Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[vic]

Why not use "more" NAMICA in Leh, Ladakh, after all even Nag missile will work better in cold climate. Army is clamoring for special imports for special terrain, what about NAMICA + Nag combo then? Why is Army not demanding immediate production and induction of NAMICA for Chinese border?

[Sanku]

Sanku>>The primary issue in holding up development of Arjun is its simple unavailability at the right time.

If enough Arjun's were available, looking at bridges actively made sense. Right now its cart before the horse.

^
Step 1: Don't place an order.
Step 2: Claim the system is not in service.
Step 3: Turn around and buy a "comparable" system from Mader Roos.
Step 4: Deny Step 2 was because of Step 1.

As shown multiple times before. Step 1 itself is incorrectly informed.

Why dont people accept what is? Much easier that way.

[Sanku]

"rohitvats">>However, there is a small catch in the above numbers as well - the cost of Active Protection System was budgeted separately. If you add the above, the per unit cost of the system will rise further.

IIRC the Shotra/Trophy is still not fitted in right? Same for both Arjun and T 90 (although expression of interests had gone out)

Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes.

But INR 2,500 Crores was budgeted for it separately; and this was in 2009-2011 time-frame. God knows what the cost is now.[/quote]

But the point remains, since it is absent in both our MBTs, this would not impact the price differential between them? Would you agree? They are supposed to be on both now, right?

[manum]

Now the question to the civil engineer types. What does it take to build a MLC 70 class road, where a MLC 50 Class road already exists

^^^^http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1436087


link to my old post on bridges capacity...

Wherever there are tracked vehicles like Tanks expected the bylaw is to make load bearing capacity of 70 ton ...


Its just that the Gap between two 70T tanks have be of minimum distance specified so the point load is distributed evenly...

[Sanku]

Personally speaking I was satisfied with i saw VKS speak on this matter ,

What is the status on armour? Is T-90s the MBT now? What is being done about the large numbers of T-72 tanks which lack a night fighting capability? How many Arjun regiment will the army have, and are there plans to upgrade Arjun tanks?

VKS: By terming the T-90 tank as the main battle tank (MBT), the Indian Army implies that this tank is the future mainstay of the Indian Army, and is indicative of the volumes of this tank comprising the backbone of the mechanised forces. T-90 is a state of the art and highly capable weapon system, capable of survival in the most challenging environments.

The Indian Army has already addressed the issue of night blindness of T-72 tanks. A large number of tanks are now night-enabled. Measures are already in place to ensure speedy night enablement of the balance numbers. With this, we have ensured that the erstwhile issue of night blindness is addressed holistically, with our entire tank fleet capable of operations at night.

As far as Arjun tank is concerned, the Indian Army is looking at inducting a few additional numbers of MBT Arjun regiments in the future. The tank finally produced by DRDO is quite competitive and has come a long way. Upgradations and improvements to the MBT Arjun as a Mark- II version are underway. On successful completion of these improvements, the tank will meet the requirements of the Indian Army.

That is very very well said. I wish the people trolling the thread actually cared to read such material rather than forming unsustainable PoVs

[nelson]

<snip>
Now, what is per unit holding of AM-50? If one averages out equipment across various units (some would hold more, other less), can we assume 15 units per regiment? And this would give a total of 345 units. Let us be further charitable and jack this up to 400 units.

Let us see the cost part - The entire Sarvatra set is supposed to cost INR 200 Million i.e. INR 20 Crore per set (which comprises the 5 vehicles and associated paraphernalia). From what I know, 8 AM-50 units can be joined together to form a single bridge. Let us assume this forms ONE Set of AM-50 and costs the same as Sarvatra Set.

What is cost of 400/8 = 50 such units? @ INR 20 Crore per set, this amounts to INR 1,000 Crore or USD 200 Million (xchange rate of 1:50)

Meanwhile, Indian Army has decided to spend in excess of INR 20,000 crores in inducting 2,000 odd T-90 tanks. And this is cost as of today which will further rise.

Classic case of "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" ...!!!

Forget AM-50 (MLC 50) because it can not take Arjun. One set of Sarvatra(5 x veh+ 5xbridge ) cost 22 crores. Going with the quantity that you have worked out, it should be 400/5 * 22 = 1760 crores.

The bridging equipment you listed here is only a fraction of what is required. I would cut the nose, only if Arjuns came for free. else whatever the cost of new bridging equipment, would be over and above the cost of Arjun.

Apart from this, Sarvatra was available for production only in 2008. And the decision for the MBT of IA till end of XII five year plan was taken in 2001-02.

[manum]

That is very very well said. I wish the people trolling the thread actually cared to read such material rather than forming unsustainable PoVs

Yeah...Lets find some interview of former IAF chief Tyagi as well...don't insult our inteligence, even if somebodies is mutilated enough of twisting and bending...

[Sanku]

The simplest test will be have a comparative trial, with a Mk 1 Arjun and see, who wins. That ought to settle the matter. T90 won the last trial by the virtue of the Arjun being DQd for Killing a target while on the move. When the ROE stated the said target had to be engaged while standing still.

Today T 90 will, T 90 would be able to fire at Arjun from further (Invar), all other things being same. Its that simple. T 90 would engage Arjun before it can get its main tank to bear.

However a tank vs another tank battle is almost never always fought. A tank always fights in a mixed enviorments, where supporting infantry, man portable ATGMs, IFV with ATGMs, Namica like vehicles. Tank traps (mines, blocks), built up area -- ALL play a role.

The issue is mixing the tank use well with the above factors.

[Sanku]

That is very very well said. I wish the people trolling the thread actually cared to read such material rather than forming unsustainable PoVs

Yeah...Lets find some interview of former IAF chief Tyagi as well...don't insult our inteligence, even if somebodies is mutilated enough of twisting and bending...

So VKS == Tyagi?

Wow.

[manum]

It just takes one scam to send a holy cow to slaughter....

what I said is, you want to settle matter on words of one person because it suits you, but i am skeptical...as simple as that...

[rohitvats]

Forget AM-50 (MLC 50) because it can not take Arjun. One set of Sarvatra(5 x veh+ 5xbridge ) cost 22 crores. Going with the quantity that you have worked out, it should be 400/5 * 22 = 1760 crores.The bridging equipment you listed here is only a fraction of what is required. I would cut the nose, only if Arjuns came for free. else whatever the cost of new bridging equipment, would be over and above the cost of Arjun. Apart from this, Sarvatra was available for production only in 2008. And the decision for the MBT of IA till end of XII five year plan was taken in 2001-02.

Well, you've actually brought out the absurdity of the bridging equipment argument much better.

So, because IA wanted to save INR 1,760 crores it decided to invest INR 20,000+ crores in the T-90 programme? And you know what is more funny - that Sarvatra will still replace AM-50 equipment in IA. Now, should I add this additional INR 1,800 Crores to the cost of T-90 programme?

Do you realize the sheer idiotic nature of the statement made by you above?

As for what is required in terms of bridging equipment - I am taking of what is available. As of now.

It is you who has been haranguing about the lack of MLC-70 class bridge and hence, inability of army to induct Arjuns on large scale. This inability (in terms of number of bridging equipment) is what has existed in the past. And if IA was serious about inducting Arjun, it could have made a case of imports of MLC-70 bridging equipment.

But it never did - even when Sarvatra was delayed in terms of induction. Goes to show the seriousness to begin with about the Arjun programme.

Added Later: The addition of bridging equipment - and expenditure thereon - would have happened in phases. If IA had placed orders for Arjun Mk1 in any substantial numbers in 2006, IA would have still been in the process of inducting Arjun Mk1 and associated bridging equipment. So, even expenditure wise, the ~2,000 odd crores required for Sarvatra type of MLC-70 bridging equipment would have been over many years.

[Yagnasri]

IA dont want to listen anything in the matter. The argument being correct or not is immeterial. Saint Antony does nothing. So what is the use of posting all these things. Take permission for export of Arjun and send them to nations like Izrail or Viathnam etc which I am sure need some good systems aginst the increasingly hostile lizard.

[Pratyush]

The simplest test will be have a comparative trial, with a Mk 1 Arjun and see, who wins. That ought to settle the matter. T90 won the last trial by the virtue of the Arjun being DQd for Killing a target while on the move. When the ROE stated the said target had to be engaged while standing still.

Today T 90 will, T 90 would be able to fire at Arjun from further (Invar), all other things being same. Its that simple. T 90 would engage Arjun before it can get its main tank to bear.

However a tank vs another tank battle is almost never always fought. A tank always fights in a mixed enviorments, where supporting infantry, man portable ATGMs, IFV with ATGMs, Namica like vehicles. Tank traps (mines, blocks), built up area -- ALL play a role.

The issue is mixing the tank use well with the above factors.

Boss, a comparative trial doesn't mean that the tanks fire at each other in a duel and see who wins. It means a side by side compassion. With both the tanks tested for their ability to resolve a specific set of tests and the time taken to resolve it. It could be something as simple as a 10 Km long sprint, while having a specific set of targets to kill.

It will be a test of both the tank as well as the crew.

[pralay]

The simplest test will be have a comparative trial, with a Mk 1 Arjun and see, who wins. That ought to settle the matter. T90 won the last trial by the virtue of the Arjun being DQd for Killing a target while on the move. When the ROE stated the said target had to be engaged while standing still.

Today T 90 will, T 90 would be able to fire at Arjun from further (Invar), all other things being same. Its that simple. T 90 would engage Arjun before it can get its main tank to bear..

Dear Dolly-Day-Dream,
Max Range of 3UBK-INVAR is 5km
and for LAHAT it is 8km (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAHAT) it was tested on Arjun in 2005 so all things are same (http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... k-missile/ ).

[Sanku]

Boss, a comparative trial doesn't mean that the tanks fire at each other in a duel and see who wins. It means a side by side compassion. With both the tanks tested for their ability to resolve a specific set of tests and the time taken to resolve it. It could be something as simple as a 10 Km long sprint, while having a specific set of targets to kill.

It will be a test of both the tank as well as the crew.

Now you have added two things
1) A very subjective test course, which of course can be rigged in favor of T 90 according to you.
2) Brought in subjectivity of a crew.

So you have already added two subjectivity. So my point of a real world being very subjective comes forth the minute you take away your one-tank vs one-tank.

IA already is doing comparative trials, the results are as stated by Gen VKS.

[Sanku]

Dear Dolly-Day-Dream,
Max Range of 3UBK-INVAR is 5km
and for LAHAT it is 8km (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAHAT) it was tested on Arjun in 2005 so all things are same (http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... k-missile/ ).

Sigh,,, this is the problem of having an opinion at any cost.

LAHAT was tested on Arjun in 2005. The tests are not complete yet. Its performance is right now unknown.

It is not in production on Mk I.

Let it be deployed, be user tried and then we will see.

[nelson]

Forget AM-50 (MLC 50) because it can not take Arjun. One set of Sarvatra(5 x veh+ 5xbridge ) cost 22 crores. Going with the quantity that you have worked out, it should be 400/5 * 22 = 1760 crores.The bridging equipment you listed here is only a fraction of what is required. I would cut the nose, only if Arjuns came for free. else whatever the cost of new bridging equipment, would be over and above the cost of Arjun. Apart from this, Sarvatra was available for production only in 2008. And the decision for the MBT of IA till end of XII five year plan was taken in 2001-02.

Well, you've actually brought out the absurdity of the bridging equipment argument much better.

So, because IA wanted to save INR 1,760 crores it decided to invest INR 20,000+ crores in the T-90 programme? And you know what is more funny - that Sarvatra will still replace AM-50 equipment in IA. Now, should I add this additional INR 1,800 Crores to the cost of T-90 programme?

Do you realize the sheer idiotic nature of the statement made by you above?

As for what is required in terms of bridging equipment - I am taking of what is available. As of now.

It is you who has been haranguing about the lack of MLC-70 class bridge and hence, inability of army to induct Arjuns on large scale. This inability (in terms of number of bridging equipment) is what has existed in the past. And if IA was serious about inducting Arjun, it could have made a case of imports of MLC-70 bridging equipment.

But it never did - even when Sarvatra was delayed in terms of induction. Goes to show the seriousness to begin with about the Arjun programme.

Added Later: The addition of bridging equipment - and expenditure thereon - would have happened in phases. If IA had placed orders for Arjun Mk1 in any substantial numbers in 2006, IA would have still been in the process of inducting Arjun Mk1 and associated bridging equipment. So, even expenditure wise, the ~2,000 odd crores required for Sarvatra type of MLC-70 bridging equipment would have been over many years.

As you didn't catch the word in spite of the the emphasis, i repeat that 'the bridging equipment you listed here is only a fraction of what is required'. This has been a factor in deciding, in 2001 what the MBT of IA for next twenty years(from 2001) will be (XII plan ends in 2017). I have thought over what i wrote in that post and it is fine by me.

http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2 ... 00225.html

19th December, 2002
LOK SABHA

With the induction of 124 fully formed imported tanks and production of 186 tanks through Semi Knocked Down and Completely Knocked Down kits, followed by indigenous production of 1000 tanks, T-90 is expected to be the Main Battle Tank (MBT) of the Army till the end of XII plan. An indent has also been placed for 124 MBT Arjun tanks for raising one regiment each during the X & XI plan periods.

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri George Fernandes in a written reply to Shri Simranjit Singh Mann in Lok Sabha today.

[Sanku]

It just takes one scam to send a holy cow to slaughter....

what I said is, you want to settle matter on words of one person because it suits you, but i am skeptical...as simple as that...

If one scam is all it takes then by extension DRDO is full of thieves and all Indians are corrupt and so are you and me. Lets disband the country and the forum since its all hawa anyway.

The CAS, one of the finest and with an impeccable reputation and track record of propriety and competence makes a statement and you dont wish to accept that?

So we should listen to who according to you?

Being skeptical is fine, being in denial is another.

[Sanku]

IA dont want to listen anything in the matter. The argument being correct or not is immeterial. Saint Antony does nothing. So what is the use of posting all these things. Take permission for export of Arjun and send them to nations like Izrail or Viathnam etc which I am sure need some good systems aginst the increasingly hostile lizard.

Let them meet the orders they have first perhaps? (Israel? They already have their own very capable tanks) Exporting to Vietnam would be a good idea once Indian orders are met or are being met at a successful rate.

So far Avadi's production has always lagged behind IAs requirement, for any tank, for any purpose, including T 72 overhauls.

[rohitvats]

As you didn't catch the word in spite of the the emphasis, i repeat that 'the bridging equipment you listed here is only a fraction of what is required'. This has been a factor in deciding, in 2001 what the MBT of IA for next twenty years(from 2001) will be (XII plan ends in 2017). I have thought over what i wrote in that post and it is fine by me.

Sigh! Before we proceed further, can you please answer one simple question:

- is the bridging equipment assumed by me - fraction of what is held (even as of now) or fraction of what is ideally required?

[nelson]

Both, it is a fraction of what is held(even as of now) and thereby an even smaller fraction what is ideally required. I am not saying in equal quantities of AM-50, but of all assorted bridging equipment.

[manum]

It just takes one scam to send a holy cow to slaughter....

what I said is, you want to settle matter on words of one person because it suits you, but i am skeptical...as simple as that...

If one scam is all it takes then by extension DRDO is full of thieves and all Indians are corrupt and so are you and me. Lets disband the country and the forum since its all hawa anyway.

The CAS, one of the finest and with an impeccable reputation and track record of propriety and competence makes a statement and you dont wish to accept that?

So we should listen to who according to you?

Being skeptical is fine, being in denial is another.

What should I expect to hear from Army chief, that Arjun is a great tank better than the current mainstay T90...but for inertial reasons they are not being encouraged?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/general-sing ... 782-3.html

Karan Thapar: Let's come to the issue that the Army Chief raised about India's defence unpreparedness. In the letter he wrote to the Prime Minister which was leaked, he says that air defences are 97 per cent obsolete, he says that the tank fleet is devoid of critical ammunition, he says the state of the major fighting arms is alarming. Is the UPA government guilty of neglecting India's defence preparedness?

Brajesh Mishra: Well there is a lot of exaggeration on what the Army Chief has said in his letter to the Prime Minister. We are weak militarily, but not that kind of weakness that he is talking about, and if you have been watching all these shows in where Generals have been coming and talking, hardly any General has supported this contention on this thing. Now if the Prime Minister was convinced that this is the case, get the letter and talk to the Defence Minister. And say what action we are we going to take, whether they are doing it now, I don't know. I said this before also, probably it is going to be repetition for your audience, the real problem is that neither the political leadership nor the service leadership, the three chiefs, have acted in a manner to secure the country from external aggression. They have not. Thirty years have passed after the last war but in these 30 years they have not taken any action to get more material. You order one thing - tested in the sand, height, snow and in naval and other things - and these tests you go on for four or five years and by the time all things are obsolete, there is nothing left. So these antiquated procedures of 19th century when Great Britain was the lord of world, they are not there for now.

Karan Thapar: You are saying something very important. You are saying the Army itself, the services themselves are guilty of going by outdated testing procedure, which are prolonged and delaying and just waste time.
Brajesh Mishra: Antiquated procedures of 19th century.

I am just putting tit for tat, I don't want it to be individual centric, all I am trying to tell is the holy cow can be mad cow as well...may be not...but I don't believe in my ears, but on my eyes...

[Sanku]

What should I expect to hear from Army chief, that Arjun is a great tank better than the current mainstay T90...but for inertial reasons they are not being encouraged?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/general-sing ... 782-3.html

Okay wonderful. VKS is the worst army chief so far, because he did not let the anti India looters do a Tatra?

RohitVats, any comments? Brajesh Mishra over VKS whose word do you chose?

[manum]

Why you calling Rohitvats...

I just did the same trick...proved a person is mad for another...both respectable in their own right...This is your game, right?

[SaiK]

For the mountain photos posted above, even though the surrounding terrain looks impossible for any best mountain tank available to mankind, even a normal 4x4 off road can ply on the non-paved paths. Once a path is created, even humans can walk with no stones turned.

The very same mountains and path will be traversed by T80us, M1As, etc. If they all can do it, Arjun can do it too, is my thought, because it has proven that it has the best least ground pressure .8kg/sq.m. beside high maneuverability, super suspension, and near perfect protection for 4 Jawans.

[rohitvats]

Both, it is a fraction of what is held(even as of now) and thereby an even smaller fraction what is ideally required. I am not saying in equal quantities of AM-50, but of all assorted bridging equipment.

Changing the goal post here, are we?

First, it was about lack of MLC-70 class bridges and now, it is about all the bridging equipment in the IA? As if apart from AM-50, other bridging equipment used to assist armored columns is also tuned only to support T-90 type of tanks. Is that the case?

The entire debate has centered on AM-50 not being able to carry Arjun and cost associated with replacing this equipment piece-by-piece with MLC-70 bridge laying system. And how this investment in MLC-70 bridge system could have facilitated the induction of Arjun - if the argument 'NO MLC-70 Bridge System is equal to NO Arjun induction' is correct in the first place. Which it is not.

And now, you are talking about 'assorted bridging' equipment? I especially mentioned 400 units of AM-50...chances are IA has less than the numbers assumed for this specific system. Overall, it might well have more bridging equipment.

Coming to the equipment required - you do realize that Sarvatra is going to replace these systems in IA? So, why have MLC-70 equipment when you don't have Arjuns to cross over them? Could it be that requirement for MLC-70 Bridge system rests on its own merit and this AM-50 argument is nothing but another bogey?

[SaiK]

Didn't someone post a flying tank sometime back? Future GSQRs will be based on that design, but the requirements are scoped only for home grown products. Actually, in reality we derive the requirements based on what is available in the international market, more precisely Russia. What is the problem in changing this practice?

These requirements needs to be put in cold storage, as they are not drafted based on actuality rather what is scoped by political-economical and business corruption constraints. This is a tough mindset question, for all indics.. even a small technology advancement, I failed enhance the life of many, and people revert back to old practices, as they want some event to make it realize a change is needed. The only other option, I have is a war to prove things.

Even the best tanks have graduated.. Arjun will graduate to the next version only based on the previous version use. It is a progression well deserved for our hard working low paid engineers., if not on better terms, but on equal terms with other tanks IA is planning to induct.

[nelson]

Both, it is a fraction of what is held(even as of now) and thereby an even smaller fraction what is ideally required. I am not saying in equal quantities of AM-50, but of all assorted bridging equipment.

Changing the goal post here, are we?

First, it was about lack of MLC-70 class bridges and now, it is about all the bridging equipment in the IA? As if apart from AM-50, other bridging equipment used to assist armored columns is also tuned only to support T-90 type of tanks. Is that the case?
The entire debate has centered on AM-50 not being able to carry Arjun and cost associated with replacing this equipment piece-by-piece with MLC-70 bridge laying system. And how this investment in MLC-70 bridge system could have facilitated the induction of Arjun - if the argument 'NO MLC-70 Bridge System is equal to NO Arjun induction' is correct in the first place. Which it is not.

I have already requested you to forget AM-50. There was no discussion centered on AM-50. NRao posted a video stating that AM-50 was MLC 70. I corrected it.

There has never been 'NO MLC-70 Bridge System is equal to NO Arjun induction' argument from my side. I have maintained previously and still do, that the decision of IA to restrict Arjun to one sector of operations, has been taken while considering the weight of Arjun and the requirement that large-scale induction of Arjuns in other sectors would entail complete revamp of the bridging systems that IA holds to MLC 70. This in turn would have been cost prohibitive, even if they were available at that point of time.

As an instance, i talked about the 10m capability which was dismissed last time around. Like previous time, i am only saying that weight was one of the considerations, but important nevertheless.

And now, you are talking about 'assorted bridging' equipment? I especially mentioned 400 units of AM-50...chances are IA has less than the numbers assumed for this specific system. Overall, it might well have more bridging equipment.

Coming to the equipment required - you do realize that Sarvatra is going to replace these systems in IA? So, why have MLC-70 equipment when you don't have Arjuns to cross over them? Could it be that requirement for MLC-70 Bridge system rests on its own merit and this AM-50 argument is nothing but another bogey?

Sarvatra will replace all the AM-50, if it happens, may be in another two decades. As far as question of why is concerned, i take it as an example of commitment of IA to true indigenous effort.

[Yogi_G]

The ex army chief's comments about air defences being 97% obsolete reminds me of rehman malik's comment about his being 96% sure that some person was dead.

[NRao]

This T-90 versus Arjun debate is truly endless as I have seen this happening since 2001 , people have changed some are still with BRF and some are not , new people come and the old story continues ... I have myself took part in some debates and have studied the subject with great curiosity but finally I realised every tank has pro and cons and in the end IA is the best people to judge.

Which is why the IA has decided to go with the T-90 in the NE - AFTER looking for a light tank in Poland?

Just curious.

Personally speaking I was satisfied with i saw VKS speak on this matter , I am not sure if we can invite him on BRF meet in Delhi and have a word with him on what he thinks about it in more detailed matter ......perhaps he is too big a person to attend meets like that , the reason i said VKS is because most people word trust him and his word ..... so i would just post what he said in an interview on the subject.

What is the status on armour? Is T-90s the MBT now? What is being done about the large numbers of T-72 tanks which lack a night fighting capability? How many Arjun regiment will the army have, and are there plans to upgrade Arjun tanks?

VKS: By terming the T-90 tank as the main battle tank (MBT), the Indian Army implies that this tank is the future mainstay of the Indian Army, and is indicative of the volumes of this tank comprising the backbone of the mechanised forces. T-90 is a state of the art and highly capable weapon system, capable of survival in the most challenging environments.

The Indian Army has already addressed the issue of night blindness of T-72 tanks. A large number of tanks are now night-enabled. Measures are already in place to ensure speedy night enablement of the balance numbers. With this, we have ensured that the erstwhile issue of night blindness is addressed holistically, with our entire tank fleet capable of operations at night.

As far as Arjun tank is concerned, the Indian Army is looking at inducting a few additional numbers of MBT Arjun regiments in the future. The tank finally produced by DRDO is quite competitive and has come a long way. Upgradations and improvements to the MBT Arjun as a Mark- II version are underway. On successful completion of these improvements, the tank will meet the requirements of the Indian Army.

Do you have a URL for this article. Tried to find it and could not locate it. TIA.

[NRao]

Austin,

Just BTW, here is what VKS stated - RECENTLY (not in 2001, not in 2005, not in 2010):

Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank

Saraswat who is also the secretary, department of defence, R&D, added that the problem in Punjab can be tackled with the use of large iron bridges developed by DRDO for smooth transportation of troops in hostile terrain.

Saraswat said that during trials the tank was found better in mobility and accuracy in comparison to Army’s mainstay T-90 tanks

That in 2013 folks. From SVK.

Ouch. That hurt.

Sure, please invite him to a BR meet.

[SaiK]

I am really concerned that IA is just exposing its weakness in crossing bridges of all types they will face in real war situation. Are they thinking they will never cross LoC?

[Austin]

NRao that interview was given by Gen VKS to Force Magazine in Jan or March 2012 , They dont have those in Archive so you cant search it any ways ...any one in Delli or is it Noida can get that mag and check

Ok found the interview link below

http://forceindia.net/InterviewJan-VKSingh-Chief.aspx

[Yagnasri]

I thought they handleed much worst conditions in Bangladesh. But the question is whether IA going to get a mandate from our poitical leadership for a all out war with fast moving armour thrusts etc into Pakiland??? I dont know and not so sure.

We are going to have war all accross the front with no major gain to India and in the end there will no positive advatage to us. We lacked agressive power earlier so it is understandable. But now we do not have any will for agressive action even if we have assets.

[NRao]

Oct 2009 :: Indian Army to procure 300 light tanks

Even as the Indian Army continues to rectify problems that cropped up with its recently inducted T-90 main battle tanks, it has drawn up plans to procure about 300 light tanks.

A request for information issued to prospective vendors has pegged the requirement at about 200 wheeled light tanks (armoured cars) and about 100 tracked light tanks.

The Army wants tanks for effective employability in the high-altitude areas and mountainous terrain as well as in the deserts and urban and semi-urban terrains in the western sector. The numbers and type of tanks and the projected areas of deployment is indicative of the Army's threat perceptions and operational requirements in various theaters and its doctrinal approach.

Defence sources say the numbers could rise. The army, at present, has 63 armoured regiments out of which about half a dozen have been re-equipped with the T-90

Russian T-90s, procured a few years ago, faced problems while operating at high temperatures in the desert, affecting the tanks' electronics, fire control system and thermal imagers.

According to sources, trials are on in desert to evaluate ratifications and modifications to overcome the problems. About a dozen Russian experts are assisting the Army in the Rajasthan ranges. The Army initially bought 310 T-90s and placed an order for another 330 in 2007 besides license producing another 1,000 by 2020.

Military experts say that light tanks would primarily be used for reconnaissance, where speed and stealth are preferred over firepower. Wheeled tanks have a much lower audio signature and are more manoeuverable than tracked tanks.

Maj Gen Raj Mehta, a cavalry officer, said light tanks are more effective in areas like paddy field, water-logged terrain, sand and marshy ground, where the ground pressure is very low.

Then there is the issue of logistics and cross-country transportation. A light tank weighs up to 14 tonnes while the T-90 or the Arjun weigh 45 and 58 tonnes, respectively. This makes it easier to transport them to the high-altitude areas in Ladakh or North-East by road or air.

Sooooooooooooooo..... in 2009 the T-90 was STILL having problems? Interesting.

[NRao]

Oct, 2009 :: Indian army planning to deploy light tanks on China border

Process for acquisition of the tanks has been initiated with the Request for Information (RFI) being issued for the same. The tanks are expected to weigh around 22 tonnes and be capable of operating at heights of over 3,000 metres in hilly terrain.

The Indian Army is planning to acquire 300 light tanks for deployment in the mountainous regions of the border with China and Pakistan, a move seen as part of efforts to beef up capabilities on the frontiers.

Process for acquisition of the tanks has been initiated with the Request for Information (RFI) being issued for the same.

The tanks are intended to be deployed in the mountainous region of Jammu and Kashmir in the North and Arunachal Pradesh and Assam in the Northeast, army sources told PTI.

The tanks are expected to weigh around 22 tonnes and be capable of operating at heights of over 3,000 metres in hilly terrain, they said.

Deployment of the light tanks is being considered as part of mechanised force in the high altitude regions as heavy tanks cannot reach there, they said.

The army wants the tanks to be able to penetrate highly protected armoured vehicles and main battle tanks of the enemy from a distance of more than 2km and also be able to fire high explosive anti-tank shells and guided missiles.

Conventionally, tanks are deployed only in plains and it is very rare to station such armoured detachments in mountainous areas.

Heavy tanks face problems in mobility as narrow and spiralling roads make their movement very slow and the bridges there are also not built to bear heavy load of above 40-45 tonnes, they said.

At present, the only mountainous region in India where tanks are deployed is the Finger Area in Sikkim along the China border.

The army has been maintaining a squadron of heavier T-72 and T-55 tanks here since mid-80s. Finger Area, a few kilometre tract, has been known to have witnessed incursions by Chinese army. In one such incident last year, Chinese troops had threatened to destroy a structure of stones erected by India there.

India had protested the Chinese aggression and the matter was raised at the flag meeting between the two armies.

India has also strengthened defences in the Finger Area by converting its positions into a permanent post to keep watch over troop movements. The army earlier used to send in
only regular patrols and had a few traditional defensive positions in the area.

China has made rapid strides in building infrastructure close to the border with India. Viewing the developments with concern, India has also lately started matching up by
improving roads and other transportation network.

The last Army Commanders' Conference held here recently discussed the issue of infrastructure building along the China border, including a proposal to lay a railway line.

Defence minister AK Antony made it clear earlier this week that efforts were being made to bolster capabilities along the China border. "Just as China is doing, we are also
trying to strengthen our capabilities in our part of the country. Earlier, we were not doing anything but in the last few years, our government is also strengthening our capabilities in our areas by strengthening Army, Air Force and the infrastructure," he said.

These were very, very specific requirements that were mentioned.

Why the T-90 then?

[Pratyush]

^^^

Perhaps, in the light of improved logistics, the IA is confident of deploying the T 90 in the area. But if the Tin kan, can be deployed, then why not the Arjun.

[srin]

Actually - if you look at it, the "light" part seems to be confusing. One of the article above says 14t, another says 22t and Anders tank is 35t. You might as well have a T-72 which weighs only a bit more, no ?

[NRao]

Actually - if you look at it, the "light" part seems to be confusing. One of the article above says 14t, another says 22t and Anders tank is 35t. You might as well have a T-72 which weighs only a bit more, no ?

Where is the confusion? They had issued RFI and it seems to me the process never went beyond that (not even RFP). It suddenly culminated with a request for T-90MSs !!!

[rohitvats]

I have already requested you to forget AM-50. There was no discussion centered on AM-50. NRao posted a video stating that AM-50 was MLC 70. I corrected it.

But why forget the AM-50? After all, even it does not meet the MLC-70 standard and you just argued about IA having to spend another INR 1,800 crores to replace them with Sarvatra?

But I can understand why need to forget AM-50 - because the number of units of this type is likely to be not half of what was assumed.

There has never been 'NO MLC-70 Bridge System is equal to NO Arjun induction' argument from my side. I have maintained previously and still do, that the decision of IA to restrict Arjun to one sector of operations, has been taken while considering the weight of Arjun and the requirement that large-scale induction of Arjuns in other sectors would entail complete revamp of the bridging systems that IA holds to MLC 70. This in turn would have been cost prohibitive, even if they were available at that point of time.

This is another canard.

Allow me to ask two questions here:

- Which other bridging equipment are you referring to which would require up-gradation in case of mass induction of Arjun? Can you please list the same?

- Secondly, if Arjun is to be deployed in desert as no bridging restriction exists in deserts , what stopped IA from equipping 31 Armd Div from equipping with Arjun tanks? After all, AOR of the formation has traditionally being in the desert?

As an instance, i talked about the 10m capability which was dismissed last time around. Like previous time, i am only saying that weight was one of the considerations, but important nevertheless.

And yet - you were not able to point out where these mythical 10m capability of MLC-50 standard is required? And what equipment might this be which is tailor made to lay MLC-50 10m bridges over water obstacles? Can you please answer these two queries?

Sarvatra will replace all the AM-50, if it happens, may be in another two decades. As far as question of why is concerned, i take it as an example of commitment of IA to true indigenous effort.

Now, please don't make virtue out of necessity. DRDO did not develop a MLC-70 Bridge laying system out of the blue. It did so because IA wanted it to.