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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 12:31 
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Baikul, Singha,

I did realise that Singha was referring to Pakjab. However, I was responding over my handphone and you know the BRF site is not the best out there for mobile devices.

After crafting the response I did realise that I should have brought the second part of my response up first but then the effort would have been too much, again on the device I was using.

However, read in totality, I don't think there was any cause for confusion on what I was writing and I think both of gentlemen got my point.

In summary: Could have been crafted better, however, it did convey what I was trying to say, which is: While I agree that the situation in PakJab would be dicey, it would so for both Arjuns as well as T90s. I don't think a smaller tank would have any noticeable advantage.

If anyone disagrees with that, I would certainly like to hear their POV and if I find it to be convincing, I'm certainly willing to change my views. I don't have any dogmas in this case.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 12:33 
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Sanku wrote:
amit wrote:
[

One final time. Bloody read a post before responding. You flaming antics are getting tiring.

I wrote: Arjun crossing through urbanized Punjab towards the Pakistani border..


As other have said, Singha was CLEARLY talking about battles inside PakJab.

Why would anyone talk about Indian Punjab in context of

Quote:
one thing about pakjab is its thickly populated and much urbanized now.

I detect no signs of a unified plan and equipment philosophy to engage in heavy urban and semi-urban fighting like IDF does.


Clearly there is a GOOD reason I need to add emphasis. However, clearly the message is difficult to understand without emphasis. It is a different matter that some chose to ignore facts even after emphasis.


Here we go again. You are such an attention seeker that you have to get into a discussion between two posters with your abrasive style of posting. Sigh!

Even standup comedy gets tiring after a while.

Like I said: If wishes were horses beggars would ride.


Last edited by amit on 10 Apr 2013 12:42, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 12:37 
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Singha wrote:
my post was meant for the urban fight situation inside pakjab not on the march within our border.

pakjab will see people tying charges to themselves and diving under tanks as human mines even..of that I am sure. villages & towns are large and pukka often with the only major roads running through them and the outskirts impassable due to deep canals and blasted bridges. ideal for laying tank traps.

it wont be any picnic. the israelis try to get around such problems by a punishing regime of SP + MRLS indirect fire and heavy combat bulldozers to break obstacles and explode mines. and very heavy IFVs like Namer with MBT level of hull protection.

just as the US does in some desert, we need to build fake pakistani towns and villages as realistic as possible and practice religiously the close tank + IFV + dismounted infantry drills needed to negotiate these problems.


Agree with you on this Singha. But as I explained in my previous post, in the context of which is a better tank - Arjun or T90 - in this situation, I don't think either would have any noticeable advantage and whatever tactics that the Indian Army develops for this kind of ops, would apply to both.

However, I personally think that if the Indian armour does make a dash across the border, it would follow the Bangladesh tactics of going around towns and isolating them for the infantry to mop up, instead of charging in with heavy armour into built up areas. Note: The Israelis really did not have a choice in the matter, they had to go into the built up areas. OTOH the Indian armoured brigade has an option of going through the countryside, IMO and blocking off built up towns.

What are your thoughts on that?


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 13:33 
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amit wrote:
I did realise that Singha was referring to Pakjab. However, I was responding over my handphone and you know the BRF site is not the best out there for mobile devices.
.


Boss you can downhill ski all you want, but clearly, Singha was talking about challenges in PakJab, and your reply had nothing to do with PakJab.

Now even if we assume that you wrote a poorly worded post and it was not clear that you were talking about Indian punjab, the question remains, why ever any one would want to discuss population response in Indian punjab when the discussion is on urban tank battle in Pakistan?

Now you can return to your regular paraphrasing/summarizing/name calling exercises, but clearly trying to say that there is no hostile response in town when the discussion is on PakJab towns and then claiming it was about India, is extremely dis-ingenious .

I dont know why the above was being done, neither do I want to, but it is important to clear up the core matter.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 13:38 
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Sanku wrote:
I dont know why the above was being done, neither do I want to,


You don't want to know and yet you secrete three posts into the thread! :eek:

I shudder to think about the amount of nandi droppings that we would have had to wade through if you really wanted to know what was being said!

But enough of this. I see you've got a reflexive habit of responding to anything, everything even if you make a hash of it (yes, yes I know by saying that I'm just rehashing your history of posting here).

I see NRao has the right idea. You should be ignored. I will do the same but with a twist. :D

When I feel like some entertainment, my ignore button will go off.

:rotfl: :rotfl:


Last edited by amit on 10 Apr 2013 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 13:41 
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^^^
Ignore all you want.

You can run but you cant hide.
:mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 21:39 
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The T-90 purchase is made to make sure that India does not field capabilities that Pukis could not match. 1,000 Arjuns, 400 LCAs, Pinaka etc will help us to dwarf Pukistan and focus on Chicom. But, the rotten few don't want that to happen for it would drain their funding sources.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 21:57 
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er, why should any Indian armor enter the urban areas of pakjab, to achieve objectives? Our objective should be simple - demolish PA capability to basic law enforcement levels, kill the incurable and quarantine the rest of the animals, using their own shepherds. Not to "rebuild bakistan as per Djinnah's non-existent specs", that khan claims to do every time (but rarely does since WWII).

I thought the plan is to smash them up outside the city areas and then round up a few whiskey-dunking senior khakis, put them under the command of retired, tough-speaking Indian generals and let these second-rung pakjabis handle their public and admin tasks. They know how to handle the situation, having centuries of "managing" on behalf of invaders. IIRC, there were even news reports during Op Parakram about sounding up of retired Indian generals as Indian pro-consuls for the interim? So we dont have to think like khan, who is all about invasion, occupation and dominance or Yehudis, who are about maintaining a certain image.

But before that their main armor force should be smashed to smithereens with the kill ratios hugely in our favor and that must be done outside urban areas by a combo of our armor/air. If they hide inside urban areas behind jihadi human shields, then airstrikes it is. We dont even have to waste PGMs. Just drop dumb bombs and Hafeez's boys will gladly claim credit.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 22:14 
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hnair wrote:
er, why should any Indian armor enter the urban areas of pakjab, to achieve objectives?


Hnairgolis saar. The point is of course valid. Even in 71, IA demonstrated that bothering with hard points was less fun militarly rather than shock and awe rolling quickly across the country side.

I have only one thought in this --> PakJab, is now almost a complete warren of pig stys from one end to the other. If you look at the population density, of 450/km2 (1,200/sq mi), this is not concentrated in Lahore, but spread across as multiple interlocked villages from one end to the other. In addition we anyway have the BCD fortifications.

Given this, is it practical that flanking manuverous could be carried out bypassing built up areas? IMVHO it would be tough, but of course I am willing to be corrected on this.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 22:49 
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Per orbat dot com even that old favourite ryk sukkur line is now thickly populated nd no longer amenable to open battle.

Tsp has become a lebanon of sorts.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 23:06 
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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 23:15 
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I am not sure where do we always get the idea of having Urban combat in Paki land ....these things are only good in scenario thread or in highly skewed lopsided environment like US + NATO and Iraq or Afganistan or Kosovo

The moment we enter into Pakiland and start doing urban fight using Tanks , Some NRO satellites would see many mushroom cloud over key indian cities. Thats good enough detterent for any urban conflict ideas.

In 20 years i dont recollect we even entered few km in Pakiland or did SF ops to get key figure involved in terrorism in India .....a good start can still be made if we can get Hafiz Sayeed or Dawood Ibrahim or Sayeed Sallaudin that would be a good show kitne main hai apne mein dum ... other then that such talks are as peppy as Saas Bahu serial.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 23:31 
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^^^ Austin-ji; the point is that Pakistan may not have any significant non-urban-village areas left. Where will we fight?


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 23:44 
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Sanku wrote:
^^^ Austin-ji; the point is that Pakistan may not have any significant non-urban-village areas left. Where will we fight?


You seem to have not read what PC said when he was HM after 26/11 , He said We would never fight :)

We are peace loving noook power onleee , mean while over past 15 years I have seen HM boss Sayeed Salluddin ( sorry about spell , i was never good in spelling pigs right ) has put on weight , I always thought when I was young that some indian SF guy would kill him but he now has better chances of dying from a heart attack.


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2013 23:55 
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Does anyone remember IA's official reasons for rejecting tank Ex ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Equipment/Others/351-Tank-Ex.html

At 47 tons , with Arjun's armament package, and being an indigenous solution, I thought it came closest to the FMBT concept and also perhaps the best upgrade to existing t72' s - developed further - would also negate import requirements of the tin can.

Another example of Natasha lobbies killing local cost effective solutions.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 00:57 
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nelson wrote:
@rohitvats
As you say T-72 BLT is in service, but how many. IA ordered 135 units in 2011? How many have been produced as yet. IA also ordered first 40 units of production series Sarvatra in 2006. BEML started producing in 2010? How many have been delivered. Even we saw a prototype of Arjun slide launched BLT being demonstrated. Who is producing it? There is a gap between claim of development and induction in full numbers. Even to this date whether we are not sure if the induction is complete or not. So, in 2001-02, when the decision was made to anoint T-90 as MBT till 2017, such factors would have weighed in. This is reaffirmed by induction of the two Arjun regiments, inducted in/after 2008, to a particular area.


Nelson – you need to first decide what is that you’re arguing about.

You have shifted the very premise on which the discussions have been built. Over last couple of pages, your arguments have taken different positions and each has different implications. Let me summarize your arguments (and my response) here for sake of clarity and reference:

(a) You have argued that one of the factors behind induction of T-90 tank (tank weighing less than 50T) was that the bulk of bridging equipment held by IA was MLC-50 rated. Induction of Arjun as MBT of IA, or even across other sectors apart from desert, would entail mass up-gradation and induction of MLC-60/70 class equipment. To that, I did back of the envelop calculation (using AM-50 and Sarvatra Bridge Layer System example) to show that the IA would be required to spend ~USD 200-300 million to upgrade the bridging equipment to MLC-70 standard of Sarvatra type.

(b) Next, you shifted the argument to the fact not only would AM-50 require up-gradation but also associated bridging equipment like MT-55, Kartik BLT, T-72 BLT and Kruppman floating assault bridge. On being pointed out (by me) that apart from AM-50 and MT-55, all other equipment are of MLC-60 standard, you brought in the argument that these MLC-60 standard equipment started becoming available only in mid-2000 and thereon.

Now, you do realize that by shifting the argument to point (b) above – which is the right positions as far as bridging equipment goes – you’re weakening the case for such mass scale induction of T-90?

However, first things first – I actually support the induction of T-90 tanks in 2002 and to some extent can even work with induction of second tranche. I could even understand the requirement for 2,000 T-90 in IA inventory if IA had been honest about induction of Arjun tanks. But it is not.

And these arguments about bridging equipment and weight and canal bridges and 4-man crew are all cooked up in retrospect to somehow delay and kill the Arjun program. However, we digress.

Coming back to 50T tank and bridging equipment of IA – when IA decided to express induct first batch of T-90 in 2002, the existing inventory of bridging equipment would have been of MLC-50 standard. So, during this period, the bridging equipment argument holds.

After Russians played hardball on ToT and no production could take place at Avadhi, IA inducted the second lot from Russia in 2006-2007 time frame. And post that, 300+ tanks have rolled out as of 2012 from HVF.

Now, you’ve yourself pointed out that Kartik BLT, T-72 BLT and other equipment (like Sarvatra) started becoming available in mid-2000. These MLC-70 standard equipment were not being inducted for Arjun tanks; these were being inducted because IA was in the process of replacing MLC-50 standard equipment (examples: MT-55 and AM-50) with new MLC-70 standard equipment. Existence of Arjun does not even feature in this decision on up-gradation of bridging equipment.

So, while 50T tank in 2002 and 2006 could be understood with respect to existing inventory of MLC-50 standard equipment, how does this bridging equipment argument hold up beyond 2008 when IA (Arjun tank or no Arjun tank) was as it is in the process of inducting new MLC-70 standard equipment across the board? Even a 50T T-90 tank will in future cross water obstacles and trenches on MLC-70 standard equipment.

This IA wide transition of bridging equipment to MLC-70 standard punctures holes into two other arguments against Arjun:

(1) That induction of Arjun would require substantial investment in upgrading the bridging equipment – as pointed out earlier, IA is at is going to upgrade the bridging equipment to MLC-70 standard, Arjun or no Arjun. So to say that induction of Arjun would entail additional investment is bridging equipment is plain incorrect.

(2) Arjun cannot be deployed across all sectors because of commonality of bridging equipment – again, if IA is upgrading entire bridging equipment paraphernalia to MLC-70 standard, all the engineering formations across the IA can support the Arjun tank.

Lastly, you spoke about numbers of these MLC-70 standard equipment in the IA and pace of induction. Let me ask you a counter-question – Does it appear that IA is losing sleep over this aspect? It does not to me. And that is because it knows it can manage for a while with earlier equipment which can support T-90 tanks.

Had IA been serious about induction of Arjun tank in large numbers, it would have been shouting from the rooftops about lack of bridging equipment holding up Arjun induction – and IA’s operational posture and readiness.

Didn’t it use the T-80UD in PA service argument to push the T-90 deal? And subsequently to get second batch of 330 T-90 in 2006? I’m yet to see the same level of eagerness when it comes to Arjun. In fact, as per interview of DG of HCF Avadhi which was carried IIRC in FORCE Magazine, IA has told HVF that it will not be inducting Arjun BLT. Any guesses, why?

And BTW, Ajai Shukla, one of the fiercest critics of Arjun, too accepts that Mk1 was ready for large scale induction by 2006.

Quote:
This bout of discussion on the topic started due to news reports carrying Dr Sarawat's statement to such effect that Arjun cannot be deployed in Punjab and they are deployed in Rajasthan, not COAS or DGMF but DRDO chief. He also said that any future tank developed will be 50 tonne max, because of such reasons. I don't know why he is spreading this canard.


On the Punjab thing, he is simply saying what DGMF and others in IA have been saying for a long time. As for 50T FMBT - FMBT is as good as dead. As per reports by AS, IA has come around its senses to not ask for unobtanium and feels that iterative development of Arjun will serve as FMBT.


Last edited by rohitvats on 11 Apr 2013 13:27, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 02:30 
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Why does the IA prefer a 4 man crew to 3 in tanks ? What are the pros/cons, other than the obvious one in more manpower and hence operation expenditure.

rohitvats,
Other thank tank wagons and bridges, what other pieces of equipment are involved in transporting tanks within our own territory ? Tank tansporters ?


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 03:18 
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Good discussion on 4-man crew vs 3-man crew

Woohoo. This gets better.
A 1972 study on the same by US Armor School

--Ashish


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 04:47 
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Sanku wrote:
Drishyaman wrote:
I just tried to clarify the muddy water as I found Anujan ji seriously concerned with Arjun’s Torsion Bar Issues. And I honestly, tried to pull him out of the comedy (according to Sanku ji) that people were having here.

Drishyman ji, Anujan ji does his above song and dance routine every one in a few months. He thinks this is being clever. I think its tiring.


I will tell you why I do the song and dance routine. And yes, I think I am clever.

If you take a step back and see: The countries which are "reliable arms suppliers" are not in any way inherently better than us in setting up a manufacturing line. What happened was US, Russia, Germany, France ityadi went through a near death experience -- WWII -- where they either scaled up manufacturing or died. In the height of WWII, San Francisco shipyards alone in massa was rolling out a ship every day. Now wrap your head around that!

Obviously their ability to manufacture stuff built up during WWII carried over, and to this day they know how to put together a tank and set up an assembly line.

Now the question is, should we learn it ourselves, or forever buy from them? Now let us analyze pros and cons. The cons of making it ourselves are obvious: Unit costs might be high, we cannot make the best machine, we cannot make enough of them quickly and so on. Now the cons of importing, in my opinion are far higher. The list of scams and fiascos are way too numerous for me to exhaustively enumerate: Bofors, HDW Submarines, LCA engines with Unkil sanctioning us, Krasnopol ammo, Viggen aircraft (latest wikileaks), Vikramaditya -- heck even French are squeezing our testimonials on the MMRCA now. Did you know that during Kargil when we needed brake chutes and tyres for aircraft, the foreign supplier had the temerity to send in used chutes and tyres and hike up the price for it? Yes, this happened. They over charged us even for body bags and coffins.

Coming to T90 itself, the testimonial squeezing list goes on and on. Armor, guns, ammo, fire control computer, malfunctioning TI.

To add insult to injury, in this specific case of T90 vs Arjun, it turns out that our product might even be better if not as good!

So next comes our ability to churn it out in numbers. As I see it, there are only two ways of doing it. We pass through a near death experience of fighting an all out multi year war. Or we stick with our manufacturing and improve it step by step. Now without doing either, the common complaint is "let us demonstrate the capability to make many tanks before we order any tanks and then we will think of ordering tanks, if that doesnt happen, we wont order tanks". Contrast this, with even Massa, which took the long term health of Boeing and Lockheed into account while choosing JSF/F22, and sourced it from both, so that their manufacturing lines stay open!

This is the naked truth. Unless we make it on our own and use our own, we will never make it on our own or use our own. And getting into the cycle of making and using local products is not going to be very pleasant and problem free. Countries which do rival the WWII antagonists -- China and Israel -- stuck with their products through phases of reverse engineering, Jugaad, refinement and now are genuine weapons designers and manufacturers themselves. If we dont pass through that phase (apparently every Israeli tanker riding the jugaad centurion was trained to maintain it because it used to break down so often. Dont even get me started about Chinese aircraft that their pilots had to bear for so long) we will forever import arms. Including used brake chutes, body bags and coffins.

On the other hand, what I see in this dhaaga ranges from outright Russie love to arguing over semantics of words. Paraphrased, there was even an argument between the difference of "is being", "was being", "is been" and "had been" !! And people post facts, semi facts, dis information and misinformation and information that is generally unverifiable.

Like Sanku-ji insisting on a smoothbore gun for Arjun. The beauty and convenience of this statement is if it happens by chance, it is a huge "I told you so!" moment and validation for everything that he ever said. If it doesnt happen, then it can always be passed off as something that is going to happen in the future or something that was considered but stonewalled by the obstinate DRDO/Avadi folks. The rest of us on the other hand, have heard nothing but praise for Arjun's gun. Which by the way is rifled because GSQR asked for it. And will become smoothbore if Army moves the goalposts and changes the GSQR which might happen, as we saw from MKII Arjun and FMBT 4 man crew, inbuilt AWACS and ballistic missile launch capable but 50ton tank requirement.

So we go round and round rehashing the same things over and over again. Can Arjun fire missiles? What is its range? Do we have bridges? What did AUCRT really do? Isnt Arjun taller and wider? Will it fit into a goods train? Doesnt it need 4 people? Can it fire APFSDS? What about logistics? Is it indigenous enough? Didnt the torsion bar break? Why is it so heavy? Avadi has quality control problems. They cant make it fast enough. I heard the gun barrels chip. I heard the track rubber pads wear out quickly. The hydropenumatic suspension leaked during transport.

All the while we are giving our testimonials in a platter for Russies to squeeze. And they set up a manufacturing line in our expense. Because we order 350 tanks at one go, but we order 12 Arjuns with an option of returning two. And I am sure Russies run risky experiments on us. Anyone heard how MBB pretty much used us to try out technologies of what is feasible or not on LCH? They then sold the successful risky technologies in their other projects and customers and left the unsuccessful risky technologies on our lap, like 3D vibration control. Which we took several years to fix! And LCH is one of our more successful projects and MBB one of the less evil arms designers!

So that is why I come here once in a while and politely ask if the sand dunes on the desert is rated for 50 tons or if they should be upgraded. The confusion on the face of the readers is far more palatable to me than when they are wondering if a rifled bore gun is better or a smooth bore gun is better.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 05:22 
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Anujan wrote:
All the while we are giving our testimonials in a platter for Russies to squeeze. And they set up a manufacturing line in our expense and run risky experiments on us. Anyone heard how MBB pretty much used us to try out technologies of what is feasible or not on LCH? And LCH is one of our more successful projects!

IIRC, that was during the Dhruv project, not LCH. Of course, that makes their action even more damning - that was our first copter design.

Absolutely agreed with everything else. I cringed when I first read the statement from some Army officer to the effect that 'the Army's job is to fight wars, and we need the civilians to give us the best possible weapons for the purpose'. Sounds logical on paper in isolation, but shortsighted in strategic terms, particularly when domestic military programs aren't exactly a generation behind the best comparable foreign equipment, except for niches like materials engineering for aero-engines.

That Army officers perspective, ironically enough, mirror's that of the TSP jernails across the border from him - he expects a quick clinical mission, with the nurses around him (i.e. MoD, GoI and the taxpayer) to feed him the best tools for it. Anything longer than a week, and we will have an extremely expensive logistical problem on hand, including the possibility that supplies simply may not be available for any price, turning whatever best-of-class item we field into a hangar/garage/drydock queen for the duration of hostilities. Which of course, would not be the Army's problem because it was the civilians' job to ensure he had everything to fight with...

In an ideal world the IA ought to be compelled to field only the Arjun and DRDO commissioned to design derivative platforms. Is it going to take an effort to build up support infrastructure, train additional tankmen, et al ? Absolutely. But we have a tank that's comparable or better than the best we've imported. Unless we lack the technical wherewithal altogether, we shouldn't be importing tanks. When we do have one on hand, effort and money should be directed at it's iterative improvement vs peers.

Mature powers realize that their strength isn't just in their cutting edge weaponry, but the military industrial complex that backs them. They've made TONS of mistakes getting where they are now, with hundreds of canned projects and many dead or maimed in the process of developing it. In our environment we've an LCA who's induction hangs fire even now, and a test crash could turn it into Marut v.2 overnight.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 05:44 
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Now that the 'shooting' and 'protection' abilities of the Arjun vis a vis T-90 have been established, we are left with the 'scooting' abilities of T-90 in urban areas! Unless the T-90 can outrun / out-manoeuvre an ATGM / RPG, it will be deficient to Arjun in such scenarios as well. Remember the Battle of Grozny anyone? and the decimation of the T-72s there?


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 05:51 
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arnab wrote:
Now that the 'shooting' and 'protection' abilities of the Arjun vis a vis T-90 have been established, we are left with the 'scooting' abilities of T-90 in urban areas! Unless the T-90 can outrun / out-manoeuvre an ATGM / RPG, it will be deficient to Arjun in such scenarios as well. Remember the Battle of Grozny anyone? and the decimation of the T-72s there?


Tanks in urban combat are pretty much useless, unless they are needed for bunker busting. Thermobaric weapons are effective at snuffing out buildings with ease and efficiency. That being said, the idea of the BMPT is pretty neat, with it being a bit more heavily armoured and gunned than an APC/IFV but it has more maneuverability than a tank. Maybe, private India design bureau's can come up with an idea.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 08:16 
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Suraj,
I know you have way more exposure to our defense services that me. That said, I find it hard to believe that a major decision making chunk of the IA/IAF don't comprehend this:
Quote:
Anything longer than a week, and we will have an extremely expensive logistical problem on hand, including the possibility that supplies simply may not be available for any price, turning whatever best-of-class item we field into a hangar/garage/drydock queen for the duration of hostilities.

A hypothesis: they've taken that into account. They don't expect us to be in any major brawl well over 2 weeks (just a number based on your 1 week). In fact that is all they've been tasked for by their higher ups, our political class. We have a far worse chokepoint - oil. If we can't keep a supply going for spares for our tanks and fighters, how are we going to keep one going for oil ? This might not necessarily explain the T90 vs Arjun debate. That might well be a case of 'refusing to change their mindset' for the IA armoured corps.

I think only our Navy has had any charter/ambitions of being a strategic power projecting service.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 09:13 
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Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
>> Thermobaric weapons are effective at snuffing out buildings with ease and efficiency

does our 105mm and 155mm regiments have thermobaric shells or does our infantry even have the Shmel rockets? not to my knowledge.
I dont think our shipon and Carl gustaf units have any thermobaric warheads.

thing is , we can hope not to get pulled into urban combat but as you know plans can go for a six due to enemy action, political directives..etc.
lets hope we dont have to face such a "ab tera kya hoga kalia" type situation. suppose the pakis do a counter strike and grab some indian towns near
the border like say Gurdaspur....now whether it makes military sense or not, orders from PMO will come down to COAS to retake it for congi media soundbytes at ANY cost.

specialized kit like this armoured bulldozer cannot be drummed up on a hajji armour basis when shit hits fan.....these kind of kit need to be purchased, be part of the orbat and training cycles. managing crisis by congi style hand waving isnt the solution. :lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IDF-D ... or-001.jpg

The D9R, the latest generation of D9 bulldozers in IDF service, has a power of 405 to 410 horsepower (302 to 310 kW) and drawbar pull of 71.6 tonnes-force (702 kN). It has a crew of two, an operator and a commander. It is operated by the TZAMA (צמ"ה = ציוד מכני הנדסי, Mechanical Engineering Equipment) units of the Israeli Engineering Corps.

The main IDF modification is the installation of an Israeli-made armor kit which provides armor protection to the mechanical systems and to the operator cabin. The operator and commander are protected inside an armored cabin ("the cockpit"), with bulletproof windows to protect against bombs, machinegun, and sniper fire. The IDF also developed a slat armor add-on to deflect RPG rounds. The fitted armor package adds roughly 15 additional tons to the production-line weight of the D9. The modified D9 bulldozers can be fitted with disparate features, such as crew-operated machine guns, smoke projectors, or grenade launchers.

The IDF uses the D9 for a wide variety of engineering tasks, most notably home & structure demolition, even if under fire, as well as earthworks, digging moats, mounting sand barriers, building fortifications, rescuing stuck, overturned or damaged armored fighting vehicles (along with M88 Recovery Vehicle), clearing landmines, detonating IEDs and explosives, clearing terrain obstacles and opening routes for armored fighting vehicles and infantry.

During the Second Intifada the armored D9 bulldozer gained notoriety as being an effective tool against Palestinian fighters & civilians, as they were almost impervious to Palestinian weapons and withstood even RPGs and belly charges with more than 100 kg and even half a ton of explosive. Therefore they were used to open safe routes for IDF forces and detonate explosive charges. The bulldozer was used extensively to clear shrubbery and structures which could be used as cover. In addition they razed houses of civilians and the families of suicide bombers.[citation needed]

Following several incidents where armed Palestinians barricaded themselves inside houses and killed soldiers attempting to breach the entries, the IDF developed "Noal Sir Lachatz" (נוהל סיר לחץ "Pressure Pot Regulation") in which D9s and other engineering vehicles were used to bring them out by razing the houses; most of them surrendered because of fears of being buried alive.[citation needed]

While Palestinians saw the D9 as a devastating weapon, and human rights groups criticized it for the massive damage it caused to Palestinian infrastructure, Israelis and military experts claimed the D9 was a necessary tool for combatting insurgency and a key factor in reducing IDF casualties.[


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 11:23 
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KrishnaK wrote:
A hypothesis: they've taken that into account. They don't expect us to be in any major brawl well over 2 weeks (just a number based on your 1 week). In fact that is all they've been tasked for by their higher ups, our political class. We have a far worse chokepoint - oil. If we can't keep a supply going for spares for our tanks and fighters, how are we going to keep one going for oil ? This might not necessarily explain the T90 vs Arjun debate. That might well be a case of 'refusing to change their mindset' for the IA armoured corps.

I think only our Navy has had any charter/ambitions of being a strategic power projecting service.


Krishna,

I don't know who's to blame but I do think there is a lack of proper strategic thinking.

Consider this. At the moment we are a (roughly) $2 trillion economy. By 2020 we'd be around $4-5 trillion and very soon after that we'd be the world's third or second largest economy.

And today we are the world's biggest importer of arms.

What this implies for the various MICs around the world, be it Russia, France or the US, is that if India remains the biggest importer of arms, while growing to be a over $5 trillion economy, the country single handedly can keep all the MICs well-funded, supplying enough money to keep next generation projects in these countries running.

We already have the case of India bankrolling to a significant degree all new military development in Russia. In the case of the MMRCA, India's buying (or not buying) Rafale will determine what future this aircraft has. Yet instead of India having the testimonials of the Russian and French MICs in their hands, this lack of strategic thinking has allowed our testimonials to be squeezed by all and sundry.

These MICs have a powerful vested interest in ensuring that our Armed forces’ fetish for imported maal is kept intact. Those MICs (think Russia) which traditionally have had deep connections with the Armed forces are better positioned to ensure the love for their stuff remains. Mind you I'm not talking about straightforward corruption, of course some of it is there (be it in terms of Natasha, vodka or plain cash); it’s a much more insidious subtle mental conditioning - to the effect that all Indian maal is by definition inferior - that has not only afflicted sections of the armed forces but also folks who keep track of these developments like posters on BRF.

Like they say in IT, a CIO can’t go wrong by buying IBM or Microsoft even if better, though riskier, options exist. Similarly for the Army it’s so much easier to go in for more T90s than to invest the time, effort or money into helping the DRDO to iron out the kinks in the Arjun, both in terms of its performance and the backend supply chain. And since using imported maal is not considered haarm the Army can also get away with this saying that it’s business is to fight wars and not worry about whether the equipment they use are desi or foreign.

As a result, IMO, we are a $2 trillion economy with the mentality of a $500 billion economy in terms to our approach to war. We expect to fight one week or maybe two weeks by which time the world’s mai baaps like the Amerikis or the Rusikies will enter the fray and stop the schoolyard dishum, dishum.

It takes 50 years minimum to develop a decent MIC. By 2063 India will be, as I said, either the second or third biggest economy and it’s major contenders would be China and/or the US and what would we be doing? Probably going to Russia, which would have an economy the fraction the size of ours and begging for the T140s or whatever tin cans they would be rolling out then.

There has to be a mindset change – we have to take ourselves and what we do (and make) more seriously. Just think of some of the stuff we've heard here. Somebody questioned how indigenous is Arjun, when the competing tank is 100 per cent foreign. And somebody else said Avadi had to get it’s act together before the Army can go for Arjuns – as if problems can and will be fixed without firm orders and a commitment both from the Army as well as the government.

In many ways I think the US arms embargo on China has done the latter a huge favour. It has kick started their MIC. Maybe what they make today is not best in class but given time it will soon get there.

And wither India’s MIC? You can't become a superpower or even a great power on the back of imported arms. You can only fight one or two week wars, the way Pakistan is primed to do. Do our strategic community realise this?


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 12:26 
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-OT-

Shmel RPO is standard issue in IA. For want of a better qualified source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPO-A_Shmel

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8664/70x94i.jpg


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 12:53 
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KrishnaK wrote:
I think only our Navy has had any charter/ambitions of being a strategic power projecting service.
Only the navy can truly project power. This is true of every country. Even the US with bases everywhere(and thus the potential to use the airforce) really uses it's navy for power projection.

India's problem lies primarily in the fact that the Armed forces are kept out of the loop on National Security discussions. This was a very conscious decision by the bureaucracy and the political class. They are specifically told that their job is to fight wars and keep out of everything else. There is no clarity on what the national goals are and the armed forces are kept out of any discussion on it.So why is this a surprise? They come to an independent assessment of how a war would be and gear for that. And yes, the expectation indeed is that we'd never fight a long war.

This is a systemic failure and requires an overhaul of how we approach national power. And the problem cuts both ways. The IAS, IFS and the armed forces are badly in need for greater institutionalised communications channels. It's abundantly clear that neither the IAS nor the IFS(a few individuals aside) really understand military force or it's utility either. The IFS looks on even intelligence agencies(historically one of the most important tasks of a diplomat) in disdain. Sadly both neta and babu are more invested in divide and rule and localizing power.

P.S. I see lots of Pakistan comparisons. The Pakistani problem is the opposite. With the generals in charge purely military goals predominate. Essentially we approach the same point from two very different ends.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 15:37 
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Anujan wrote:
The cons of making it ourselves are obvious: Unit costs might be high, we cannot make the best machine, we cannot make enough of them quickly and so on. Now the cons of importing, in my opinion are far higher.
........................

We pass through a near death experience of fighting an all out multi year war.


Actually the above two are linked, at the current rate, if we decide, that we will be pig headed and say that our defence needs will be met locally or not at all, we will under go a near death, or certain death situation very soon.

Now this simple fact may be galling, but is the truth, the reason why Indian forces ask for the equipment they ask for, in the timeframe that they need is that they know that if they don't get it, they can kiss winning good bye.

As it is Indian forces are HORRENDOUSLY UNDER EQUIPPED AND RUNNING BEHIND THE REARMAMENT SCHEDULE.

What Anjuan has done has taken a ideological position, "in the long term considering various factors, the right thing to do is blah blah blah.."

Absolutely.

But as they say, in long term we are all dead, and that death will come sooner if we follow the teary eyed, "we must make do with Indian solutions or how will they develop" type of appeals, which are all very nice, but also a quick trip to the graveyard.

If we are going to take such ideological position, I believe Nehru's "we dont need Army, we are a peace loving country" is a good enough ideology. They will give similar results.

Quote:
Like Sanku-ji insisting on a smoothbore gun for Arjun. The beauty and convenience of this statement is if it happens by chance, it is a huge "I told you so!" moment and validation for everything that he ever said. If it doesnt happen, then it can always be passed off as something that is going to happen in the future or something that was considered but stonewalled by the obstinate DRDO/Avadi folks.


However to hide the basic impracticality of the suggestions like "dont import till your MIC is up even if it takes 1000000000000000000000000000 years" is to make

1) Personal attacks on those who differ
2) Misrepresent what others are saying.

Anujans above post is excellent example of (2) followed by (1) --> Displaying a mind reading capabilities which are phenomenal, he has figured out the deep latent reasoning behind my desire to see the best type of armament for Arjun. Despite clearly saying that, I hold the OLD GSQR framed in 70s and 80s as th the reason for legacy choice of a rifled gun, and a smooth bore gun is preferred due to being a technically preferable solution.

He has NO QUALMS, in deciding for me what I really meant, and what I really want. He follows this up by another many paragraphs on why I am so evil.
:rotfl:

I have not taken the approach that the real reason that he wants to denude IA of armor based on some pipe dream is because Anujan secretly wishes to have Pakis defeat us, thus enabling more action in BENIS thread (for those who dont get it, that statement is meant to show the absurdity when X makes a claim on behalf of Y)

=========================================

Of course the standard junk rona dhona of not enough support, not enough orders is still there, when it has been shown that 124+124 tank order is a fairly large order for a tank of Arjun class. More than good enough to bootstrap the project.

Either the civvies in India dealing with Armed forces need to stop making excuses and deliver on their primary responsibilities, or get the hell out of the way and let IA take over.

And this is not for DRDO alone, before some one elses emotions get hurt and we have wails of "our MIC is being run down"


Last edited by Sanku on 11 Apr 2013 16:01, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 15:42 
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amit wrote:

I don't know who's to blame but I do think there is a lack of proper strategic thinking.

Similarly for the Army it’s so much easier to go in for more T90s than to invest the time, effort or money into helping the DRDO to iron out the kinks in the Arjun, both in terms of its performance and the backend supply chain.


It is extremely amusing when posters pontificate about things like lack of strategic thinking and base their statements on sheer absurdities.

In India, it is NOT IAs job to help DRDO stop acting like a scooters india unit, it is MODs job.

A lot of rona dhona happens regularly about Navy being better, by actively ignoring (despite being told) -- is that due to historical reasons (primarily both Navy and Navy's capital outlay was peanuts and there was hence no turf battle) -- Navy is in control of its operations.

Navy is allowed to OWN projects, Navy officers are the top guys in Shipyards, Navy has a design beaura attached to it.

Does the IA have any of this? The entire DRDO chain goes directly into civvies at MoD.

But hey deliberately ignoring real world fact is obviously the strength of those who have a upper hand in strategy which they can teach the stupid IA as well? Right?
:rotfl:


Last edited by Sanku on 11 Apr 2013 15:48, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 15:47 
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anjan wrote:
India's problem lies primarily in the fact that the Armed forces are kept out of the loop on National Security discussions. This was a very conscious decision by the bureaucracy and the political class. They are specifically told that their job is to fight wars and keep out of everything else. There is no clarity on what the national goals are and the armed forces are kept out of any discussion on it.So why is this a surprise? .


Brilliant post anjan ji. Fully agree, with a minor nitpick. This was a conscious decision primarily by Nehru, who detested Indian army, and let no occasion go to run it down, preferably publicly, this dates back from the time when IA officers had the spine to stand up to him and tell him off when he talked nonsense, which is of course something he often did, being his core competency, but did not get countered by many except in IA.

So he raised the bogey of a military coup and other such further nonsense, ran IA down to the level to ensure his defeat at the hands of his friends, then washed his hands off the whole business and sulked.

These issues (like many others in the country) stem directly from the executive decisions taken by one man in infancy of our nation.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 15:56 
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Singha wrote:

specialized kit like this armoured bulldozer cannot be drummed up on a hajji armour basis when shit hits fan.....these kind of kit need to be purchased, be part of the orbat and training cycles. managing crisis by congi style hand waving isnt the solution. :lol:


What are you saying Singha saar, Not purchasing 1310 T 90 is 2000 to plan for over next 20 years since Arjun was foreseen in 2000 already to be ready in 2005 give or taken 5 years this way or that is considered perfectly acceptable strategy for Indian defence through robust support for MICs.

Arjuns are just about making the first cut ready in 2008, however they should be part of planning for 2000-12 time period.

Purchase, part of orbat, training, logistics, -- they are sissy issue for wimps. The real patriots have foresight, vision, ability to take bold risks, and a good ability to compare tanks by looking having them do a shoot out at ok corral.

You are demeaning your reputation saar.
:(


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 15:57 
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When comparing with Israel, Israel, their politicians have all been in IDF.

I think that somehow, makes a difference.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 16:04 
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And here I was thinking sadly that we were going to miss out on our free dose of entertainment for today. :wink:


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 17:11 
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Quote:
India's problem lies primarily in the fact that the Armed forces are kept out of the loop on National Security discussions. This was a very conscious decision by the bureaucracy and the political class. They are specifically told that their job is to fight wars and keep out of everything else. There is no clarity on what the national goals are and the armed forces are kept out of any discussion on it.So why is this a surprise? They come to an independent assessment of how a war would be and gear for that. And yes, the expectation indeed is that we'd never fight a long war.


Reread your post.

There has always been a mechanism, just that it is either more misused or abused (perhaps) in the case of India. With the corruption in India I am sure there is no semblance of the original intent.

But all democracies have it and perhaps India is lagging behind in some aspects, but should have a majority of it in place.

However, inherently, diplomacy plays a bigger role - as it should - but the military is always consulted when needed. As a simple example, as we are aware there are military attaches in pretty much every embassy and perhaps consulates.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 18:16 
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amit wrote:
And here I was thinking sadly that we were going to miss out on our free dose of entertainment for today. :wink:


How can that be, you posted, didnt you?

Ah I forgot, cause and effect, and other such logical mechanisms are not always well understood (apart form real world data that is)


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 18:28 
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Rao ji,

I think it's a bigger issue than just a question of whether our armed forces are in the loop or not. I sometimes feel as a people we don't understand our own weight and potential.

This manifests itself in various ways IMO. All the way from timid foreign policy (things like SeS for example) to our reluctance to go after Pak based terrorists.

Again IMO this disdain for local products - due to the greater short term uncertainty associated with them (Anujan dwells on these) stems from this. It's so much easier to go for phoren maal like tin cans.

In short we short sell ourselves in all areas, be it politicians, babus, army officers or even amm Abduls. This IMVHO is the reason for our fetish with foreign maal and our disdain for local stuff - remember even in this discussion, it was asked if the Arjun is really indigenous. I'm sure if it wasn't then we'd have a 300 piece order asap.

JMT


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2013 23:18 
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X-post....
Vipul wrote:
DRDO fires on towards MIRV capability.

...

For instance, after supplying 119 Arjun Mark-I tanks - the order initially was for 124 - DRDO is now developing the Arjun Mark-II and nearly 80 percent of the improvements/changes sought by the Indian Army had already been incorporated. Work on the remaining features is underway and there would be trials this summer to satisfy the user requirements.The Arjun Mark-I has already outperformed the T-90, Saraswat said, adding that the Mark-II would have enhanced night fighting capabilities with advanced equipment for the gunner, driver and commander. There will be better rough terrain and amphibious (fording) mobility, better surveillance and firing capability, as well as increased protection.

An agreement is in place with the army for another lot of 118 - or two regiments - of Arjun Mark II tanks.The Mark-II has a better 120 mm gun, capable of firing anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). DRDO was examining offers from Israel and Belarusfor the new ATGMs.

....


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2013 01:22 
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Interesting snippet with respect to Spike ATGM deal
Quote:
The force is keen to begin inducting the new ATGMs soon to ensure each infantry battalion deployed in the plains has eight ATGM launchers (each with 12 missiles), and those in the mountains have at least two, by the end of the 12th Plan (2017). "Even mechanised infantry battalions will get them later," said the source.

How does this work? Every company will have two ATGM launchers?

--Ashish


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2013 01:52 
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Sanku-saar, point about Pakjab getting riddled with rat holes is accurate. But from whatever one hears of their way of thinking, they are more worried about square footage being surrendered per day in a short war, rather than ultimate survival in a long drawn out war (like what Saddam faced) against an overwhelming foe. So their armor will be running around, outside these areas, rather than switching off and pillboxing inside crowded areas. The crowded areas, I suspect, will be left to the beards with ATGMs. Best is to identify pakjabi quislings in khaki before any war and use them to shepherd such areas, while staying outside with a foot on the food supply tap.

Unlike khan, India has no point in "occupying" a potty like pakistan, once the flush handle is turned.


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2013 02:47 
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amit,
With all due respect, China's MIC isn't going anywhere ours isn't. For all the brouhaha about independent development, they are getting design help from the Russians if not importing wholesale. China tomtoming about their independent MIC is just making virtue out of necessity. They'd kill to be in our shoes. This post doesn't mean I advocate importing entire systems either.


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