Indian Naval Discussion

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Apr 2013 18:56

RajitO

regarding the heartburn

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 Apr 2013 19:32

Surya wrote:RajitO

regarding the heartburn

On an open forum like BR, this will have to do

http://aw1tim.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/ ... -goodness/

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Apr 2013 19:33

thanks Rajit

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2013 20:22

Sounds like bams is needed to do the loitering and in has already sent in a expression of interest. They look like complementary systems.

We need a six legged thanator type creature to deal with plan submarine ops

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Apr 2013 20:29

RajitO wrote:
indranilroy wrote:IMHO India should invest in jet-powered strategic bombers. And I mean bomb trucks, not the Su-30s. Simple, cheap, docile, but fast (800 kmph fast).

P.S. I know this has been discussed to death here. I just needed to get it out of my system once.
Well, would you like a milkshake and some fries with that?

If you do 30-min home-delivery, sure. Why not?

RajitO wrote: Name me one strategic system that is also simple and cheap and you can have the keys to the city.

Like a B-52, Tu-16/H-6 etc. Nothing fancy. Two jet engines, wings with hardpoints for large missiles. Body with launchers for dumb or guided bombs, but lots of them.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2013 20:43

Problem is nobody makes them new anymore unless we buy tu16 clones from china. Both superpowers have old inventory that is used for low hrs.

Designing a new one ...pakda looks like only one coming up that might be on table for india.will be stealthy, fast, packed with mission sensors and ew, with a proper internal bay.

I am assuming you dont want a 737 carrying alcm and jdams...the fuselage, stress points, are not exactly great for heavy bomber role. The p8 will carry some 2 harpoons inline below fuselage and 4 under the wings, with a few more in internal bay like depth charges and mines. Not exactly a heavy bomber....a couple mkis could manage that payload

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 23 Apr 2013 22:31

indranilroy wrote:
RajitO wrote: Name me one strategic system that is also simple and cheap and you can have the keys to the city.
Like a B-52, Tu-16/H-6 etc. Nothing fancy. Two jet engines, wings with hardpoints for large missiles. Body with launchers for dumb or guided bombs, but lots of them.

Do post a pic of a 2-engined B-52 when you come across one. The one I saw 20 feet away from me had 8 engines but maybe they came out with one of those special edition ones which everyone else missed!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Apr 2013 22:32

Singha wrote:Problem is nobody makes them new anymore unless we buy tu16 clones from china. Both superpowers have old inventory that is used for low hrs.

I agree. And I feel China is smart in that respect.

Singha wrote: Designing a new one ...pakda looks like only one coming up that might be on table for india.will be stealthy, fast, packed with mission sensors and ew, with a proper internal bay.

I am hoping that the PAKDA comes out like a simple next iteration of the Tu-160.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Apr 2013 22:39

RajitO wrote:
indranilroy wrote: Like a B-52, Tu-16/H-6 etc. Nothing fancy. Two jet engines, wings with hardpoints for large missiles. Body with launchers for dumb or guided bombs, but lots of them.
Do post a pic of a 2-engined B-52 when you come across one. The one I saw 20 feet away from me had 8 engines but maybe they came out with one of those special edition ones which everyone else missed!

I said 'like' the B-52. The B-52 has eight engines, but they are not that powerful. For example, the 2 engine of the 787's s put generate as much thrust as the 8 engines of the B-52.

By the way, have you seen how the B-52 looks from inside?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Apr 2013 22:39

the service ceiling should be raised above 60kft.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Apr 2013 00:56

indranilroy wrote: I said 'like' the B-52. The B-52 has eight engines, but they are not that powerful. For example, the 2 engine of the 787's s put generate as much thrust as the 8 engines of the B-52.

By the way, have you seen how the B-52 looks from inside?

First Class was awesome, Business was ok but Economy was really cramped! What did you think? The B747's Double Decker was better...no?

John · Post by **John** » 24 Apr 2013 00:58

indranilroy wrote:
I said 'like' the B-52. The B-52 has eight engines, but they are not that powerful. For example, the 2 engine of the 787's s put generate as much thrust as the 8 engines of the B-52.

8 engine design was helpful during vietnam war where pilots where able to safely fly back even when 2 engines were knocked out on one side.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Apr 2013 01:20

RajitO wrote:
indranilroy wrote: By the way, have you seen how the B-52 looks from inside?
First Class was awesome, Business was ok but Economy was really cramped! What did you think? The B747's Double Decker was better...no?

Oh! They did not let you in on the added services of the B-52. In mid-flight, they open the floor of the B-52. It is all hawa-hawai after that, space-hi-space.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Apr 2013 01:59

Indranil what size/payload bomber we can have if we use :

1. 6 Kaveri engines

2. 8 Kaveri engines

Is it possible to make a vulcan style bomber using kaveris?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Apr 2013 02:13

Right now, 0.

We can't even build HS-478 replacements. And nobody else who can, will build a plane around Kaveri.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Apr 2013 02:17

good grief

lets get the damn Saras up and running first

and LCA with Kaveri before we go on to fancy bombers

if UPA2 has not ruined the economy fully by then

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 24 Apr 2013 03:35

indranilroy wrote:
RajitO wrote: First Class was awesome, Business was ok but Economy was really cramped! What did you think? The B747's Double Decker was better...no?
Oh! They did not let you in on the added services of the B-52. In mid-flight, they open the floor of the B-52. It is all hawa-hawai after that, space-hi-space.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 24 Apr 2013 06:25

another crap chitchat engulfed most of the thread same here.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 24 Apr 2013 07:05

Indian navy cannot fight any war without indigenous weapons.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Apr 2013 08:31

sarabpal.s wrote:another crap chitchat engulfed most of the thread same here.

Agreed.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chin ... 67305.html

...this time from the dragon's mouth.

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Apr 2013 09:05

Use the under development MTRA=MTA as a bomber.

Develop CFT for Su-30MKI and FGFA to use them as mid range bombers like F-111

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Apr 2013 23:45

Flankers ,including the SU-34 have range,payload and endurance limitations,even with in-flight refuelling.Only a dedicated strat. bomber like the TU Backfires or Blackjacks (which can carry more missiles ) will do true justice.However,a sqd. of SU-34s would be an important asset in the Tibetan or A&N theatre.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/22042013-p ... -analysis/

P-3C Vs. P-8I: India, Pakistan And The Naval Balance – Analysis

By IPCS

By Vijay Sakhuja

Naval aviation is an important part of the naval strategy of India and Pakistan. The Pakistan navy took the lead in the sub-continent in terms of introducing the Atlantique long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Sea King helicopters fitted with anti-ship missiles. It also acquired the US supplied P3C Orion with Harpoon missiles.

Although the Indian naval leadership had acknowledged the role of and the need for long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) aircraft as force multipliers, these platforms were late entrants in the Indian naval force structure. The current Indian LRMP inventory comprises of the Russian origin Tupolev-142 and Ilyushin-38, which have been upgraded; and a few Dornier aircraft. There have been attempts to fit missiles on some of these platforms with mixed results.

In 2009, India signed a contract worth US$ 3.9 billion with Boeing to supply 8 P-8 Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA). The first P-8I (I for the Indian variant) was handed over to the Indian navy in December 2012 and is currently undergoing trials and crew training. The balance seven aircraft will be delivered in 2013 (two) and 2015 (seven). India is the first international customer for the P-8, and the acquisition of the platform is a good example of the growing Indo-US naval cooperation.

The on-board equipment of the P-8I is similar to that of the P-8A of the US navy, but a number of equipment and sub-assemblies developed by Indian Defence Public Sector Undertaking (DPSU) and private companies have been fitted. The P-8I has a range of over 1200 nautical miles, is capable of in-flight refuelling, and can remain on task at a station for 4 hours. Its weapon suite includes the Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile, Mk-54 torpedoes, and depth charges.

The Harpoon missile is not new to the Indian sub-continent and therefore merits attention. In 2005, the US transferred nine P3C Orion aircraft and 60 Harpoon (40 air-launched and 20 ship launched) missiles to Pakistan. The total package – including a ‘close-in-weapon system’ was worth US$ 970 million. There were concerns among Indian naval planners, as the US had defended the sale of the hardware citing Pakistan’s legitimate self-defence capability.

In May 2011, two Pakistan navy P3C Orion aircraft were destroyed in a terrorist attack on PNS Mehran naval airbase in Karachi. During the 21st meeting of the US-Pakistan Defence Consultative Group (DCG) in December 2012, Pakistan had requested the US for replacements of the P3C Orion aircraft to make up for the losses and it was noted, “The provision of three or four more such aircraft would also help increase the counterterrorism capacity of Pakistani navy.”

The P-8I aircraft is designed for a number of roles and missions including surveillance, reconnaissance, detection, and prosecution of surface and subsurface targets at sea, imaging targets in the littorals, and search and rescue. The Arabian Sea is likely to be high on Indian navy’s deployment priorities where it must contend with the Pakistan navy.

The Pakistan navy has acquired Augusta 90 B submarines fitted with AIP system and there are plans to equip these platforms with Harpoon Block II missiles. Interestingly, the Pakistan naval leadership has noted that these submarines can be modified to deliver nuclear weapons. There have been speculations that Israel may have developed technological capability to miniaturise a nuclear warhead to be fitted on a Harpoon missile. Apparently, the US navy had spotted missiles being tested by an Israeli submarine in the Indian Ocean. It is quite unlikely that Pakistan has the technological knowhow to develop a miniaturised nuclear warhead of such sophistication unless it can obtain assistance from China, which has supported its nuclear weapons programme.

At another level, it is interesting that the Indian navy did not explore the possibility of equipping the P-8I with the Brahmos missile. There could have been at least two reasons: first, the Brahmos is a joint project of the Indian and Russian companies called Brahmos Aerospace, and there may be contractual limitations precluding its fitment on US origin platforms. Second, India has been attempting to diversify its military acquisitions to avoid overdependence on a single source; and in that context, the US naval hardware is a good alternative.

Finally, the P-8I is a significant addition to the Indian navy’s armoury. It is a force multiplier and can significantly augment the maritime air surveillance, reconnaissance, and combat capabilities of the Indian navy. It would have to be cleverly deployed keeping in mind that the Pakistan navy is also equipped with Harpoon missiles and has a good knowledge of the missile’s technical parameters and exploitation doctrine. However, the P-8I is a technologically advanced platform as compared to the P3C Orion, and can offer technological edge over the Pakistan navy.

Vijay Sakhuja
Director (Research), Indian Council of World Affairs, New Delhi
E-mail: Sakhuja.v@gmail.com

John · Post by **John** » 25 Apr 2013 01:08

Considering the avalanche of S-300s has without dedicated support, Tu-22m has little change of even getting few 100 km in at least Tu-160 can hug the terrain but even that would do little good against Tor knockoffs PLA operates.

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Apr 2013 01:20

John wrote:Considering the avalanche of S-300s has without dedicated support, Tu-22m has little change of even getting few 100 km in at least Tu-160 can hug the terrain but even that would do little good against Tor knockoffs PLA operates.

Yes. But this is not the case with IN.
Even over Tibet, the range and the dash speeds make Tu-22M3's relevant as they can fly around the dangerous sectors and attack from behind. Can't the rear be protected with similar systems?? Well thats an advantage for IAF if the enemy has to spread his AA assets that way.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Apr 2013 23:37

INS Vikramaditya poised to meet latest deadline

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 26 Apr 2013 09:53

The Iranian navy has built these miniture Ekranoplan crafts. What are Ekranoplans? Originally the Russians developed these crafts in the 80s (or was it 70s) to fly fast & sneak underneath radar to launch a (nuclear) payload against the American fleets. They sandwich a pocket of air underneath their wings to give them some lift.

Its a GREAT idea and India should build a few and use them both as patrol boats and in times of war.

The advantage over an aircraft is these ekranoplans can rest on the sea whereas airplanes have to fly back to base (which may be cruise missile attacked beyond belief)

Iran's mini-Ekranoplans

The original Russian Ekranoplan

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 26 Apr 2013 11:51

^^ hehe do they use water to fly back after taking 'rest' at sea ? It is useless gimmick has no use other than traditional one. Need either a large supply ship nearby if they want to 'rest' at the sea and continue mission after a while. That ship will be attacked inevitably and whole fleets of these sitting ducks along with it. oo, ground staff will enjoy working underwater inspecting subsystems lol and submarines would be on killing spree.

maz · Post by **maz** » 27 Apr 2013 20:58

It would appear that MDL has been installing and STW the LRSAM / MF-STAR system on the first P-15A Kolkata since late 2012. Let us hope that the ship is delivered this year. And that the SAM system is operational.

Can people update us on whats been happening lately on the P-15A program?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Apr 2013 09:07

DCNS insists Scorpene project is on track

DCNS is the original manufacturer of the Scorpene submarine and we have all the know-how and design authority to perform TOTs [transfer of technology] for the complete submarine. We have provided MDL with technical assistance beyond contractual obligations in order to overcome teething problems and we will continue to do so until [the] successful completion of the project, Bernard Buisson, managing director of DCNS-India, told The Hindu over email when asked about the fallout of Navantia pulling out its consultants from the project.

While Navantia and French firm DCN (which later became DCNS) had jointly developed the Scorpenes, the two parted ways in 2010 following a spat, with DCNS becoming the only manufacturer of the diesel-electric submarines.

In his detailed response, Mr. Buisson chose to tacitly blame MDL for delaying the project for construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy, attributing the teething problems the yard faced and ostensibly overcome to its lack of submarine building experience in the last 15 years as also to the contractual obligation of building the entire class in India.

“….MDL had stopped manufacturing submarines for more than 15 years. Indeed, no shipyard can retain the expertise, know-how and trained staff if there is no permanent activity to maintain a minimum level of competence.

“Another specificity of this project is that all the six submarines are being built in MDL. Usually, for such contracts involving complex TOTs, the first of class (first submarine) is always manufactured at the OEM’s [original equipment manufacturer] shipyard with on-the-job training (OJT) from the buyer’s shipyard who can thus acquire know-how more rapidly,” he said.

The MDL had now been able to manufacture hulls of all six submarines as fast and with the same level of quality as DCNS would in its shipyard in France, he added.

According to Mr. Buisson, MDL’s complex procurement procedures too contributed to the delay.

“… The procurement of a large quantity of equipment from many different overseas suppliers is not an easy task and some of these foreign small and medium enterprises are not used to deal[ing] directly with foreign shipyards like MDL who have complex procurement procedures.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Apr 2013 09:05

SP Naval Forces Feb-March Issue

http://www.spsnavalforces.net/ebook/31012013.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Apr 2013 15:32

Upgraded Kilo submarine Sindhurakshak reached Mumbai today she sailed from Russia on Jan 29. On her journey lasting three months she visited foreign ports such as Cartagena Spain , Alexandria and Port Said Egypt .

Upgrade installed more than 10 systems of Indian and foreign origin, including sonar system "Ushus" ,ESM/Radar Porpoise ,Club-S missile & upgraded cooling systems.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Apr 2013 15:39

Irregularities in 100 Black Shark Torpedo Deal ( via MOD Press )

The contract for procurement of Black Shark torpedoes has not yet been finalised.

Representations/references have been received from different quarters including from one competing vendor and some Members of Parliament. Special Technical Oversight Committee was constituted with approval of DAC (Defence Acquisition Council) to review the evaluation process and the complaints received. The STOC has opined that the procurement has been progressed in accordance with the laid down procedures, in keeping with the provisions of the RFP (Request for Proposal) and DPP-2006 in transparent and fair manner. The DAC has considered the STOC Report and accepted the same in September, 2012. Government has not taken a final decision on this procurement.

In addition to STOC mentioned above, the case has been examined by CVC. The matter was also referred to CBI for ascertaining the vigilance status of the concerned entity.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Arvind Kumar Singhand others in Rajya Sabha today.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Apr 2013 17:38

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/three ... 130429.htm

Three navy officers axed for divulging secret info

Three navy officers are being terminated from service for divulging secret information on social networking websites such as Facebook and the primary reason for these cases of indiscipline was "moral turpitude", the Union defence ministry has informed a Parliamentary panel.

The case had come to light in September, 2011 and was examined by a board of inquiry after which four officers were tried.

"All four officers have been found blameworthy. Three out of four officers have been recommended for termination of services. Action for termination of services of three officers is under process," the defence ministry told the standing committee on defence.

The ministry had submitted its report to the committee on cases of indiscipline in the three services. The fourth officer is being censured by the navy chief.

The ministry also informed the committee that an officer of the rank of commodore was found in a compromising position with a Russian lady and after being found culpable by a one-man inquiry, his services were terminated in April 2011.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Apr 2013 20:36

Sacked for "moral turpitude" on Facebook? Sounds pretty strange.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 30 Apr 2013 10:41

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 May 2013 09:45

Vikramaditya being prepared for delivery

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 May 2013 09:54

Tired of photos of the vik in Russia. Lets see if it is delivered.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 May 2013 23:09

Vivek K wrote:Tired of photos of the vik in Russia. Lets see if it is delivered.

Chakra in India, for a change.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 May 2013 07:40

SNaik wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Tired of photos of the vik in Russia. Lets see if it is delivered.
Chakra in India, for a change.

Yawn ............................ Russia can and should do better.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 02 May 2013 12:15

big naval exercise in the gulf