India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

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harbans
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by harbans »

now New Delhi will be seen to be taking action under public pressure, not because the government has deemed the incident to have crossed a threshold.
This is a trend that has been happening now for some time whether one considers the Rape incident, Sarabjit incident, Beheading incident, economic policy measures. Manifested in statements from Madam.."we have heard the people' etc. This govt has just acted ultimately on massive pressure after really creating mass frustration. This is a completely out of touch set up. MMS is a status quo bureaucrat all his life. He comes in the morning, looks up files, asks for comments and sends them back to the respective ministries. Gives a speech after the rate of rapes is trebled and meekly says, :Women must be respected:/"Fiscal deficit needs to be curtailed' etc with the odd Theek hai sprinkled in between.

MMS frankly is doing a GREAT job within this system. He gets a file from IB that Chinese are parked 27 kms inside Indian LAC. He pushes the report asking for comments to the Foreign or Home ministry for comments and a report. 3 days later a report is tabled to him that the Chinese have gone back 9 km. He tells the Home ministry to look into the matter and maybe even consults a senior NSA bureaucrat Alka Acharya about it, she tells him there is a very successful border management mechanism and these mis-perceptions happen all the time. So he tells ok, give me a feedback if any problems. Meanwhile he is invited to some inaugration of a federation of Industries meeting and he say " Fiscal deficit is to be controlled'. Thank you Sir, i was not aware it should be. Meanwhile someone leaks the Chinese aggression to the media and there is a crises of sorts. Not to be deterred he puts the Foreign Minister to respond and he does calling it an acne. When some press manages to ask MMS about the incident, he says something like 'Yes i heard about it, i think there are some talks on'. He actually we don't realize is being absolutely truthful. He had passed the file and asked the NSA and border Management experts to solve this 'localized' problem. 'Status Quo' relation with China is after all in his perception will/may be broken if we start physically driving the Chinese out without recourse to the 'established' border mechanisms that Alka says has been so successful even though we have lost some 400 sq km of land in Ladhak alone.

You must see everything above is above board. Completely honest and truthful to the established mechanisms, truthful to our own understanding that Shiv is Chinese, that Tibet is Chinese, that Arunachal, and many areas are claimed by Chinese. Yet for 2 decades we have not had a conflict with China, trade has grown and mechanism for these kind of misunderstandings are in place. You see, the PM has put in a 12 -14 hour day and in a big country like India there are myriad problems. For these folks the status quo of keeping China appeased is higher than the rigors that demanding some bleak territory at 17k feet is more an issue. All in the files and books if you notice. Good job MMS!!
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by sourab_c »

^ beautiful post
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Philip »

China is following the same tactic as is being executed in the Spratlys.There,small atolls close to the Phillipines and other ASEAN nations,are being occupied by the Chinese who put up shelters,helipads,etc. to station troops there on a "permanent basis".The Chinese believe that "possession is 9/10th's of the law",and have been doing that for decades with India.We have NO alternative but to now prepare for a limited or prolonged conflict/clash with China,that might become a 3-dimensional conflict.We have to prepare for a forward presence in the Indo-China Sea to scuttle any planned adventurist PLAN mischief.The reports of numerous Chinese sub sightings/contacts close to the Indian coastline and in our EEZ are warning signals that the Chinese are planning for an extended conflict and are exercising their "muscles".

When "push comes to shove",the Indian armed forces must be prepared for a combined military response to the unacceptable Chinese provocation and aggression.We must now understand that we are on the threshold of a clash and have to take immediate and urgent decisions and actions to meet the threat militarily,economically and diplomatically.One fact to be remembered is that the Chinese have a huge cyber-army operational who have been identified operating out of a Shanghai complex.WE must be prepared for a massive hacking campaign before and during any such clash.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by suryag »

Sorry for the innocent pooch, they have pitched tents in our area, why not deploye a brigade and cut off their supply lines, let us not fire a shot but starve them, let them be the aggressors, meanwhile keep amassing forces across a number of sectors
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by SSridhar »

suryag, India is contemplating many options and what you have stated is one of them. Before we can do what you have said, we have to analyze carefully what China's reaction would be, how it would affect our bilateral relations, how projects of Reliance Communications/Reliance Power etc which have given huge contracts to some Chinese companies would be setback etc. Besides, Pakistan may be tempted to do some mischief once India begins to retaliate militarily to Chinese actions. We need to analyze carefully how we can take care of that also. In fact, at this sage, when the US is about to pull out of Afghanistan and China and India are coordinating their positions on Afghanistan, we cannot do something impulsively forgetting the much larger picture. After all, there have been several such incursions before while Afghanistan is a one-of-a-kind situation. We depend on Afghanistan for proposed oil&gas supplies from CAR countries. Some of our public & private companies are investing large amounts of money in Hagigak for iron-ore mining too. Their interests have to be kept in mind. The Chinese might escalate once we cut-off their supply routes and we have not yet built airbases, ALGs, border roads etc. The two new mountain divisions are years away from inductions and deployment. The recent Arms Trade Treaty, which we opposed but which was accepted in spite of our disapproval, might be used against us and our arms and ammunition might deplete rapidly especially if we were to fight a two-front war, leaving us quite vulnerable. Our economy is just now showing some signs of recovery after five years of slump. Greece is in great turmoil and that has to be weighen in as well. Besides, any drastic move by India against China could have graver geopolitical and geostrategic implications which need to be completely understood. China and Russia are getting closer because of the US pivot which both dislike for different reasons. We may not get any support from the Russians if our decision to isolate the Chinese patrol backfires on us. Do you remember how the Chinese reacted when the Japanese Maritime Self-defense Forces captured a Chinese fishing trawler two years back ? One can imagine how the Chinese would recat when 30 PLA soldiers, no less, are almost captured by the IA. No, we cannot afford the consequences at this time. We need to grow at 10% for another decade before we can have some breathing space.

Anyway, an enormous analysis is needed before we can even begin to understand the dimensions of the DBO incident. The Chinese didn't seem to have analyzed so much but we cannot act irresponsibly like them, can we ?
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Sri »

As the each in Staff College in Wellington and wise words of a British General:

"If Chinese have the initiative they are formidable. If we have the initiative they are confused and disorganized."

The chinese army historically has shown sheer lack of improvisation on the battle field. My take is to take our time and choose are response in a way that is not expected by Chinese. Time and again they have shown sheer lack of imagination on battle field. Trick is set a trap and not walk into theirs.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by SSridhar »

Sri wrote:Trick is set a trap and not walk into theirs.
Sri, totally agreed. As we have demonstrated time and again before, we bide our time and when an opportunity presents itself, we have never hesitated to do unto them what they did unto us.

In the meanwhile, let us grin, bear and gird our loin cloth :) (after all Gandhi land, you know) and wait patiently.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Lalmohan »

the chinese have for the past year systematically been testing the resolve of each of their border adversaries (japan, so-ko, philippines, vietnam...), this should not have come as a surprise... after they have tested us in ladakh (interstingly not in Arunachal) they will test the russians

its about the new leadership marking out its territories
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by rajanb »

SSridhar wrote:
Sri wrote:Trick is set a trap and not walk into theirs.
Sri, totally agreed. As we have demonstrated time and again before, we bide our time and when an opportunity presents itself, we have never hesitated to do unto them what they did unto us.

In the meanwhile, let us grin, bear and gird our loin cloth :) (after all Gandhi land, you know) and wait patiently.
We have to behave like luchhas. Outwardly dhoti shivering:

a) Time is on our side and our reaction, or lack of it, is in keeping with our image. However, there is a window.
b) The Chinese are not very innovative. When it comes to retaliating to a situation. But before someone lambasts me, they are very innovative in stealing and copycatting.
c) So our reaction has to be creative. We have been creative before. It is a big border we have with them. We should consider giving them khujli in a place where it is easy for us to support the initiative.
d) No need to be hotheads and cancel the FM's trip at the drop of a hat. I would rather he gets on a plane and we turn it back. That would be Foo Yung on Chinese faces. With the Chinese, the art of diplomacy is to convince them that a lie is the truth.

I am sure that, an I hope all the service Chiefs are involved, including the Navy, in drawing up a plan where we have the ability to escalate in other spots they would not even think of.

JMT
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Singha »

what can I say, you people continue to pull chankian fig leaves from the air , while ground situation is the below...

ibnlive:

The Chinese side insisted that India dismantle bunkers constructed along Line of Actual Control in Phuktsay and Chumar areas.

The Indian side informed that all developmental works, construction of bunkers and road has been stopped in area and asked the Chinese side for an "unconditional withdrawal of Chinese troops from the Indian territory as per the agreements signed between the two sides on earlier occasions."

The Indian side, during the meeting, had also mentioned the construction activities on the Chinese side in Phuktsay area. The Chinese side said the issue would be taken up at the higher level and they would revert soon. Meanwhile, local people in Ladakh area have been found to be resentful towards, what they call, the lenient posture of Indian authorities.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by rajanb »

Well Singhaji. We have to accept the situation we are in from an internal pov. And milk the best from it. as Confusecious says "Grinding teeth mean weaker teeth."
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Pranav »

SSridhar wrote: Anyway, an enormous analysis is needed before we can even begin to understand the dimensions of the DBO incident. The Chinese didn't seem to have analyzed so much but we cannot act irresponsibly like them, can we ?
True, but I think we would be on fairly firm ground if we established posts to the east of the Chinese camp, in locations which dominate the access route to the camp.

As yet there is no clarity about whether Chinese are trying to use the camp as a bargaining chip for something else. If their goals are relatively moderate (such as removal of shelters for Indian patrols from the disputed zone) then that could be considered.

Not acting at all also has its own price in terms of loss of international credibility, which would encourage more adventurism by various other parties.
Last edited by Pranav on 02 May 2013 19:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by abhijitm »

China declines to give timeline for withdrawal of troops from Ladakh
"We hope media can give more time and be more patient. This issue will be properly solved soon through negotiations", she said replying to a host of questions on the issue.

She said the two sides are in close communication and contact with each other though relevant mechanisms.

"We have further understanding of the each other's position. Both sides are willing to and are capable to solve this issue though friendly negotiation and maintain the peace and tranquility of the border areas and maintain the stable and sound development of China-India relations", she said.
This is another trap. We should not, must not, never negotiate at the position of ransom. If any negotiation should be done, should be done after the troops back out to their original position. If we negotiate in the current premises then we will set another wrong and dangerous precedence that India "will" negotiate if held for ransom. This situation is nothing less than Kandahar AI hijack. We are doing okay so far. GoI must not make this mistake. Fingers crossed.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by brihaspati »

I think we should convert this thread into one that lists out all the excuses that GOI can give in further appeasing the Chinese, and how the GOI has been doing fine in whatever it has been doing. We have already made a good start towards this : no "hotheadedness", blanket cheque to GOI for having done just "fine", and spin Chankianness out of whatever the Goi does or does not do.

Patriotism lies in equating the nation with the government, and the rashtra with the people, and blindly covering for the government and the rashtra.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by abhijitm »

Singha wrote:what can I say, you people continue to pull chankian fig leaves from the air , while ground situation is the below...

The Indian side informed that all developmental works, construction of bunkers and road has been stopped in area and asked the Chinese side for an "unconditional withdrawal of Chinese troops from the Indian territory as per the agreements signed between the two sides on earlier occasions."
Singha, it was an Indian googlee. We are forcing them to show their true intention. Looks like they want to negotiate something important, so important that they have come this far to hold indian territory ransom.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by ramana »

We should learn to discern between "Confucius" and "confusion".
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Aditya_V »

Phew, wonder how this Govt. would have reacted to Kargil, the Chinese seem to have estimated our leadership very well.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Singha »

warts and all the ABV Govt looks like chengis khan in comparison...
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by shiv »

If any real action starts there will be a total clampdown on news. Even now I am not sure that we are hearing everything accurately. This is from our media and government whose words we do not trust normally, but seem to trust enough to reach conclusions on this issue.

On the pessimistic side: We have already lost and will have to back down
On the optimistic side: Things that India has done are being hidden from us.

What do the Chinese media say?
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by harbans »

Sourabh Ji thanks. The important thing here is that i don't think the GoI at the higher levels is even contemplating isues like what Sridhar ji mentioned. It's the divestation of duty and responsibility to the extent that they have only been reacting to massive public pressure, event after event. Towards that divestation of responsibility and accountability, elaborate mechanisms have been created where files , reports, Commissions sit down take tax payer money and obfuscate and complicate events. The whole mechanism created is for passing the Buck. Elections are won on numbers, horse trading and vote bank political ethic. Excerpts from this article are a pointer:
This absence of propriety — this chronic timidity in taking a stand — has been a key signature of Singh’s tenure as PM. Leader of Opposition, Arun Jaitley, who has long been a strident critic of Singh, has often exhorted him both within and outside Parliament to behave like the head of the country and not merely a civil servant or party marionette. “The trouble with the prime minister,” he says, “is that he is completely ideology-less. He does not act like a leader; he does what a cabinet secretary should do.”

This talk of Singh’s proclivity to behave like a bureaucrat — an employee dependent on some higher political authority — rather than as the country’s foremost leader is no ordinary criticism. In fact, its damaging impacts cannot be emphasised enough. It has resulted in an unparalleled power vacuum; a loss of morale; stagnant decision-making; a log-jammed Parliament; zero public messaging; a crippling absence of vision. And a country lurching from crisis to crisis.

In fact, the dismaying truth about Prime Minister Singh is that his positive attributes may only be a shallow cover for darker ones: cowardice, complicity, an inordinate attachment to power and a constant abdication of responsibility.
http://tehelka.com/no-prime-minister/?singlepage=1

There is no vision for India as such. INC has become just a colossal Party bureaucracy with multiple interests having their fingers in the pie. The vision is only a party based one and no more. It's the bare minimum that is required to sustain party interests that is the motive of the NAC. I mean we are talking about KM, Tibetan sovereignty etc, these things most probably have not struck the minds of those at NSA and the top leaders. This is an example of complete vision and strategic deficit we are witnessing. Till better leadership, a holistic vision and a better governance model is achieved, i am afraid that public outrage is the only thing that will force the GoI to act a minimalistic level.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Prem »

Lets assume Chinese Xi visit Delhi while border is still tense. Indians as well the whole world will get the chance to see the best demonstration of Chin-Taqiya. How do China hope to re/gain the international credibility after this. They will loose their face as well have long term consequences for this stupidity.
Any update on India-Japan-US trilateral discussion happening in DC and should we see Russian Ambassador whining about lack of arms/military orders from India at this juncture. China incursion happened right after his remark that Russia might stop bidding for Indian arm tenders ?
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by abhijitm »

shiv wrote:What do the Chinese media say?
They are laying low as if nothing has happened.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by rajanb »

shiv wrote:If any real action starts there will be a total clampdown on news. Even now I am not sure that we are hearing everything accurately. This is from our media and government whose words we do not trust normally, but seem to trust enough to reach conclusions on this issue.

On the pessimistic side: We have already lost and will have to back down
On the optimistic side: Things that India has done are being hidden from us.

What do the Chinese media say?
I am going to be rather incisive about what I post here as per this article:

I have worked with them for 20 years and in the commercial world, the Chinese always resented us. So with a sense of humour and a chip on my shoulder, I used to push back at my Chinese counterpart in an American MNC. My attitude used to be "Chumma first and then Jhapaad later." Most of the posters here probably hadn't realised the importance of China in those days. I carried the angst and shame of the 62 war on my shoulders. The sights of 65 nd 71, against the Pakis did not in anyway lower that.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 835484.cms

And a blatant lie below. Not surprised. But it has two meanings of relevance.
a) Are they claiming the LAC has been pushed back?
b) Is it an opening to say oops, "we crossed it and the guy in charge will now handle a pig farm in Sichuan?"

It can cut both ways. Smart!

"You raised a very specific question and I want to reiterate that Chinese troops carry out normal patrols on Chinese side of the line of actual control (LAC) between India and China", Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson, Hua Chunying told a media briefing.
Why refer to an amicable settlement? Don't these guys have the same b@lls that they displayed in 62?

Have we constructed bunkers on the other side of the LAC? A blatant lie again, I would judge. Particularly when some posters, and I hastily add that they are entitled to, turn it into a INC vs BJP issue. But isn't Bharath paramount? (I still carry the angst of Kandahar. A jhappad at that time would have kept the Pakis in place. And yes, Namo would not have let that happen. which reinforces my point that it is not a party but the individual that counts.)
"China and India are talking about the issue for a complete and appropriate settlement of the issue", she said referring to the current rounds of negotiations between the army officials as well as the new mechanism formed by both the countries last year to address specific issues relating to the border.

Asked whether China objected to any bunkers and trenches constructed by Indian troops, she said "China is firmly opposed to any action that crosses the LAC".
Oh my. Oh dear. See below. My foo yung friends asking for peace. Something is not quite right here. Time will tell. And :rotfl: the call to the media? :rotfl: Not theirs for sure. We know how controlled it is. My bet is that the reference is to our media. using the term "LAC" would be aligned to what we have defined.
"China and India are talking about the issue for a complete and appropriate settlement of the issue", she said referring to the current rounds of negotiations between the army officials as well as the new mechanism formed by both the countries last year to address specific issues relating to the border.

Asked whether China objected to any bunkers and trenches constructed by Indian troops, she said "China is firmly opposed to any action that crosses the LAC".

"We hope media can give more time and be more patient. This issue will be properly solved soon through negotiations", she said replying to a host of questions on the issue.

"We have further understanding of the each other's position. Both sides are willing to and are capable to solve this issue though friendly negotiation and maintain the peace and tranquility of the border areas and maintain the stable and sound development of China-India relations", she said.
My comments are based on the assumed accuracy of the TOI. If that is correct as an assumption, I have to believe that she is not a tw@t who has been cuttleted by now.

Cheers.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by abhik »

Singha wrote: ibnlive:

The Chinese side insisted that India dismantle bunkers constructed along Line of Actual Control in Phuktsay and Chumar areas.

The Indian side informed that all developmental works, construction of bunkers and road has been stopped in area and asked the Chinese side for an "unconditional withdrawal of Chinese troops from the Indian territory as per the agreements signed between the two sides on earlier occasions."

... The Chinese side said the issue would be taken up at the higher level and they would revert soon.
So this is how the meeting went:-
Indian side: You are in Indian territory, please dismantle your camp and leave
Chinese: Ok, but we have some demands.
Indian side: What are they?
Chinese: You must dismantle all bunkers and stop all road construction.
Indian side: But we have already done that...
Chinese: What? Er... ok then, I need to consult with my superiors. Will get back to you with a fresh set of demands. Sayonara.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by rajanb »

Oh great. Were you there Abhik?
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by abhik »

^^^
That's the sense I got from the article. Not like the Government is telling us what is really happening.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by ankitash »

Breaking news:
The army has stopped patrolling the eastern Ladakh areas beyond the site where Chinese troops have taken up positions — 19km into Indian territory — to avoid escalating the stand-off. :eek:
Army takes a step back in Ladakh
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by ManuJ »

We are blaming the civilian government, but the responsibility of protecting the border is with the armed forces.
I have a couple of questions in my mind:

Why wasn't the incursion prevented?
And why did it take so long for the incursion to be detected (as per NYT article)?

When the incursion was detected, why wasn't it handled at the local level and then escalated?
It's much easier to negotiate from a position of strength.
The armed forces should have pushed out the aggressors first and talked later.
The civilian govt. would have made a show of scolding the local officers and said 'what to do only? matter of perception you see...'
By not responding immediately and forcefully, and by letting the matter reach a national level with the Chinese in a position of strength, the armed forces have tied the hands of the civilian govt.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Manish_Sharma »

ManuJ wrote:We are blaming the civilian government, but the responsibility of protecting the border is with the armed forces.......
Rohitvats already made it clear that army isn't allowed to patrol the NE borders, but ITBP and Assam Rifles who are under Home Ministry, army isn't given a free hand compared to NW borders.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by sohels »

Hello,
I have a blog with TOI. I was looking to expand the discussion in the media to look at a broader spectrum of possible responses, and came up with this satire. It is along the lines of whats going on in the South China Sea - neither conventional nor quite covert, but sort of like a bad-humored but non-lethal jostle through proxies. Could something like this actually work in Ladakh?

Dealing with the Chinese
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Nikhil T »

ManuJ wrote:We are blaming the civilian government, but the responsibility of protecting the border is with the armed forces.
I have a couple of questions in my mind:

Why wasn't the incursion prevented?
How can we prevent when we don't have a fence along that border?
ManuJ wrote: And why did it take so long for the incursion to be detected (as per NYT article)?
Some merit to the question, but its ITBP who was responsible and they don't patrol every single day. Satellite surveillance is cumbersome, and a network of motion detectors is not feasible along hundreds of Kms.
ManuJ wrote: When the incursion was detected, why wasn't it handled at the local level and then escalated?
It's much easier to negotiate from a position of strength.
The armed forces should have pushed out the aggressors first and talked later.
The civilian govt. would have made a show of scolding the local officers and said 'what to do only? matter of perception you see...'
By not responding immediately and forcefully, and by letting the matter reach a national level with the Chinese in a position of strength, the armed forces have tied the hands of the civilian govt.
Because the Rules of Engagement need to be approved by the civilian chain of command. There are no easy answers to such intrusions.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by pentaiah »

IA has not heard about UAVs looks like they can do survelliance
Or even DC3 borrowed from geological survey of India can do it

Ofourse satellite can do it

But posturing will not do any good

For the last couple of years I got a feeling that our forces are only ordered to perform republic day parades
The leadership is missing in action, young jawans JCOS NCOs officers upto Lt Cols are ready and willing
But beyond that its all jostling with babu's and netas for Italian flavors

Very very sad state of affairs

Remember in Kargil too we came to know about paki encroachment through shepards
Then the. Patrols started to mowed down
Even then we thought some mis guided elements, then it was NLI regulars

By the way what are commandos trained for? Not to be dropped right on the tents and take them away?
Recall how Delh police removed tents over night and baba Ramdev created 100 mtrs record dash?
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Singha »

Well there you have it inspite of chankian fig leaves....we have conceded forever the 19 km and will not patrol beyond that, which means everyone from chinese nomads to troops will be setting up permanent shop shortly.

We should cut costs and adandon dbo as well...why keep it for show...its not even being maintained to permit plane landings for a force buildup

Time to fold the tent and retreat tail between legs back to leh, let the chinese guard our border while we run the 20th iteration of artillery trials
Sushupti
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Sushupti »

Looks like those 19 Kms of land is gone forever.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 53993.aspx
Singha
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Singha »

There is no intrusion at all since we moved the border back by 19km.

If i were the ia chief woulf resign in protest over such a directive but the era of such men are long gone

Let us mark may2 every year as national shame and ghulami day with a parade down janpath culminating in a dance infront of the pm residence.
abhijitm
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by abhijitm »

Stay calm. We are just ensuring no immediate escalation happens by us, as long as chinese do not escalate.
SSridhar
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by SSridhar »

Sushupti wrote:Looks like those 19 Kms of land is gone forever.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 53993.aspx
Let us think for a moment before talking about loss of DBO. What is more important to us ? Long term relations with the Chinese that would eventually lead to settlement of the troublesome border issue or some short-term satisfaction of throwing the PLA out of an area about which even we are not sure that we have a legitimate claim over it (Mr. Shinde said it was a no-man's land) ?

If we can have peace with the Chinese, we can grow our GDP at 10% for the next two decades, by which time we really expect the Chinese to go down the drain. The pointers to that are all visible already. We can then challenge the Chinese and take back our lands, liberate Tibet and fix Pakistan once and for all. We will have our Surya, MIRV, MaRV, plenty of SSBNs, IRNSS, perfected our TN nuke design while other nations are expected to simply standstill and even decay. Everything will be hunky dory. So what, if in the meanwhile, we lose a few thousand sq. kms. of land or a few thousand soldiers and a few thousand civilians ? We have plenty of land and plenty of people to bide for our place and time of choice to hit back. We have done like that before for every incursion and every provocation that China did. GoI has not publicized those instances of Indian retaliation but the Chinese know how India will hit back. We are aware of only Somdurong Chu. All I know is that *now* is not the time to do anything silly.

After all, aren't we supposed to be Chankian ?
Philip
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Philip »

The Chinese are all out for global domination.This is a plot far beyond grabbing Indian territory,where we should stand firm and resist any further intrusions with force if need be.Check this out,how the PRC is planning global germ warfare."Leaky-King" and his entourage should be banned from visiting India.Instead,see how the swine are keeping Salman-the-Cursed on the hook dangling about dates and the agenda for his visit. The Chinese have seized the opportune moment as we have predicted,when the GOI/UPA is at its lowest ebb ever,assailed on all fronts due to its venality and corruption.Paralysed and unable to react firmly in a crisis,the Chinese soldier ant army relentlessly creeps on,into Indian territory.The ghosts of '62 have now returned to haunt us as is there anyone in the nation who has any trust and belief that dr.Singh and his batallion of eunuchs will be able to challenge China,when we are at the mercy of Pakistan's killers and have to unsuccessfully "plead" with it!

A global pandemic of this most lethal variant of swine flu will kill "millions" say scientists,perfect for the PRC which is the most populous nation on earth.Just dispose off millions of the populations of other nations and you have the perfect plan for global conquest,where Chinese will be in demand for everything,from labour to build projects and manufacture everything that the world needs,plus possess the largest armed froces in the world manpower wise.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 01658.html

Appalling irresponsibility': Senior scientists attack Chinese researchers for creating new strains of influenza virus in veterinary laboratory

Experts warn of danger that the new viral strains created by mixing bird-flu virus with human influenza could escape from the laboratory to cause a global pandemic killing millions of people.
Steve Connor

Senior scientists have criticised the “appalling irresponsibility” of researchers in China who have deliberately created new strains of influenza virus in a veterinary laboratory.

They warned there is a danger that the new viral strains created by mixing bird-flu virus with human influenza could escape from the laboratory to cause a global pandemic killing millions of people.

Lord May of Oxford, a former government chief scientist and past president of the Royal Society, denounced the study published today in the journal Science as doing nothing to further the understanding and prevention of flu pandemics.

“They claim they are doing this to help develop vaccines and such like. In fact the real reason is that they are driven by blind ambition with no common sense whatsoever,” Lord May told The Independent.

“The record of containment in labs like this is not reassuring. They are taking it upon themselves to create human-to-human transmission of very dangerous viruses. It’s appallingly irresponsible,” he said.

The controversial study into viral mixing was carried out by a team led by Professor Hualan Chen, director of China’s National Avian Influenza Reference Laboratory at Harbin Veterinary Research Institute.

Professor Chen and her colleagues deliberately mixed the H5N1 bird-flu virus, which is highly lethal but not easily transmitted between people, with a 2009 strain of H1N1 flu virus, which is very infectious to humans.

When flu viruses come together by infecting the same cell they can swap genetic material and produce “hybrids” through the re-assortment of genes. The researchers were trying to emulate what happens in nature when animals such as pigs are co-infected with two different strains of virus, Professor Chen said.

“The studies demonstrated that H5N1 viruses have the potential to acquire mammalian transmissibility by re-assortment with the human influenza viruses,” Professor Chen said in an email.

“This tells us that high attention should be paid to monitor the emergence of such mammalian-transmissible virus in nature to prevent a possible pandemic caused by H5N1 virus,” she said.

“It is difficult to say how easy this will happen, but since the H5N1 and 2009/H1N1 viruses are widely existing in nature, they may have a chance to re-assort,” she added.

The study, which was carried out in a laboratory with the second highest security level to prevent accidental escape, resulted in 127 different viral hybrids between H5N1 and H1N1, five of which were able to pass by airborne transmission between laboratory guinea pigs.

Professor Simon Wain-Hobson, an eminent virologist at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, said it is very likely that some or all of these hybrids could pass easily between humans and possess some or all of the highly lethal characteristics of H5N1 bird-flu.

“Nobody can extrapolate to humans except to conclude that the five viruses would probably transmit reasonable well between humans,” Professor Wain-Hobson said.

“We don’t know the pathogenicity [lethality] in man and hopefully we will never know. But if the case fatality rate was between 0.1 and 20 per cent, and a pandemic affected 500 million people, you could estimate anything between 500,000 and 100 million deaths,” he said.

“It’s a fabulous piece of virology by the Chinese group and it’s very impressive, but they haven’t been thinking clearly about what they are doing. It’s very worrying,” Professor Wain-Hobson said.

“The virological basis of this work is not strong. It is of no use for vaccine development and the benefit in terms of surveillance for new flu viruses is oversold,” he added.

An increasing number of scientists outside the influenza field have expressed concern over attempts to deliberately increase the human transmissibility of the H5N1 bird-flu virus. This is done by mutating the virus so that it can pass by airborne droplets between laboratory ferrets, the standard “animal model” of human influenza.

Two previous studies, by Ron Fouchier of Erasmus Medical Centre in Rotterdam and Yoshihiro Kawaoka of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, caused uproar in 2011 when it emerged that they had created airborne versions of H5N1 that could be passed between ferrets.

The criticism led to researchers to impose a voluntary moratorium on their H5N1 research, banning transmission studies using ferrets. However they decided to lift the ban earlier this year, arguing that they have now consulted widely with health organisations and the public over safety concerns.

However, other scientists have criticised the decision to lift the moratorium.
Thursday 02 May 2013
Singha
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by Singha »

Considering the level of threat on our land borders, a american style policy of border patrol forces like itbp and bsf under mha is definitely not workable. I think other than tsp frontier in j&k, the mha has blanket ownership of all other sectors?

The army must be handed over the border under control of defence ministry. Bsf and itbp types must be folded into army and reequipped to join the army in heavier fighting. There are sure to be decades of unrest on all our land borders looking at trends.

Let the home ministry take care of the home front in which they have a lot to do internal security.
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Post by RamaY »

SSridhar wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Looks like those 19 Kms of land is gone forever.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 53993.aspx
Let us think for a moment before talking about loss of DBO. What is more important to us ? Long term relations with the Chinese that would eventually lead to settlement of the troublesome border issue or some short-term satisfaction of throwing the PLA out of an area about which even we are not sure that we have a legitimate claim over it (Mr. Shinde said it was a no-man's land) ?

If we can have peace with the Chinese, we can grow our GDP at 10% for the next two decades, by which time we really expect the Chinese to go down the drain. The pointers to that are all visible already. We can then challenge the Chinese and take back our lands, liberate Tibet and fix Pakistan once and for all. We will have our Surya, MIRV, MaRV, plenty of SSBNs, IRNSS, perfected our TN nuke design while other nations are expected to simply standstill and even decay. Everything will be hunky dory. So what, if in the meanwhile, we lose a few thousand sq. kms. of land or a few thousand soldiers and a few thousand civilians ? We have plenty of land and plenty of people to bide for our place and time of choice to hit back. We have done like that before for every incursion and every provocation that China did. GoI has not publicized those instances of Indian retaliation but the Chinese know how India will hit back. We are aware of only Somdurong Chu. All I know is that *now* is not the time to do anything silly.

After all, aren't we supposed to be Chankian ?
Sridhar garu,

Agreed, India will be a $100T economy, will have all the things you mentioned above x 10times within 72 years.

But the fact remains that China and Pakistan will not lose their nukes, however tiny and inaccurate they may be eventhough China becomes a $50B economy and Pakistan its begging brother.

Will India have the stomach to take a stray nuke on any one of the ultra-modern cities that it is going to develop?

So the story of the moral is war is bad bad. We should have peace at any cost.

After all nothing grows in Aksai-Chin, Arunachal Pradesh is one of the poorest states, Assam has only 7 MPs and J&K is a drain on our national treasury and consciousness. Let us give them all those things. And if possible let us convince Pakis to drop a nuke on Gujarat for their communal behavior and after all they might have brought it with their Gujrat riots.

While we are at it, let us disband the Armed Forces. We dont need them and our police forces can do the stellar job they are doing guarding our borders.
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