :
A) Kerala HC, which let the marines go first time, imposed much stricter clauses before letting the marines go. This when they still had incentive to come back. When matter came to SC, and when GOI was now arguing (instead of Kerala state earlier), and when marines had no incentive to come back, no such conditions were either demanded by GOI counsel nor imposed. The question is, why?
B) The SC in its 18th Jan order asked for setting up of a special court, in consultation with the SC, to try the marines. How much time should it take to do the same? GOI itself did it very expeditiously in case of the unfortunate Delhi gang rape case. In this case though, when the matter went to SC again on 23 rd Feb, the GOI, a month later, had still not moved on setting up the court. The Supreme Court was aghast at the delay and asked in anguish:
‘”If the special court had been expeditiously set up, the trial could have been over by now. Why is the Centre dragging its feet over the matter? Nobody has initiated any consultation process till now”.
The Supreme Court further asked the GOI counsel, P.P. Malhotra, if they intended to initiate the consultation? To even this, GOI counsel had no answers ! The GOI counsel, who presents in court the argument which his client, in this case the GOI, asks him to, had no idea whether GOI intended to set up the court at all. The question then is – why would the GOI drag its feet on a SC order? Under what compulsions? What was the motive?
C) When the Bofors scandal broke, it was argued that no connection should be made to a family even though Quattrocchi had been named. It would be “xenophobic” to impute such a connection, argued some. However, events slowly offered a peak into the true nature of what was the actual deal. When then Indian foreign minister, in a Congress regime, intervened to let Quattrocchi walk free in 1993, there were protests in India. The foreign minister had to resign. However, it was still argued that there was no evil design in this. The next Congress regime, on taxpayers money, sent its Law Minster to England to free Quattrocchi’s sealed back accounts. Which government is so benevolent towards a citizen of a third country? Yet, it was again argued that no sinister motive in this. Do we beleive the protestations of innocence in Quattrocchi case ? If not, they why not?
D) The Augusta Westland scandal is is too well known to bear repetition. “The Family” has been named as the prime recipient of the kickbacks in the case. Who is referred to as “The Family”? When in 1987, the Bofors story broke, many found it implausible to believe that there could be a connection with Quattrocchi and a family. Hardly anyone doubts it now. Same pro forma arguments are being offered again that no connections between “The Family” and kickbacks in Helicopter deal. Does anyone beleive it in light of past experience?
As James Bond famously said, “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times, it’s enemy action.” Arun Jaitley agrees too. Who does not?

http://amishra77.com/2013/03/14/the-italian-albatross/
Sagar G
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Sagar G »

rgsrini wrote:But Italy has lost the trust of India and Indians. It is simply a collosal cost to pay for Italy, for ensuring that 2 cold blooded murderers escape justice.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I wait for the next round of Rahul baba showing his derriere and desi cheer girls falling over each other to plant a lip print on it.
ramana
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by ramana »

Did you have to be that crass on this forum?
ramana
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RoyG »

Dealing with this situation is going to be a cakewalk for Congress. They've managed to muddle through far worse. The Italian Ambassador will go home as well and the media will focus on something else.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Sagar G »

ramana wrote:Did you have to be that crass on this forum?
ramana
I apologise but I don't think there is any room left for decency in the current time.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Sagar G »

RoyG wrote:Dealing with this situation is going to be a cakewalk for Congress. They've managed to muddle through far worse. The Italian Ambassador will go home as well and the media will focus on something else.
And we will surely have UPA-3
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by chetak »

Silence maintained by motormouth katju is deafening.

Does he not want India and eyetalie to merge and form one single union?? :)
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Prem »

Humm Qatil Hai tho Kya Hua , Italy Wale Hai
Humm UooooPA Sarkar ke favourite Saaaale Hai !!
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Feeling sad about the whole picture, I thought I'd forgotten things happening after kargil, but suddenly remembered today how Sonia had moved all over the country with piece of paper in the hand on coffin scandal, rally after rally she was waving it and spewing venom, of course media gave full coverage.

Seeing the lazy and khanapurti response of BJP scandal after scandal just stuck me that maybe the myth of dilli billi is true. It seems to have become a ritual after every scandal jaitley give a beautiful speech in parliament, then few BJP leaders will give certain speeches in different places touching whatever the current scandal and of course con-paid, con-blackmailed, US-European leashed media ignores it.

Remembered during my childhood, everytime indira would raise the price of petrol Jansangh/BJP used to do lot of things to draw attention, Vajpayee would come to the parliament on a ठेला (hand cart), there would be bandhs and all that.........

And now familia seems to doing scandal after scandal right and left like there is no tomorow, while BJP hardly does anything.

On this issue they could have forced the media to cover the events, like ABVP doing big pradarshan outside italian embassy, courting arresting , being hit by water cannons , even if media tried to suppress/condemn the event no way they could have, and jaitley- sushma- goel- joshi- advani all could have gone. But seems like they're too drawing room leadership oriented people, don't want to get on the street for some action. Such laziness such khanapurti, shrugging the shoulders and saying what we can do jaitley - sushma have given such beautiful speeches in parliament , what more we can do.

Is ABVP dead completely? I remember during my days in Rajdhani College Delhi 20+ years back they used to be such a fiery lot, every few months they'd bring Madan Lal Khurana to point out the misdeeds of rajiv govt.

Could it be true that there is a dilly-billy really? Atleast todarmals, mansinghs were openly with akbar, while these pretend to be in opposition?

Is it that they're so compromised, or lazy, or moles that such opportunity after opportunity presents itself and these people just do repeat of their great 1 speech per scandal in parliament.

The whole public is in dark about what happens, I went for a haircut today , it was a bit crowded so sat there waiting my turn, tried to strike the conversation about this sailor issue with people around, one youth busy on his mobile mumbled 'sab chor hain' and went back to his mobile, another group of youngsters sitting there gave me a strange look as if I were a cuckoo to give attention to such political shit and went back to their gossips, the barber said 'angrejo ka raaj achha tha' and those getting haircut nodded. That's it nobody seems to care that two citizens of ours have been murdered by 2 italians ...........

What a depressing picture, on forum somebody says its a matter between vatican and the murdered fishermen's christian family. Somebody says 'we lost the high moral ground because a murderer+rapist committed suicide in our prison..........' , funny the italian murderers weren't even in the prison, they were living luxuriously in their embassies.

Sorry for the rant folks, but had to cathart somewhere........... :(
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Prem »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-21781993
India orders Italy ambassador Mancini not to leave
ndia's Supreme Court has ordered the Italian ambassador not to leave the country after Rome's refusal to return two marines charged with the murder of two fishermen in Kerala last year.he court had allowed the marines to go home to vote in last month's elections.Ambassador Daniele Mancini had personally assured the court the marines would return by 22 March.On Wednesday, PM Manmohan Singh warned that "there will be consequences" unless Italy returned the marines.In unusually strong language, the prime minister said that Italy's refusal to send back the marines was "unacceptable".Rome's decision has come as a major embarrassment for the Indian government and opposition parties have been demanding their immediate return.'Breach of undertaking'
On Thursday morning, the court headed by Chief Justice Altamas Kabir issued a notice to the Italian ambassador, restraining him from leaving without its permission.Italy wants the marines to be tried at homeThe ambassador has been asked to respond to the notice by 18 March.India's Attorney General GE Vahanvati told the judges that Rome's failure to return the two marines "is a breach of undertaking given to the highest court of the land and the government is extremely concerned about it".In February, the Supreme Court allowed Massimilian Latorre and Salvatore Girone to go home to vote in the Italian elections. They were ordered to return within four weeks.But on Monday, Italy informed India that the marines would not be coming back, prompting a diplomatic row.The marines are accused of shooting the fishermen in February 2012. They said they mistook them for pirates.Italy argues that because the case is now the subject of international maritime law, it has been decided that the pair will not return to India "on the expiration of the permission granted to them"
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by member_22872 »

Italy: We are on solid legal ground in marines' case

Chaankya garu or someone please comment on the legal jurisdiction of this case please?
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Avid »

Folks,

I urge BR members to systematically disabuse the propaganda in the western press.

Here are the key points to use in rebuttals and letters to Editors:

a) The Italian Ambassador acted as a guarantor to the Supreme Court of India, in a judicial matter. This representation was to a Court, and not to the Government of India. In doing so, he was acting on personal surety and not in diplomatic capacity. Fundamentally, he got involved in a judicial matter. Government-Government matters are covered by diplomatic standing. This was not the case here.

b) The matter at hand is not diplomatic, but judicial in nature. It is not GoI vs. Italy diplomatic dispute, but Supreme Court of India vs. Italian Ambassador. He made a personal representation to the court in a criminal case. That representation is not covered under diplomatic norms. Thus, in this Vienna Conventions do not hold. It is a legal dispute. The issue at hand is at the very least contempt of court for which he must face trial.

c) Even if GoI were to expel the Ambassador, he cannot leave the country without SC lifting his travel ban and absolving him of criminal contempt. In democracy, elected governments do not get to overrule judiciary matters arbitrarily. Even if GoI was to attempt and extend him diplomatic coverage for this and help him out -- the fact that he is in contempt of court in a capacity that is not of a diplomat, would not allow it to.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by member_22872 »

This is a well hatched plan, the Italian ambassador played his part. This is well thought out by Italian gov about how to get these two TFTA trigger happy pests to get out of India. And I am sure the GoI played it's part, else it is complete silliness to think of letting these Mofos return home just to cast vote. As Rajesh ji said, they could have sent the votes by mail, if they are so enthusiastic to be a part of their electoral process. I guess this is 'you scratch my back, I will scratch your back' kind of deal between Italian gov and Italian run gov of India.
Last edited by member_22872 on 14 Mar 2013 22:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Avid »

Avid wrote:Folks,

I urge BR members to systematically disabuse the propaganda in the western press.

Here are the key points to use in rebuttals and letters to Editors:

a) The Italian Ambassador acted as a guarantor to the Supreme Court of India, in a judicial matter. This representation was to a Court, and not to the Government of India. In doing so, he was acting on personal surety and not in diplomatic capacity. Fundamentally, he got involved in a judicial matter. Government-Government matters are covered by diplomatic standing. This was not the case here.

b) The matter at hand is not diplomatic, but judicial in nature. It is not GoI vs. Italy diplomatic dispute, but Supreme Court of India vs. Italian Ambassador. He made a personal representation to the court in a criminal case. That representation is not covered under diplomatic norms. Thus, in this Vienna Conventions do not hold. It is a legal dispute. The issue at hand is at the very least contempt of court for which he must face trial.

c) Even if GoI were to expel the Ambassador, he cannot leave the country without SC lifting his travel ban and absolving him of criminal contempt. In democracy, elected governments do not get to overrule judiciary matters arbitrarily. Even if GoI was to attempt and extend him diplomatic coverage for this and help him out -- the fact that he is in contempt of court in a capacity that is not of a diplomat, would not allow it to.
http://www.firstpost.com/india/why-sc-c ... 60715.html

The Supreme Court in its order to allow the Marines to return to Italy to vote, had stated, “An additional affidavit has been filed by Daniele Mancini, ambassador of Italy in India, representing the applicant No.3, indicating that under the Italian laws, the petitioners 1 and 2 are not entitled to cast their votes in their present circumstances, and that they have to travel to Italy for the said purpose. The said respondent has also affirmed an affidavit of undertaking on 9th February, 2013, whereby he has taken full responsibility for the petitioner Nos. 1 and 2 to proceed to Italy in the custody and control of the Government of Italy and to ensure their return to India in terms of this order.”

----

No one forced him to take such full responsibility in a court of law. He took it voluntarily, and his government is the one making him a scapegoat. It is not GoI's responsibility to back up the ambassador of Italy :-)
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by RamaY »

^ So the ambassador told the SC that the marines cannot exercise their votes either thru postal ballots or remote polling stations but have to be in Italy per Italian laws?

Interesting. What those laws could be?
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by member_22872 »

From wiki regarding 2006 election:
For the first time in Italian history, Italian citizens living abroad were able to vote by postal ballot (without having to physically return to Italy to cast their vote) for 12 deputies and 6 senators who will represent them in the Italian Parliament, an unusual system that was supported by Silvio Berlusconi and promoted by Mirko Tremaglia. These parliamentary seats are organized into four constituencies (Europe, North & Central America, Latin America, and Africa/Asia/Oceania). Candidates must live in their respective constituencies.
Voting rights for Italians living abroad prior to 2006
Italian citizens living outside of Italy have always had the De Jure right to vote in all referendums and elections being held in Italy (provided they had registered their residence abroad with their relevant consulate). However until late 2001, any citizen wishing to vote, was required to physically return to the city or town in Italy where he or she was registered on the electoral roll. The only exception to this rule was for the Italian elections to the european parliament in which voters could cast their ballot at their nearest consulate but only if they had their residence in one of the other 14 EU countries.

Until 2001 the Italian state offered citizens living abroad a free return train journey to their home town in Italy in order to vote, however the portion of the train journey that was free of charge was only on Italian soil. Any costs incurred in getting from their place of residence abroad to the Italian border had to be covered by the citizen wanting to vote, therefore a free return train journey was hardly an incentive for the large Italian communities living as far away as in the United States, Argentina or Australia. For this reason very few Italians abroad made use of this right to vote, unless they lived in cities and towns that bordered to Italy such as in Germany, Switzerland, France and Austria. Various Italian minorities living abroad (notably in the United States) protested frequently at this lack of political representation especially if they paid taxes on property owned in Italy.

After numerous years of petitioning and fierce debate, the Italian government, in late 2001, finally passed a law allowing Italian citizens living abroad to vote in elections in Italy by postal ballot. The change was the result of a thirty-year struggle to recognize the rights and special interests of Italians who have migrated abroad but retained their Italian identity.

Italians wishing to excise this right must first register their residence abroad with their relevant consulate.
So no Italian law says they have to be physically present to cast their vote.
Yayavar
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Yayavar »

If Sonia and her factotum can get the marines back now, the whole media will sing their gun-gaan in cohesion for a long long time and any italian link talk will be forever obliterated. Augusta can be blocked - afterall Bofors was.
rgsrini
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by rgsrini »

Here is the email address for the Italian embassy in New Delhi. ambasciata.newdelhi@esteri.it

I am planning to send an email highlighting the potential impact to India-Italy relationship and the loss of trust this betrayal has caused. I am also planning to send a link to this BR thread, to give them direct visibility to the public opinion in India . Who knows, Besides the official response, they may already be monitoring this thread along with other websites, twitter feeds, and comments sections in the newspapers.

I request all the forum members to send an email to communicate your outrage as well.
Chandragupta
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Chandragupta »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Feeling sad about the whole picture, I thought I'd forgotten things happening after kargil, but suddenly remembered today how Sonia had moved all over the country with piece of paper in the hand on coffin scandal, rally after rally she was waving it and spewing venom, of course media gave full coverage.

Seeing the lazy and khanapurti response of BJP scandal after scandal just stuck me that maybe the myth of dilli billi is true. It seems to have become a ritual after every scandal jaitley give a beautiful speech in parliament, then few BJP leaders will give certain speeches in different places touching whatever the current scandal and of course con-paid, con-blackmailed, US-European leashed media ignores it.

Remembered during my childhood, everytime indira would raise the price of petrol Jansangh/BJP used to do lot of things to draw attention, Vajpayee would come to the parliament on a ठेला (hand cart), there would be bandhs and all that.........

And now familia seems to doing scandal after scandal right and left like there is no tomorow, while BJP hardly does anything.

On this issue they could have forced the media to cover the events, like ABVP doing big pradarshan outside italian embassy, courting arresting , being hit by water cannons , even if media tried to suppress/condemn the event no way they could have, and jaitley- sushma- goel- joshi- advani all could have gone. But seems like they're too drawing room leadership oriented people, don't want to get on the street for some action. Such laziness such khanapurti, shrugging the shoulders and saying what we can do jaitley - sushma have given such beautiful speeches in parliament , what more we can do.

Is ABVP dead completely? I remember during my days in Rajdhani College Delhi 20+ years back they used to be such a fiery lot, every few months they'd bring Madan Lal Khurana to point out the misdeeds of rajiv govt.

Could it be true that there is a dilly-billy really? Atleast todarmals, mansinghs were openly with akbar, while these pretend to be in opposition?

Is it that they're so compromised, or lazy, or moles that such opportunity after opportunity presents itself and these people just do repeat of their great 1 speech per scandal in parliament.

The whole public is in dark about what happens, I went for a haircut today , it was a bit crowded so sat there waiting my turn, tried to strike the conversation about this sailor issue with people around, one youth busy on his mobile mumbled 'sab chor hain' and went back to his mobile, another group of youngsters sitting there gave me a strange look as if I were a cuckoo to give attention to such political shit and went back to their gossips, the barber said 'angrejo ka raaj achha tha' and those getting haircut nodded. That's it nobody seems to care that two citizens of ours have been murdered by 2 italians ...........

What a depressing picture, on forum somebody says its a matter between vatican and the murdered fishermen's christian family. Somebody says 'we lost the high moral ground because a murderer+rapist committed suicide in our prison..........' , funny the italian murderers weren't even in the prison, they were living luxuriously in their embassies.

Sorry for the rant folks, but had to cathart somewhere........... :(
Responded here : http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1424904
Cosmo_R
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Cosmo_R »

viv wrote:If Sonia and her factotum can get the marines back now, the whole media will sing their gun-gaan in cohesion for a long long time and any italian link talk will be forever obliterated. Augusta can be blocked - afterall Bofors was.
Not so easy now. Read how the Italian media (Berlusconi) have been playing this up for the last six months. Anyone who sends them back to India is toast.
Virupaksha
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Virupaksha »

Cosmo_R wrote:
viv wrote:If Sonia and her factotum can get the marines back now, the whole media will sing their gun-gaan in cohesion for a long long time and any italian link talk will be forever obliterated. Augusta can be blocked - afterall Bofors was.
Not so easy now. Read how the Italian media (Berlusconi) have been playing this up for the last six months. Anyone who sends them back to India is toast.
Basically, we have to make the ambassador here toast. I am not sure how though,

http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/contemptact/S12.html

basically says, that a mere apology will suffice most of the time AND has a max punishment of 6 months. Court can at its discretion order no punishment or a small fine. So contempt of court is not the way to go - though we should initiate it to keep up the pressure.
Cosmo_R
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Cosmo_R »

Virupaksha wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:
Not so easy now. Read how the Italian media (Berlusconi) have been playing this up for the last six months. Anyone who sends them back to India is toast.
Basically, we have to make the ambassador here toast. I am not sure how though,

http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/contemptact/S12.html

basically says, that a mere apology will suffice most of the time AND has a max punishment of 6 months. Court can at its discretion order no punishment or a small fine. So contempt of court is not the way to go - though we should initiate it to keep up the pressure.
The amby is small rigatoni. It's the Gov of Italy that sent the assurance via the amby who could not do it on his own. Italy has to pay and it will not and the guns will slowly train on MMS and then Lady Macbeth.

Watch Modi tighten the noose.
pentaiah
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by pentaiah »

Did some TSP terrorist say Indians are morons
UPA II is very hard at work to earn the title...


I cant beleive thst BRF posters are so naieve that we do something now!
when Q was here we couldnt pluck a hair from anywhere..

We cant hang people convicted of terror without causing a tremor in Secular camp

You can buy Judge dime a dozen as Rahul Mehta sir ji

Our Magistrates in departmental exams were caught copying en mass
Joke is they went to court saying the invigilators had no jurisdiction on personal belongings in the examination hall
and they won the heart of Lord Justices.... :mrgreen:


and most importantly BRF folks who are smart engough to figure out complex variables are forgetting simple rule

“Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem.” John Lenon

Our arresting the Italian Marines with Italian hidden hand directing the country is the problem

The death of two fishermen is not the problem people die in terror blasts by troves so their death is also not a problem.

But the sad state of affairs is even opposition parties are also seeing a no problem in not articulating their disgust

and that is problem for right thinking citizens and finding no solution in our BS law system which is more corrupt and consequential than any thing else is the biggest problem.

India today is Scam a day
India today is not India we read.
India today is no where near Rakshaks dreams
I rest My case
Kannan
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by Kannan »

Diatribes aside, this is probably the most the Indian government has pretended to give a shit about one of its citizens in ages :rotfl: :(
anupmisra
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Re: AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Post by anupmisra »

Jhujar wrote:India orders Italy ambassador Mancini not to leave
Perhaps, UPA, in its infinite wisdom, should allow the Italian ambassador to go back to Italy and fetch the two marines. Lets see if he comes back.
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