Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

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member_23651
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_23651 »

Hello Indranil/Maitya,

Quick question, We know that Kaveri has not been able tp achieve required wet thrust by not so significant margin. But how difficult will it be spin off a helicopter engine from Kaveri. Also what could be the engine life estimate of Kaveri in current configuration?


Thanks
AnantS
Indranil
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

I don't understand engines so much. But I don't think making a turboshaft engine using a turbofan engine is easy. The material tech can be the same but the airflows are different. They are more related to the turboprop engines.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

From a layman's view, prop blades are much shorter than helo rotor blades and the purposes are entirely different. the helo one being mainly focused on vertical lift... indranilroy ji you are much more knowledgeable than what you may think about yourself.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Singha »

Turboprops need a gearbox, a system to change blade angle and the blades themselves none of which we have any exp in. Even blade making has specialized cos like hamilton sunstrand and zhadanov(made those famous contra rotating bear blades)....so likely to be some gora crown jewel techs in such domains as well.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

do we know how much indic is dhruv ka shakti? google does not yield results.
member_22605
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_22605 »

Actually the helicopter's rotors have very little to do with the turboshaft engine, unlike in the case of a turboprop. Turboshaft engines need to drive the transmission system which intun drives the rotors. The gear box here being a separate unit while this is not the case in turboprops. And turboshafts need not carry collective pitch control units that turboprops have as the pitch control(both cyclic and collective) are taken care of by separate mechanisms and in ALH/LCH's case the system is within the gearbox itself(the only helicopters in the world which have this system)
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_22605 »

HAL's 20kN engine endeavor is fully an in-house project from what i know and does not so far have any GTRE input.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

I think that HAL interest in indigenous development of 20kn turbofan and new turboprop engine are just vague balloons floated which are not even considered seriously by HAL.
Last edited by vic on 17 Mar 2013 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
member_22605
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by member_22605 »

The last time we heard from our chairman, he was very serious. Don't think he would change his mind.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

raghuk wrote:The last time we heard from our chairman, he was very serious. Don't think he would change his mind.
Can you please list the aero engine projects that have been taken up by HAL.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

Ok, the marketing guy from middle rung position in an Oil Company now heading HAL was serious! What has he done about it? HAL took out a tender for turboprop engines. HAL already has v v very long-term suspicious contract for AL-55 which is 17kn engine and potential can go upto 25kn.

If there was even a little genuine interest HAL would have announced program to further develop Garrett and AL-55. If The whole intention is to go in for JV for new series of engines, then it is me too wanna make money from new contracts syndrome.
Last edited by vic on 17 Mar 2013 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

Duplicate post removed.
Last edited by Indranil on 17 Mar 2013 20:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

vic wrote:Ok, the marketing guy from middle rung position heading HAL was serious. What has he done about it? HAL took out a tender for turboprop engines. HAL already has v v very long-term suspicious contract for AL-55 which is 17kn engine and potential can go upto 25kn.

If there was even a little genuine interest HAL would have announced program to further develop Garrett and AL-55. If The whole intention is to go in for JV for new series of engines, then it is me too wanna make money from new contracts syndrome.
Vic ji

We would be lucky if the new engine efforts provide certified engines within 10 years. Till then HAL how do you suppose that half goes about building its trainers.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by vic »

As I pointed out there is already Garrett
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

Unfortunately, the Garrett engine would be underpowered for the the HTT-40.

Also, we have no idea if the HAL turboprop effort is a development of the Garrett or not. But I do agree with you that HAL slept on it for a while. They should have targeted to produce HTT-40 + HAL-turboprop engine by 2010. Now HTT-40 won't be ready by 2015 -2016. and definitely the turboprop engine is further into the future.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by shiv »

I could not think of any other polace to put this news - I tend to keep track of aero engine developments and since this thread is also bout engines in general - here goes:

Just look at where the engine biggies are going. Catching up not easy, and copying - fuggedabahtit :lol:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 558176.xml
Pratt & Whitney Readies For A320NEO Engine Flight Tests
The first Pratt & Whitney PW1100G geared turbofan (GTF) to be flight tested for the Airbus A320NEO is being prepared for installation on the engine maker’s Boeing 747SP testbed in Mirabel, Canada.
...
Pratt “initially targeted a 12% reduction in fuel burn,” with the GTF but now will achieve 15%, says Saia, adding that the expected performance benefits are reflected in the market penetration of the engine. The announcement of the PW1700G/1900G variants for Embraer’s second-generation E-Jet series in January marked the fifth application for the PW1000G series after Bombardier’s CSeries, the A320NEO, Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ) and Irkut’s MS-21 project.

“We have just over 3,000 engines on order, and we’re ecstatic,” says Saia. “Overall, we have now tested 15 engines and accumulated 4,500 hours of testing and 450 hours in flight.” Following delivery of the first shipset of PW1500Gs to Bombardier for the CSeries, Pratt is “now building four production engines” in readiness for the start of flight tests of the aircraft later this year.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 474485.xml
Pratt & Whitney has reacted angrily to CFM’s assertions that its Leap-1A engine for the Airbus A320NEO will be up to $4 million cheaper to operate over 15 years than the competing PW1100G on a per aircraft basis.

“Effectively they’re defying the laws of physics and the laws of economics,” says Pratt president David Hess. The geared turbofan has six-fewer stages than the conventionally configured CFM engine. “That’s 25% fewer stages and 2,000 fewer airfoils – or 50% fewer. Plus it runs cooler. So someone needs to explain to me how you take that and translate it into a $3 million to $4 million advantage in terms of net present value,” he adds.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:But I do agree with you that HAL slept on it for a while. They should have targeted to produce HTT-40 + HAL-turboprop engine by 2010.
Yeah I remember how IAF afsars were giving dharna in Ramleela maidaan in support of indigenous turbo trainer when during midnight HAL afsars came and lathi charged the poor IAF afsars from there. True Story.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:But I do agree with you that HAL slept on it for a while. They should have targeted to produce HTT-40 + HAL-turboprop engine by 2010.
Yeah I remember how IAF afsars were giving dharna in Ramleela maidaan in support of indigenous turbo trainer when during midnight HAL afsars came and lathi charged the poor IAF afsars from there. True Story.
yeah and inspite of those dharnas which have intensified of late with the chief of air staff joining them, HAL HAS DECIDED to develop the the turboprop engine and the HTT-40 completely on its own NOW! I wonder what was stopping it from doing this 10 years back?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Austin »

indranilroy wrote:yeah and inspite of those dharnas which have intensified of late with the chief of air staff joining them, HAL HAS DECIDED to develop the the turboprop engine and the HTT-40 completely on its own NOW! I wonder what was stopping it from doing this 10 years back?
Probably funding , 15 years back HAL had shown HTT-35 Turboprop Trainer but IAF and MOD didnt show much interest , today may be the situation is the same but HAL would have enough funds and resources to go on its own without needing funding from IAF ....I suspect we are looking at HAL , ADA and NAL battle as they seem to have their own ambition and want to grow in their own right.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:I wonder what was stopping it from doing this 10 years back?
The same organization/ministry who now say that "We have the Pilatus PC-7. It's a proven aircraft. The project HAL plans is from scratch. Our indications are that the costs will be too high. There is no need for all this."
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by shiv »

If you ask my personal opinion. I think India too, in the armed forces and DRDO are going through a change of mindset as we have had on BRF, realizing that dependence on imports has an incremental number of negatives. Having said that, we are now in a different era. Up to 1990, in the cold war era, era the USSR could have "lost us" and readily saw us through our times of need with unheard of things like "Rupee payment"

After 1990, the USSR became less efficient and less reliable, and previously unreliable equipment became even more unreliable. Meanwhile the west was less reluctant to supply us with stuff. But the costs are huge and are counter weighed by the risk of sanctions, EULA and the fact that the west is till merrily supplying our worst adversaries. So there seems to be an overall realization that we must learn to live with our own stuff.

The INSAS for example has been cursed and cursed and cursed on BRF and by the lay media. And while this cursing went on the Kargil war was fought with INSAS armed soldiers and 14 years passed after that war. A million man army has been incrementally using that weapon for about 17-18 years (I think). Now once again we have eager beaver foreign companies jumping in. Beretta of Italy, Sig Sauer. Some these names have people in love and drooling on gun/weapon sites. But see the negatives that come with them. Ultimately we are going to have to dig into the hard work and resourcefulness of our own people. They will be Ram Singhs, Bipins and Vadivelus, not Glock, Smith and Wesson and Beretta. There will be problems. There will be failures. But we have to get past them ourselves. In this business its every nation for itself - no one is in business to help India. And if Indians too are dismissive of Indian work - we have now seen the consequences of that. We just have to bite the bullet and make do.

Did anyone see the video I posted in the multimedia thread - about Lockheed. Did you see the part where the man reminisces about the number of test pilots lost. Those people are heroes. We nee our heroes. we simply cannot keep on admiring heroes of other nations. More than anything else we need a change of mindset. That is why I was impressed with Jaeger saying that Tejas is a 2nd gen fighter for India. HF 24 was 1st gen. INSAS is Indian 1st gen assault rifle. Arjun is a 2nd gen tank, assuming Vijayanta was 1st gen. If America is on its 5th gen aircraft good for them we are still in our 2nd gen

Sorry for the ramble.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by PratikDas »

^^ A very relevant one. The message is one of the few things I have been able to internalise over the years with BRF. It is why I feel one can thrash GTRE or HAL for inefficiency only if one believes in their need to persist, their need to reform, in the need for them to deliver, and in the need for the Indian government to start managing more professionally by doing both - offering these institutions juicy carrots in the way of hefty budgets and promising the use of a long stick if SMART goals are typically not achieved.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by SaiK »

++..However, one should note constructive criticisms are different from DDM-ic traitorous firangi allegiance. There are many bandwagon maulers who would go trigger happy in slamming all things indic.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

Austin wrote:
indranilroy wrote:yeah and inspite of those dharnas which have intensified of late with the chief of air staff joining them, HAL HAS DECIDED to develop the the turboprop engine and the HTT-40 completely on its own NOW! I wonder what was stopping it from doing this 10 years back?
Probably funding , 15 years back HAL had shown HTT-35 Turboprop Trainer but IAF and MOD didnt show much interest , today may be the situation is the same but HAL would have enough funds and resources to go on its own without needing funding from IAF ....I suspect we are looking at HAL , ADA and NAL battle as they seem to have their own ambition and want to grow in their own right.
That is the only reason I believe in too. This melodrama of HAL can only proceed IAF/MoF/MoD let's it proceed is not true.
Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:I wonder what was stopping it from doing this 10 years back?
The same organization/ministry who now say that "We have the Pilatus PC-7. It's a proven aircraft. The project HAL plans is from scratch. Our indications are that the costs will be too high. There is no need for all this."
Wah! My question was, if HAL can do it now inspite of the same attitude of the customer, then why couldn't it do it in 1995? And your answer is because it is the same attitude of the customer. Reminds me of my school days. When I had no clue about the answer, I would use all my essay skills to rewrite the question in 5 different ways.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

indranilroy wrote:BREAKING NEWS :-o
GTRE's next engine (from tender to Design & Development of three stage blisk fan)
Design and development of three stage 5:1 pressure ratio all Blisk fan for 75/110 kN thrust class engine. The broad design specifications and constraints are defined as below.

Code: Select all

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|               Design specifications: ISA-SLS - P1=101.325kPa ; T1=288.16K                             |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Parameter             | Value        | Constraint                | Remark                             |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|------------------------------------|
| Mass flow rate        | 85-87 kg/s   |                           | ~5% growth potential should be     |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------| available. GTRE would like to      |
| Pressure Ratio        | 4.8-5.0      |                           | participate in the design process. | 
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------| The mode of participation will be  |
| Isentropic efficiency | 83-84%       | Minimum 83%               | deliberated later.                 |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|                                    |
| Surge margin          | ~22%         | Part speed margin should  |                                    | 
|                       |              | be more than 25%          |                                    |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|------------------------------------|
| Max inlet diameter    | As needed by | ~780 mm                   | Selection of material will dictate |         
|                       | the designer |                           | maximum rotational speed.          |
|-----------------------|--------------|---------------------------|                                    |
| Rotational speed      | As needed by | Nil                       |                                    |
|                       | the designer |                           |                                    |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time frame for the above activities up to component level aerodynamic testing, aeromechanical testing for generating performance map, structural testing relating to life and safety is approximately five years (60 months). It also includes manufacture of five sets of hardware for testing and evaluation of above tests.

SCOPE OF WORK: The scope of work includes Design of Fan, CAD/CAE Simulations & Analysis, Prototype Development, Performance & Functional Testing and Proving of the Fan. This includes certification level tests as per MIL 5007-E .Further, it also includes transfer of production technology to GTRE which is inclusive of setting up of infrastructure, training and assistance in manufacturing of blisks.
GTRE has just extended the due dates for the submission of the above tender to 30th April 2013.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Austin »

Blisk Fan means there is no SCB or they mean the same ? Also what is the T:W ratio of this new engine ?

110kn means its for AMCA project.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Singha »

I believe blisk means the entire set of blades on a certain stage and the mounting ring on the shaft is machined out of a single piece of material. that material can be anything incl SCB or composites etc.

blisks probably have greater strength as a unified structure vs mounting each blade separately. but any blade damage will be replacing the whole blisk of that stage - fast but costly as the entire thing will likely need to be thrown away?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Does that mean that the Kaveri effort has now been closed. Or that the GTRE will continue to work on the Kaveri, with the objective of it powering the LCA.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pankajs »

Austin wrote:Blisk Fan means there is no SCB or they mean the same ? Also what is the T:W ratio of this new engine ?
Singha wrote:I believe blisk means the entire set of blades on a certain stage and the mounting ring on the shaft is machined out of a single piece of material. that material can be anything incl SCB or composites etc.
The keyword here is FAN. Blisk is usually used in the Fan or the compressor portion of the engine while SBC is required for the Turbine section.

Wiki:Blisk
Blisk manufacturing has been used since the mid 1980s. It was first used by Sermatech-Lehr (now known as GKN Aerospace [1]) in 1985 for the compressors of the T700 helicopter engine. Since then, its use has continued to increase in major applications for both compressors and fan blade rotors. Examples include the Rocketdyne RS-68 rocket engine and the General Electric F110 turbofan.
On the other hand, after reading the original web-link on the tender where the title of the tender is " Design & Development of three stage blisk fan" and comparing it to the Kaveri design on wikipedia I think the blisk is for the "three-stage low-pressure (LP) compressor".
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by maitya »

pankajs wrote:
Austin wrote:Blisk Fan means there is no SCB or they mean the same ? Also what is the T:W ratio of this new engine ?
Singha wrote:I believe blisk means the entire set of blades on a certain stage and the mounting ring on the shaft is machined out of a single piece of material. that material can be anything incl SCB or composites etc.
The keyword here is FAN. Blisk is usually used in the Fan or the compressor portion of the engine while SBC is required for the Turbine section.

Wiki:Blisk
Blisk manufacturing has been used since the mid 1980s. It was first used by Sermatech-Lehr (now known as GKN Aerospace [1]) in 1985 for the compressors of the T700 helicopter engine. Since then, its use has continued to increase in major applications for both compressors and fan blade rotors. Examples include the Rocketdyne RS-68 rocket engine and the General Electric F110 turbofan.
Pls note, blisk manufacturing tech is required for the compressor stages as well - with or without SCB tech. In fact, SCB and blisk manufacturing tech for the compressor are two different aspects alltogether.

For a turbine both are required no doubt, but for the modern compressor stages, blisk manufacturing tech is a vital (while SCB is not) factor.

To elaborate further, pls refer to this post of mine in the previous page of this thread - here


Essentially, the requirement of increasing the efficiency of compressor stages are mainly done by the following four ways:
1) Graduating to a high transonic/supersonic blade speed regime (of say 1.5-1.6M)
2) Low aspect ratio (aka wide chord) blade design and manufacturing
3) Manufacturing (mass-level) capability of multi-circular arc profile compressor blades

But to get to the above 3 factors we need the 4th factor of,
4) developing/acquiring manufacturing capability of increased blade strength and loading – by usage of blisk manufacturing, higher thermal loading metallurgy, High speed milling, Electro-Chemical machining, Linear friction welding etc. etc.

The problem is, with increasing blade tip speeds (1st factor above) and lower aspect ratio blades (2nd factor above), comes at a penalty of resultant increase in centrifugal force implying mechanical stress on the blade root and blade-disc fixtures. Furthermore increasing the blade tip speed etc will result in stage temperature increase as well.
Refer to the graphs depicting these realtionships in that post (in the previous page of this thread).

So, net-net, all of these requires addn blade strength and enhanced temp tolerance – pls refer to the following schematic (copied from previous page) on the relationship between the impact on compressor blade loading, blade speed, OPR and number or compressor stages.
Image


Also, reg SCB etc, pls note that Titanium-based compressor blades are good until about 700deg C (or thereabouts).
So blisk-based-manufactured Ti blades would be enough depending upon the ambient temp the compressor is required to operate in and also on the blade loading it's supposed to endure (both these factors in turn are dependent upon the 3 factors mentioned above) - but once these factors push the limits of Ti based blades, SCB (need not be of same composition and characteristics of a turbine blade, as the performance-constraining parameter values are quite a bit diff) based compressor-blades may become a requirement.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:Wah! My question was, if HAL can do it now inspite of the same attitude of the customer, then why couldn't it do it in 1995? And your answer is because it is the same attitude of the customer. Reminds me of my school days. When I had no clue about the answer, I would use all my essay skills to rewrite the question in 5 different ways.
HAL is "trying" to do it now it still isn't sure that it will be allowed to do it, forces both in IAF and MoD are trying there best to kill the programme. If stating obvious facts causes you to have mental flashbacks of your school days then I fail to see how that is relevant to this discussion.

HTT-35 (What mental flashbacks are you getting now plz tell).

We are OT here so answer me in Indian Aviation thread.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Unfortunately my friend, this discussion will go nowhere. You and me are both strongly opinioned about this and won't change our thoughts. So no point of discussing it on any thread. Let it rest.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Singha »

By mistake i hit page1 of this thread.
Take a look folks...saturn and snecma both bid to improve the kaveri in a jv. Big talk of having to txfer design knowledge and not just manufacturing process as wanted to upgrade it later.

All this in 2007 when my son was in Pre school. Today he has crossed preschool, nursery, lkg, ukg, class1, class 2 and will start class3 in june.

What happened? Nothing happened in the last six odd years on this foreign help.

Hope i dont have to repeat this sad tale as my son passes matric.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

Singha wrote:By mistake i hit page1 of this thread.
Take a look folks...saturn and snecma both bid to improve the kaveri in a jv. Big talk of having to txfer design knowledge and not just manufacturing process as wanted to upgrade it later.

All this in 2007 when my son was in Pre school. Today he has crossed preschool, nursery, lkg, ukg, class1, class 2 and will start class3 in june.

What happened? Nothing happened in the last six odd years on this foreign help.

Hope i dont have to repeat this sad tale as my son passes matric.
It gets worse. Think of 2000 when the idea of the follow on Mirage order was floated. 13 years and still no MMRCA. 25 years and no 155MM arty purchase and on and on.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Kaveri true to its name will be eternal as I have said many a time ( as it flows)
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by NRao »

engines, being engines, are in a zone of their own. Just cannot compare it to any other item out there. Cannot hurry it along like other IOC/FOC items.

Just not possible.

OR if that was possible, there would be a ton of entities that would have high slung engines.

On Snecma/GE/Russians, pure, distilled BS that they will GIVE any thing. They cannot. It is just not possible - even if India was willing to pay for it.

The last time one gave another was (IIRC) the Brits to Russians during WW II.

And look at what the Russians (this is not knock on them - failure is the nature of this business) who are great at engines did with the Sitara engine (AL-51?). One would think they would get a tiny engine like that straight the first time around.


Is India where we would like to be? Nope.

Is India doing good? Could do better.

Is it worth getting BP up? Nope.

India has to figure it out for an Indian engine. No one will help in any meaningful way. Just cannot happen. It is after all an engine for a high slung jet.
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pentaiah »

I don't want any SCB or some exotic engine give me a simple engine that is comparable to viper



Image


By the way this was used in kiran and now in Hwak as well so we know this engine

I any way forget Kaveri in the near future.


The viper can be used from Nirbhay to trainers
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by NRao »

Image

Not good enough for those activities?
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by Sagar G »

pentaiah wrote:I don't want any SCB or some exotic engine give me a simple engine that is comparable to viper
I am sorry maybe I forgot but please remind me who are you ???
pentaiah
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Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Pentaiah
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