Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[tsarkar]

Air Force Briefing: from FAS

Is this briefing a joke? Hatf 9 ICBM? 300 mm diameter with 60 km range outranged by IA Smerch with same 300 mm diameter but 70 km range. This sinks the credibility of the entire document.

[tsarkar]

It is a relatively economical missile that can be manufactured by the thousands. Imagine what a barrage of a couple of thousand missiles, flying at Mach 6, with shaped trajectories and pin-point accuracy, can do to an enemy in a ground war.

Fundamental error here. Prahaar is an expensive missile. Its primary design is to shoot down SRBMs & IRBMs. While the guidance systems & datalinks can be removed from the SRBM role, it still has pretty expensive & exotic control systems & materials that drive up the price. The warhead isn't large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AAD_Integration_2.JPG

A Tejas or MiG-27 sortie can deliver more firepower at 150 km cheaper than Prahaar.

Brahmos adequately covers the 300 km range, and being an air breathing & air controlled missile, is much more manoeuverable missile than Prahaar.

A cheaper solution would be a Pinaka or Smerch derivative for the 150 km range.

[Pranav]

It is a relatively economical missile that can be manufactured by the thousands. Imagine what a barrage of a couple of thousand missiles, flying at Mach 6, with shaped trajectories and pin-point accuracy, can do to an enemy in a ground war.

Fundamental error here. Prahaar is an expensive missile. Its primary design is to shoot down SRBMs & IRBMs. While the guidance systems & datalinks can be removed from the SRBM role, it still has pretty expensive & exotic control systems & materials that drive up the price. The warhead isn't large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AAD_Integration_2.JPG

A Tejas or MiG-27 sortie can deliver more firepower at 150 km cheaper than Prahaar.

Brahmos adequately covers the 300 km range, and being an air breathing & air controlled missile, is much more manoeuverable missile than Prahaar.

A cheaper solution would be a Pinaka or Smerch derivative for the 150 km range.

Prahaar has a decent payload of 200 kg (as opposed to 300 kg for Brahmos). And it is claimed to be "cost-effective". See http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=73407

[Austin]

How Cheap and Expensive a system is can be quite relative .... Pinaka and Smerch might be cheap relative to BM-21 Grad but expensive compared to Prahar , Similarly Prahaar may be expesive compared to two but cheaper compared to Brahmos ....Depends on how much mullah one has to buy mix and expensive system to do the job.

[Sagar G]

The warhead isn't large.

It has a 200 kg. warhead.

A Tejas or MiG-27 sortie can deliver more firepower at 150 km cheaper than Prahaar.

In a heavily defended airspace as well ???

A cheaper solution would be a Pinaka or Smerch derivative for the 150 km range.

Well Smerch is not indigenous and Pinaka 2 will be 100 Km+ and the range of Prahaar is not limited to 150 Km it will go up

“We will be proving the missile for different ranges from short to medium ranges,” said Dr. Saraswat, who is also DRDO Director-General and Secretary, Defence R and D. “Today, we covered 150 km. After a couple of more flights, we will be ready for production.”

[Pranav]

DRDO claims that the user 'has shown a lot of interest' taking into account its cost-effectiveness and the sheer numbers by which it can be fielded.

“The futuristic tactical operations will increasingly require long-range stand-off weapons with high accuracy and short reaction time to neutralize time critical targets. Prahaar can be be adapted to existing maritime platform as well as to an aircraft increasing its utility. It can neutralize the identified targets, provide effective counter force system and serve as an affordable solution to the future battlefield requirements,” sources said.

The missile is capable of carrying multiple warheads, has very fast reaction capability from mission command to execute the launch. “With all weather, day and night launch capability, Prahaar's range, if launched from an aircraft (read as Sukhoi), can be extended up to 350 km. This is quite feasible as the missile has less weight, diameter and radar cross section. As of now, we are waiting for a Letter of Intent (LoI) from the Army,” sources said.

Once the Army gives the LoI, the missile will have to undergo 10-12 trials to fine tune its effectiveness with different warheads. “The missiles are controlled and guided from lift off to impact and maneuver continuously so that the prediction of both launch point and impact point are difficult. Multiple launchers can be linked together to form a missile battery to deliver simultaneous multi-axis saturation attack on the target,” sources said.

Prahaar is capable of carrying a variety of warheads like pre-fragmented, incendiary sub-munitions, runway-denial sub-munitions, smart munitions and thermobaric (a fuel-air bomb, which produces a blast wave for longer period) warheads. Since the missile uses solid propulsion systems, it can be put on a ready-to-launch-mode quickly. It's a zero maintenance, road-mobile system developed by young AD scientists in the average age-group of 35 years.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/pr ... g.html?m=0

[Singha]

we need a light solid fuel medium range strike missile to supplement the micro-brahmos that was supposedly being developed as not all brahmos IP is in our hand and brahmos will likely be more expensive due to ramjet exotic materials and engg. this will also replace and supplement the limited nums of KH31 and KH59 we purchased. prahaar could form the basis of that. think of it as a desi SLAM-ER.
nirbhay will be a big expensive missile and not cost effective for medium range targets.

[ramana]

tsarkar, I think you misperceive the Prahaar and the PAD/AAD combination. Prahaar is a battlefield TBM like ATACM. PAD/AAD are to shoot down SRBM/IRBMs.

Prahaar is to supplant the Prithvi which is cumbersome and has been known to trigger threshold worries due to its accuracy(<10m) and large payload(1tonne to 750kg).

[ramana]

One thing we know from the repeated tests of Agni series is the fuzing system is reliable and has been proven in a range of missiles from AI to AV. The video of the AI shows it has an air burst mode. we also know the primary is also very reliable. S-1 was an old warhead first made ~10 years before the 1998 tests. We know from SS speech there is a ten year recert program for the warheads.

[SaiK]

so, perhaps a question on the warheads..(may be OT), I think, we did discuss the capability on nut-bums sometime back. but do we have any data on the blast required to say just irradiate a big paki city? can a small air blast is enough? what would be the blast profile on these type of petals?

[tsarkar]

Ramana, I am clear in the distinction between Prahaar & AAD. The airframe is the same.

Only the radar seeker has been removed and replaced with a larger warhead. However, the airframe remains the same.

The airframe is optimized for interception. As the earlier image shows, it uses jet vane controls & both the wings & fins are fixed. So the missile essentially skids to turn. While its perfect for an interceptor missile, for a tactical ballistic missile, movable fins like those at the rear of Brahmos enables better turning capabilities http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... s_imds.jpg

Also, a higher warhead is required for ground attack to ensure even a near miss is compensated by a larger blast radius.

Rather than a hasty conversion, why not develop a 150 km SRBM missile from scratch optimized for that role? We've certainly have the know-how for that.

[PratikDas]

I would've thought an interceptor missile with thrust vectoring at the exhaust would have better turning capabilities by far! Hence it's abilities to intercept another missile which should be expected to have an intercept-avoidance trajectory.

Targets of ballistic missiles aren't mobile. So which one would need better turning capabilities?

[SaiK]

btw, sorry to respond late on dinesh's diagrams. I disagree for a BR projection here the swim lanes are politically motivated in the message. request make it as a link if needed/for discussion purposes. it as seen as enemy profile for US+UK combined strategies.

[NRao]

I am clear in the distinction between Prahaar & AAD. The airframe is the same.

Prithvi -> PAD (not AAD). Right?

And, seems to me that Prahaar -> PDV, and that the Prahaar will replace the Prithvi and PDV will replace the PAD.

And, AAD is expected to morph into the "Ashwin", an extended version of the AAD.

?????

[SSridhar]

X-post
BrahMos ready to be fitted on future submarines, Sivathanu Pillai - The Hindu

Underwater trial of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile heralds its readiness to fit in with new generation P 75(I) submarines, said A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited.

[Singha]

I am not seeing anything in our hand right now to replace the limited nos of popeye (on m2k), kh31 and kh59 (on su30) . we own none of the IP on these and cannot modify them for derivatives. the kh59 in addition has a fixed exposed engine pod (higher rcs) and needs a special datalink pod for the launch ac to command it. clunky and old school.

we need a light universal medium range land attack missile of the SLAM and SLAM-ER mould weighing around 250kg so that even the Tejas and anything bigger can carry it. should have glonass, ins and iir guidance preferably to permit using in both autonomous or in special target recognition mode to permit programming the IIR seeker to id and go after SAMs , vehicles or radar type targets. a family of sensor fused submunitions need to be worked out.

we have a long ways to go both in the pure play sudarshan , the gliding wing kits range extention and the powered subsonic SLAM types. right now its a vacant slots or zoo type picture. Right now specific subsets of ac can use specific subsets of munitions. Jags cannog field the kh series and sukhoi cannot fire the derby...it goes on. It just complicates the situation for moving assets around and makes us predictable

[tsarkar]

@Pratik - its not about effectiveness but efficiency. Fins offer more efficient manoeuverability than TVC. That is why Python 5 has the most number of fins ever seen in a missile. TVC enables missiles to dispense drag associated with fins. Since AAD needs to accelerate rapidly to touch & sustain peak speed, TVC based controls made better sense than fin based.

For the 150 km range, a dedicated small missile can be easily built, though I believe a guidance corrected rocket would be more appropriate.

Also, in the 150 km range, most targets, including command centers would be mobile & truck mounted.

I'm quite sure BrahMos will see service on Arihant.

[arnabh]

Indian guided bombs for fighters

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 69705.aspx

[John]

X-post
BrahMos ready to be fitted on future submarines, Sivathanu Pillai - The Hindu

Underwater trial of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile heralds its readiness to fit in with new generation P 75(I) submarines, said A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited.

As for sub launched Brahmos unless we come with a Soryu sized 4000 Ton Diesel submarine i don't see it ever being fitted into a smaller platform like Scorpene, the Russian 8 VLS Amur is a pipe dream.

[arijitkm]

India developing guided bombs for fighter jets

By the end of next year, Indian fighter planes could be equipped with indigenously-developed ‘glide bombs’, which will be guided to their targets for precision attacks.

The first-of-its-kind bomb in the country, being developed by the DRDO, will boost India’s strike capabilities as targets can be hit even beyond the range of a fighter aircraft.

The DRDO is working on developing glide capabilities on the existing bombs of various payloads including 100 kgs, 250 kgs and 500 kgs.

“We are developing glide bombs which can be directed towards their intended targets using guidance mechanisms after being dropped from aircraft of the IAF,” outgoing DRDO chief V K Saraswat said.

“Such a capability will allow the IAF pilots to drop the bombs at their intended targets from stand-off distances as the glide capabilities will help in enhancing the range of the bombs,” he said.

The DRDO has already carried out two trials of such bombs successfully and plans to hold more trials this year for proving the capabilities of the ammunition.

“By the end of the next year, we want to complete all the development trials of the glide bombs before offering it to the IAF,” he said.

The outgoing DRDO chief said the organisation is also in the process of developing an anti-radiation missile, which will multiply the strike capabilities of the armed forces by destroying the enemy’s advance warning system.

Such missiles can be mounted on Sukhoi fighter planes Su-30 MKI.

These missile can detect a radar by tracking its electro-magnetic radiation and pulses generated and these would be independent of the radar wavelength and be able to destroy it.

Such missiles, currently in use of some major powers like the US, can detect and attack a radar antenna or transmitter with minimal aircrew input.

The proportional guidance system that homes in on enemy radar emissions has a fixed antenna and seeker head in the missile’s nose.

The ARMs are used by the US Air Force and they move at the speed of over Mach 2, propelled by a smokeless and solid-propellant rocket motor.

The US Air Force introduced High Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM) on the F-4G Wild Weasel and later on specialised F-16s equipped with the HARM Targeting System (HTS).
........

[abhik]

^^^
Excellent news, though jingos would be happier if some photos were also released.

[ramana]

tsarkar, I got what you are saying now. Yes Prahaar frame or structure is based on AAD. If it is made in quantity then the AAD will also benefit from scale of production. So there is synergy.

I like the family of glide bombs which appears to be different from Sudarshan kit and ARM projects.

During IGMP, the Trishul was to have an ARM role ~135km range.

[vic]

My guess on various proposed developments :-

Brahmos air launched 2.5 tons

Mini Brahmos air launched 1.5 tons

LRCM Ramjet 1 ton in competition with Mini Brahmos

ARM Ramjet equivalent to KH-31 around 600kg

Glide bombs guided by IRNSS

Laser guided bombs

Helina

Turbofan engine powered missile in category of Tomhawk

Turbofan engine powered missile in category of Harpoon

[Indranil]

DRDO's naming can be seriously confusing

There was:
1. NG-LGB which is supposed to be of 50 km range. But that will be started only after the rolling of Sudarshan would be arrested (which has definitely not been done yet). This I guess is going to compliment the Spice 2000 kits on the Mirage 2000s.
2. Then Dr. Saraswat spoke of a "Air-launched long range stand-off precision guided air to ground weapon system called the Smart anti-airfield system (SAW)" at AI'13. It was described as a "design and development program which will come very quickly". (Watch from 5:45 onwards).


And now:
There is a glide bomb of stand-off range which has already been tested twice!

So, how many programs are going on?

[vic]

I think these 3 things are:-

NG-LGB could be Sudershan Kit with glide kit of folding wings (+ rocket booster?)

Anti airfield weapon could be specialized IRNSS based stealth shaped glide bomb dispensing sub munitions, something like Israel MSOV

And last could be long range IRNSS guided wing kit fitted to dumb bombs

[Karan M]

There was:
1. NG-LGB which is supposed to be of 50 km range. But that will be started only after the rolling of Sudarshan would be arrested (which has definitely not been done yet).

Yes, NG LGB is being done by ADE. So NG would logically come out after current LGB.

[UQOTE]And now:
There is a glide bomb of stand-off range which has already been tested twice![/QUOTE]

Depends on who is helming this. It could be a DRDL led program, so might be proceeding in parallel to ADEs work on the LGB.

So, how many programs are going on?

There is a substantial push towards creating a set of tactical missiles/PGMs for the AF. This was a priority noted publicly in 2009.

[Indranil]

NG-LGB could be Sudershan Kit with glide kit of folding wings (+ rocket booster?)

For 50 kms, rockets are not required. Also the range cannot be much more than 50 kms as the designation would not be possible using the same aircraft.

[vasu raya]

Wonder why a crucial system such as INS was not made redundant that a manufacturing defect aborted Nirbhay's first test flight, and it is probably being built into a nuke capable vehicle, yikes!

[ramana]

vasu raya or any one, Please find the report about the mfg defect in RLG that aborted the Nirbhay test.

[Sagar G]

^^^ Agni-V to be modified to attack multiple targets

Another crucial DRDO missile test this year would be a “repeat launch” of ‘Nirbhay’. During the maiden trial of the subsonic cruise missile, the flight had to be terminated midway after it strayed from its trajectory. Dr. Saraswat attributed the problem to a manufacturing defect in the navigation sensor.

[ramana]

Thanks. So a lot or batch problem for other units of same type worked?
How did it pass acceptance tests?
Being used on the first flight of a cruise missile one would expect more attention go detail. Still an awesome job of failure diagnosis and root cause.

[vic]

I think these 3 things are:-

NG-LGB could be Sudershan Kit with glide kit of folding wings (+ rocket booster?)

Anti airfield weapon could be specialized IRNSS based stealth shaped glide bomb dispensing sub munitions, something like Israel MSOV

And last could be long range IRNSS guided wing kit fitted to dumb bombs

Or it can be folding pop out wings for range extension fitted to :-

1. LGB to convert it into NG-LGB

2. Cluster and or penetration bombs to convert it into runway denial bomb-SAW (guidance??)

3. IRNSS guided general bombs-PGMs

[vasu raya]

Thanks Sagar G for posting the news article that Ramana requested.

------------

Delhi to get missile defence ring next year

There is a need for air-launched AAD or even PDV aboard HALE UAVs or any aircraft to maintain CAP aganist TBMs and avoiding permanent deployment at a location given the density of important locations across India

Then to keep US from informing TSP about Indian positions particularly movement of Prithvi TELs in an attempt to preempt the Indian surprise element, Prahaars launched from aircraft would be a good choice.

[arijitkm]

India among 3 countries to destroy chemical weapons

One of the world's leading thinktank on weapons and global arms race says that over 15,000 tonnes of chemical weapons are lying stockpiled across the globe.

As of 31 October 2012, Iraq, Libya, Russia and the USA are yet to complete destruction of their chemical weapon stock piles.

Swedish arms watchdog Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) has warned that around 54,258 tonnes (78%) of the most lethal chemical weapons had been destroyed. Around 13 states had declared 70 former chemical production facilities. Around 43 of these facilities had been destroyed and 21 converted to peaceful purposes.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) however has confirmed that India is among the seven states that have declared chemical weapon stockpiles. This includes Albania, India, Iraq, South Korea, Libya, Russia and the United States.

Albania, India and South Korea infact are the only three countries which have destroyed their stockpiles, according to the OPCW.

The deadline for the final destruction of chemical weapons under the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) passed on 29 April 2012.

As of December 31, 188 states had ratified or acceded to the convention.

According to SIPRI, as of November 2012 Libya had destroyed 13.5 tonnes (51% of its declared 26 tonnes) of category 1 sulphur mustard chemical weapons.

As of the same date, it had destroyed 555.7 tonnes (40%) of its category 2 chemical weapons.

The current schedule for Libya is to complete the destruction of category 1 chemical weapons by 31 December 2013, and category 2 chemical weapons by 31 December 2016.

Libya will employ a static detonation chamber technology for destruction of the previously undeclared chemical munitions and will hydrolyse the sulphur mustard.

Canada announced that it would provide 6 million Canadian dollars ($5.9 million) to support Libya's programme — the largest voluntary offer by a party to the convention since its entry into force in 1997.

As of November 2012 Russia had destroyed 27653 tonnes (61%) of its declared category 1 chemical weapons and all of its category 2 and 3 chemical weapons. It plans to complete destruction of its stockpile by December 2015.

In 2012 four chemical weapon destruction facilities were operating at Leonidovka, Maradykovsky, Pochep and Shchuchye (operations have been completed at Gorny and Kambarka).

Till November 2012, USA had destroyed 24924 tonnes (90%) of its declared category 1 chemical weapons.

[dinesha]

Agni-V trial next month
http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... 619130.ece

[arijitkm]

Dr VG Sekaran, father of the Agni-5 is DRDO's new missile chief

[Indranil]

How many Cruise missile projects does India have?

Hypersonic:
1. Air Launched Article (from K-family): yet to be revealed except for Sandeep Unnithan's article uncovering the K-family.
2. Brahmos-2

Supersonic:
3. Brahmos (For Su-30s)
4. Mini-Brahmos (For Rafale)
6. Long Range Cruise Missile

Subsonic:
7. Nirbhay
8. Mini-Nirbhay (There has been no reports on this. Only speculations).

[dinesha]

Agni-V warming up for a canister-style trial launch
https://newindianexpress.com/nation/Agn ... 620397.ece
By Anantha Krishnan M - BANGALORE 05th June 2013 08:33 AM

India’s long-range ballistic missile Agni-V is warming up for a
canister-style development trial launch in the next one month. The
Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO)
newly-appointed Chief Controller R&D (Missiles & Strategic
Systems) Dr V G Sekaran confirmed to Express on Tuesday that all
preparations for the second trial of the 5,000-km-puls missile are
in place.
“We are ready, but need to get some clearances as these are all
linked to the policies of government. The early induction of Agni-V
tops my list of priorities. The Agni-V user deliverables should
happen next year,” Sekaran said. The missile had its maiden
launch in April 2012.
He said the Agni-IV (4,000 km strike range) will cross the last mile
with another launch before it enters the production mode. “Our
emphasis will be to equip the user at the earliest and iron out all
issues at lightning speed. On the tactical side, we have the Akash
missile systems, LR-SAM (Long Range-Surface to Air Missile) and
Nag coming up in a big way. Simultaneously, the futuristic
systems will all get converted into projects,” the top missile
scientist said.
When asked whether these futuristic systems will get embedded
on to a possible Agni-VI, Sekaran refused to give details and said:
“We are studying various missile technologies such as MIRV
(Multiple independently-targeted re-entry vehicles) and MaRV
(Manoeuvring re-entry vehicles (MaRV). As and when the nation
wants us to deliver, we will be ready with these technologies. It
will be not right to speak on a missile programme without any
sanction. But, we are working on enhanced systems for future
missiles.”
Giving an update on various ongoing missile projects, Sekaran
said that the Astra has completely undergone a design change
following issues it had in the past. “We have had good flights, post
new-design and also conducted some captive trials. It is in a good
shape now and it should gear up for firing from an aircraft soon.
The project is definitely out of woods,” he said.
The Nag missile, which had issues with its Infra Red (IR) seeker,
too is gearing up for crucial user trials, while the missile’s carrier
(NAMICA) will take some more time before cleared for trials.

[nits]

[dinesha]

^^^^ That's the conceptual rendition by NDTV..