Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[A_Gupta]

The P.I.E. metaphor:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/2 ... Hypothesis

....But the idea of PIE itself still remains mostly a metaphoric prop. It is more a way to try to make sense of something that so far remains firmly in the 'unknowable' column (although it sees plenty of action in the 'theorizable' column) than an actual unified language that was actually spoken by actual people at some actual point in time.

As a language variationist by training, meaning as someone who conceptualizes variation and change as constant and defining features of living languages, I sometimes find it hard to justify (to myself, even) some of the compromises I have to make in order to teach concepts that can otherwise be difficult for students (and for me) to get their heads around. I do try to be up front about it, though, and explain to the students that I am asking them to join me in suspending our disbelief, that I think it's important for us to be conscious that we are in fact having to suspend disbelief and also for us to talk about why we have to, and that I haven't yet been able to figure out a way for us not to have to.

When we talk about PIE, we are going for convenience, for the short version, using a word (PIE) or a phrase (Proto-Indo-European) that refers not to a single, discrete language (if there even is such a thing) but to a multitude of meanings -- overlapping, complementary, contradictory -- to save us the time and trouble of stopping and pondering what all is contained within that word or phrase because if we did stop to ponder it, there's a good chance that we would never have time for anything else.

So PIE is a relief, a tool, a technological development that saves us the trouble of risking a time-consuming mind-blow every time we need to refer to what were probably a lot of different ways of speaking that varied across space, probably to the tune of thousands of miles, and over time, possibly even thousands of years, but that still are somehow, at least metaphorically, one. And not just any one, but for us the one: Proto-Indo-European, the one that gave rise to so many other ones: Greek, Bengali, Portuguese, Czech, Kurdish, Icelandic, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, Armenian, Yiddish, Latin, Afrikaans, Welsh, Catalan, Pashto, French, and English, to name a few. Some of them are still living and some are lost to the past, but even many of those lost languages have traces remaining somewhere in the approximately 440 Indo-European languages spoken in the 21st century by literally half the population of the planet Earth.

I think about this metaphor and ask the students to think about it (and about others we use in class) as a kind of "rounding off," roughly analogous to the way that we can do quick mathematical calculations of large numbers by rounding them off, trading off precision for speed and getting somewhere that probably isn't anywhere near close enough but we pretend it is because we have no choice. One metaphor explains another.

But there had to have been variation during the millenia that PIE is hypothesized to have been extant because there is always variation. Even in a classroom with 30 people in it, of whom 25 have lived their whole lives so far within a few hundred miles of one another, there is always significant variation. The students usually don't notice that much of it at first; like all speakers of all languages, they have spent their whole lives becoming proficient at instantaneously distinguishing between differences they need to pay attention to and the ones they can ignore. But in only a few short months, most of them become very, very good at noticing and describing even relatively slight differences among speakers.

On the other hand, the variation within what we conceptualize as 'PIE' was probably over time and across locations so great as to have meant mutual unintelligibility among its (possibly imaginary) speakers. So in essence, in teaching the Indo-European hypothesis, I am asking the students to imagine and accept as a kind of reality an idealized version of a language that nobody ever really spoke, to make a deal with me to treat the abstract as absolute, even though we know it isn't. Not even close. And yet.

[member_22872]

Among the great mathematicians G.H.Hardy stands tall, also because he mentored the genius Ramanujan. In his book "A Mathematician's Apology" Hardy briefly points out the achievements of various cultures of the past. Of course he mentions the Greeks, attributes Pythagorean theorem to Pythagorus, extols the achievements of Babylonians, yet again not a word about Indian mathematicians and their contributions. Yes it is very easy to guess that he was a British and lived when India was colonized. Now I see why Kaplan and other mathematicians attribute everything to Babylonians. I guess partly it is do with western Mathematicians crede of blindly taking what their peers and pedesessors said without the need of any vigor or proof when it comes matters which are non-mathematical in nature unfortunately. Partly I feel mathematicians are ignorant lot when it comes to finding facts about history.

[Nilesh Oak]

OT.. but releavant in big of schemes OIT
----------------
Question: Does reference of 'Matali' as charioteer of Indra appear anywhere else (specific references are required) other than Ramayana, when Matali assists Rama by being latter's charioteer during his fight with Ravana?

Appreciate the help.

[RajeshA]

Question: Does reference of 'Matali' as charioteer of Indra appear anywhere else (specific references are required) other than Ramayana, when Matali assists Rama by being latter's charioteer during his fight with Ravana?

Nilesh Oak ji,

In Padma Purana, Bhumikhand, there is a dialogue between King Yayati and Matali. Indra sends his chariot to bring Yayati to heaven. Yayati and Matali discuss the different types of sins and virtues.

There may be other references as well somewhere perhaps!

[RajeshA]

The Nagas: Origin of the Hopi Snake Clan?
By Gary A. David

[RajeshA]

Paracas Candelabra



On Paracas

Aashay Gune

त्रिशिराः कांचनः केतुस्तालस्य च महात्मनः
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः
पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत त्रि दशे श्वरै:
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः

This is the 'shlok' in Ramayana where Sugreev asks his 'Vanars' to go East in search of Seeta. He explains that 'Devas' built this structure to mark the Eastern Boundary of their kingdom. The structure is the golden colored 'Trishul' which is carved on a mountain. Further he explains that beyond this 'Trishul' is a huge mountain - which is the existing Andes Mountain Range! This structure is still present at Paracas (,Ica, Nasca,) Peru and the explanation matches its existence perfectly!

the ancient Ramayan says that except for America ( which was occupied by Danavas ) rest of the world was ruled by the Devas... and both of them were human races ( rather ' mavas bhau' ekmekanche ) There are many references of Peru and South America in Ramayana.

[ramana]

Was the Maya who built Indraprasth sabha a danava?

[RamaY]

Was the Maya who built Indraprasth sabha a danava?

Yes.

Maya (मय), or Mayāsura (मयासुर) was a great ancient king of the Asura, Daitya and Rakshasa races upon earth. He was also the chief architect of the people of the netherworld. He was renowned for his architectural abilities. It is said he ruled over MayaRastra (present day Meerut in India). It was believed that Maya and his people could even melt stones for constructing their great architectural wonders.

Tripura
He was the designer and king of the three flying cities, known as the Tripura. They were great cities of prosperity, power and dominance over the world, but due to their impious nature, Maya's cities were torched out of the sky by Lord Shiva. However, Maya escapes the destruction, as he is a devotee of Lord Shiva.

In the Ramāyana
He built his capital and called it Maya Rashtra, now Meerut.[1][2] MayaAsura is mentioned in Uttar-kãņḍa of Rāmāyaṇa and here he is told be the son of Diti (wife of Kashyapa a SaptaRisi),[3] He is the father of Mandodari, the beautiful wife of Ravana, the king of Lanka.[1] Mayasura is also regarded as a hero and father-figure for many rakshasa, asura, and daitya heroes in Hindu epics.

In the Mahābhārata
Maya Sabha on the inaugural day, with Pandava king Yudhisthira on the throne
When his life is spared by Krishna and Arjuna during the destruction of the Khandava forest, Maya offers his services to them. Krishna instructs Maya to construct a fabulous palace hall for Arjuna's elder brother, king Yudhisthira, at Indraprastha, which becomes the Mayasabha, renowned, beautiful and the largest of its kind. It had many specialities such as highly reflective floors that were easily mistaken as the surface of a pool of still water. There was also at least one pool of water, the surface of which mimicked a decorated floor, into which Duryodhana fell, and was subsequently taunted and humiliated by Draupadi.

It may be different Mayas that are mentioned in different stories but belonging to same clan/caste

[RajeshA]

Was the Maya who built Indraprasth sabha a danava?

Well the Paracas Skulls and talk of 2.6 meter tall hominins are indeed intriguing.

[AbhiJ]

Our view of human history colors the perception of who we are in a fundamental way. It creates the
infrastructure of ideas according to which we interpret the world. Like the limitations of our senses we
seldom question the limitations of our historical view, which we take as a given fact, even though it
changes with every generation. Each society creates an idea of history through which it interprets
civilization in its own image. In the modern age science, technology and rational materialism have created
an historical view that makes ancient Greece, in which the seeds of modern culture arose, the basis of
civilization as a whole. It looks to the precursors of civilization in the ancient Near East, Sumeria and
Egypt, from which the Greeks derived the rudiments of their culture. This view ignores or denigrates
other ancient traditions like those of India, China or Mesoamerica as of little importance. Indeed if we
examine books on world history today we discover that they are largely histories of modern Europ, with
non-European cultures turned into a mere footnote, or simply dismissed as primitive, that is not
technologically advanced, however spiritually or artistically evolved they may have been.
In the post-colonial era, however, we are now questioning this Eurocentric and materialistic view of
humanity. We are recognizing the value of traditional cultures and indigenous peoples, whose
mistreatment and devaluation now appears on par with the destruction of our natural environment that we
have been hastily promoting in the name of material progress. With a new understanding of depth
psychology, mythology and comparative religion we are gaining a greater appreciation of spiritual ways of
life, like the science of yoga, which developed outside of both the European and Middle Eastern cultural
matrixes.
A number of racial, ethnic and religious groups have challenged their negative portrayal in modern
Eurocentric historical accounts. For example, the European conquest of America, which was previously
regarded as the benign expansion of advanced European civilization, is now being reinterpreted as a
genocide of native peoples and destruction of their ancient cultures. Non-European cultures are no longer
accepting the European interpretation of their histories, which not surprisingly makes their cultures inferior
to that of Europe. This movement of historical rectification is bringing about a revolution in our view of
history that is only just beginning and is bound to change our idea of who we are as human beings.
India is another country whose history has been greatly distorted by a colonial and materialistic European
bias. India was the foremost of the British colonies and the center for the spiritual view of humanity that
the materialistic mind has ever opposed. Now historians of ancient India are raising questions about the
Eurocentric interpretation of Indian history and bringing forth new views that give greater validity to the
traditional culture and literature of the subcontinent which has always emphasized the spiritual life.
In this article we will examine important new discoveries in regard to ancient India that show the need
for a radical reexamination of the history of the region. A careful study of the data today reveals that
existing accounts of ancient India and thereby world history as well - particularly the Aryan invasion
theory which is the cornerstone of the Eurocentric interpretation of India - are contrary to all the evidence and need to be totally altered. This is indeed a bold statement but, if true as the facts outlined below will
indicate, requires changing the entire way in which Indian civilization has been evaluated

Many leads in the link:

http://sgm.pcriot.com/pdf/Aryan%20Invas ... rawley.pdf

[AbhiJ]

All the ancient societies along the Pacific Rim trace their social order to India.

Balinese and Hawaiian Social Systems

For most of the twentieth century, people had assumed that the "caste system" in Bali was a direct result of Indian influence that came with the Hindu religion. However, anthropologists now wonder if the caste system in Bali was always there but with different names. The reason for this is that anthropologists have now began to look at other Austronesians--mainly Samoan and Hawaiian societies--and saw remarkable similarities with Bali. In many ways, Balinese and Hawaiian societies mirrored each other very closely.
We know that in the case of Samoan and Hawaiian societies there was a strong class division that developed without any influence from other foreign civilizations. In the case of Hawai`i in particular, by the time of Captain Cook's voyage in 1778, the Hawaiian class system resembled Balinese caste system. In Bali, while it is called a caste system, the classes do intermingle and there is some upward social mobility under certain circumstances. However, there is still difference to rank and this rank caste comes from a genealogical relationship with a god. This is not the case in India where it is a true "caste" system meaning that there is no upward social mobility. A person of the Dalit or Untouchable caste can be a billionaire but he or she will never be able to marry someone of the Brahman caste or to be anything except a Dalit. In the case of Bali, there is some ways to improve your caste standing, mainly through intermarriage.
This was also the case of Hawai`i. While the ali`i or nobility was the top class, they could intermarry with someone of a lower class. There is the famous story of `Umi-a-Liloa who was the son of an ali`i and commoner but was able to become king due to his personal charisma and due corruption (both politically and spiritually) of the king, his half-brother, at the time. In other words, in Austronesian class systems, there is some flexibility. On the other hand, Dr. Stephen Oppenheimer wonders if perhaps it was Austronesians who influenced early Indian society and brought with them to India their notions of class divisions.
In Bali, there are four main castes or varna: Sudras (peasants); Wesias or Vaishyas (merchants); Satrias or Kshatriyas (warriors and nobility); and Brahman (priests). According to Balinese themselves, the varnas simply modified the existing social order. Each caste has a particular dialect though this is disappearing in public as more people have adopted Bahasa Indonesia as means to speak to people of various classes without offending them. Among the Brahman, the language used is called "High Balinese" which is old Javanese mixed (Kawi) with Sanskrit--somewhat similar to the language used in the "Laguna Copperplate" found in the Philippines. This language is also used as the language of temple ceremonies. There is also a "Middle Balinese" which is a language that can be used between the different classes but this sometimes troublesome as some terms may have a different meaning between people of the same class and therefore may lead to some offense. Thus, Bahasa Indonesia has become a neutral language of communication.

n certain parts of Bali, mainly in the Aga (non-Hindu Balinese, literally meaning "original") villages of Tenganen and Trunyan, there is also another social system. This social system is divided into three main class: peasants, nobility, and priests. The Aga system is very similar to the Hawaiian system. The Hawaiian social system also had the same three classes--nobility or ali`i, kahuna or priestly, and the maka`ainana or commoners--though periodically there was another extremely small social sub-class known as the kauwa.The kauwa was akin to the alipin of the Philippines meaning while both terms are translated as "slave", they had rights and were regarded as extensions of a nobleman's household. However, in Hawai`i this class of people was extremely small--small enough that no European explorer noticed them, Hawaiian mythology does not mention them, and they were eventually abolished in 1810. Normally in Hawai`i, a person would become a kauwa if they were in debt or had lost a war which means that the kauwa were actually drawn from the nobility itself since in Hawai`i--like in Bali--only nobles were allowed to carry weapons and to fight in wars. This could explain why there was no explanation in Hawaiian mythology.

In both Bali and in Hawai`i, the class systems have today largely become simply symbols of the past. In the case of Hawai`i, it was due to the Hawaiian religion being abolished under Premier Ka`ahumanu in 1819 and later with the American take-over in 1893. With Bali, the Dutch colonial experience largely enforced the class system as the Dutch found it easier to control the sudra--though many Balinese refused to submit and to collaborate with the Dutch and there were several mass suicides as late as 1908. Later on, with the democratization of Balinese society after Indonesian independence, the rise of Dadias, and Christian missionaries trying to convert the Balinese, the class system became less enforced. Nowadays, the Brahman are only ones who still retain some of their traditional role. Some Balinese, however, worry about the Brahmans becoming too influenced by India and there are movements to try to retain the distinctive Austronesian-ness of the Balinese Hinduism.

Another aspect of the social system is kinship. In Bali, there are two types of kinship: public kinship; and private kinship. The private kinship is sometimes called the "Hawaiian kinship" or the "Generational kinship" by anthropologists. In old Hawai`i, family relations depended on what generation you were born into. For example, uncles, aunts, and parents in old Hawai`i were all calledmakua (parent) because they were of the same generation. Likewise, your first cousins may refer to you as their brother or sister because you were both born in the same generation of the family line. Your second cousins (even if they are older than you), however, may refer to you as a makua since you are above them genealogy-wise. Of course with the adoption of Western family ties, this was replaced with the European model.
In the public kinship system, all Balinese belong to various Dadia. A dadia is a kinship relation where several families (sometimes consisting of several thousand people) are bound together in a clan or block because of a common ancestor. Traditionally, the dadia was important because of marital relationships. It was preferred that people marry within the same dadia and during times of trouble, an entire dadia was bound to help each family member out including in warfare. Likewise, under this system, there are no orphans as every member of a dadia would be obligated to help that child and adoptions within a dadia used to be common--like with the Hawaiian system of hanai. The dadia members also normally lived close to each other, share the same family shrines (gede), share in planting and harvesting of crops, participate in the same ceremonies and attended the same temples. Today,dadia are important politically because they are voting blocks and some say a source of corruption. A Balinese politician would try to court dadia family heads in order for ensure that the entire dadia would vote for him or her. Likewise, when a Balinese politician is elected, one of his or her first acts would be to ensure spoils to the dadiathat voted for him.
With Hawaiians, there was a concept similar to the dadia called `alaea which for the most part was a clan composed of the commoner class. However, there has not been too much research on this aspect of Hawaiian society since anthropological research tends to be centered around the ali`i since there's more resources. In addition, one can argue that organizations (particularly the so-called "ali`i societies") like Ka Mamakaua or the Daughters and Sons of Hawaiian Warriors (photo below of a Ka Mamakaua ceremony from the 1930s) and the Order of Kamehameha are forms of dadia.

In regards to the Balinese dadia--though in Mindanao, you will find something similar among T'boli, the Tausugs, and especially the Maranao (which they sometimes call agakhan). One can also wonder if the barangay (town or canoe) system with the Tagalogs also had originally operated like thedadia. In addition, the dadia seems to also have striking similarities with the iwi (normally translated as tribe) of the Maori of Aotearoa-New Zealand and the way certain Samoan fale (houses) operate. This seems to suggest that the dadia is something indigenous to various Austronesian societies.

[Murugan]

An article on antiquity of IVC in National Geographic

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com ... ent-241634

Note, how the author title the article playing dirty white identity politics even with heritage shared by common people:

"Revealing India and Pakistan’s Ancient Art and Inventions"


***

Another article on IVC

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... y-science/

Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization

[svinayak]

***

Another article on IVC

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... y-science/

Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization

Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization
Archaeologists say the Indus civilization wasn’t nearly as peaceful as popularly thought.


Images are built on such article. The new image they are creating is a violent region from the ancient times. This is like setting a stage before some wars happen in the region and then show how it is similar to the past

[RajeshA]

***

Another article on IVC

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... y-science/

Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization

Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization
Archaeologists say the Indus civilization wasn’t nearly as peaceful as popularly thought.


Images are built on such article. The new image they are creating is a violent region from the ancient times. This is like setting a stage before some wars happen in the region and then show how it is similar to the past

Well the effort is of course for one sect to reject the other sect, for one Dharmic school to reject another.

1) This may be some effort to e.g. to claim that society had become very violent under Brahmanic order and it was Buddha who restored peace.

2) It may be an effort to portray Sanatan Dharma as violent, so that the many Westerners who are thronging to Yoga and all sorts of Dharmic movements have a second thought about it.

There are people like Kancha Iliah who have been portraying Bhagavad Gita as an essentially violent book. Indus Valley Civilization if painted as violent would go along with the narrative.

For a long time, West was able to cage Indian resurgence through Gandhian non-violence. Now perhaps they wish to cage the new Indian resurgence through outright demonization as a violent barbaric creed.

There is no limits to where the Westerners would not go to dictate the the narrative about India and to cage it.

[svinayak]

There is no limits to where the Westerners would not go to dictate the the narrative about India and to cage it.

Indians let it happen
Once India metally comes out of the cage then it is free. Indians were always free

[RajeshA]

Taoism <- Shaivism ?

I have a theory that Taoism in China is a derivative of Shaivism from Bharat.

I may of course be wrong but it is possible that Tao (Dao) is a cognate of Shaivo. As an exercise, perhaps people who know native Chinese can ask them to pronounce Tao 道 and Shaivo, and see if there is any similarity. As Indian words traveled East their pronunciation changed.

Dao is translated as 'way', but if it (Chinese) Shaivism was the only way in China at the time, then of course one could translate it as "the way".

Lao Tzu wrote the Dao De Jing

Lao Tzu was born in the village of Chu Jen in the Kingdom of Ch'u. (He may have been born sometime in the sixth century B.C.E. [Before the Common Era]. Traditionally, he is said to have lived at the same time as Confucius, but recent scholars place him about two centuries later.) Lao Tzu spent most of his life as an archivist in the library of the Zhou Dynasty court, a boring job that gave him lots of time to think. He quit when he saw things were getting corrupt, and then went into exile. Lao Tzu became disturbed by the corruption he saw everywhere around him and decided to take the easy way out- literally, and leave the country. He traveled west on a water buffalo to reach the great desert. At the westernmost gate, a guard who recognized him, demanded that he write down his teachings, unrecorded until this point. The collected teachings became the Tao Te Ching.

What we know is that Laozi or Lao Tzu traveled West from China. This is of course where he could have come into contact with Shaivism, then quite well known in Kashmir, Ladakh and Tibet.



The Yin-Yang symbol is often looked at from the perspective of a balance between two halves - the female black and the male white. What perhaps is overlooked is the Kundalini-representing serpentine wave passing through the middle.

[johneeG]

So where did the knowledge of elephants come to the Mayas? Interesting query!

The entire South America including Mexico is very interesting. Few works do exists (P V Vartak, Chaman Lal and few others) and these need to be revised in the light of new researches.

I became interested in Mayan, Aztecs and Incas, long before my love affair with Archeo-Astronomy. Currently reading about Cuzco/Lake Titicaca. Heading there Dec 2013 (1 year 4 months from now).

Planning to visit Copan (Honduras) and Tikal (Guatemala) durign Spring 2013. Been to Mexico.. Tula, Teotiacuan, Chichen Itza, etc.

I realized that I must put forward chronology of Mahabharata and Ramayana first, before exploring South America for its connections with ancient India.

Now that RejeshA ji, you brought up the subject, here is just highlight of what to come.. may not be part of my book on Dating of Ramayana.. but this stuff is in the works too...



Known as candlebra of Andes, on North west coast of Paracas - Bay of Pisco, Peru (tentative plan to be there in Dec 2013 as well).

In Ramayana, Sugriva explain direction east, to search party going east - in search of Sita- and asks Vanara party to look for a structure, after crossing Kshir-udak (ocean)

त्रिशिराः काञ्चनः केतुस्तालस्तस्य महात्मनः |
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः || ४७||

पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत्त्रिदशेश्वरैः |
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः || ४८||

Compare description of first verse with picture above. Secon verse describes who built this , when and why!

(This discovery, in the context of Ramayana is that of Dr. P V Vartak, as far as I know). My contibution is not unlike that of squirrel (non Valimiki Ramayana versions) to Nala-setu (work of Vartak).

My contriubtion is to notice सवेदिका portion of the shlok. Notice square (vedi) at the bottom/base of this trident.
There is much much more exciting stuff realted to this, but for now, this will do.

Link to original post

Satya_Anveshi, Thanks for the summary. BTW in Valmiki Ramayana Sugriva gives a very extensive geographical search area to his sena. It covers a lot of modern Central Asia.

Sugriva's descriptions can be corrborated (some better than others)....

To North .. upto Arctic sea(Siberia) via Gobi
To west... via Iran...all the way to either eastern part of mediterrian (assuming mediterian sea existed) or upto west coast of Spain.
To East.. Burma, Thailand, Indonesia..~ Japan.. crossing Pacific upto coastal areas of Chile/Peru
To south - Lanka, but could be as far as Antartica.

Link to original post

Paracas Candelabra



On Paracas

Aashay Gune

त्रिशिराः कांचनः केतुस्तालस्य च महात्मनः
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः
पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत त्रि दशे श्वरै:
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः

This is the 'shlok' in Ramayana where Sugreev asks his 'Vanars' to go East in search of Seeta. He explains that 'Devas' built this structure to mark the Eastern Boundary of their kingdom. The structure is the golden colored 'Trishul' which is carved on a mountain. Further he explains that beyond this 'Trishul' is a huge mountain - which is the existing Andes Mountain Range! This structure is still present at Paracas (,Ica, Nasca,) Peru and the explanation matches its existence perfectly!

the ancient Ramayan says that except for America ( which was occupied by Danavas ) rest of the world was ruled by the Devas... and both of them were human races ( rather ' mavas bhau' ekmekanche ) There are many references of Peru and South America in Ramayana.

This is an excellent work.

तत्र तत् कोपजम् तेजः कृतम् हयमुखम् महत् || ४-४०-४८
अस्य आहुः तन् महावेगम् ओदनम् स चराचरम् |

"There exists a fantastically refulgent Fire in the form of Horse's Face that originated from the anger of Sage Aurasa. The victuals to that Fire is said to be that highly speedy waves of the ocean, together with all of the mobile and sessile beings of the world at the close of each Era. [4-40-48b, 49a](This seems to be a volcano in the pacific ocean)

तत्र विक्रोशताम् नादो भूतानाम् सागर ओकसाम् |
श्रूयते च असमर्थानाम् दृष्ट्वा तत् वडवा मुखम् || ४-४०-४९

"There the high squealing sounds of oceanic beings dwelling undersea are audible, and although they are capable ones, they are incapacitated on feeling Fire from the Horse Mouth as such they yell. [4-40-49b, c]

स्वादु उदस्य उत्तरे देशे योजनानि त्रयोदश |
जातरूप शिलो नाम सुमहान् कनक प्रभः || ४-४०-५०

"On the northern province of that soft-water ocean there is a hugely enormous mountain named Jaataruupa-shila, Golden Rock Mountain, which glitters like gold and which spreads across thirteen yojana-s. [4-40-50]

तत्र चन्द्र प्रतीकाशम् पन्नगम् धरणी धरम् |
पद्म पत्र विशालाक्षम् ततो द्रक्ष्यध वानराः || ४-४०-५१
आसीनम् पर्वतस्य अग्रे सर्व भूत नमस्कृतम् |
सहस्र शिरसम् देवम् अनंतम् नील वाससम् || ४-४०-५२

"There you shall see then, oh, vanara-s, the lotus-petal broad-eyed thousand-hooded serpent god in black clothing, namely Ananta, sitting on the top of that mountain and sustaining the earth on his head, who will be like moon in his brilliance and whom all beings hold in reverence. [4-40-51, 52]
(American Indians i.e. Red Indians worship the snakes. Infact, their tiara consists of snake emblem.)

त्रिशिराः कांचनः केतुः तालः तस्य महात्मनः |
स्थापितः पर्वतस्य अग्रे विराजति स वेदिकः || ४-४०-५३

"A golden pylon resembling a palm tree with three branches as its heads is established on the peak of that mountain as the insignia of that great-souled Ananta, and it will be lustrous with a golden podium. [4-40-53]

पूर्वस्याम् दिशि निर्माणम् कृतम् तत् त्रिदशेश्वरैः |
ततः परम् हेममयः श्रीमान् उदय पर्वतः || ४-४०-५४
तस्य कोटिः दिवम् स्पृष्ट्वा शत योजनम् आयता |
जातरूपमयी दिव्या विराजति स वेदिका || ४-४०-५५

"That pylon of palm tree is constructed as the easterly compass by celestials gods, and beyond that a completely golden mountain is there, namely the august Udaya Mountain, the Mt. Sunrise, beyond which it is all west. The pinnacles of Mt. Sunrise will be touching heavens for their height is hundred yojana-s and that divine mountain greatly glitters for it is completely golden, and it is pedestalled with suchlike glittering mountains. [4-40-54, 55]
(This description matches the Candelabra perfectly... So, by the above interpretation of the shlokas, it means Andes Mountains are Purva-adhri or Udaya Parvatha?
)

सालैः तालैः तमालैः च कर्णिकारैः च पुष्पितैः |
जातरूपमयैः दिव्यैः शोभते सूर्य सन्निभैः || ४-४०-५६

"That Mt. Sunrise will be splendorous with well flowered and beautiful saala, palm, Tamaala, and Karnikaara trees which are completely golden in hue and which will be glittering similar to sun. [4-40-56]

तत्र योजन विस्तारम् उच्छ्रितम् दश योजनम् |
शृंगम् सौमनसम् नाम जातरूपमयम् ध्रुवम् || ४-४०-५७

"On the apex of that Mt. Sunrise there is another pinnacle with one yojana width and ten yojana-s height named Saumanasa, which is completely golden and very firm. [4-40-57]
(This Saumanasa may be a mountain among the Andes, or it may also be a description of a golden pyramid on the top of a mountain.)

तत्र पूर्वम् पदम् कृत्वा पुरा विष्णुः त्रिविक्रमे |
द्वितीयम् शिखरम् मेरोः चकार पुरुषोत्तमः || ४-४०-५८
"Earlier while treading the three worlds in the incarnation of Trivikrama, the Supreme Person Vishnu made His first foothold on that pinnacle Saumanasa, and the second on the pinnacle of Mt. Meru to tread the heavens. [4-40-58]
(If it is a pyramid, then it may have been built to honor the Trivikrama i.e. Vamana.)

उत्तरेण परिक्रम्य जंबू द्वीपम् दिवाकरः |
दृश्यो भवति भूयिष्ठम् शिखरम् तन् महोच्छ्रयम् || ४-४०-५९
"The Sun is by far discernable in Jambu Dwiipa when he rises on this zenithal pinnacle Saumanasa, after he had circled the Jambu Dwiipa in a northerly route. [4-40-59]
(That makes perfect sense! So, when it is dawn(brahma-muhurtha i.e. 3:00 A.M.) in Jambu Dwipa(Asia?), the Sun is around Andes Mountain...)

तत्र वैखानसा नाम वालखिल्या महर्षयः |
प्रकाशमाना दृश्यन्ते सूर्य वर्णाः तपस्विनः || ४-४०-६०
"There the great-sages with nomenclature of Vaikhanasa-s and Vaalakhilyaa-s will come into view with an ambience of luminosity, for those ascetics will be with the resplendence of the Sun. [4-40-60]

अयम् सुदर्शनो द्वीपः पुरो यस्य प्रकाशते |
तस्मिन् तेजः च चक्षुः च सर्व प्राणभृताम् अपि || ४-४०-६१
"In the presence of which resplendence the eyes of all living beings will become enlightened, and whereat that illuminating entity of universe, namely the Sun, will be sojourning, this is that Sudarshana Island, named so because it contains Sudarshana lake. [4-40-61]
(Sudarshana Lake? Is it possible that this Lake which is mentioned is Lake Titicaca which is situated in Andes Mountains?

Lake Titicaca is a lake in the Andes on the border of Peru and Bolivia. By volume of water, it is the largest lake in South America.[2][3] Lake Maracaibo has a larger surface area, but is often regarded as a large brackish bay due to its direct connection with the sea.

It is often called the highest navigable lake in the world, with a surface elevation of 3,812 m (12,507 ft).[4][5] Although this refers to navigation by large boats, it's generally considered to mean commercial craft. At least two dozen bodies of water around the world are at higher elevations, but all are much smaller and shallower.[6]

Wiki Link
)

शैलस्य तस्य पृष्ठेषु कंदरेषु वनेषु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गितव्यः ततः ततः || ४-४०-६२
"On the top of that Mt. Sunrise, and even in its cave and forests of that island Ravana is to be searched, together with Seetha. [4-40-62]

कांचनस्य च शैलस्य सूर्यस्य च महात्मनः |
आविष्टा तेजसा संध्या पूर्वा रक्ता प्रकाशते || ४-४०-६३
"The eastern aurora glows redly because the golden hue of Mt. Sunrise imbricates the resplendence of the beneficent Sun. [4-40-63]

पूर्वम् एतत् कृतम् द्वारम् पृथिव्या भुवनस्य च |
सूर्यस्य उदयनम् चैव पूर्वा हि एषा दिक् उच्यते || ४-४०-६४
"In the beginning Brahma, the Creator, ordained this Mt. Sunrise to be the gateway for the earth to heaven, and even as the rising place for the Sun, as such this is verily said as the 'eastern quarter' of the compass. [4-40-64]

तस्य शलस्य पृष्ठेषु निर्झरेषु गुहासु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गतव्या ततः ततः || ४-४०-६५
"Ransack that mountain's peak, even thereabout the rapids and caverns of that mountain for Vaidehi, and even for Ravana. [4-40-65]

ततः परम् अगम्या स्यात् दिक् पूर्वा त्रिदश आवृता |
रहिता चन्द्र सूर्याभ्याम् अदृश्या तिमिर आवृता || ४-४०-६६
"Beyond Mt. Sunrise the eastern quarter is impassable. It will be hemmed in with gods since it the gateway to heaven, and everything is imperceivable hedged in oblivion, since it will be void of both Sun and Moon. [4-40-66]

एतावत् वानरैः शक्यम् गन्तुम् वानर पुंगवाः |
अभास्करम् अमर्यादम् न जानीमः ततः परम् || ४-४०-६८
"It is possible for the vanara-s to go only up to there, oh, best vanara-s, and we have no knowledge of those sunless and boundless realms available far and beyond. [4-40-68]

Link

Sun is also worshiped in those parts, so that is another connection.

Is it possible to identify other markers mentioned by the Sugriva?

I tried to do it, but its a bit confusing.

But, Sugriva says:

सौराष्ट्रान् सह बाह्लीकान् चंद्रचित्रान् तथैव च || ४-४२-६
स्फीतान् जन पदान् रम्यान् विपुलानि पुराणि च |
पुंनाग गहनम् कुक्षिम् वकुल उद्दालक आकुलम् || ४-४२-७
तथा केतक खँडान् च मार्गध्वम् हरि पुंगवाः |
"Oh, best monkeys, conduct search in the Suraashtra, Baahlika and Chandhra-chithra provinces, including their extensive and delightful rural areas and spacious cities, as well as in their woods with Punnaaga trees, areas filled with Vakula, and Uddalaka trees and in their interiors, and even in the thickets of Ketaka trees. [4-42-6b, 7, 8a]
(Sugriva starts his description of west from Saurashtra i.e. Gujarath. And from there to Baahlika i.e Bactaria. Baahlika includes Turkmenisthan and Afghanisthan.)

प्रत्यक् स्रोतो वहाः चैव नद्यः शीतजलाः शिवाः || ४-४२-८
तापसानाम् अरण्यानि कांतारा गिरयः च ये |
तत्र स्थलीः मरुप्राया अति उच्च शिखराः शिलाः || ४-४२-९
गिरि जाल आवृताम् दुर्गाम् मार्गित्वा पश्चिमाम् दिशम् |
ततः पश्चिमम् आगम्य समुद्रम् द्रष्टुम् अर्हथ || ४-४२-१०
तिमि नक्र आकुल जलम् गत्वा द्रक्ष्यथ वानराः |
"Oh, vanara-s, search at the blest rivers in the west whose cool water flows westward, as well as in the forests of sages and on the mountains of those forests, and even in lands that are virtually waterless and on the highly towering mountains that are chilly. On searching such an impassable western quarter encircled with enmeshed mountains, then it will be apt of you to come and see Western Ocean. Having come to Western Ocean, you will see seawater ruffled by sharks and crocodiles. [8b, 9, 10, 11a]

ततः केतक खँडेषु तमाल गहनेषु च || ४-४२-११
कपयो विहरिष्यन्ति नारिकेल वनेषु च |
"Later the monkeys may ramble in the shrubberies of Ketaka plants, in copses of Tamaala plants and in the boscages of coconut trees. [4-42-11b, 12a]

तत्र सीताम् च मार्गध्वम् निलयम् रावणस्य च || ४-४२-१२
वेलातल निवेष्टेषु पर्वतेषु वनेषु च |
मुरची पत्तनम् चैव रम्यम् चैव जटा पुरम् || ४-४२-१३
अवंतीम् अंगलेपाम् च तथा च अलक्षितम् वनम् |
राष्ट्राणि च विशालानि पत्तनानि ततः ततः || ४-४२-१४
"Seetha shall be searched along with the residency of Ravana on the mountains that are sitting pretty on the seashore, as well as in the forests on those mountains. Further, the delightful cities available alongshore like Muraci, Jaatapura, Avanti and Angalepa are to be searched together with the forest of Alakshita, including the nearby provinces and spacious townships. [4-42-12b, 13, 14]
These are said as cities with names of muralii, jaTiipuram, in other mms, and it is also said to be Maurvi. The said Avanti is not the Avanti already said to the monkeys who were sent to east. is 'un-cared-for' as the thick woods at its periphery make the interiors of forest neglected.

सिंधु सागरयोः चैव संगमे तत्र पर्वतः |
महान् हेम गिरिः नाम शत शृंगो महाद्रुमः || ४-४२-१५
"At the junction of River Sindhu with the ocean, Mouth of Indus, there is a huge mountain named Hemagiri, Golden-Mountain, which is with hundreds of summits and gigantic trees. [4-42-15]
(Here, Sindhu may refer to the river. But, it may also refer to the region Sindhu. Further, there is also a possibility that Sindhu and Sagara may be referring to Arab Sea and Indian Ocean. Indian Ocean may be called Sindhu. So, Arab Sea/Sagar may be called Sagara...)

तत्र प्रस्थेषु रम्येषु सिंहाः पक्ष गमाः स्थिताः |
तिमि मत्स्य गजाम्ब् चैव नीडानि आरोपयन्ति ते || ४-४२-१६
"On the beautiful ridges of that mountain flying-lions are inhibiting and they will be winching sharks, fish and elephant seals to their lairs. [4-42-16]

तानि नीडानि सिंहानाम् गिरि शृंग गताः च ये |
दृप्ताः तृप्ताः च मातंगाः तोयद स्वन निःस्वनाः || ४-४२-१७
विचरन्ति विशाले अस्मिन् तोय पूर्णे समन्ततः |
"The elephants inhibiting on the top of that mountain are contended and conceited, and trumpeting like thunderous clouds they will be moving everywhere in that vast area of the mountain abutted by water and near at the lairs of flying-lions. [4-42-17, 18a]

तस्य शृंगम् दिव स्पर्शम् कांचनम् चित्र पादपम् ||४-४२-१८
सर्वम् आशु विचेतव्यम् कपिभिः काम रूपिभिः |
"The monkeys who can change their guise by their wish have to quickly and entirely search the golden peak of that Hemagiri which will be touching the sky and which has amazing trees on it. [4-42-18b, 19a]

कोटिम् तत्र समुद्रे तु कांचनीम् शत योजनम् || ४-४२-१९
दुर्दर्शाम् पारियात्रस्य गता द्रक्ष्यथ वानराः |
"On your seagoing there, oh, vanara-s, you will see the golden peak of a waterlogged mountain called Mt. Paariyaatra, which peak will be hundred yojana-s in height, and which is difficult to see as it will be blindingly glittering. [4-42-19b, 20a](Which Samudhra is this?)

कोट्यः तत्र चतुर्विंशत् गंधर्वाणाम् तरस्विनाम् || ४-४२-२०
वसन्ति अग्नि निकाशानाम् घोराणाम् काम रूपिणाम् |
"Twenty four crores of mighty and atrocious Gandharva-s whose glow is similar to the fire and who can change their guise at their wish are living there on that mountain Paariyaatra. [4-42-20b, 21a]
the Paariyaatra Mountain may perhaps belong to one in Suleiman Range, now in Pakistan, but not the one among Vindhya Range.

पावक अर्चिः प्रतीकाशाः समवेताः समन्ततः || ४-४२-२१
न अति आसादयित्वाः ते वानरैः भीम विक्रमैः |
"If those Gandharva-s who resemble the tongues of fire are given offence, they will be thronging together from everywhere, as such even awfully courageous vanara-s shall not provoke them.
[4-42-21b, 22a](So, these regions were occupied by Gandharvas once. In Uttara Ramayana, these Gandharvas in all these regions are defeated by Bharatha, Sri Rama's brother. So, Gandharvas may have been limited to Himalayan Mountains near Kailasa. In MB, Gandharvas are said to live near Kailasa...)

न अदेयम् च फलम् तस्मात् देशात् किंचित् प्लवंगमैः || ४-४२-२२
दुरासदा हि ते वीराः सत्त्ववन्तो महाबलाः |
फल मूलानि ते तत्र रक्षन्ते भीम विक्रमाः || ४-४२-२३
"And the fly-jumpers shall not pluck at least a fruit in that province. Because those assiduous, highly mighty and valiant Gandharva-s are impossible for overtures, isn't it. Moreover, those appallingly audacious Gandharva-s will be safeguarding fruits and tubers there. [4-42-22, 23]

This area must be in and around present day Afghanistan because it is famous for dry fruits and it is the age-old practice of Kabuli Walla-s to sell most delicious dry-fruits. When they grow that kind of high-grade fruits which orchardist allows a monkey to pluck and plunder them.

तत्र यत्नः च कर्तव्यो मार्गितव्या च जानकी |
न हि तेभ्यो भयम् किंचित् कपित्वम् अनुवर्तताम् || ४-४२-२४
"There you have to put yourself in devoir and search for Janaki. In the event of your following just monkey-hood and its antics, without becoming adventuresome, there will be no scare from those Gandharva-s. Then you proceed from that Mt. Paariyaatra to Mt. Vajra. [4-42-24]


तत्र वैदूर्य वर्णाभो वज्र संस्थान संस्थितः |
नाना द्रुम लता आकीर्णो वज्रः नाम महागिरिः || ४-४२-२५
श्रीमान् समुदितः तत्र योजनानाम् शतम् समम् |
गुहाः तत्र विचेतव्याः प्रयत्नेन प्लवंगमाः || ४-४२-२६
"Oh, fly-jumpers, there is a great mountain named Mt. Vajra in that sea beyond Mt. Paariyaatra. It will be with a shine similar to the hue of the gemstone lapis, and it will be standing like a diamond in its shape, hence it is diamondiferous. There that glorious mountain will be soaring high, squarely for a hundred yojana-s, and diverse trees and climbers will be spreading over it. There, on that mountain you have to search pursuantly including its caverns. [4-42-25, 26]

चतुर् भागे समुद्रस्य चक्रवान् नाम पर्वतः |
तत्र चक्रम् सहस्रारम् निर्मितम् विश्वकर्मणा || ४-४२-२७
"In the fourth quarter of that ocean from land a mountain named Cakravaan is there. Vishvakarma, the Divine Architect, constructed a thousand-spoked wheel on it. [4-42-27]

This is not just a wheel with thousand spokes, but said to be a machine of weaponry with thousand parts or sub-weapons. The Divine Architect Vishvakarma constructs such marvellous things not only for to gods, but even to the demons, while coming under duress, as and when demons conquer Indra's paradise. In the following verses, a connected legend is also touched.

तत्र पंचजनम् हत्वा हयग्रीवम् च दानवम् |
आजहार ततः चक्रम् शंखम् च पुरुषोत्तमः || ४-४२-२८
puraaNa/Legend: "Once upon a time in the crusades of gods-demons, Vishnu assuming the form of puroSottama 'Supreme Person' slew the horse-faced demon named Hayagreeva on that mountain, and snatched away the wheel-weapon from him. Until then, this wheel-weapon existed under the custody of that demon Hayagreeva. Purushottama also put another demon Pancajana to death on that very mountain and took away his backbone, which is a conch-shell. Thus the conch-shell handled by Vishnu is known as paancha janya shankha 'Paanchajanya conch.' Thus, this Cakravaan named mountain assumes legendary importance to search for Seetha. [4-42-28]

तस्य सानुषु रम्येषु विशालासु गुहासु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गितव्यः ततः ततः || ४-४२-२९
"Vaidehi is to be searched on the delightful cliffs of that Mt. Cakravaan and also in its spacious caves, together with Ravana, and search for her here, there, and everywhere. [4-42-29]

योजनानि चतुः षष्टिः वराहो नाम पर्वतः |
सुवर्ण शृंगः सुमहान् अगाधे वरुण आलये || ४-४२-३०
"After sixty-four yojana-s another very great mountain with golden peaks is there in abyss of the abode of Rain-god, namely the ocean, and it is named as Mt. Varaaha. [4-42-30]

तत्र प्राक् ज्योतिषम् नाम जातरूपमयम् पुरम् |
यस्मिन् वसति दुष्ट आत्मा नरको नाम दानवः || ४-४२-३१
"A city named Praagjyotisha is there which is completely golden, wherein the evil-minded demon named Naraka is living. [4-42-31]

This Praagjyotisha is held as the present Assam as has been referred by Kalidasa in his works and some say that this place should not have been referred here. The inclusion of this verse is said to be the problem with the copyist.

तत्र सानुषु रम्येषु विशालासु गुहासु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गितव्यः ततः ततः || ४-४२-३२
"There on the delightful cliffs and spacious caves of that Mt. Varaaha, including that city Praagjyotisha, Ravana shall be searched together with Vaidehi. [4-42-32]

तम् अतिक्रम्य शैलेन्द्रम् कांचनान् अन्तर दर्शनम् |
पर्वतः सर्व सौवर्णो धारा प्रस्रवण आयुतः || ४-४२-३३
"On ranging from that best Mt. Varaaha, whose caves are inlaid with gold-deposits apparent to the naked eye, there is an entirely golden mountain containing waterfalls and rapids called Meghavanta. [4-42-33]
(Is it possible that these Varaaha mountains are the Kuh Rud Mountains in Iran? )


तम् गजाः च वराहाः च सिंहा व्याघ्राः च सर्वतः |
अभिगर्जन्ति सततम् तेन शब्देन दर्पिताः || ४-४२-३४
"Listening the sonorous sounds of waterfalls and rapids of that mountain, and construing them to be the roars of their opponent beasts, the elephants, wild boars, lions, and tigers will always be facing that mountain and roaring proud-heartedly all around it, by which that Mt. Meghavanta itself appears to be roaring, proud-heartedly. [4-42-34]

यस्मिन् हरि हयः श्रीमान् महेन्द्रः पाकशासनः |
अभिषिक्तः सुरै राजा मेघो नाम स पर्वतः || ४-४२-३५
"On which mountain the distinguished Mahendra, whose horses are green and who is the controller of demon Paka, is anointed by gods as their king, such a mountain is this named Mt. Megha, or Mt. Meghavanta, which you have to scour. [4-42-35]

तम् अतिक्रम्य शैलेन्द्रम् महेन्द्र परिपालितम् |
षष्टिम् गिरि सहस्राणि कांचनानि गमिष्यथ || ४-४२-३६
तरुण आदित्य वर्णानि भ्राजमानानि सर्वतः |
जातरूपमयैः वृक्षैः शोभितानि सुपुष्पितैः || ४-४२-३७
"On going further from that best mountain ruled by Mahendra, namely Mt. Meghavanta, you shall go to the range of sixty thousand golden mountains. Those mountains are radiant all around with the tinge of young Sun, and with the resplendence of fully flowered trees which are wholly golden in hue. [4-42-36, 37]
(And this range may be Zagros Mountains in Iran?)

तेषाम् मध्ये स्थितो राजा मेरुः उत्तम पर्वतः |
आदित्येन प्रसन्नेन शैलो दत्त वरः पुरा || ४-४२-३८
"There is a unique and kingly mountain in the midst of that range of golden mountains, which is called Mt. Meru, or Saavrni Meru, to which mountain generous Sun has once given a boon. [4-42-38]
(So, Meru may be situated in Iran?)

तेन एवम् उक्तः शैलेन्द्रः सर्व एव त्वत् आश्रयाः |
मत् प्रसादात् भविष्यन्ति दिवा रात्रौ च कांचनाः || ४-४२-३९
त्वयि ये च अपि वत्स्यन्ति देव गन्धर्व दानवाः |
ते भविष्यन्ति भक्ताः च प्रभया कांचन प्रभाः || ४-४२-४०
"The Sun said to that unique Mt. Meru Saavarni in this way, 'by my beneficence whatever that is sheltered by you, say trees, climbers, rapids, boulders, all of them will transmute into golden hue, either by day or by night. Even those that reside on you, say gods, gandharva-s, or demons, they too shall thrive as my votaries and as far as their resplendence is concerned they will be glittering like gold, i.e., in the ochry golden hue of the eventide. [4-42-39, 40]

विश्वेदेवाः च वसवो मरुतः च दिव ओकसः |
आगत्य पश्चिमाम् संध्याम् मेरुम् उत्तम पर्वतम् || ४-४२-४१
आदित्यम् उपतिष्ठन्ति तैः च सूर्यो अभिपूजितः |
अदृश्यः सर्व भूतानाम् अस्तम् गच्छति पर्वतम् || ४-४२-४२
"On their coming to that unique mountain Mt. Meru Saavarni at vespers Vishvedeva-s, Vasava-s, Marut-s, and the other celestials will bide their time for the dusking Sun, and when they all have worshipped him, the Sun goes to the Mt. Astagiri, the Dusking Mountain, and vanishes for all beings for that day. [4-42-41, 42]

The above list may not mention others but it is construed to be inclusive of ekaadasha rudra-s, who are twenty-one in number, while the vishvedevaaH are thirteen, vasavaaH are eight, maruts are seven, aadityaa-s 'the other Suns in other galaxies...' are twelve.

योजनानाम् सहस्राणि दश तानि दिवाकरः |
मुहूर्त अर्धेन तम् शीघ्रम् अभियाति शिल उच्चयम् || ४-४२-४३
"The Sun courses across those ten thousand yojana-s from Mt. Meru Saavarni to Mt. Astaadri in one and half hours, and quickly reaches Mt. Astagiri, or Mt. Dusk. [4-42-43]
(This distance of 10,000 yojanas is the confusing to me. 10,000 yojanas seems too far. If one yojana is 8 miles, then 10,000 yojanas means 80,000 miles i.e. 1,28,000 Km. It is a very great distance. The distance of entire earth's circumference, according to google earth, is around 50,000 Km(approx). So, how can the distance of 1,28,000 Km be interpreted? Is it the distance travelled by light? Or is it the the rotation of earth in some angular measure? )

शृंगे तस्य महत् दिव्यम् भवनम् सूर्य संनिभम् |
प्रासाद गण संबाधम् विहितम् विश्वकर्मणा || ४-४२-४४
"On the pinnacle of Mt. Astagiri, or the Mt. Dusk, there is a supreme and heavenly manor-house compacted with multi-storied buildings, which in shine will be similar to Sun and which is arranged by Vishvakarma, the Divine Architect. [4-42-44]


शोभितम् तरुभिः चित्रैः नाना पक्षि समाकुलैः |
निकेतम् पाश हस्तस्य वरुणस्य महात्मनः || ४-४२-४५
"That villa is brightened by amazing trees, on which diverse birds will be twittering musically, belongs to the great-souled Varuna, the Rain-god, who wields a tether. [4-42-45]

अन्तरा मेरुम् अस्तम् च तालो दश शिरा महान् |
जातरूपमयः श्रीमान् भ्राजते चित्र वेदिकः || ४-४२-४६
"In between Mt. Meru and Mt. Astaadri there is a gigantic ten-leaved Date-palm-tree, which is completely golden and shines forth with a marvellous podium. [4-42-46]

This area must be the present day Arabian and the ancient Persian province, because the Date-palm tree is the highly respected tree at there or even throughout south East Asia. The three kinds of Dates trees are called as dry-grass-palm trees, as said in Amara Kosha.kharjuura, ketakii, talii, kharjuurii ca tR^iNa drumaa: amara kosha 'Date, Pandamus odara tissimus, Corypha Talliera and Wild Date are dry-grass-palms, and these grow in abundance around oases.

तेषु सर्वेषु दुर्गेषु सरस्सु च सरित्सु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गितव्यः ततः ततः || ४-४२-४७
"On all those mountains, lakesides and riversides Vaidehi shall be searched together with Ravana, far and wide. [4-42-47]

यत्र तिष्ठति धर्मज्ञः तपसा स्वेन भावितः |
मेरु सावर्णिर् इति एष ख्यातो वै ब्रह्मणा समः || ४-४२-४८
"This is where the virtue-knower, an enlightened one by his own asceticism, a selfsame personality to Brahma and one renowned as Sage Merusaavarni indeed resides. [4-42-48]

प्रष्टव्यो मेरुसावर्णिः महर्षिः सूर्य संनिभः |
प्रणम्य शिरसा भूमौ प्रवृत्तिम् मैथिलीम् प्रति || ४-४२-४९
"And that sage Merusaavarni who is Sun-similar in his shine can be asked, only on your prostration before him in veneration, about the tidings of Maithili, and her whereabouts. [4-42-49]

एतावत् जीव लोकस्य भास्करो रजनी क्षये |
कृत्वा वितिमिरम् सर्वम् अस्तम् गच्छति पर्वतम् || ४-४२-५०
"On effacing the utter darkness of all the mortal world up to here, the illuminator of mortal world and the decliner of night, namely the Sun, will go to the Mt. Astagiri, say Mt. Dusk. [4-42-50]

एतावत् वानरैः शक्यम् गन्तुम् वानर पुंगवाः |
अभास्करम् अमर्यादम् न जानीमः ततः परम् || ४-४२-५१
"It is possible for the vanara-s to go only up to there, oh, best vanara-s, and we have no knowledge of those sunless and boundless realms available far and beyond. [4-42-51]

Link

According to my 'research' so far, it seems to me that
Meru mountain is somewhere in the region of Iran. Maybe Zagros Mountains(Iran) are Meru.
Paschima-adhri is in America. Maybe Appalachian Mountains(North America) are Paschima-adhri.

---
There is something very interesting when Sugriva talks about southern side:

Sugriva starts the description from around Vindhya mountains.

तथा वन्गान् कलिन्गाम् च कौशिकान् च समंततः |
अन्वीक्ष्य दण्डक अरण्यम् स पर्वत नदी गुहम् || ४-४१-११
नदीम् गोदावरीम् चैव सर्वम् एव अनुपश्यत |
तथैव आन्ध्रान् च पुण्ड्रान् च चोलान् पाण्ड्यान् केरलान् || ४-४१-१२
"Like that Vanga, Kalinga territories shall be searched along with Kaushika territories available on their fringes, then cast about the Dandaka forest all over its mountains, rivers, and its caves, then River Godavari that courses through Dandaka forest, and then the provinces of Andhra, Pundra, Chola, Paandya, Kerala are to be searched thoroughly. [4-41-11, 12]

Link

Kaushika, it seems, means Kaashika. Vanga means Bengal. Kalinga means Odisha.

Sugriva also mentions Andhras, Keralas, Cholas and Pandyas. Cholas and Pandyas are mentioned. Cholas and Pandyas, obviously, are ruling in TN region. There is no mention of anyone called Dravida. Infact, there is no mention of anyone called Dravida in the entire Valmiki Ramayana. There is no mention of Dravida in Vedhas. Dravidas are only mentioned as one of the many rulers in MB. Dravidas are mentioned in MB along with Keralas, Cholas, Pandyas, Andhras, and so on. So, Dravida is not a race. It was a small kingdom in TN region. TN region was also ruled by Cholas and Pandyas. So, all of these are small kingdoms. The entire south is NOT Dravida. Infact, entire TN is also NOT Dravida. Dravida is not an ancient kingdom. It was there only during MB period. It was not there in Ramayana period not is it mentioned in Vedhas. The entire Aryan-Dravidian theory tries to use Ramayana and Vedha, but the greatest plothole in that theory is that there is NO mention of Dravidas in either Ramayana or Vedhas.

The identity of 'Andhra' is much more older... Andhras are mentioned in Ramayana and MB.

----
Should I send/email this info and related links to some Pravachankarthas? They can spread this info among the public...

[Prem]

Watch the whole series and try to make the head, legs and arms of this man's Cookooness . He mention Rothchild, Hess Etc.

Jay Weidner - The Aryans (The Vril) & Kali Yuga, part 2 of 6 .

[Nilesh Oak]

A reader wrote...
--------------
I quickly went through the critique of the book although I am greatly deficient in Marathi. But my general feeling is that Arundhati Observation is unique to you and its first observation belongs to you and is likely to invite many attempts to shake it. I am also of the view that this observations (Vashisstha on Prishtha of Arndhati) will be a milestone if generating a belief among Indians that Mahabharata is neither a myth nor Mythya and will generate archaeological / other (multidisciplinary) efforts to find the truth and expands dragnet to an area not being looked into previously. It will also remove the web of suspicion, shadows of doubt and undesired speculations created by motivated scholars.

I am of the view the greater the opposition, the greater the truth is likely to be. I will look forward to your forthcoming works on "Year of Mahabharata War" and "Dating of Ramayana". It will be a great privileged if I can in any way contribute in your great endeavour and will look forward to meeting with you in person whenever that can happen.

With warm regards

[RajeshA]

johneeG garu,

I think in order to understand what Sugriva was saying we would need a much more thorough view of astronomy and geography. Often the knowledge seems to be coded, perhaps that is the reason it is difficult to interpret the 10,000 yojanas. I can't even tell whether Mount Meru is an earthly body or a celestial body, or even some abstract concept. It would indeed be interesting to understand Shri Vimana's three steps.

However if Sugriva is indeed explaining geography, then yes, it would be a wonderful adventure to find out what he meant! Thanks for posting some portions here.

Dravida I know of in context of Gauda and Dravida, e.g. w.r.t. Brahmins.

[Prem]

We are all Hindus Now - Rev. Jennifer Ryu
[youtube]549mT-vU1Vk&feature=endscreen&NR=1[/youtube]

[Prem]

Are We All Hindus Now? .

[RajeshA]

Rod of Asclepius: Wikipedia

In Greek mythology, the Rod of Asclepius (sometimes also spelled Asklepios or Aesculapius), also known as the asklepian, is a serpent-entwined rod wielded by the Greek god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicine. The symbol has continued to be used in modern times, where it is associated with medicine and health care, yet frequently confused with the staff of the god Hermes, the caduceus. Theories have been proposed about the Greek origin of the symbol and its implications.

The Rod of Asclepius takes its name from the god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicinal arts in Greek mythology. Asclepius's attributes, the snake and the staff, sometimes depicted separately in antiquity, are combined in this symbol.[2]
The most famous temple of Asclepius was at Epidaurus in north-eastern Peloponnese. Another famous healing temple (or asclepieion) was located on the island of Kos, where Hippocrates, the legendary "father of medicine", may have begun his career. Other asclepieia were situated in Trikala, Gortys (in Arcadia), and Pergamum in Asia.

In honor of Asclepius, a particular type of non-venomous snake was often used in healing rituals, and these snakes — the Aesculapian Snakes — crawled around freely on the floor in dormitories where the sick and injured slept. These snakes were introduced at the founding of each new temple of Asclepius throughout the classical world. From about 300 BC onwards, the cult of Asclepius grew very popular and pilgrims flocked to his healing temples (Asclepieia) to be cured of their ills. Ritual purification would be followed by offerings or sacrifices to the god (according to means), and the supplicant would then spend the night in the holiest part of the sanctuary - the abaton (or adyton). Any dreams or visions would be reported to a priest who would prescribe the appropriate therapy by a process of interpretation. Some healing temples also used sacred dogs to lick the wounds of sick petitioners.

The original Hippocratic Oath began with the invocation "I swear by Apollo the Physician and by Asclepius and by Hygieia and Panacea and by all the gods ..."

The serpent and the staff appear to have been separate symbols that were combined at some point in the development of the Asclepian cult. The significance of the serpent has been interpreted in many ways; sometimes the shedding of skin and renewal is emphasized as symbolizing rejuvenation, while other assessments center on the serpent as a symbol that unites and expresses the dual nature of the work of the physician, who deals with life and death, sickness and health. The ambiguity of the serpent as a symbol, and the contradictions it is thought to represent, reflect the ambiguity of the use of drugs, which can help or harm, as reflected in the meaning of the term pharmakon, which meant "drug", "medicine" and "poison" in ancient Greek. Products deriving from the bodies of snakes were known to have medicinal properties in ancient times, and in ancient Greece, at least some were aware that snake venom that might be fatal if it entered the bloodstream could often be imbibed. Snake venom appears to have been 'prescribed' in some cases as a form of therapy.

The staff has also been variously interpreted. One view is that it, like the serpent, "conveyed notions of resurrection and healing", while another (not necessarily incompatible) is that the staff was a walking stick associated with itinerant physicians. Cornutus, a Greek philosopher probably active in the first century CE, in the Theologiae Graecae Compendium (Ch. 33) offers a view of the significance of both snake and staff:

Asclepius derived his name from healing soothingly and from deferring the withering that comes with death. For this reason, therefore, they give him a serpent as an attribute, indicating that those who avail themselves of medical science undergo a process similar to the serpent in that they, as it were, grow young again after illnesses and slough off old age; also because the serpent is a sign of attention, much of which is required in medical treatments. The staff also seems to be a symbol of some similar thing. For by means of this it is set before our minds that unless we are supported by such inventions as these, in so far as falling continually into sickness is concerned, stumbling along we would fall even sooner than necessary.

In any case the two symbols certainly merged in antiquity as representations of the snake coiled about the staff are common. It has been claimed that the snake wrapped around the staff was a species of rat snake, Elaphe longissima.

Does anyone see India mentioned here?

The symbol makes no sense in the Greek context. It has no etymology.

Here is Wikipedia entry on Kundalini

Kundalini is described as a sleeping, dormant potential force in the human organism. It is one of the components of an esoteric description of the "subtle body", which consists of nadis (energy channels), chakras (psychic centres), prana (subtle energy), and bindu (drops of essence).

Kundalini is described as being coiled up at the base of the spine. The description of the location can vary slightly, from the rectum to the navel. According to Sahaja Yoga, the kundalini resides in the triangular shaped sacrum bone in three and a half coils.

The kundalini has been described as "a residual power of pure desire" by Nirmala Srivastava.

The image given is that of a serpent coiled three and a half times around a smokey grey lingam. Each coil is said to represent one of the three gunas, with the half coil signifying transcendence.

Etymology

According to well-known teacher and translator Eknath Easwaran, kundalini means "the coiled power," a force which ordinarily rests at the base of the spine, described as being coiled there like a serpent. The concept can be found under different names. For example the 8th century Tantrasadbhava Tantra uses the term kundali ("she who is ring-shaped").

Asclepius is moreover the son of Apollo, a Sun deity. One of Apollo's epithet is Paean - the Healer. Surya is also known as a Healer of Diseases.

On Asclepeion

In ancient Greece and Rome, an asclepeion (or asklepieion, Greek: Ἀσκληπιεῖον - Ἀσκλαπιεῖον in Doric dialect, Latin aesculapīum) was a healing temple, sacred to the god Asclepius.

Asclepius may first have been worshipped as a hero in Trikka, Thessaly, which ancient mythographers generally regarded as the place of his birth, but to date archaeological excavations have yet to uncover his sanctuary there. Epidauros, on the other hand, was the first place to worship Asclepius as a god, beginning sometime in the 400s BC. The asclepieion at Epidaurus is both extensive and well preserved. There is an asclepieion located on the south slopes of the Acropolis of Athens which dates to around 420 BC.

Starting around 350 BC, the cult of Asclepius became increasingly popular. Pilgrims flocked to asclepieia to be healed. They slept overnight ("incubation") and reported their dreams to a priest the following day. He prescribed a cure, often a visit to the baths or a gymnasium. Since snakes were sacred to Asclepius, they were often used in healing rituals. Non-venomous snakes were left to crawl on the floor in dormitories where the sick and injured slept.

Asclepeia provided carefully controlled spaces conducive to healing and fulfilled several of the requirements of institutions created for healing. In the Asclepieion of Epidaurus, three large marble boards dated to 350 BC preserve the names, case histories, complaints, and cures of about 70 patients who came to the temple with a problem and shed it there.

The Greek symbol of Healing is the same as the portrayal of Kundalini! This was popular in Greece at the latest by 420 BCE, i.e. even before Alexander came to India 327/326 BCE.

So one can be sure that the Greeks received their knowledge of Medicine from India, and that too much before Alexander made his trip, which is the popular root for AIT-Nazis and Macaulayites to claim that all science in India comes from Greeks!

When the Prime Greek God of Healing Asclepius goes around brandishing the Kundalini sign, then it really means that the whole of Greek Medicine is based on Indian knowledge.

Now the legend says that Asclepius studied Medicine from the Centaur Chiron, which means there must be some connection between the Centaur Chiron and India. So speculating here, it could refer to the constellation Centaurus which may have represented India.

[RajeshA]

Published in 2002
By Ivan M. Granger
Medusa

Medusa says —

I was wisdom
once,
black as night.

Now they call me:
monster,
gorgon,
hideous-faced.

So I hide
behind this hissing curtain
of hair.

Lost
little ones,
breathe easy;
you are free
to not see.

But
what is a lonely
old lady to do?

I still wait
for some daughter,
some son,
so wounded by the world,
to seize these snakes
and part my locks wide.

I still wait
for some bold, tired
wild child of mine,
determined to die
seeing what's reflected
in my unblinking eye.

I read a lot of Greek mythology in my childhood. I loved the fantastical adventures, the heroes, the monsters, the convoluted relationships of the gods. I was fascinated that so many common words and phrases have their origins in the names and stories of Greek myths. It connected me with my Greek ancestry, through my father's side of the family.

And I also had the vague, semi-formed idea that there was something deeper being said in these myth stories.

I discovered something a few years back that struck me: Medusa, the quintessential monster of Greek mythology, was originally a much loved Goddess. Her name comes from the Greek word "metis" (related to the Sanskrit "medha") meaning "wisdom." Her worship is thought to have originated in Northern Africa and been imported into early Greek culture. She was black-skinned, wore wild, matted hair (with, of course, snakes), stood naked, wide-eyed, and embodied the mystery of woman, the wisdom of the night, the truths too profound or terrible to face in the daylight.

Medusa is, in effect, a Mediterranean version of the Indian Goddess Kali.

Medusa was eventually subsumed into the safer, patriarchal worship of Athena, who carries Medusa's head upon her shield.

This discovery inspired me to look at the figure of Medusa more deeply, more reverently. What is the wisdom that terrifies? Why the snakes? Why the petrifying open-eyed stare? And how does such a bringer of terrible wisdom feel about being rejected by her children as a "monster"?

So I hide
Behind this hissing curtain
Of hair.

One way to understand the snakes about Medusa's head is as the awakened Kundalini energy, having risen from the base of the spine to the skull -- something well-understood in the Mediterranean mystery schools of the ancient world. This vital, snake-like energy is the Goddess energy. Medusa, the Goddess, is the Snake Mother.

Yet, She has formed of this living energy a curtain, a veil that hides Her Face from a world not ready to bear witness to Her. This curtain is the veil of illusion that creates an artificial sense of separation between the world and the Divine.

And the curtain does indeed hiss. When you are quiet and your thoughts settle, you begin to hear a soft sound seeming to issue from the base of your skull. Initially, it sounds like a creaking or crackling noise, a white noise, a sort of a hissing. The deeper you go into silence, the more the sound resolves itself. Eventually, you recognize it permeating your whole body and all things.

You must pass through this hissing curtain in order to meet the deep truth waiting for you on the other side.

I still wait
For some bold, tired
Wild child of mine,
Determined to die
Seeing what's reflected
In my unblinking eye.

Medusa's eye does not blink. This is partly what is so terrifying about her gaze. She stares boldly out and sees Reality as it is. She sees it plainly, fearlessly, and without interruption. There is no pause for interpretation or "filtering." Medusa's truth is raw. She is the Divine Mother who sees all of Her Creation in every living instant.

Looking in Medusa's eye, what is it that you see reflected? Yourself, of course. And this truly is shattering, for you see the truth of yourself. You see the unreality of your little self, your social self, your ego self. That little self is a phantom, a mental creation only.

Medusa, in her shattering wisdom, does not protect you from this realization. Her love for you will not allow you to struggle on with such a false notion holding you back from your true nature.

Seeing this truth, you die. The little self dies.

But, in dying to the little self, your true nature suddenly shines forth. The real Self, which is one with the Divine, emerges. Every aspect of yourself that felt broken and that you labored so long to heal, is suddenly made whole; in fact, you realize nothing was ever broken. That sense of incompleteness was the result of denying the vastness you truly are while clinging to the illusion of the little self.

This is Medusa's gift to Her children. This is Her terrible wisdom. It is the truth that blesses you through death, and then gives you greater life than you had previously imagined possible.

About Gorgons

Gorgons were a popular image in Greek mythology, appearing in the earliest of written records of Ancient Greek religious beliefs such as those of Homer, which may date to as early as 1194–1184 BC. Because of their legendary and powerful gaze that could turn one to stone, images of the Gorgons were put upon objects and buildings for protection. An image of a Gorgon holds the primary location at the pediment of the temple at Corfu, which is the oldest stone pediment in Greece, and is dated to c. 600 BC.

The concept of the Gorgon is at least as old in classical Greek mythology as Perseus and Zeus.The name is Greek, being derived from "gorgos" and translating as terrible or dreadful. Gorgoneia (figures depicting a Gorgon head, see below) first appear in Greek art at the turn of the eighth century BC. One of the earliest representations is on an electrum stater discovered during excavations at Parium. Other early eighth-century examples were found at Tiryns. Going even further back into history, there is a similar image from the Knossos palace, datable to the fifteenth century BC. Marija Gimbutas even argues that "the Gorgon extends back to at least 6000 BC, as a ceramic mask from the Sesklo culture...". In her book, Language of the Goddess, she also identifies the prototype of the Gorgoneion in Neolithic art motifs, especially in anthropomorphic vases and terracotta masks inlaid with gold.

I liked Ivan's speculation on what could be the meaning of the snakes! It could represent a person whose Kundalini is fully awakened, and thus sprouts from the head!

Or it could mean the African woman with the dreadlocks! Who knows!

[ramana]

RajeshA,

Rosslyn Chapel Scotland, Pillar Image

[RajeshA]

ramana garu,

thanks. Perhaps the serpent around the staff is being projected here, but it could be that it's being abstracted simply to a decorative pattern. The serpent is not really a very favored animal in the Bible.

[Nilesh Oak]

BRF Folks,

Not sure if I mentioned it....

My book (When did the Mahabharata War Happen? The Mystery of Arundhati) was NOMINATED for Imre Lakatos Award.

No, it did not win the coveted prize!

I became aware of nomination (a while ago) when someone from London School of Economics contacted me requesting two copies of the book.

Here is the link on Imre Lakatos Award

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakatos_Award

(you will notice that almost all (may be without exception) awards are given to those in academia.

Time for drumroll nevertheless.....

[RajeshA]

Site: Imre Lakatos Award

Nilesh Oak ji,

congratulations!

[Prem]

Nilesh ji

Congratulations !! Great News. It was nice meeting you and get the book singed.

[ramana]

Great job, Nilesh!

[Virendra]

The video has been posted beofre, but has anyone deliberated on Premendra Priyadarshi's hypothesis.
Out-of-India origin of modern humans i.e. before the Out-Of-Africa !!
Watch it, with special emphasis when he talks about the very ancient L1, L2, L3 etc lineages.


Regards,
Virendra

[Klaus]

Nilesh Oak ji, congratulations on the award nomination!

[Murugan]

Here is one more barking AIT

बुक्कति { बुक्क् } bukkati { bukk } = bark

[RajeshA]

The Yuga Cycle (Cont.)

The Great Year



Walter Cruttenden also wrote the book "The Lost Star".

This is research where Indians should be taking the initiative. At the moment the researchers are making India share the limelight with the Greeks as junior partners.

Nilesh Oak ji,

There is a case out there that the rate of precession of the equinoxes is not a constant. At the moment it is increasing. That could have some effect on the planetary software and thus the dates. Do check out the video.

[Virendra]

A pdf talking about the visiblity of Agastya (Canopus). There are references to Mahabharata, Tamil Sangam etc and use of astronomical as well as literary evidence.
http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/dec252005/2174.pdf

[Nilesh Oak]

The Yuga Cycle (Cont.)

The Great Year
Walter Cruttenden also wrote the book "The Lost Star".

This is research where Indians should be taking the initiative. At the moment the researchers are making India share the limelight with the Greeks as junior partners.

Nilesh Oak ji,

There is a case out there that the rate of precession of the equinoxes is not a constant. At the moment it is increasing. That could have some effect on the planetary software and thus the dates. Do check out the video.

Rate of precession is indeed variable. And depending on factors affecting it, it produces varying cycles of Precession (add to it Nutation and other stuff). and thus 26000 or 24000 years are valid estimates. Not sure how astronomy software (or to what extent it takes it into account.

Thus Indian estimate of 54 arc-sec/year may not be an approximation, but rather accurate measurement (against today's 50.3 arc-sec/year), depending on when the measurement took place. In addition, it is not clear if it is continuously increasing or if it has its own oscillation. Even though earth may be slowing down, nutation and other factors can still produced cycle of varying precession.

[Nilesh Oak]

A pdf talking about the visiblity of Agastya (Canopus). There are references to Mahabharata, Tamil Sangam etc and use of astronomical as well as literary evidence.
http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/dec252005/2174.pdf

Virendra ji,

My considered opinion tells me that current estimates (including one by Abhyankar....above PDF) for Agastya (assuming we accept the logic behind Agastya crossing Vindhya and the bright star noted to the south named after him, the logic used by many including Abhyankar....) is off by at least ~15,000 years.

I plan on researching Agastya (and Sangam literature.. whatever form it exists today.. is of critical importance) after my Ramayana project. The reason Ramayana project is critical.. is because that by itself will FALSIFY all 3000 BCE-7000 BCE estimates for Agastya crossing the Vindhyas for the first time.

[RajeshA]

Nilesh Oak ji,

after reading and watching, I have come to think that there is a good case for Surya to be in a binary star orbit. One argument they make is that if the precession were to be explained by the Earth's wobbling, then that would have an effect on the seasons, which it doesn't.

According to the Yuga Cycle Theory and the Binary Star Theory, as the stars come closer the precession rate would accelerate, and as they move away from each other, the precession rate would slow down. At the moment the precession rate is increasing.

Whenever the 54 arc-sec/year was measured it must have been during the decreasing phase, as it is more than the precession rate today.

[Klaus]

^^^ The binary star theory has been discussed in other threads. However, to put it in slightly greater detail, the Sun and its brown dwarf binary orbit around a centre of mass, which is a point in space between the two stars. As the brown dwarf approaches perihelion it is supposed to gravitationally disrupt icy space-rocks in distant orbits beyond the planet Neptune. These then are responsible for generating long period comets with orbits of greater than 200 years.

However, the expansion into the theory roughly stops here as there has been no direct sighting of this dim red/brown dwarf star. Its effect on precession of equinoxes can only be studied once its exact mass, size, spectral analysis, specific orbit and composition is studied.

Also the fact that this dim red/brown dwarf star could be located at a distance of 3-5 light years from earth also does not help matters much.

[RajeshA]

Klaus ji,

AFAIK, there was the theory that Sirius system is Sun's dance partner, as it does not do precession, like the rest of the stars.