Bharat Rakshak

Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
It is currently 23 Sep 2014 03:01

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 6648 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148 ... 167  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 08 May 2013 08:33 
Offline
Forum Moderator

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 32934
Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
I think we tried to get away on the cheap opening these ALGs for fixed wing but not spending the $$ to make them properly up and running for daily ops. afterall, a single C130J or AN32 sortie can surely supply more materials than a Mi17 struggling all the way over the hills.

our bluff has been called. if we want to keep these places we need a solid setup and regular aeroplane flights to supply the larger garrison.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 May 2013 09:00 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31
Posts: 11318
China calls US the "real hacking empire" after Pentagon report

Quote:
The People's Liberation Army Daily called the report a "gross interference in China's internal affairs".

"Promoting the 'China military threat theory' can sow discord between China and other countries, especially its relationship with its neighbouring countries, to contain China and profit from it," the newspaper said in a commentary that was carried on China's Defence Ministry's website.

The United States is "trumpeting China's military threat to promote its domestic interests groups and arms dealers", the newspaper said, adding that it expects "U.S. arms manufacturers are gearing up to start counting their money".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 May 2013 12:11 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
Posts: 9888
Location: In between wars in our time
manum - i dont think this was a random move by china, it was a well calibrated probe. just as they have done on their borders with japan, and in the SE Asian Sea, and by proxy in NoKo - all over the last few months

its a muscle flexing exercise by the new leadership

there is a public warning to the US today on cyberwarfare as well


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 May 2013 14:02 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 26 Feb 2008 06:18
Posts: 676
What does an Indian believe?

India destroyed bunkers in Chumar in return for Chinese withdrawal
or
No talk of scaling down Border Infra

The Chinese military PSY Ops planners couldn't have played it better if they had a crystal ball.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 08 May 2013 22:27 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Posts: 604
Location: still settling...
Lalmohan wrote:
manum - i dont think this was a random move by china, it was a well calibrated probe. just as they have done on their borders with japan, and in the SE Asian Sea, and by proxy in NoKo - all over the last few months

its a muscle flexing exercise by the new leadership

there is a public warning to the US today on cyberwarfare as well


Yes, it was well calculated move...but I don't think it paid well, it just came after army chief called China border calm...

In other words, it was very shallow move and its good we did not respond militarily, may be that is what they wanted, they wanted to sacrifice the pawn for bigger leverage...They wanted to shed their own blood on the land, to further the case...

those five tents inhabitants were here for 50:50 chances...considering India might respond and equally might not...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 01:44 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Posts: 1840
RohitVats ji, Is Avantipur airfield in Srinagar a useful base to base AN 32 aircraft and provide fighter cover to DBO and Leh? Why is this fighter base not a yseful option for defending eastern and Northern Ladakh.

Flt lt. Sekhon had flown out of this airfield in his Gnat IIRC.


Last edited by Paul on 09 May 2013 01:50, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 01:45 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Posts: 1840
They need to build a road connecting DBO to Thoise.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 07:15 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31
Posts: 1621
Singha wrote:
I think we tried to get away on the cheap opening these ALGs for fixed wing but not spending the $$ to make them properly up and running for daily ops. afterall, a single C130J or AN32 sortie can surely supply more materials than a Mi17 struggling all the way over the hills.

our bluff has been called. if we want to keep these places we need a solid setup and regular aeroplane flights to supply the larger garrison.


How many flights were they doing on yearly basis? There was only one source that, i have seen, which talked about lack of flights but by no means that is a confirmation of neglect. Did i miss something else?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 08:09 
Offline
Forum Moderator

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 32934
Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
The surface itself was not being maintained for fixed wing ops....after the initial opening flight. Nobody disputed that report which said none of the alg have regular logistical flights at present.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 09:05 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30
Posts: 2893
How India played hardball with China.

After initial diffidence and a sense of confusion, India had to play diplomatic hardball to get China to withdraw its troops from Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, which officials claimed was secured without giving any concessions to China, even though New Delhi has agreed to bring down a structure that was erected as "retaliation" to the Chinese incursion.

After the withdrawal, Indian and Chinese officials are expected to meet in the next few days under the rubric of the working mechanism to work out a new set of operating procedures along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC). "We will discuss peace and tranquillity on the LAC," said officials.

As flag meetings failed to resolve the face-off which happened after Chinese troops pitched tents in the area, the government decided to abandon a soft approach to China, said officials. In Beijing, Indian ambassador S Jaishankar impressed on the Chinese that not only was India ready to cancel the visit of foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Beijing, it was also willing to cancel the visit of the Chinese premier Li Keqiang to New Delhi on May 20.

The political initiative to take a harder stand was led by defence minister AK Antony, while foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai worked with the army chief to ensure that the Chinese understood that India was ready to escalate matters, if necsaary. In the cabinet meetings, it was Antony's voice that carried the government opinion. Both PM and foreign minister Salman Khurshid had taken a much softer approach.

India insisted Beijing withdraw because they had violated a 2005 protocol. Within the government there were those who were worried about an escalation. However, India apparently had a precedent - in 2002, the NDA government had tackled a similar situation at Barahauti in the middle sector with a tough stand.

India, however, may be ready to agree to a Chinese demand to negotiate a new mechanism on border management. This was a demand by the PLA in response to India's border build-up. India was reluctant earlier but as a result of the standoff, negotiations on this may start, said sources. However, Antony is believed to be reluctant to go down that path.

While the high level visits are still on, the government has now lost the enthusiasm for the Chinese premier's visit. It will go through, and it is important because this is the first overseas visit of the new premier. But with the Depsang incident fresh in their minds, the Indian government will find it difficult to go the extra mile for this relationship just now.

The MEA spokesperson said on Monday that India and China have agreed to restore status quo ante along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the Western Sector of the India-China boundary as it existed prior to 15 April, 2013. While the Chinese side took down their tents, the Indians retreated from the face-off position. In addition, India agreed to bring down a structure that was built on April 20 as part of the trade-off with the Chinese troops.

"There was no deal," said sources. "There is nothing that will stop our efforts to improve infrastructure on the border." The government is taking credit for getting the Chinese to withdraw within three weeks while it took about seven years to get them out during the Wangdung crisis at Sumdurong Chu in Arunachal Pradesh.

Army sources said, it would have to "open" more access routes to the table-top plateau at Depsang Bulge, which became the face-off site between rival troops at an altitude of 16,300-feet.

After the Chinese intrusion 19-km deep into Indian territory on April 15, ITBP and Army troops had to stop their patrolling of the sector on the two available routes going through the Depsang plains and leading up to the strategically-located Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and Karakoram Pass to the north.

The Chinese move, as earlier reported by TOI, threatened to cut off access to almost 750 sq km area in northern Ladakh since the Depsang plains are the only flat open land needed for accessibility to the region. ``We will have to slowly open more access routes to the region as well as step up coordinated patrolling with ITBP. If one access route gets blocked, then the others can be used," said an officer.

The military also thinks there will also be the need to build more forward observation posts and other infrastructure in the region, both for surveillance as well as sustaining long-range patrols. China, which itself has bolstered its military infrastructure along the LAC in a major way for well over two decades now, will obviously not be happy with it.

India's re-activation of the DBO, Fukche and Nyoma advanced landing grounds and construction of some posts along the Line of Actual Control as well as troop reinforcements in Ladakh over the last five to six years has proved to be a major irritant for China.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 09:08 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30
Posts: 2893
India weighing China’s border defence cooperation proposal.

India is examining a proposal from China for a border defence cooperation pact, according to a person familiar with the developments. The plan was made by China two or three months ago and focuses on expanding friendly contacts between the troops on both sides, a second person close to the developments said.

“We will respond to their proposal; it’s under consideration,” said the first person cited above. “It is not intended to replace any of the existing protocols,” the person said, referring to the pacts signed in 1993, 1996 and 2005.

Referring to the forthcoming visit of Indian foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Beijing on 9-10 May, the person said both sides would look at ways to maintain peace and tranquillity on the borders, given that the visit is taking place within days of the neighbours defusing a tense situation along their undemarcated border that followed Chinese troops entering Indian territory on 15 April.

“It is the first visit (to Beijing) since the new team took over,” the person said, referring to the once-in-a-decade Chinese leadership change that took place in Beijing in March. India will also seek access to Chinese markets for Indian products, especially pharmaceuticals and information technology, the person said, pointing to the major trade deficit in China’s favour in bilateral economic ties.
Asian giants India and China share a relationship of mutual suspicion, mainly stemming from their 1962 war and China’s friendship with India’s arch-rival Pakistan. The undemarcated border between the two is a source of tension, though bilateral trade has been booming. In 2011, bilateral trade was almost $75 billion. Both sides have set a bilateral trade target of $100 billion by 2015.

The unsettled border has often sparked claims and counter-claims of incursions. In the latest incident, India accused the Chinese army of straying into its territory in Depsang valley in Ladakh, a claim denied by China. Two meetings between the nations’ armies have failed to resolve the matter.
“Overall, the relationship had been moving on a very different trajectory in the last few years. Any incident like this will inevitably lead to some questions... Certainly, we want to bring the relationship back on track,” the first person cited said.

As it stands, China claims 90,000 sq. km of Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh and occupies around 38,000 sq. km in Jammu and Kashmir that India claims. Also, under the China-Pakistan boundary agreement signed in March 1963, Pakistan illegally ceded 5,180 sq. km of Indian territory in PoK (Pakistan-occupied Kashmir) to China, the Indian foreign ministry says.

Both sides have a variety of mechanisms at the official, military and political levels—including flag meetings, joint working groups, meetings at the levels of experts and special representatives, besides communication through diplomatic channels—to resolve disputes.
The first person cited denied that India had agreed to any demand from the Chinese side to demolish bunkers near their de facto border in the Himalayas though the person did say Indian troops removed a “tin-shed” construction in the Chumar area of Ladakh region in Kashmir once the two sides ended the stand-off.

India’s military position was 7-8km from the area where the shed had been built and was mainly aimed at sheltering Indian foot patrols in cold and inclement weather, the person said, pointing out that India had not compromised any of its military positions.
When asked if India had issued any warnings that a visit by the newly installed Chinese premier Li Keqiang could be called off if the stand-off did not end with the Chinese pulling back, the person said that India had not issued any such threats. “I think they understood the way the background was developing...that this (the incursions) would impact on our bilateral relations.”

As for India’s assessment about what prompted the Chinese to enter Indian territory, the person said it was “still a bit of a mystery”. One of the reasons could be that the Chinese government wanted to bring the issue of the undemarcated border to the centre stage.
Srikanth Kondapalli, a China expert at Jawaharlal Nehru University, said, “I think they are playing with words. Will this stop tensions between the two countries? The important thing is to define the Line of Actual Control and resolve the territorial dispute.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 16:34 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 10932
Location: India
X-posted earlier elsewhere.

"
All this is another example of the old saying that amateurs (and politicians) talk tactics, while professionals talk logistics. China realized this first and has built 58,000 kilometers of roads to the Indian border, along with five airbases and several rail lines. Thus, China can move thirty divisions to the border, which is three times more than India can get to its side of the frontier."

How best do we prepare for this eventuality?

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurp ... 30507.aspx

Quote:
India Prepares For Another Chinese Victory

May 7, 2013: The recent (April 15th) Chinese incursion inside Indian Kashmir has reminded Indian military leaders that despite over five years of brave talk and bold plans, not much has actually been accomplished to rectify the shortage of access to the Indian side of the border. It was this lack of access that played a key role in the last border war with China (in 1962) which saw better prepared and supplied Chinese forces wearing down their brave but ill-supplied Indian opponents. Indians are waking up to the fact that a repeat of their 1962 defeat is in the making.

Over the last five years India has ordered roads built so that troops can reach the Chinese border in sufficient strength to stop a Chinese invasion. The roads have, for the most part, not been built. The problem is the Indian bureaucracy and its inability to get anything done quickly or even on time. The military procurement bureaucracy is the best, or worst, example of this. The military procurement bureaucracy takes decades to develop and produce locally made gear and often never delivers. Buying foreign equipment is almost as bad, with corruption and indecisiveness delaying and sometimes halting selection and purchase of needed items.

Despite the bureaucracy, some progress has been made. Three years ago India quietly built and put into service an airfield for transports in the north (Uttarakhand), near their border with China. While the airfield can also be used to bring in urgently needed supplies for local civilians during those months when snow blocks the few roads, it is mainly there for military purposes, in case China invades again. Uttarakhand is near Kashmir and a 38,000 square kilometer chunk of land that China seized after a brief war with India in 1962. This airfield and several similar projects along the Chinese border are all about growing fears of continued Chinese claims on Indian territory. India is alarmed at increasing strident Chinese insistence that it owns northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. This has led to an increased movement of Indian military forces to that remote area.

India has discovered that a buildup in these remote areas is easier said than done. Without new roads nothing else really makes much difference. Airfields require fuel and other supplies to be more than just another place where an aircraft can land (and not take off if it needs refueling). Moreover, the Indians found that they were far behind Chinese efforts. When they took a closer look three years ago, Indian staff officers discovered that China had improved its road network along most of their 4,000 kilometer common border. Indian military planners calculated that, as a result of this network, Chinese military units could move 400 kilometers a day on hard surfaced roads, while Indian units could only move half as fast, while suffering more vehicle damage because of the many unpaved roads. Moreover, China had more roads right up to the border. Building more roads on the Indian side will take years, once the bureaucratic problems are overcome (which often takes a decade). The roads are essential to support Indian plans to build more airfields near the border and stationing modern fighters there. Military planners found, once the terrain was surveyed and calculations completed, that it would take a lot more time because of the need to build maintenance facilities, roads to move in fuel and supplies, and housing for military families.

All these border disputes have been around for centuries but became more immediate when India and China fought a short war, up in these mountains, in 1962. The Indians lost and are determined not to lose a rematch. But so far, the Indians have been falling farther behind China. This situation developed because India, decades ago, decided that one way to deal with a Chinese invasion was to make it difficult for them to move forward. Thus, for decades, the Indians built few roads on their side of the border. But that also made it more difficult for Indian forces to get into the disputed areas. This strategy suited the Indian inability to actually build roads in these sparsely inhabited areas.

The source of the current border tension goes back a century and heated up when China resumed its control over Tibet in the 1950s. From the end of the Chinese empire in 1912 up until 1949 Tibet had been independent. But when the communists took over China in 1949, they sought to reassert control over their "lost province" of Tibet. This began slowly, but once all of Tibet was under Chinese control in 1959, China once again had a border with India and there was immediately a disagreement about exactly where the border should be. That’s because, in 1914, the newly independent government of Tibet worked out a border (the McMahon line) with the British (who controlled India). China considers this border agreement illegal and wants 90,000 square kilometers back. India refused, especially since this would mean losing much of the state of Arunachal Pradesh in northeastern India and some bits elsewhere in the area.

Putting more roads into places like Arunachal Pradesh (83,000 square kilometers and only a million people) and Uttarakhand (53,566 square kilometers and ten million people) will improve the economy, as well as military capabilities. This will be true of most of the border area. For decades local civilians along these borders have been asking for more roads and economic development but were turned down because of the now discredited Indian strategy.

All the roads won't change the fact that most of the border is mountains, the highest mountains (the Himalayas) in the world. So no matter how much you prepare for war, no one is going very far, very fast, when you have to deal with these mountains. As the Indians discovered, the Chinese persevered anyway and built roads and railroads anyway and now India has to quickly respond in kind or face a repeat of their 1962 defeat.

Despite the lack of roads, India has moved several infantry divisions, several squadrons of Su-30 fighters, and six of the first eight squadrons of its new Akash air defense missile systems as close to the Chinese border as their existing road network will allow. Most of these initially went into Assam, just south of Arunachal Pradesh, until the road network is built up sufficiently to allow bases to be maintained closer to the border. It may be a decade or more before those roads are built, meaning China can seize Arunachal Pradesh anytime it wants and there’s not much India can do to stop it.

Undeterred by that the Indian Army has asked for $3.5 billion in order to create three more brigades (two infantry and one armored) to defend the Chinese border. Actually, this new force is in addition to the new mountain corps (of 80,000 troops) nearing approval (at a cost of $11.5 billion). The mountain corps is to be complete in four years. The three proposed brigades would be ready in 4-5 years. By the end of the decade India will have spent nearly five billion dollars on new roads, rail lines, and air fields near the 4,057 kilometer long Chinese border. Spending the money is not the same as actually getting the roads and railroads actually built.

All this is another example of the old saying that amateurs (and politicians) talk tactics, while professionals talk logistics. China realized this first and has built 58,000 kilometers of roads to the Indian border, along with five airbases and several rail lines. Thus, China can move thirty divisions to the border, which is three times more than India can get to its side of the frontier.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 17:53 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33
Posts: 638
and the pace which roads are being built in AP is pathetic to say the least.... was in AP and met a few BRo chaps and their refrain was ' our cost per km of road is cheapest...".. i was constrained to tell them " that it was also the slowest!!" ... gangs of ladies are busy beating gravel for the roads with hammers ( stone age)... travelled from Assam to bomdila to tawang... to the no mans land... and it was a torture... roads in a mess and travel a nightmare !! army guarding sections of roads in the assam/AP border as there is threat of insurgents... ( so the rear areas are not safe)... a road built in the mountains takes another few years to really stabilize. i dont know wtf is going on... how are you going to supply the new formations??? went to ops room of "balls of fire" division. the GOC saheb appeared so gung ho ...we will give the chinese a bluddy nose if they try any monkey tricks !! very comical to say the least....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 18:31 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Posts: 12472
Location: In a sad place
Paul wrote:
RohitVats ji, Is Avantipur airfield in Srinagar a useful base to base AN 32 aircraft and provide fighter cover to DBO and Leh? Why is this fighter base not a yseful option for defending eastern and Northern Ladakh.

Flt lt. Sekhon had flown out of this airfield in his Gnat IIRC.


During Safed Sagar the Mig 29s were operating from Avantipur, as well as Mirages. It can handle transports as well, definetly An 32s and I am not sure, but I think it can support Il 76 as well.

The issue with Avantipur is that it is too far to serve as useful logistical nodes for Eastern and Northern Ladakh. From Avantipur, its a days drive easily to those regions, through a torturous road.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 19:05 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33
Posts: 638
@sanku.... it may be a days drive but as the 'crow flies' its not too far. In the event of hostilties, Awantipur will be active in providing support.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 21:51 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Posts: 12472
Location: In a sad place
manjgu wrote:
@sanku.... it may be a days drive but as the 'crow flies' its not too far. In the event of hostilties, Awantipur will be active in providing support.


I meant as a transport hub, for far flung units in that sector. They have to be served in emergency through ALGs and heli's. At least I thought the question was in that respect.

In case of Air cover, yes, Avantipur is close enough to provide support, and I am sure it will.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 22:29 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Posts: 604
Location: still settling...
Why chinese did that, what they did?

Noone has the answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 22:40 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 10932
Location: India
PLs. read the China thread in the Strat page.Revelations as to how the China Study Group (CSG) chickened out, vetoed the IA's infrastructure build-up strategy leading to the debacle.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 23:12 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31
Posts: 1621
Philip,
Unfortunately you will accept nothing but a defeat, humiliation, treachery and a slap on face of India. What's the point?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 23:46 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Posts: 14823
Location: Hindu Enclave, Narrow-Mind Street
manum wrote:
Why chinese did that, what they did?

Noone has the answer.


I have a theory. Please bear with me as this is more to do with a nation's territorial integrity and national interests than pure military gadgets or Orbat. More over military being just an arm of a nation's power projection there is extremely limited military aspect to this recent maneuver.

This whole area is a disputed territory between China and India. Being a disputed territory both nations have a claim on it. While there is a LAC (Line of Actual Control) the nations need not honor it for it would make the LAC as de-facto border. It is a must for an assertive nation to claim the disputed territory on periodic basis.

I think China is doing this on a periodic basis. I also think when GoI sources say this happens all the time on both sides, I guess this posturing is what they meant.

Given this scenario, perhaps India and China should negotiate a set of locations to setup their permanent military bases in all the disputed areas.

It is a different matter if India want to call whole of Tibet a disputed matter and China whole of NE.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2013 23:51 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 15 Sep 2011 07:22
Posts: 424
Philip wrote:
X-posted earlier elsewhere.

"
All this is another example of the old saying that amateurs (and politicians) talk tactics, while professionals talk logistics. China realized this first and has built 58,000 kilometers of roads to the Indian border, along with five airbases and several rail lines. Thus, China can move thirty divisions to the border, which is three times more than India can get to its side of the frontier."

How best do we prepare for this eventuality?

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurp ... 30507.aspx

Quote:
India Prepares For Another Chinese Victory

All the roads won't change the fact that most of the border is mountains, the highest mountains (the Himalayas) in the world. So no matter how much you prepare for war, no one is going very far, very fast, when you have to deal with these mountains. As the Indians discovered, the Chinese persevered anyway and built roads and railroads anyway and now India has to quickly respond in kind or face a repeat of their 1962 defeat.

Despite the lack of roads, India has moved several infantry divisions, several squadrons of Su-30 fighters, and six of the first eight squadrons of its new Akash air defense missile systems as close to the Chinese border as their existing road network will allow. Most of these initially went into Assam, just south of Arunachal Pradesh, until the road network is built up sufficiently to allow bases to be maintained closer to the border. It may be a decade or more before those roads are built, meaning China can seize Arunachal Pradesh anytime it wants and there’s not much India can do to stop it.


What a sad analysis ! All such analysts should be made to use Google Terrain and Google Earth before they write any article.

Developing roads on a plateau (which is what Tibet is) is a different ball game from developing roads from sea-level going upto a few thousand metres in height over a distance of a few dozen kilometres (which is what India needs to do). BRO, despite all failings, has a really tough job and they have done quite well.

Secondly, the author makes it look like it is a combat in plains, when it isn't (mostly). What options does a force have, even if three times bigger, against a prepared defensive army holding high ground in mountains ?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 06:13 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33
Posts: 638
@srin.... yes BRO has a tough job but surely has not done well. Have u ever travelled on border roads espicially in Ladhak and AP?? try the road which goes to chushul from Tangste... now this route is at an altitude but on flat ground and yet this road is such a mess... or the alternate route to chushul from pangong lake side ( enroute maan, merak village side), which is even bigger mess. Given the nature of job and the challenge and the urgency , BRO is totally not upto it. though the srinagar > Leh road looked much improved ahead of Drass... but still so much work to do and the BRO pace is glacial.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 09:29 
Offline
BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 06 May 2013 23:13
Posts: 3
@manjgu...my first post here on BR and I totally agree with you in terms of BRO not being up to the job. Sad but true. Being from Ladakh I can attest to quite a few places where there are flat plains but the roads are in such a mess. Even for certain roads for which the funds are fully provided by the govt instead in piecemeal amounts the quality is substandard due to corruption. Few are built properly as a showcase which then creates a false impression that they are doing a good job. Some of the new roads built in strategic locations have many bumps which makes it impossible to travel more than 30/40 km/h without the vehicle losing control. So you can now visualize the barrel of an artillery being towed by the trucks on these roads bobbing up and down in excitement as if it had some organic life if you know what I mean.

I could not understand why they couldn't fill the bumps initially with soil and rocks freely available on either sides of the road in those vast empty high plains. I guess its the chalta hai attitude. Everyone is talking about urgency but the facts on the ground prove otherwise. While I truly appreciate BRO for all the work they have done in the past but nowadays they need to bring it up to speed and into the 21st century. The slow pace of build is truly staggering. Bunch of hard working laborers working with very few equipment. Instead we need more mechanical equipments in these places where lack of oxygen and cold truly affects the stamina of a labourer and thereby the pace of build. Take for example the Korzok - Chumur road which was recently built by a reputed private engineering firm from southern India. They focused on bringing the proper mechanical equipments for these heights and they have done an excellent job. Now one can travel from Leh to Chumur in around 7/8 hours instead of a day or two.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 09:49 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33
Posts: 638
@jigmet...welcome to BR. I travelled extensively thru ladhak in oct 12, though i go to ladhak almost everywhere since last 4/5 years and road infrastructure has not changed/improved visibly, though lot of blasting, widening is going on. but the pace is glacial to say the least. went to chushul, nyoma, shyok, maan merak villages ( along pangong), lukung>phobrang>... and the story is same everywhere... roads even on flat terrain are in terrible shape and the *deleted* are not preventing you from improving those :( . What is the route for going to chumur from Leh?? thru nyoma, hanle ?? How long is the road from Korzok to Chumur which has been built by private co? IIRC Korzok is next to Tso Mori..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 09:55 
Offline
Forum Moderator

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 3980
Welcome to BR Jigmet... Kindly read forum guidelines if you haven't already done so. Good to have you here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 10:49 
Offline
BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 06 May 2013 23:13
Posts: 3
@manjgu & JE Menon...thanks.

You take the road towards Tso Moriri from Leh. At the Mahe bridge junction one needs to take a right turn and go over the bridge towards Tso Moriri. At the Mahe bridge junction one needs to show permits to the police stationed there. A few kms before reaching Korzok village on the banks of Tso Moriri the road divides into two and one needs to take the left turn towards Chumur. I believe the new road length is around 70/80 kms. Yes....Korzok village is the only settlement around Tso Moriri.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 11:08 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 14 Aug 2012 09:12
Posts: 754
There is down side of nice roads and bridges on your own side. Enemy can use it as well and do a rapid advance and that is why the first thing the retreating armies do is to blow up roads and bridges to stop enemy advace. So there was a deliberate stragegy to keep the roads that way to slow down CHINESE advances. What prevents the IA from using the CHINESE roads to do deep incursion, provided UPA has the political will for the same. And nice roads can be easily blown up, just like airstrips, by sending in a few missiles. Few deep craters and all advances will stop. Let us not think that these roads are to be used by civilians doing 100mp on expensive cars. These roads are to be used to move troops and supplies and basic quality should be good enough. Having said that we seem to have not been doing even that in some areas. That needs to be taken care immediately.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 11:50 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33
Posts: 638
@s.das... there was no deliberate strategy but crass foolishness and timidity. If it was such a good strategy what changed now?? lets admit that we have been extremely foolish on this count. i was shocked to learn that the bomidala/tawang road and ahead was made by chinese during the war !! having good LofC is so vital to war effort is a think even known to novices...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 12:17 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
Posts: 9888
Location: In between wars in our time
manjgu - from my reading it was a deliberate strategy to keep the main roads away from the points where chinese could break through


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 12:38 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 14 Aug 2012 09:12
Posts: 754
If we could build good roads on western front then why not on easter front? Because on western front our strategy is offensive and we need good roads for that. On eastern front the startegy is defensive in nature and hence bad roads to slow down Chinese offensive. I would buy this logic. Now we are gearing up for offensive on eastern board and hence this build up. So bascailly we now are getting ready for 2 pronged offensive stragegy. I think that is the message.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 13:13 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33
Posts: 638
@lalmohan @s.das... if u get a chance do read up "Himalayan Blunder" by Brig JP Dalvi on 1962 debacle ..the book will clarify many of the points / doubts u have on this issue. the point is that the political masters of the day ignored defence ( including troop build up, equipment, building LofC along Indo china border). Stupid decisions of the day were sought to be explained in terms of deliberate strategy, back stabbing by chinese etc. JP Dalvi is lamenting the lack of roads all thru the book and how they were unable to supply anythng to the troops and their repeated requests for road building and their inability to confront the chinese from thag la ridge to bomdia...to the plains of assam... due to poor LofC.

With a poor infrastructure ( as it was in 1962) India could not stop chinese from coming into plains of Assam ..i dont know how they hoped that bad roads will be a deter the chinese in future?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 13:14 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 28 Apr 2010 00:37
Posts: 174
It seems that Indians try to negotiate even those things that shouldn't be negotiated. Why Indian territory is being negotiated? Is Indian army not capable of defending India? Very sorry to see Indian govt bowing down to Chinese arm twisting... :rotfl:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 13:26 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Posts: 6679
Location: Desh ke baarei mei sochna shuru karo. Soch badlo, desh badlega!
bowing down ??? this is something else


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 13:26 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
Posts: 9888
Location: In between wars in our time
manjgu - thanks, also read tellis's book on the indian recessed deterrent, he goes into a lot of analysis on the N-S vs E-W axis problem for each side


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 17:15 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 04 Aug 2011 11:34
Posts: 159
Location: Pune
guys i want to present a theory w.r.t. post made by subhamoy.das above on 2 front war.

i suppose india has made choice of balancing its avaiable resources. since majority of offensive power is concentrated on west, IA will start offence on west front and try to capture karakoram highway as soon as possible while holding eastern front in such way that chinese offence will be limited upto bottom of himalayas at indian side. paralally IN will try to intercept every china bound ship specially oil tankers. since pakistan lacks strategic depth it is *relatively* easy to reach upto KKH. lets say this can be achieved in one month. once this is achieved china will slowly starve for oil. and pakistani offensive power will be much exhausted. then india will start counter attack on chinese front with the limited offenseive assets on eastern front.
here the point is while attacking chinese will climb down to indian side but once they are weak and under attack it will be very very difficult for them to climb back to the platue. at this point the terrain will also be on indian side since indians will be better used to it. chinese can be trapped between himalay on one side and IA on other. this way chinese attack can be neutralized.

i admit above theory must have some (maybe too many) flaws and there are many assumptions. and might have been presented earlier on BR. i also dont know what are each others offensive/defensive capabilities. but that can explain why we dont have good infra on eastern front.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 18:31 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
Posts: 9888
Location: In between wars in our time
a full blown indo-china war cannot last more than a few days before both sides are out of ammo and vast areas have been devastated
its more about threat than actual hot war


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 21:39 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 10884
Location: Illini Nation
China Radio's Tamil station to launch FM channel in India

19 Kms?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 May 2013 21:43 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 10884
Location: Illini Nation
the next domino:

Japan protests over Chinese article challenging Okinawa island ownership

china is on a roll !!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 May 2013 06:12 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 10932
Location: India
Katare,facts are facts.This wretched UPA govt. has slept over defence and security for a decade.Take a holistic view of the situ in the IA-short of ammo,no artillery,lacks a Himalayan border infrastructure,yet to get its Army Air Corps,light and heavy helos,etc.For how long have chief after chief protested the delays in decision-making and procurement?

What about the defeatist mentality in the MEA/Remember the disastrous S-al-S summit and who spoke about Baluchistan,and at whose behest (Uncle Sam's) ? What have we done to Pak after 26/11 and the barbaric treatmen t of Indian soldiers and prisoners? Not even a diplomatic rap on the knuckles and Chinese creeping intrusion has been going on uabatedly for a decade+.At the curent moment,this despicable regime wants to sweep the dirt of its own making under the carpet,present a false picture of "everything is normal",and is ready to kowtow to the PRC to save its bacon! What may I also ask is the great track record of the MEA in regional diplomacy? Read the facts as described by former diplomats.Sri Lanka goes on a honeymoon with the Chinese,the Maldives snub us,we can't even sign a meaningful treaty with B'Desh and pro-China Nepal cares a hoot about our concerns.

The sad truth is that this regime has been so busy looting and scooting that it has had no time to concentrate upon India's diplomatic and military strategy in the face of the Sino-Pak combine that is rapidly strangulating us.if anyone thinks that our foreign and defence policy is sound and in sound hands,they are suffering from mental delusions and should see a shrink!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 May 2013 07:24 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2004 12:31
Posts: 151
Location: Mumbai
The whole border incursion exercise by the PLA is a prelude to the takeover of Chumar as I see it.IA should be very watchful of the events in that sector for the next six months,we should be having regular patrols & UAV surveillance.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 6648 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148 ... 167  Next

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dennis, Google Feedfetcher, kapio, nageshks, shinee, Vamsee, Yahoo [Bot] and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group