China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

[shiv]

So now India will not sink these ships but will board these ships. How many warships India has that can be used to intercept, identify and then board all these ships ? Do you know how many ships are transiting the Indian Ocean ?

Do you know how many ships need to be boarded before shipping operators start crapping in their pants and insurance underwriters make it costly for China or stop shipping to China?

In Mao's time he wanted more Chinese dead. So human wave tactics were used in Korea and against India. Now all Chinese Han men are single sons. I wonder how many human waves will be cut down before Chinese parents start rioting and the heroic people's army will be needed at home to control the rioters?

In 1962 - 1000 Chinese dead would leave milions of parents ready with extra sons for war. In 2013 - 1000 dead is 2000 parents mourning, and parents of all other sons will worry that their old age is screwed as Commie party makes war. Interesting times.

[Selamat Pagi]

Bottomline is this. India (Economy smaller then even Italy) do not have the warships nor the capability to make a dent in the shipping route in the Indian Oceon. Try boarding an European Ship and see if the EU will remain silence. Does not India gets many of its weapons system from EU ?

[Victor]

We're talking about oil tankers. In wartime, it is normal practice to intercept enemy war material and a warning will be given: "all ships carrying oil and war materials to the enemy will be sunk". If idiot countries still try to get thru, they will be doing the gene pool a favor.

[shiv]

Bottomline is this. India (Economy smaller then even Italy) do not have the warships nor the capability to make a dent in the shipping route in the Indian Oceon. Try boarding an European Ship and see if the EU will remain silence. Does not India gets many of its weapons system from EU ?

People who write "bottom line" in a discussion means that they are scraping the bottom of their mental barrel for arguments. And your argument is to hope that EU will oppose India and join China in a war? Nice downhill ski there..

[member_22539]

^^That salamat paki dude sure comes up with the most asinine and bizarre arguments. Sometimes this thread is more entertaining than comedy central.

[ashi]

LOL. That is not how it works. All India has to do is to announce that any ship bound for India would have to positively identify itself and its cargo or be sunk. Other ships have to skirt Indian shores by 500 nautical miles. It is the "other ships" that will be targeted as they enter the straits of Malacca. Randomly stopping and boarding ships and sinking or impounding one or two confirmed ships going to China will raise shipping insurance rates sky high and make mommas of single child Chinese sailors on ships to tell them to come home to mummy and a nice bowl of cold noodles. No oil.

So basically you want to disrupt international trade. Fine. But you can't prevent China also sink confirmed ships going to India to retaliate either.

[Selamat Pagi]

We're talking about oil tankers. In wartime, it is normal practice to intercept enemy war material and a warning will be given: "all ships carrying oil and war materials to the enemy will be sunk". If idiot countries still try to get thru, they will be doing the gene pool a favor.

OK. Now India is going to sink a few Neutral European oil tankers ?

[Victor]

What part of "normal practice" do you not understand? The answer is yes - any ships carrying war material to the enemy is not neutral.

[pentaiah]

Bradmins sink the CNS Pagi on sight

[Selamat Pagi]

Deleted AGAIN

[Victor]

India will not stop world shipping, just chinese oil supplies. It has more than enough ships to do this but does not need them or even jets and submarines.Cheap land based missiles are more than enough.

Please check your facts on the worlds economies. India is #4 after US, China and Japan in PPP GDP, the proper measure of GDP. I guess you used nominal GDP because the chinese currency is artificially pegged to the dollar which makes it look big, just another one of those stupid errors which pose great danger for ordinary Chinese but massage their ego. Fine with us.

Boy we've touched a nerve here haven't we .

[shiv]

So basically you want to disrupt international trade. Fine. But you can't prevent China also sink confirmed ships going to India to retaliate either.

Not me. It will be China at war and that will affect international trade. That is how it will work if the Indian ocean is made a war zone. Did you seriously believe that India is going to sink and let China get her supplies? Those mothers of single Han sons will regret having voted the Communist party into power forever. Mommas little boys need to make sure they say a real proper goodbye to their mothers. You gonna have an awful lot of Chinese people with no children at all. That one child policy will really show itself up in a war. Chang, Wong, Ling, Hu, Chen, Wu - the whole lot buried at sea.

[P Chitkara]

Boy, will you let ships carrying supplies for India just sail through?

Anyway, common sense (which is proving to be not-so-common among likes of pagi) says, anybody helping the enemy during wartime is siding with the enemy.

In case of a conflict between us and China (which I don't think is happening anytime soon) everyone will adopt a hands off approach with both.

[subhamoy.das]

Bottomline is this. India (Economy smaller then even Italy) do not have the warships nor the capability to make a dent in the shipping route in the Indian Oceon. Try boarding an European Ship and see if the EU will remain silence. Does not India gets many of its weapons system from EU ?

I believe that u have been sleeping fort last decade and have not checked out the web when u woke up lately. India is world's 3rd largest economy at this time and Italy was just forced to return its marines for trail in India even when such a lame duck govt like UPA is in power. And EU is debted, aged, divided and living on life support of Germany and France and heavily depends on India to run its factories. If Germany is nuked then I donot think Fracnce or UK would care much......

[pankajs]

What part of "India (Whose economy is not even the size of a small European country like Italy) has not the warships nor the capability to make a dent in the world shipping in the Indian Ocean" do you not understand.

Forget the fact that Indian navy is one of the largest in the world. Forget the fact that apart from Warships other resources can be deployed to choke Malacca strait like Missile boats, Submarines, Helicopter and Aircraft.

Have you looked at the map of the region and India's Military establishment in the area adjacent to Malacca strait? Have you heard of the Great Nicobar island and the Brahmos anti-ship missile? Have you heard of China's ex-president Hu Jintao talk of China’s “Malacca Dilemma”?

Indian Military outposts on Andaman

The distance between Great Nicobar island (D on the Map) and Banada Ache is less than 150 miles. The navigable channel would be even narrower. Did you know that Brahmos missile has achieved pin-point accuracy against ships? Did you know its range is enough to reach Indonesia, right across the channel, when fired from Great Nicobar island? If India wanted to shutdown ALL transit via the Malacca strait nothing more is required! No Warships or Submarines or Missile boats or Heli-borne torpedos or Aircrafts is required to impose a FULL blockade.

Only to implement a partial blockade it would need assets other than the Brahmos and the radar on the island.

If a war breaks out between India and China, India would declare Malacca strait as a no-go zone for Oil Tankers. That in itself would persuade the majority of the tankers, especially foreign owned, to steer away. It would also simplify the task of identifying ships/tankers destined for China. Of the remaining, it shouldn't be too difficult for the Indian Navy to differentiate an Oil tanker from Tug boats, fishing trawlers and goods carrying ships loaded high with containers.

All India would need to do is to deploy a Radar and Sufficient quantity of Brahmos launchers at the southern tip of Great Nicobar island, position one warship with a supplement of a few missile boats bang in the middle of the navigable Channel to the left of the island towards Sri Lanka and have one submarine to the right of the island towards the Malacca strait.

The Warship would interrogate the Oil tankers coming from the west, and any tanker not responding or confirmed as in transit to China would be asked to turn back. If the Oil tanker refuse to obey the missile boats would do the needful. The Brahmos and the Submarine would be backup in case of any tanker managed to evade the first blockade. I am assuming that Warship radar and the island based radar are networked and the information about ships in transit can be passed seamlessly between the two.

Do not talk of Chinese ships operating in the Indian Ocean. A couple of Chinese warships in the Indian Ocean on anti-Piracy patrol is one things. Indian ships too have made port calls in South China Sea. Chinese warships in the Indian ocean during war between the two is another and Indian Navy wouldn't be sitting at the base. In any case, Indian Navy holds the advantage in Indian Ocean as Chinese Navy does in South China sea and that is unlikely to change in the near future. With around 80% of Chinese oil imports having to pass through the Indian Ocean you can now understand the reason for China’s “Malacca Dilemma”.

----------------
A little cleanup

[Nick_S]

Chinese Mirage 2000-5

http://vimeo.com/50311691#

[kish]

Bottomline is this. India (Economy smaller then even Italy) do not have the warships nor the capability to make a dent in the shipping route in the Indian Oceon. Try boarding an European Ship and see if the EU will remain silence. Does not India gets many of its weapons system from EU ?

Ever heard of Malacca strait

Are you really stupid? or Acting like a stupid?

You are good entertainment. Please post often in BR

[kish]

LOL. That is not how it works. All India has to do is to announce that any ship bound for India would have to positively identify itself and its cargo or be sunk. Other ships have to skirt Indian shores by 500 nautical miles. It is the "other ships" that will be targeted as they enter the straits of Malacca. Randomly stopping and boarding ships and sinking or impounding one or two confirmed ships going to China will raise shipping insurance rates sky high and make mommas of single child Chinese sailors on ships to tell them to come home to mummy and a nice bowl of cold noodles. No oil.

So basically you want to disrupt international trade. Fine. But you can't prevent China also sink confirmed ships going to India to retaliate either.

This is funnier than that selamat pagal guy's statement.

Where from middle east to Indian shores?

[kish]

We're talking about oil tankers. In wartime, it is normal practice to intercept enemy war material and a warning will be given: "all ships carrying oil and war materials to the enemy will be sunk". If idiot countries still try to get thru, they will be doing the gene pool a favor.

OK. Now India is going to sink a few Neutral European oil tankers ?

Let me quote you what Neutral Europeans did to the honor and dignity of China.

Chinese dissident plans empty chair protest for Nobel peace prize ceremony

Chair left empty for jailed Chinese Nobel winner

[kish]

What part of "normal practice" do you not understand? The answer is yes - any ships carrying war material to the enemy is not neutral.

What part of "India (Whose economy is not even the size of a small European country like Italy) has not the warships nor the capability to make a dent in the world shipping in the Indian Ocean" do you not understand.

India do not have enough warships to intecept the thousands of ships to determine which is which.
Europe has no interest in stoping shipment to China. They need China.
India would not dare sink a Neutral European oiler and causing the lost of life and an enviroment disaster in the Indian Ocean and possibly ending up in India shores.
India would come under EU and world condemation and even military sanction by EU.
China would just standby and watch with glee.
And what if China (Whose economy is 4 times the size of India) decide to retaliate against India ?

Then what ?

Norway 25th Largest economy in the world publicly humiliated China 2nd largest economy in the world. Just for you dude see and enjoy.

[shiv]

Norway 25th Largest economy in the world publicly humiliated China 2nd largest economy in the world. Just for you dude see and enjoy.

kish, while what you have posted is funny you have fallen for the typical ploy most of these Chinese posters use when they are given information about China that they don't want to hear/want to hide. They bring up some unrelated issue about India and change the subject (They use a torn-shirt open-fly tactic.) What you have done is to respond to that OT post that brings up India. I think it does not matter what they say about India. Just ignore it and keep talking about the Chinese military. If you fall for the "change the subject to India" tactic, you are saving them from answering or facing embarrassing issues about China. Why give such a gift away freely?

[Don]

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... tate-media

Agence France-PresseMarch 25, 2013 02:45

China to buy Russian fighters, subs: state media

China has agreed to buy two dozen fighter jets and four submarines from Russia, state media reported Monday, the country's first large-scale weapons technology purchases from Moscow in a decade.

The agreement to buy the 24 Su-35 fighters and four Lada-class submarines was signed just before President Xi Jinping's weekend visit to Russia, said the People's Daily, the Communist Party organ, citing state television.

The report, which did not give a value for the purchases, said it was the first time in 10 years China had bought "large military technological equipment" from Russia.

The deal comes as Beijing expands its military reach -- it commissioned its first aircraft carrier last year -- and is embroiled in a bitter territorial row with Japan over disputed islands in the East China Sea.

Two of the submarines will be built in Russia, with the other two to be built in China.

"The Su-35 fighters can effectively reduce pressure on China's air defence before Chinese-made stealth fighters come online," the report said.

[China and Russia are expected to co-operate further in developing military technology, the report said, including that for S-400 long-range anti-aircraft missiles, 117S large thrust engines, IL-476 large transport aircraft and IL-78 aerial tankers.

China's defence ministry had no immediate comment on the report.

Xi visited Moscow from Friday to Sunday for talks with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin, his first trip abroad since becoming head of state earlier this month.

The countries signed around 30 energy and other agreements during the visit.

Xi also met Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and became the first foreign leader to visit the Russian armed forces' control centre.

Moscow and Beijing, which were once bitter foes during the Cold War, have strengthened cooperation in recent years to counterbalance what they see as US global dominance.

Earlier this month China announced a further double-digit rise in its defence budget, raising it by 10.7 percent to 720.2 billion yuan ($116.3 billion) in 2013.

[Don]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stephenharn ... ian-pivot/

The Xi-Putin Summit, China-Russian Strategic Partnership, and the Failure of Obama's "Asian Pivot"

A lot of people in the State Department, the White House, and the Pentagon have been squirming in their chairs this weekend, as persons responsible for U.S policy toward Asia, toward Russia, and most importantly toward China, have listen to and read reports of the March 22 Xi Jinping-Vladimir Putin summit in Moscow.

What these persons—if they are intellectually honest—must have been thinking, if not daring to speak, is that what transpired between the leaders of China and Russia was a great setback, if not utter disaster, for U.S. interests. It was brutally plain evidence of the folly of the Obama/Clinton/Panetta “pivot to Asia.” It was evidence of the gross ineptitude of the Obama administration in what many—including former U.S. Assistance Secretary of State for Asian and Pacific Affairs Kurt M. Campbell, reputably the “father of the pivot”—have said is and must be the highest foreign policy priority of the United States: i.e., forging a cooperative and constructive relationship with China.

Observers in Tokyo were, if anything, even closer to panic after the China-Russia summit. The results could not have been worse from Japan’s perspective. That the Xi-Putin summit—the success of which, the Russians remarked, exceeded everyone’s expectations—took place exactly one month after Prime Minister Abe Shinzo’s short, perfunctory, cold, and largely fruitless February 22 audience with President Obama in Washington, added insult to injury.

How the truly historic and important Xi-Putin summit got scheduled at the same time as Obama’s headline grabbing trip to Israel—such that U.S. media hardly noticed or covered it—is an intriguing topic for investigation. Maybe it was a coincidence, but maybe it was not. And if not, it would have been the U.S. side that sought to divert attention elsewhere.

For, to repeat, Xi’s March 22-24 official state visit—his first overseas visit since attaining the Chinese state’s highest office–may very well have marked the beginning of an historic, and regrettable, new and potentially anti-American geopolitical alliance in East Asia.

So what did China’s and Russia’s supreme leaders talk about and what did they do? Essentially they spoke about forming an “all around strategic partnership” in to meld and advance the two countries’ interests. Pointedly, they explicitly affirmed support for each country’s strategic and territorial interests, including claims to disputed territories. For China these include the Diaoyu (Senkaku) islands also claimed by Japan, and islands in the South China Sea claimed by the Philippines, Malaysia and Vietnam. For Russia the territories include the four islands designated by Japan as its “Northern Territories” and by Russia as the Southern Kuriles.

In a joint press conference after their meeting, Xi and Putin emphasized that verdicts and resolutions delivered against the “defeated powers” (read Japan and Germany) in WWII by the victorious powers (read Russia and China) cannot be overturned. What these references suggest is coordination and mutual support between Russia and China in international dispute resolution and particularly in the United Nations where both are permanent members of the U.N. Security Council with veto power.

Chinese and Russian officials signed 30 agreements on cooperation in the areas of energy, trade, technology, and military exchange. All are strategically vital and, more importantly, irreplaceable for both countries. In military technology in particular, Russia has proven an invaluable and indispensable source for China against which the West, led by the U.S., still blocks military technology transfers.

Continued, if not enhanced, Chinese-Russian cooperation in strategic military matters was signaled by Xi’s visit to Russia’s strategic defense command headquarters and “war room,” the first visit allowed for any foreign leader. To ensure that the point was made, both internationally and at home, Chinese media were allowed in to video Xi’s being briefed while looking at computers and giant screens tracking military intelligence targets.

One focus of joint China-Russian military concern, pointedly mentioned in the Xi-Putin press conference, is the U.S.’s building of an intercontinental ballistic missile defense system that could conceivably undermine that current strategic military balance based upon deterrence.

A big part of the China-Russian relationship will be joint development of Russian coal, oil, and gas resources to feed China’s massive current and future energy requirements. The shale gas “revolution” and other trends in the global energy market are threatening Russia’s present markets and revenues. Energy is Russia’s most strategic economic resource. The new China-Russia partnership aims to bind the two countries in the energy field.

The day before Abe called on Obama, on February 21, former Japanese prime minister Mori Yoshiro was received by Putin in the Kremlin. Abe had sent Mori to Moscow to lay the groundwork for a visit by Abe scheduled for April. We do not know what, if anything, Mori had to say to Putin about Abe’s visit to the U.S., or about Abe’s announced goal of strengthening the Japan-U.S. mutual defense “alliance.” We do know that Mori and Putin touched on the “Northern Territories” issue, and that Putin hinted—using the judo term for a “draw” (hikiwake)—at some opening for a settlement if Japan would accept reversion of perhaps two of the four islands. (A Russian proposal to this effect was previously made in the 1950s but rejected by Japan.)

When Abe gets to Moscow he will be aiming, like Xi, to acquire for Japanese interests long term agreements on energy development and purchase. Russia should be motivated, but to the extent resources are limited, we have to wonder whether Chinese-Russian strategic partnership has erected hurdles that will increase costs and limit access for Japan.

What we do know, what the Xi-Putin summit attests, is that U.S. diplomacy over the past four years has failed to effectively engage and motivate China to chart a course that is positive for U.S. interests. Rather, the Obama administration’s overly militarized and threatening “pivot” policy, combined with pronouncements about strengthening U.S. “alliances”—relics of the anti-Soviet Cold War and lately often subtly if not blatantly anti-China—has provided impetus to a Chinese-Russian embrace seemingly intended as a counterpoint to U.S. regional military hegemony and alliances, particularly the alliance between the U.S. and Japan.

History shows that many great geostrategic turning points are hardly recognized as such at the time. Could it be that–as the world was watching Obama in Israel–the Xi-Putin summit in Moscow was one of these points?

[Sagar G]

After weeks of silence.............................this thread is fun again

[amit]

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... tate-media

[member_23370]

So the Joke series of aircrafts and Song/Yuan diesel electric subs are not good enough. I wonder if its the US pivot or Rafale deal than has scared them so much as to run back to Russia. The poor pakis are going to have second thoughts on the chinese subs and J-10's after this.

[svinayak]

So the Joke series of aircrafts and Song/Yuan diesel electric subs are not good enough. I wonder if its the US pivot or Rafale deal than has scared them so much as to run back to Russia. The poor pakis are going to have second thoughts on the chinese subs and J-10's after this.

The Chinese bluff has been called and now they need to prepare with real capability and not bluff.
Only Russia holds the key to the military power of PRC.

The western countries cannot arm PRC since they have deep relations with Japan and also with Asean country. THey would have liked to arm and make money but would dissolve the geopolitical balance they have built for the last 40 years and which has paid rich dividends to them globally.

PRC has to react and make up for its belligerence for arming Pakistan with nukes. They cannot use proxies anymore and now they have use their own troops.
India by giving a notice to China has changed the order in Asia and also worldwide.

[Suraj]

Moderator's Node
Selamat Pagi: You have been summarily banned for one month. Your post contents were deleted the first time around and you were issued a warning for trolling. You responded by re-editing and writing the same contents all over again, while adding more. Clearly you do not understand the meaning of your first warning. I hope the ban makes the message clearer - you do NOT persist with trolling once you've been warned for it, and specifically do not attempt to continue an argument in such circumstances.

[ashi]

So the Joke series of aircrafts and Song/Yuan diesel electric subs are not good enough. I wonder if its the US pivot or Rafale deal than has scared them so much as to run back to Russia. The poor pakis are going to have second thoughts on the chinese subs and J-10's after this.

China does not match up to US until J-20 joins, but with current J-10 and J-11B we have more than enough to handle India which 75% of weapons are imported.

[ashi]

So basically you want to disrupt international trade. Fine. But you can't prevent China also sink confirmed ships going to India to retaliate either.

Not me. It will be China at war and that will affect international trade. That is how it will work if the Indian ocean is made a war zone. Did you seriously believe that India is going to sink and let China get her supplies? Those mothers of single Han sons will regret having voted the Communist party into power forever. Mommas little boys need to make sure they say a real proper goodbye to their mothers. You gonna have an awful lot of Chinese people with no children at all. That one child policy will really show itself up in a war. Chang, Wong, Ling, Hu, Chen, Wu - the whole lot buried at sea.

If any one choking our life line you bet every Hu and Wong will support CCP ...

[svinayak]

China & India on collision course as oil & gas tension mounts

The Indian navy is prepared to deploy vessels to the South China Sea to protect India's oil interests there, the navy chief said on Monday amid growing international fears over the potential for naval clashes in the disputed region.

India has sparred diplomatically with China in the past over its gas and oil exploration block off the coast of Vietnam. China claims virtually the entire mineral-rich South China Sea and has stepped up its military presence there. Other nations such as Vietnam, Philippines and Malaysia have competing claims.

Indian state-run explorer Oil and Natural Gas Corp (ONGC) has a stake in a gas field in the Nam Con Son basin, off Vietnam's south coast.

Indian Navy Chief Admiral D.K Joshi said while India was not a claimant in the dispute over territorial rights in the South China Sea, it was prepared to act, if necessary, to protect its maritime and economic interests in the region.

"When the requirement is there, for example, in situations where our country's interests are involved, for example ONGC ... we will be required to go there and we are prepared for that," Joshi told a news conference.

"Now, are we preparing for it? Are we having exercises of that nature? The short answer is yes," he said.

He described the modernization of China's navy as "truly impressive" and acknowledged that it was a source of major concern for India.

Any display of naval assertiveness by India in the South China Sea would likely fuel concern that the navies of the two rapidly growing Asian giants could be on a collision course as they seek to protect trade routes and lock in the supply of coal, minerals and other raw material from foreign sources.

"It is one of the most important international waterways and freedom of navigation there is an issue of utmost concern to India because a large portion of India's trade is through the South China Sea," said Brahma Chellaney, analyst at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.

Chellaney, however, played down Joshi's comments, saying the Indian navy's focus would remain on the Indian Ocean, which the Asian nation views as its strategic backyard.

[amit]

If any one choking our life line you bet every Hu and Wong will support CCP ...

Ashi,

I don't know who you are or how high up you are in the 50 cents per post hierarchy but if your posts are a barometer on the level of understanding of what India will do if it's provoked, then China is in for some real tough times.

The point is, India will never start a war with China. If at all there's a war then it will be one which is started by a beleaguered CCP. If that happens, just as you think every Hu and Wong will support the CCP, every Indian will close ranks and support the government in power.

I made a comment to one of your fellow 50 cent-ers in the technology forum. I think it's relevant here:

Regarding India, you've been a member of this forum for long enough to know that we don't hide the country's faults and in fact we are mercilessly critical of various issues here. Just go ahead and explore the forum to reaffirm this belief.

I know that presents a dilemma to folks like you who come from authoritarian societies. You automatically equate such criticism with hatred for India and the system it represents. And that's why you want to shock and awe us with the "great progress" being made by the Middle Kingdom.

Cognitive dissonance sets in when, instead of being properly awed and shocked we turn around and laugh at your face and point out that the emperor is naked. That usually puts off most drones after sometime - they simply can't handle this apparent non linear behaviour and drop out of circulation...

What to do, we are like that onlee. And you know what, we don't want to be anything else.

Believe me, if war breaks out with China, all the fighting and criticism that you see here - which is a microcosm of how it is in the country - will evaporate and the whole country will be one under whatever government that may be in power. Do you honestly have the confidence that the same will be the case in China.

Sure, if there's a war with China, India will be hurt badly but so will China be. If you want to go argue that China will be less hurt than India go right ahead. But after millions of deaths on both sides - nuclear is the only way China can break a quarantine on Malacca Straits imposed from the Andaman and Nicobar Islands - it's debatable who will be less hurt.

However, one point to note, it's here that China's one-child policy will come back to haunt it. India's demographics are far better and so it would have a much better chance of recovering than China - and that's what Shiv implied in his post.

Do you think your big bosses in CCP do not understand that? If they don't then they have no business being there. I can wager, that apart from a lot of saber rattling and getting its taller than mountains and deeper than oceans w**ore to do its dirty work, China is just a toothless dragon when it come to India.

[ashi]

Ashi,

I don't know who you are or how high up you are in the 50 cents per post hierarchy but if your posts are a barometer on the level of understanding of what India will do if it's provoked, then China is in for some real tough times.

The point is, India will never start a war with China. If at all there's a war then it will be one which is started by a beleaguered CCP. If that happens, just as you think every Hu and Wong will support the CCP, every Indian will close ranks and support the government in power.

I made a comment to one of your fellow 50 cent-ers in the technology forum. I think it's relevant here:

Regarding India, you've been a member of this forum for long enough to know that we don't hide the country's faults and in fact we are mercilessly critical of various issues here. Just go ahead and explore the forum to reaffirm this belief.

I know that presents a dilemma to folks like you who come from authoritarian societies. You automatically equate such criticism with hatred for India and the system it represents. And that's why you want to shock and awe us with the "great progress" being made by the Middle Kingdom.

Cognitive dissonance sets in when, instead of being properly awed and shocked we turn around and laugh at your face and point out that the emperor is naked. That usually puts off most drones after sometime - they simply can't handle this apparent non linear behaviour and drop out of circulation...

What to do, we are like that onlee. And you know what, we don't want to be anything else.

Believe me, if war breaks out with China, all the fighting and criticism that you see here - which is a microcosm of how it is in the country - will evaporate and the whole country will be one under whatever government that may be in power. Do you honestly have the confidence that the same will be the case in China.

Sure, if there's a war with China, India will be hurt badly but so will China be. If you want to go argue that China will be less hurt than India go right ahead. But after millions of deaths on both sides - nuclear is the only way China can break a quarantine on Malacca Straits imposed from the Andaman and Nicobar Islands - it's debatable who will be less hurt.

However, one point to note, it's here that China's one-child policy will come back to haunt it. India's demographics are far better and so it would have a much better chance of recovering than China - and that's what Shiv implied in his post.

Do you think your big bosses in CCP do not understand that? If they don't then they have no business being there. I can wager, that apart from a lot of saber rattling and getting its taller than mountains and deeper than oceans w**ore to do its dirty work, China is just a toothless dragon when it come to India.

Hi Amit, I don't know how high up you are in the troll ranking but please note that this is a military thread. Please bring your political mumble jumble to the political threads. Thanks in advance!

[amit]

Hi Amit, I don't know how high up you are in the troll ranking but please note that this is a military thread. Please bring your political mumble jumble to the political threads. Thanks in advance!

Mumble jumble indeed. I see my point hit home. Despite all the supar dopar J-20s and other made in China "high tech" stuff, the PLA still has no answer to a situation where its testimonials get squeezed in the Indian Ocean. Can't open the clamps with conventional power and too scared of a nuclear war.

And "friendly" neighbours like Vietnam and Japan would be watching events with a lot of interest.

Very few policies choices. Life's such a baitch.

[subhamoy.das]

So the Joke series of aircrafts and Song/Yuan diesel electric subs are not good enough. I wonder if its the US pivot or Rafale deal than has scared them so much as to run back to Russia. The poor pakis are going to have second thoughts on the chinese subs and J-10's after this.

China does not match up to US until J-20 joins, but with current J-10 and J-11B we have more than enough to handle India which 75% of weapons are imported.

Import content has come down to 40% level today and falling fast due corruption in procurement and long delays and very bad after sales support, the pull of market economics and maturing of Indian mil manufacturing capability. On other hand CHINA has 75% of its items stolen so does that mean we should be in even better shape, as per your logic, to take care of u, since stealing is worse than importing....?

The question is : does CHINA really have enough to deal with its foes. Actions does not signal that. U are now partnering with the only major mil manufacturer in the world and also your foe, all others are your foes, who can open its kimono for you, that is Russia. It is really a desperate sitution for both doing "muh me ram nam bagal be churi", and Indic wise saying means - "friends saying hello but holding knife in their back". So now why is this happening? One does not have money but has oil and mil wdigest and the other has money but no oil and NO MIL WIDGETS and EN-CIRCLED by powerful MIL widgets.

[Austin]

Hu visited the Center Operations Directorate Forces

Operational control center Forces equipped with various software and hardware system that provides monitoring of print and electronic media, view and record up to a thousand channels of satellite and terrestrial television with the real time processing and translation of seven languages.

The Center organized alert duty shift (25). It includes units of the strategic nuclear forces, the Army, Navy, Air Force and aerospace defense. Crew on duty continuously monitor the environment of the sea, land and air and space. For the center is fitted with software and hardware display information about the situation and the state of reactionary forces.

[Khalsa]

So the Joke series of aircrafts and Song/Yuan diesel electric subs are not good enough. I wonder if its the US pivot or Rafale deal than has scared them so much as to run back to Russia. The poor pakis are going to have second thoughts on the chinese subs and J-10's after this.

China does not match up to US until J-20 joins, but with current J-10 and J-11B we have more than enough to handle India which 75% of weapons are imported.

When you impo da technology in China
You na Pay Da Money
So they gonna send your brother to Jail
You Bad boy ....

Someone gonna go to Jail ... REAL BAD !!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21935028

Ni Haooo

[kish]

China does not match up to US until J-20 joins, but with current J-10 and J-11B we have more than enough to handle India which 75% of weapons are imported.

When you impo da technology in China
You na Pay Da Money
So they gonna send your brother to Jail
You Bad boy ....

Someone gonna go to Jail ... REAL BAD !!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21935028

Ni Haooo

They call it "reverse engineering" . It isn't stealing!

Next time if you find any article mentioning "chinese got caught stealing". Say it as "Chinese got arrested for reverse engineering"

The world is little unfair on chinese, they get frequently arrested world over for "reverse engineering"

[VinodTK]

India-China: The real military equation

China may be ahead in land power but a confrontation involving air and sea power would be a different matter altogether
Leave aside economic growth parameters and astounding leaps in infrastructure that only increase the disparity between India and China with every passing day, the story is repeated about the increasing gap between the military capabilities of the two countries. China's expenditure on defence is three times ours - if we accept disclosed figures - and could actually be more. It has improved its India's border infrastructure considerably, thereby enabling quick mobilisation and redeployment of troops. China's land forces mustered on the border outnumber those of India, whose own quite dismal efforts in improving infrastructure inhibit mobilisation and effective conduct of operations. Modernisation of its air and naval power are key ingredients of China's objective to be able to fight "high technology limited wars", and steady progress is apparently being made in both these sectors. An old Soviet aircraft carrier, initially bought by the Chinese for conversion to a recreational platform, has now been refurbished as a full-fledged aircraft carrying ship - no small achievement - and more such platforms can be expected to be built locally in the years to come. China has realised that credible distant operations are impossible without access to organic air support and surveillance. Newer types of warships, surface and underwater, are being built. Reportedly, a Stealth fighter has also been developed.

India, on the other hand, is languishing - unable either to build or to develop, and indeed, even to buy, as most recently seen in the chopper deal. Enough money is not being provided, say some; what is provided is not being spent, say others. Insufficient focus on indigenisation is given as one reason for this state of affairs - as if that is something that can be achieved with simple changes of policy. The number of countries that can build their own tanks, guns, planes, ships and submarines and fit them with their own weapons and sensors can be counted on the fingertips. The US, the UK, France, Russia, Italy, Germany and Japan have not been in this business for just decades - they have been turning out major warships for more than 100 years.

The inability to bring in the private sector as a major supplier of defence equipment is another drum that gets beaten with increasing regularity - as if that route would quickly resolve the difficulties. This ignores the fact that some of the most common technologies - used in even ordinary consumer electronics - still have to be imported. Military technologies are several cuts above and manufacturing is not India's strongest suit. How and why China has been able to do so much better is something that merits separate discussion, but the present reality is that, in terms of its military capabilities, India is falling way behind China.

Quite clearly, in terms of land power, the Chinese are ahead of us not just in numbers, but in their ability to move forces quickly and in the required numbers, both force multipliers. That said, this does not immediately make our cause a lost one. We are not about to see a war being fought a la World War II in which the fight will go on until one side is, ultimately, forced to surrender. What is more germane is whether, in a limited conflict, like the one in Kargil, we have the capability to inflict a degree of punishment that the adversary might not find acceptable - militarily and politically. In 1978, Vietnam achieved this objective against the invading Chinese army easily, despite being seriously outnumbered and outgunned. The moot question, therefore, is whether we are equipped and able to do something similar or not. Frankly, not even the most cynical among our military will doubt the Indian Army's ability to do much more to the adversary than what Vietnam could do more than three decades ago. Our capabilities may not deter in the absolute sense, but are sufficient to dissuade the Chinese.

In the air, the situation is different. The Chinese have many more aircraft, but a good number are relatively old and unsuited to today's war fighting. Even though they have lengthened and strengthened airfields in the Tibetan plateau, Chinese aircraft are more constrained in their operating parameters, such as endurance and weapon loads, compared to ours operating from airfields located at sea level. So, if it comes to a fight in the air, do not expect the Chinese air force to have a free ride. On the contrary, India has enough in its inventory to give the Chinese a run for their money, and more. Despite delays in inducting more fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force, in its Sukhois, MIG-29s and Mirages has a quite potent punch. In short, in air power, the equation is pretty even.

At sea, the equation is decidedly tilted towards us. In the Indian Ocean region, India has advantages that the Chinese will be hard put to match. Availability of organic air power through dozens of airfields strung across the Indian coast and island territories enable not just credible operating capability across the large water space, but also surveillance over critical energy and shipping routes. Not only do the Chinese have limited resources to facilitate credible operations, their access to the Indian Ocean is constrained by the narrow channels of the South East Asian archipelago. These potential vulnerabilities in this maritime theatre must weigh heavily in Beijing.

This brings us to the nature of a possible military conflict. A skirmish at a couple of places on the land border cannot be ruled out and will soon be controlled, but anything more substantive will almost certainly bring air and sea power into play. China has an exposed energy lifeline across the Indian Ocean that it will find difficult to safeguard in the face of opposition. This serious vulnerability at sea cannot be kept out of the calculations that it will, inevitably, have to make, should it decide to take the military option.

In short, there is power asymmetry on land to our disadvantage, reasonable equality in the air and credible advantages in our favour at sea. It is this totality of the military interface that any adversary has to consider. The balance is not as lopsided as many of our people would have us believe, but it could become that if we are not careful. We must look at the military equations in their totality - and not just those limited to the land border - and develop our capabilities accordingly. Military planners are not concerned with what potential adversaries may or may not do; their task only is to ensure that the equation is not allowed to alter to our disadvantage. This calls for calm and continuing analysis - not alarm.

[NRao]

China, even with the J series, will be very hard pressed to do anything. It is only in news papers that they can and will make noise.

Yes the latest Sino-Russian happening are events that are not needed, but, on the flip side they polarize across the world and certainly in the immediate area. Not something China wants either. Conflict, if it occurs, can only hurt China. I can see Russia sitting in the background, selling more military ware and making a lot of noise. Fat chance they will engage in any serious conflict.