Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 16 Apr 2013 21:29

@minhazmerchant 2m
Key stat from TimesNow survey--JDU down 20 to 19 in Bihar. BJP up 15 to 21 in Gujarat. Food for thought for Nitish

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 16 Apr 2013 21:33

Timesnow poll suggests a 1996 type situation with a 3rd or 4th front propped up by INC.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 16 Apr 2013 21:34

@albatrossinfo 1m
Lessons to the patriarch; CVoter says "indecisiveness in announcing a leader is costing the BJP some 40-50 seats"

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 22:08

Singha wrote:whose side is sushil mode the bihar BJP chief on?

the choices made the regional state chiefs like him are critical as they control blocks of MPs on the ground and not the useless dilli billi types.

they have field armies under the control unlike the "HQ staff" type jernails. the troops will be loyal to their field generals who fight with them in the battle not to herr jodl or kietel back in east prussia.

Yes Sir, absolutely, and these people are those whose views are not known in the media. A lot of them take their cues from what RSS will eventually decide.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 16 Apr 2013 22:15

To me there are only 2 options. A) Declare NM as PM candidate and take a gamble - you could boom or go bust,

Do not declare a PM candidate and decide after polls. 141 seats means they are 30-40 seats short. But it is still one year to election and there can be consolidation as election approaches.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 22:18

Sushupti wrote: You may have better understanding of the things but to me it's beyond my comprehension how Loh Purush can bring vote to the polling booths in 2014 if he couldn't do it in 2004 or 2009?

Well if you are taking that stand, he got people to voting booths in 1990s, in four elections.

2004 was a glitch, in any case it was ABV+Pramod Mahajan show, why is that loss being blamed on Advani? 2009 was the only time BJP lost under Advani. Big deal, I thought BRF had already decided that EVM magic was responsible?

In any case one does not decide on the basis of one election.

ramana wrote:LKA had his chances in 2004 and 2009. He was roundly defeated and has not paid the price for the defeats. He had numerous chances to bring the UPA down with no confidence votes and he never brought one NC motion on the numerous issues.

What about the 123 deal Gurudev?

And what good would a no confidence motion have done anyway? Symbolic fight? There were censure motions brought over FDI right? What happened?

Lets not blame Advani for what he has not done.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 22:21

Sushupti wrote:@albatrossinfo 1m
Lessons to the patriarch; CVoter says "indecisiveness in announcing a leader is costing the BJP some 40-50 seats"

Where did albatross pull this out of now? The frustrating thing about election season is that it seems to give everyone a liberty to pull numbers out of their musharraff.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Apr 2013 22:25

Sanku wrote:^^^ O boy, what comedy, half of the mythical D4 is in Modi "camp", and what about many many other strong BJP leaders? What about Utkhand leaders?, Dhumal? Chtgarh? Sushil Modi? Kkta leaders? Goa? Punjab? Jammu?

The hilarious thing about the D4 is that everyone seems to have a different idea who they and their lackeys are.

The graphic of Modi and LKA camps is a malicious attempt at stirring up trouble or causing dissension. Why people here are giving credence to these ridiculous claims is beyond me.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 16 Apr 2013 22:30

Sanku wrote:
Sushupti wrote:@albatrossinfo 1m
Lessons to the patriarch; CVoter says "indecisiveness in announcing a leader is costing the BJP some 40-50 seats"
Where did albatross pull this out of now? The frustrating thing about election season is that it seems to give everyone a liberty to pull numbers out of their musharraff.

Sanku ji, in my post i had raised specific questions on what lka brings to the table. Please answer that. And as i pointed out, no party which wants to win after being out for 10 yrs ever goes to election with a leader who lost them the last election.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 16 Apr 2013 22:33

Sushupti wrote: You may have better understanding of the things but to me it's beyond my comprehension how Loh Purush can bring vote to the polling booths in 2014 if he couldn't do it in 2004 or 2009?
Well if you are taking that stand, he got people to voting booths in 1990s, in four elections.

2004 was a glitch, in any case it was ABV+Pramod Mahajan show, why is that loss being blamed on Advani? 2009 was the only time BJP lost under Advani. Big deal, I thought BRF had already decided that EVM magic was responsible?

In any case one does not decide on the basis of one election.

That was before "Jinnah secular" episode with an emotional issue like RJB. If i am correct Vajpayee wasn't in the favor of pre-poning the elections. It was Afvani+ Mahjan show. Remember Vajpayee anointing Mahajan as Laxman and Loh Purush as new Ram of the party in Mumbai.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 16 Apr 2013 22:48

I am not convinced with C-voter poll. The INC is loosing 90+ seats - 25 seats in AP, 8 seats in TN, 15 seats in UP say 5-7 seats elsewhere where BJP is not the main opposition. The rest 45 seats BJP is the primary opposition. I think the number should be closer to 160 than 141. So another 20-25 seats are needed.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:00

muraliravi wrote: Sanku ji, in my post i had raised specific questions on what lka brings to the table. Please answer that. And as i pointed out, no party which wants to win after being out for 10 yrs ever goes to election with a leader who lost them the last election.

I can agree with the bolded part, not being successful demands sacrifices It is human nature. I am also glad you agree that Advani's role if any was limited to last elections.

To what LKA brings to the table? I did already answer that to another poster (Arjun?)

1) Wide spread acceptability across NDA.
2) Experience of party building/elections etc.
3) Experience of running central govt at highest levels.
4) A mode of entry to provide NaMo a soft launch into National power (as opposed to hard launch being asked for)
5) A decent track record as HM.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:03

Sushupti wrote: That was before "Jinnah secular" episode with an emotional issue like RJB. If i am correct Vajpayee wasn't in the favor of pre-poning the elections. It was Afvani+ Mahjan show. Remember Vajpayee anointing Mahajan as Laxman and Loh Purush as new Ram of the party in Mumbai.

I never get how one statement takes away years of hard work and ideology. I think RSS erred greatly by reacting like it did. There was space for a more mature response.

We cant do taquiya?

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 16 Apr 2013 23:13

Sanku wrote:
muraliravi wrote: Sanku ji, in my post i had raised specific questions on what lka brings to the table. Please answer that. And as i pointed out, no party which wants to win after being out for 10 yrs ever goes to election with a leader who lost them the last election.
I can agree with the bolded part, not being successful demands sacrifices It is human nature. I am also glad you agree that Advani's role if any was limited to last elections.

To what LKA brings to the table? I did already answer that to another poster (Arjun?)

1) Wide spread acceptability across NDA.
2) Experience of party building/elections etc.
3) Experience of running central govt at highest levels.
4) A mode of entry to provide NaMo a soft launch into National power (as opposed to hard launch being asked for)
5) A decent track record as HM.

Sorry sir, never for a moment did i anywhere suggest that lka was not responsible for the 2009 defeat.

As to your points, these aspects are not going to get bjp to cross 160 seats. Boss u need motivated cadre to win, everything else is next. Bjp cadre will quit en masse if lka is the nominee. Period

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 16 Apr 2013 23:14

1) Wide spread acceptability across NDA.
2) Experience of party building/elections etc.
3) Experience of running central govt at highest levels.
4) A mode of entry to provide NaMo a soft launch into National power (as opposed to hard launch being asked for)
5) A decent track record as HM.

Sanku saar, on the other side of the coin, LKA ji also brings the following things to the table:

1. Inability to inspire non-core voters - most important.
2. 86 years of age - singularly non-inspiring to the internet-generation
3. Perceived collusion with the c-system by not taking up issues effectively
4. perceived failure at stemming the loss of KA, HP

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Apr 2013 23:15

Sanku wrote: BTW, I am assuming that in any event Modi will lead the campaign, this assumption is not incorrect given that he is head of the body for elections.

Modi has certainly not been appointed Chairman of the National Election Committee. He has only returned to the parliamentary board after six years.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Apr 2013 23:18

Singha wrote:declaring no candidate is better than LKA as declared candidate. people will take one look at his track record and advanced age and run away as fast as possible.

in short he is the ideal choice of INC supporters!

Better to be honest to the people. If Modi is to be shoved aside after the election, make it clear up front.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 16 Apr 2013 23:19

sanku jis posts are quite on the dot.....and I agree with a lot of them.

are you defence/political background, sankuji??

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Apr 2013 23:22

Atri wrote: Be patient, biraders... NM's time is coming.. He is getting their as fast as he can.. not faster, nor slower.. let him take his time.. meanwhile, vote for BJP, no matter who is candidate..

The problem is that many people won't see much difference between the Brajesh Mishras, Advanis and the Pramod Mahajans on one side and the Sibals and the Moilys on the other.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Apr 2013 23:24

The biggest problem with Advani is his absolute servility to the Maino gang.

One curt warning from Maino and Advani is crawling on the floor apologizing.

It is said that he is compromised and blackmailed.

Not to mention all the Jinnah nonsense that he believes in. One day he is proud of the RJB movement and the next day he is talking about the RJB action as "the saddest day of his life."

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:30

muraliravi wrote: Sorry sir, never for a moment did i anywhere suggest that lka was not responsible for the 2009 defeat.

I did not say that you said that. I said that thankfully you are not blaming LKA for anything other than 2009 (some people are blaming him for partition of India)

As to your points, these aspects are not going to get bjp to cross 160 seats. Boss u need motivated cadre to win, everything else is next. Bjp cadre will quit en masse if lka is the nominee. Period

Again nothing on the ground suggests that people will quit. They may not be enthused, but quitting is unlikely.

However, since I agree with cadre motivation point, and to that I have said that Modi's involvement will be needed and will be sufficient.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:32

Pranav wrote:
Atri wrote: Be patient, biraders... NM's time is coming.. He is getting their as fast as he can.. not faster, nor slower.. let him take his time.. meanwhile, vote for BJP, no matter who is candidate..
The problem is that many people won't see much difference between the Brajesh Mishras, Advanis and the Pramod Mahajans on one side and the Sibals and the Moilys on the other.

Yes there exists certain amount of lack of discernment in average junta. However, average junta does not vote the gleat leadel in India. They vote for the local candidate.

Unless you are saying that Indians voted Sonia, in which case you need to rethink your thesis that a good leader will win elections.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Apr 2013 23:33

Advani and Co should take sanyas at that juncture in ones life he can barely get past getting through his daily routine how can one expect him to do desh seva ? Majority of our problems have been caused by these buddha gang ruling the roost at a juncture where they should be planning for sanyas and visiting chaar dhams they become senti and forgiving types and fck up on the foreign policy front ABV and MMS too are guilty of the same and old age plays a big role in such fck ups.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:33

mahadevbhu wrote:sanku jis posts are quite on the dot.....and I agree with a lot of them.

are you defence/political background, sankuji??

Thank you Sir. I am afraid I will pass the question on the background.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:35

negi wrote:Advani and Co should take sanyas at that juncture in ones life he can barely get past getting through his daily routine how can one expect him to do desh seva ? Majority of our problems have been caused by these buddha gang ruling the roost at a juncture where they should be planning for sanyas and visiting chaar dhams they become senti and forgiving types and fck up on the foreign policy front ABV and MMS too are guilty of the same and old age plays a big role in such fck ups.

Au contrarie negiullah, PVNR, ABV et al could do a great job compared to young RG because they were old. MMS is generally a failure, nothing age related. He has been like this for a long time.

No one is perfect, and f ups will be there with anyone, but India is a country for old men, demographic shifts notwithstanding (and no I am not old

)

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Apr 2013 23:36

RG is younger but then he is a chootiyanandan . He is a sample of a different kind.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 16 Apr 2013 23:36

Pranav wrote:
Atri wrote: Be patient, biraders... NM's time is coming.. He is getting their as fast as he can.. not faster, nor slower.. let him take his time.. meanwhile, vote for BJP, no matter who is candidate..
The problem is that many people won't see much difference between the Brajesh Mishras, Advanis and the Pramod Mahajans on one side and the Sibals and the Moilys on the other.

I do not know why BM is with LKA and PM.. MH misses Mahajan the most.. for all his shortcomings (in professional life and personal which ultimately took his life)..

even if what you say is true, the situation is such that anyone is better than MMS. Yet it has not arrived upon the collective mind of people. for that, they require a kick in their groins. which will be delivered in 2014-15.. the bad karma of MMS and 3G will culminate then, and I want them to suffer those consequences..

@nachiket ji,

it is a game which is so far being played very well. I recommend you enjoy..

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Apr 2013 23:37

Sanku wrote: Unless you are saying that Indians voted Sonia, in which case you need to rethink your thesis that a good leader will win elections.

You need a person far superior to the average rent-seekers to create a wave.

Advani is only an ordinary rent seeker. He seems to be scared of the dossiers the Congress may have on his relatives. Digvijay has promised that such dossiers will not be used but Advani needs to mind his behavior.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Apr 2013 23:38

BM is just another closet Gandhi family chamcha. Most of the elitist types in BJP are .

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Apr 2013 23:40

In my opinion most of the 1950s and earlier generation is a big chamcha of Gandhi-Nehru clan they are just too high on their own zam zam. If not a chamcha they have a soft corner for them to an extent that when it comes to taking action on ground agains them they resort to downhill skiing.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Apr 2013 23:40

Pranav wrote:
Singha wrote:declaring no candidate is better than LKA as declared candidate. people will take one look at his track record and advanced age and run away as fast as possible.

in short he is the ideal choice of INC supporters!
Better to be honest to the people. If Modi is to be shoved aside after the election, make it clear up front.

Why should they?
Is there any concrete benefit that accrues if Modi is declared now?
"Better to be honest" ? For whom is it better?
Are election seats won by declaring now and people voting based on this factor alone?
Get real.
Your impatience is immaterial.
The election is still a long way away!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:44

Pranav wrote:
Sanku wrote: Unless you are saying that Indians voted Sonia, in which case you need to rethink your thesis that a good leader will win elections.
You need a person far superior to the average rent-seekers to create a wave.

Advani is only an ordinary rent seeker. He seems to be scared of the dossiers the Congress may have on his relatives. Digvijay has promised that such dossiers will not be used but Advani needs to mind his behavior.

Yeah right,

BTW no living individual has yet created a wave in India.

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 16 Apr 2013 23:45

I still don't get Sanku saar's rationale (and he is not alone obviously). It is well known that only Modi has been able to inspire not just the BJP cadre but also the apolitical ones, especially among the young gen.
Even if we believe that with LKA at the helm, BJP/NDA forms the next govt., other than gracing the history books as India's nth PM, what will LKA achieve? Paraphrasing Narendra Kohli ji, can LKA be trusted to establish a Dharmarajya? Where is the indicator in LKA's past that points to an ability to establish Dharmarajya? Why anoint him just for the sake of paying off his RJB-movement debt? Is there any indication that a declaration of LKA's leadership pre-poll will actually get mulla mulayam and niku on the side of dharma? mullaM and niku are slimy characters and cannot be trusted to stand by the dharma.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Apr 2013 23:49

Neela wrote:
Pranav wrote: Better to be honest to the people. If Modi is to be shoved aside after the election, make it clear up front.
Why should they?
Is there any concrete benefit that accrues if Modi is declared now?
"Better to be honest" ? For whom is it better?
Are election seats won by declaring now and people voting based on this factor alone?
Get real.
Your impatience is immaterial.
The election is still a long way away!

Better for the people. If BJP makes clear that Modi will not be PM candidate then Modi's supporters will have a chance to evaluate their options. If BJP does not want to be an instrument for bringing competent patriots to power then other instruments will be required.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 16 Apr 2013 23:51

Abhijit wrote:Paraphrasing Narendra Kohli ji, can LKA be trusted to establish a Dharmarajya? Where is the indicator in LKA's past that points to an ability to establish Dharmarajya? Why anoint him just for the sake of paying off his RJB-movement debt? Is there any indication that a declaration of LKA's leadership pre-poll will actually get mulla mulayam and niku on the side of dharma? mullaM and niku are slimy characters and cannot be trusted to stand by the dharma.

to remove dronacharya, you need to kill ashwatthama the elephant and shout out the same loudly barring a minor detail about the deceased being an elephant and not human.

as i understand, LKA is that elephant... or to give another metaphor, he is ghatotkacha...

plenty of metaphors only.. dharmarajya will come ultimately. was it ghatotkacha OR Arjuna OR Bhima OR krishna who brought it? no... it was Yudhishthira who was shielded by all these guys..

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Apr 2013 23:57

Abhijit wrote:I still don't get Sanku saar's rationale (and he is not alone obviously). It is well known that only Modi has been able to inspire not just the BJP cadre but also the apolitical ones, especially among the young gen.

Abhijit ji, I have been saying different things at different times, so it is entirely possible that I have been tripping over myself. I have advocated Advani on a number of different grounds at different times in different contexts.

In case of the statement above, my contention has been that inspiring the apolitical younger gen may not be of value in terms of actual votes, since they typically do not vote despite everything, and also we have no numbers to support the motion.

If there is a NaMo wave, it has not been seen in last set of elections just a few months before, which have been dominated by the business as usual combination of candidates, caste equation money etc.

I agree that Modi can inspire the BJP cadre, but in my view, that he can do even if not THE candidate but a important member of the leadership body.

Even if we believe that with LKA at the helm, BJP/NDA forms the next govt., other than gracing the history books as India's nth PM, what will LKA achieve? Paraphrasing Narendra Kohli ji, can LKA be trusted to establish a Dharmarajya? .

Sir even NaMo wont be able to do that, let us have practical expectations. The system is badly broken, no one has magic wand. LKA as PM can provide the shield for NaMo to work on making incremental fixes as HM etc and succeding.

As Shiv said on the thread in Strat forum. Advani first, no need to destroy the hope in Modi by saddling him with this disaster (the country in current shape) just yet.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 17 Apr 2013 00:11

Sanku wrote:
Abhijit wrote:I still don't get Sanku saar's rationale (and he is not alone obviously). It is well known that only Modi has been able to inspire not just the BJP cadre but also the apolitical ones, especially among the young gen.
Abhijit ji, I have been saying different things at different times, so it is entirely possible that I have been tripping over myself. I have advocated Advani on a number of different grounds at different times in different contexts.

In case of the statement above, my contention has been that inspiring the apolitical younger gen may not be of value in terms of actual votes, since they typically do not vote despite everything, and also we have no numbers to support the motion.

If there is a NaMo wave, it has not been seen in last set of elections just a few months before, which have been dominated by the business as usual combination of candidates, caste equation money etc.

I agree that Modi can inspire the BJP cadre, but in my view, that he can do even if not THE candidate but a important member of the leadership body.

Even if we believe that with LKA at the helm, BJP/NDA forms the next govt., other than gracing the history books as India's nth PM, what will LKA achieve? Paraphrasing Narendra Kohli ji, can LKA be trusted to establish a Dharmarajya? .
Sir even NaMo wont be able to do that, let us have practical expectations. The system is badly broken, no one has magic wand. LKA as PM can provide the shield for NaMo to work on making incremental fixes as HM etc and succeding.

As Shiv said on the thread in Strat forum. Advani first, no need to destroy the hope in Modi by saddling him with this disaster (the country in current shape) just yet.

I dont get this, why do advani supporters want modi to campaign for advani. Do it urself mr advani. Modi does not need anything from advani, his own record speaks and he can showcase his vision himself with support from cadre.

If the budda who cannot give way to people better than him, then let the guy rot and campaign for himself and motivate the cadre himself

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Apr 2013 00:19

muraliravi wrote: I dont get this, why do advani supporters want modi to campaign for advani. Do it urself mr advani. Modi does not need anything from advani, his own record speaks and he can showcase his vision himself with support from cadre.

If the budda who cannot give way to people better than him, then let the guy rot and campaign for himself and motivate the cadre himself

That is very childish Sir, "make me the PM or I wont work and throw a tantrum"? I do think Modi is a much much better team player than this he is not Kalyan Singh or Yeddi or Uma bharti. He did not even yearn for CM ship and only took what was entrusted to him and did not chase Keshubhai patel away but tried to work with him.

The decision taken will involve a number of factors and discussion among all senior leaders including RSS. It should and will be a team decision and the follow up should be a team effort.

And oh, Modi does not need anything from Advani? If not for Advani and the unstinting support by BJP, he would be history post 2002. So Advani has already given him more than he can possibly ever reciprocate. I do not think he is one of individualistic ungrateful westerners who will run things on transactional relationship basis.

Forget the past, going forward, Advani can give him a soft launch into national scene, and shield him from a number of attacks, which in fact are being done even now.

If Modi does what you want him to do, that in itself shows he is not a deserving candidate (but I am confident that he is)

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 Apr 2013 00:22

sanku maharaj

LKA is too compromised to be BJP's PM candidate. Same with SS. if BJP needs to make a non-Modi PM, it will be different from LKA/SS types.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 17 Apr 2013 00:26

Abhijit wrote:I still don't get Sanku saar's rationale (and he is not alone obviously). It is well known that only Modi has been able to inspire not just the BJP cadre but also the apolitical ones, especially among the young gen.
Even if we believe that with LKA at the helm, BJP/NDA forms the next govt., other than gracing the history books as India's nth PM, what will LKA achieve? Paraphrasing Narendra Kohli ji, can LKA be trusted to establish a Dharmarajya? Where is the indicator in LKA's past that points to an ability to establish Dharmarajya? Why anoint him just for the sake of paying off his RJB-movement debt? Is there any indication that a declaration of LKA's leadership pre-poll will actually get mulla mulayam and niku on the side of dharma? mullaM and niku are slimy characters and cannot be trusted to stand by the dharma.

Sanku has talked about HM for NM. I have said deputy-PM for NM. The idea is to give him a platform at the center. Where is the question of being shoved out? Right now he is like Abhimanyu -surrounded on all sides.