Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2013 16:32

Nice Solo Display by Rafale

"Solo display Rafale" by Lionel Charlet Films.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 May 2013 11:42

MRCA negotiations are back on track now

SP's Aviation link

May 06, 2013: After weeks of being stalled, commercial negotiations for the MMRCA are back on track and in full flow, top sources confirm. Since March, negotiations had been held up on multiple counts, including a tussle over contractual modalities, a split contract between Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for flyaway and license-built aircraft, transfer of technology and offsets. Sources in Dassault inform that mutual discussions have yielded a way forward.
...

As things stand, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is hoping to wrap up negotiations and begin work on a draft agreement by August-September, about three months behind schedule as per the IAF's expectations.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 12 May 2013 18:28

MMRCA: A do or die contract for Dassault's military business.

Dassault Aviation, the French maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the Indian ministry of defence for the $12 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is facing rough weather at home.

In the latest strategic defence review carried out under the insistence of the French government, last month, France has capped the purchase of Rafale fighter jets to 225. Originally, the Rafale programme envisaged production of 320 aircraft for the French government but this was cut to 286 later and now to 225. Till date, only 180 of them have been ordered; all of them by France. The company is yet to find an export customer for its front-line fighter jet.

As a result, the cost of Rafale to France has climbed steadily. The French Senate assessment of the 2013 national defence budget pegs the total cost of the Rafale programme, including development expenses, to the French exchequer at €44.2 billion. Dividing the total programme cost with number of aircraft to be built i.e. 225 gives a per aircraft cost of €196.4 million or approx. Rs. 1,390 crore at today’s exchange rate.

A cut to Rafale numbers for France poses a challenge to Dassault’s military business which is mainly dependent on Rafale sales.

Given the situation, bagging MMRCA, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. However, contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged on for over a year.

As reported by FE earlier, cost has been an issue since the start besides the company’s reluctance to transfer sophisticated technology to India and meet offsets requirements. In the last few months, questions have been raised by Dassault regarding the role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in the MMRCA. Moreover, the French company is unwilling to be held liable for the quality, timely and on-cost delivery of the 108 aircraft to be license produced at HAL. This is in breach of tender conditions and has emerged as a major threat to speedy contract conclusion.

Sources FE spoke to said: “Given the slow pace of negotiations it looks increasingly likely that MMRCA will spill over to the next government.” But, Dassault CEO Eric Trappier is optimistic. Reportedly, Trappier said: “I hope 2013 should be the year.”

As things stand, for Trappier’s wish to come true, either Dassault will have to give in to India’s demands which it has resisted until now or the Indian side will have to relax its tender criteria. Currently, both look unlikely. Given Dassault’s financial situation the company cannot afford any business risk. Whereas, enhanced scrutiny of defence deals in a season ridden with corruption scandals precludes Indian negotiators from extending any concessions.

In this case, the French company will have to do something special. Eyes are on the Paris Air Show which opens 17th of June at Le Bourget in France. Dassault is expected to lay out a red carpet for the Indian delegation. However, in what could come as a dampener to the French company, rumours in the defence ministry corridors suggest that given the sensitive phase of negotiations, the ministry is expected to tone down this year’s participation at the show.

vic · Post by **vic** » 12 May 2013 19:05

Kill Raffy, Go LCA, Go LCA, Go LCA

Suresh_Shyam · Post by **Suresh_Shyam** » 12 May 2013 23:46

Just cancel the Rafale deal and go with more su-30 fighter. but need to invest more money on R&D (for LCA MK2 and AMCA) and University Research.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 May 2013 00:07

LCA++

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 May 2013 04:20

As a newbie, I cannot understand why does Rafale costs 20 billion USD for 100 jets (with 82 made in India at dirt cheap manpower costs). What does it do which an MKI cannot do or MKI+LCA combination cannot do? Why does IAF behave like it is 1980's for small-medium-heavy fighter mix combination? Even the US airforce fields two aircraft types F-16 and F-15, Russians have Mig-29 and Su-30, Britain will have Typhoon and JSF....Is our economy so much bigger than these countries to digest three fighter aircraft types..like 50% more GDP than USA?

MKI costs approx. 40~70 million, LCA costs 20~30 million and Rafale costs 150~200 million per jet. For the price of one Rafale, India can get 4 MKI's or 10 LCA or 2 MKI and 5 LCA's. Plus, the Rafale final price will be 50% more than contract price eventually....and delivered late like Scorpene!

The IAF needs to settle on MKI+LCA combo and stop this distraction. Build 1000+ LCA MK I+II for defense and 400 MKI for Strike in next 3~5 years. That will be enough to make Chinese dumb generals to think twice before encroaching on Indian territory.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2013 04:44

What does it do which an MKI cannot do or MKI+LCA combination cannot do?

Neither the MKI nor the LCA is a "medium" air craft - something that has been discussed umpteen times. For whatever reason "medium" is very important.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 13 May 2013 13:36

Quote from Article in ET

Will Mukesh Ambani's defence aerospace gambit pay off for RIL?

Of course, RIL is not putting all its eggs in one basket: it has already entered into an alliance with French defence giant Dassault to supply components for Rafael fighter aircraft and Falcon business jets. Dassault secured the highly lucrative $15-billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) deal to supply IAF with 126 Rafael aircraft two years ago. The fiercely fought bid saw Dassault outbid the likes of Boeing, Eurofighter, Saab and Lockheed Martin. The second defence official quoted earlier said the government of India is ready to spend as much as Rs 15,000 crore initially for a "technology transfer pact" with Dassault.

"The government is taking a keen interest. The finance ministry is ready to give the money if the ministry of defence asks for it," he said without elaborating.

Rs 15,000 cr on top of the MMRCA bid? Or maybe this is the amount that the Price Negotiation Committee has valued the ToT at and is willing to pay for it within the contract.

Suresh_Shyam · Post by **Suresh_Shyam** » 13 May 2013 20:21

I am very sure RIL will kill ADA and HAL via suck the scientist from her. this is really a bad news for MOD. Obviously mukesh is a business man and will not take this as country security issue. let's hope not to happen. Only advantage is better management.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 13 May 2013 20:46

nik wrote:As a newbie, I cannot understand why does Rafale costs 20 billion USD for 100 jets (with 82 made in India at dirt cheap manpower costs). What does it do which an MKI cannot do or MKI+LCA combination cannot do?

It my perception that a lot of BRFites want the Rafale much more badly than the IAF itself. BRFites have spent so much time (thanks to the excruciatingly slow defence acquisition process) in intense discussion on highly technical matters, comparing all possible specifications and scrutinizing every little piece of information that they have become emotionally attached to this aircraft. Also because the highly glossy brochures(a major source material for the afore mentioned discussions) claim a lot of super-duperness, they seem to be of the opinion that nothing but the bestest(and of course the most expensive) will do, else we don't stand a chance against the Chinese. The idea that all India needs an affordable, reliable and reasonable capable aircraft is complete blaspheme.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 May 2013 20:52

Good time to invest in RIL Shares ?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 13 May 2013 21:10

^^^
I wouldn't discount HAL own lobbying skills.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 May 2013 21:38

Spending 20 billion USD on Rafale means no more budget for UAV, UCAV...all "U...' are gone for next decade. That is a reality which folks should understand and that we are spending to fight yesterday's war and not tomorrow's war. If China can field 2~3000 fighter jets then they can field twice that many UAV. How will Rafale be of any help in this scenario?

We will need LCA and UAV in 'numbers' to knock out 3~4K Chinese UAV in a cost efficient manner. India is better off spending the 20 Billion USD in developing UAV and related infrastructure.

We missed the indigenous fighter development opportunity after Gnat and had to import fighter's for next 40+ years. Let's not do a repeat for UAV's please. Repeating the same mistake twice is Stupidity.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 May 2013 21:43

My guess is that IAF does not trust MKI against the Chinese as they have the MKK. Buying Rafale will be repeating the same mistake though.

France is lobbying hard for Europe to lift arms embargo against China. Moment it happens, Rafale tricks and secrets will be in Chinese hands in a matter of days (and for far less than we are paying the french). We will be back to square one of having two 'compromised' aircrafts to face the Chinese with.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 May 2013 21:53

My suggestion to Honorable George Fernandes: Sell off ADA and HAL to Mukesh Ambani.

HAL/ADA are unsustainable entities in today's world. They cannot survive against the Boeing/Dassault/EADS/BAE...of the world. They will survive only if we were under an arms embargo/sanctions like China is after tiananmen square.

GOI will not only make money but we will morph from an Arms importer to an exporter overnight. What a play...Money+Indigenous Fighters+FOREX in one shot!

nits · Post by **nits** » 14 May 2013 13:09

Ah i didn't know we replaced Antony with George F

nits · Post by **nits** » 14 May 2013 13:10

Blast from the Past: Sukhoi and its offer for MMRCA

hen IAF issued Request for Information (RFI) in 2001 for MMRCA tender, IAF in MMRCA tender was looking for an aircraft in medium class category , IAF had initially had planned to purchase 126 Mirage 2000-5s to equip seven squadrons but later deal was opened to other players to avoid single vendor deal.

Sukhoi Bureau sensing opportunity to sell more fighters after successfully completing MKI project for India , had proposed to India development of S-55 fighter based on Su-27 aerodynamics powered by single example of the Saturn AL-31 TVC engine instead of two, S-55 could have been scaled down accordingly to a smaller layout.

Sukhoi Bureau had done research work on S-55 in 90’s but after collapse of Soviet Union no single prototype was developed and project was in cold storage, Proposed S-55 was supposed to borrow heavily from Sukhoi 30 MKI in avionics and design, Sukhoi had kept radar nose cone diameter similar to Su-30, which could have allowed it to carry same radar as MKI.

S-55 aerodynamic configuration resembled that of the Su-33 fighter the Su-30, But India refused to consider a further derivatives of Sukhoi Su-30 for MMRCA and also rejected initial proposal of a Joint venture on S-55, so No RFI or RFP was sent to Sukhoi Bureau. S-55 by many was considered paper plane and no serious thought about it was ever given to it, although RFI and RFP was sent to almost all companies barring Chinese companies, Sukhoi was also kept out of this process . India eventually allowed Gripen NG Demo and Mig-35 aircrafts which were not fully developed to participate in MMRCA trails; Sukhoi was interested in development of S-55 prototype if IAF had send out RFI and RFP for MMRCA requirements to them but that never happened. 10 years down the line MMRCA deal is yet to be signed .

S-55/56 17.5 meters long
spread 11.7 m
height 5.1 m
wing area 49.2 sq. m. (40 sq. m.)
weight maximum 15000 kgf
normal 11250 kgf
empty 8000 kgf
fuel 4500 kgf
load 3000 kgf
speed max 2100 km/h
speed cruise 1400 km/h
service ceiling 59,000ft
range 510 miles on internal fuel at low level, 1,810 miles at height
distance 4000 km
engine AL-31F 12500 kG. AL-41F1 15500 kG.

Note sure why this news is leaked at this stage...?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 15 May 2013 05:09

nits wrote:Ah i didn't know we replaced Antony with George F

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 15 May 2013 05:15

nits wrote: Note sure why this news is leaked at this stage...?

Is IDRW.org a trustworthy site?

Not sure if this is the right discussion thread for asking this?

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 23 May 2013 20:37

Two articles. Rafale too late and we need them? Both say leave aside MMRCA and move on ..

http://frontierindia.net/should-india-c ... ft-numbers

http://frontierindia.net/does-indian-ai ... ale-at-all

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 02 Jun 2013 11:50

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 02 Jun 2013 14:01

Dassault better switch old school CRT in command center for LCD panels and update DOS style command interfaces before showing this to anyone...

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Jun 2013 16:32

nik wrote:Dassault better switch old school CRT in command center for LCD panels and update DOS style command interfaces before showing this to anyone...

Why? Did any pilot tell you that the current configuration of the Rafale cockpit is uncomfortable?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 02 Jun 2013 16:42

MMRCA negotiations progressing:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... -ii-373844

"We are also in the process of finalising heavy-lift helicopters from Boeing and also to induct Apache attack helicopters. Negotiations on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal with French Rafale is progressing on track.

These things have been moving smoothly and most of these, we hope to finalise by September or October," he said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2013 18:58

nik wrote:Dassault better switch old school CRT in command center for LCD panels and update DOS style command interfaces before showing this to anyone...

I share your concern/s.

However, sadly BR posters - in their excitement perhaps (or due to a bias in some cases) - do not post the date associated with their links.

That video is from 2006 and much water has since flowed under that bridge.

Besides IIRC the MMRCA deal has a clause where the platform should be MKIzed. So, the Indian Rafale (if inducted) should have the latest and greatest. Comfort or not that Is the standard. (Samtel is the supplier in India?)

One thing to note, that video has everything on the display in English. The French services are the only ones to use the Rafale and I will be damned if they moved to English in 2006 that just could not have happened. : ). The person who uploaded it has written some commentary in French!!! It is a well made (for 2006) PR video.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 03 Jun 2013 00:24

NRao wrote:Comfort or not that Is the standard.

Would you care to offer any technical details about the changes the IAF has ordered relative to the cockpit displays in the Rafale F3 of the French Air Force?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jun 2013 00:51

See.. the problem with this type of large purchase models is that IAF is further segregated from latest technology in terms of technology enablers and building capabilities. One need not order a mother of all needs into one basket. Things will have to weighted against needs and progress requirements.

Cancel this puppy was the slogan emanated few months back.. imho, is better we focus on technology sub-component partnership and enhancements.. there by more money force and resources are provided to home grown systems and foreign integration systems, with federated home control systems.

At least we can take up this route post LCA FoC. It is a huge waste of moolah into firang mouth. Neither Russia nor France will share technology from blue prints to operational aspects. We have to do it all by ourselves, and this moorkh concept must be erased from our strategists w.r.t big ticket purchase and power influence.. at EoD, it is all the agents and politicians who gain money and power, and leaving the country's security with a gaping hole.

the other down side is IAF capability jumpstarting by missing generation of technology leading to larger catch-up level, and reducing the maturity of such capabilities. The learning process comes down, and as an organization, it becomes weak.

These weaknesses will only be seen at the time of war.. We are fortunate that IAF has no clear and present enemies around though they are there at some future point which is 100% possibility. All it takes is chinese economy going down, and they will start creating problems for India.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Jun 2013 01:13

the strategy of ToT has been a failure - it has not sparked serious industrial capability development (over the past 30-40 years)
we might have been better buying rafales off the french production line and possibly supplying part assemblies to them? that way - saik's ideas above have merit

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 03 Jun 2013 01:15

SaiK wrote:We are fortunate that IAF has no clear and present enemies around

That just about sums up the worth of your post

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 03 Jun 2013 02:01

Excellent rafale with PAF HD video (Patrouille Aérienne de France, not Pakistan Air force...) :

http://vimeo.com/67333502

enjoy

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jun 2013 19:54

Beg to differ at logistics and ops value which is largely driven by war time capabilities for support and extreme/maximized/optimized production model.. To take up maruti type of technology, we have numbers, and we are capable, and apply that analogy here is not apt, imho.

From the need angle, people can drive maruti given monopoly, will drive it anywhere.. and thankfully, the car is small and dabba cheap, and fits to be in any small indic lanes. besides, that, the car is pathetic when it comes to security and critical aspects where the engineering discipline is entirely different for aerospace products. no comparisons at all, and just bringing that here is an insult to our aero-setup and institutions.

OTOH, not bottleneck-ing HAL is good thought.. and must be encouraged. Yes, bring in more private participation at sub component levels. I can't think Tatas or Birlas coming up as HAL substitutes at our current maturity and capability levels.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Jun 2013 20:02

saik - as an aside, but of relevance - it took the western car manufacturers almost 20-30 years to catch up with japanese automotive production engineering capabilities - to be able to produce cars in volume and at the quality levels achieved in Japanese plants. even 20 years later, uk plants of american car co's had productivity 20-30% of uk plants of japanese owners. one could argue that product engineering wise the euros and americans were as good - but clearly they were not able to produce them at the required volume, cost and quality...

aircraft production is similar but more complex and the scale economics are different

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jun 2013 20:36

Good juxtapositions on the production capabilities there from various markets.. and also remember, where India stands, from being a third world country, and only focused on pocket development and advancements.

Technology mindsets and Engineering resource capabilities comes from the civilian zone (brain power), and that should not be forgotten. It is vital that if we are to follow American or Euro model of match up game with Japanese capabilities, but again, we can say, here and there our capabilities are matching at certain research levels rather production engineering levels.

Besides Engineering, the role of supporting capabilities and resources associated with it, are the management of projects, programs and budgeting. Babooze and ground zero security threats provides feeds into (for example the missile dev plan). What is also is another of the factor that negatively influencing is politics and corruption..of course, we write mile long text for this alone, and become OT here, but we should not fail to mention them here.

We can overcome all these difficulties only by establishing standards and compliance to a production engineering framework. A framework that currently suits our situation is HAL integration services, while private space picks up occupying components and zones within that umbrella organization. integrated but disparate enough, but have to be on component model based., where the integration and collaboration are the only points to be very clear., and this can happen only with one organization that is managing the program. A new organization can be formed if need be representing all sectors.

But, the fact remains, is the needs of IAF, and if that is delayed and thrown beyond timeline and scope, then the program itself comes to a big question.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 04 Jun 2013 21:07

arthuro wrote:Excellent rafale with PAF HD video (Patrouille Aérienne de France, not Pakistan Air force...) :

http://vimeo.com/67333502

enjoy

I have tried my best to tell successive French Ambassadors and their Defence Attaches (invariably French Air Force Colonels) that, in India, they should not use the acronym PAF for the Patrouille de France. It gives an entirely negative impression / image in our country of one of the finest aerobatic teams in the world.

The French, in many cases, are as obstinate as the worst Indian babus. They persist in using "PAF" for the Patrouille and then they have to explain sheepishly that they are not referring to the air wing of our notorious western neighbour.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 05 Jun 2013 09:28

They must have been blown off by your logic, eh? BTW, can you name the French ambassadors and colonels you have spoken to. Or how many and during what period?

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Jun 2013 09:39

ranji wrote:They must have been blown off by your logic, eh? BTW, can you name the French ambassadors and colonels you have spoken to. Or how many and during what period?

Are you out of your mind ? Got up with a bad pain in your derrière ?

If you don't understand the subject that is being discussed, stay off the keyboard. This is a serious forum and not a platform for your juvenile outbursts.

And, who the heck are you to ask me to name my interlocutors in French official circles ? Are you a demented local thanedar ?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 05 Jun 2013 09:44

ranji wrote:They must have been blown off by your logic, eh? BTW, can you name the French ambassadors and colonels you have spoken to. Or how many and during what period?

Ranji: You have to grasp the context of the following:
a) Chaiwallah
b) Tenth removed Cousin's father-in-laws barber et al.

Not difficult to grasp. Unless you are a demented thanedar, from Krachi

Sorry if O/T for this thread. Sheesh.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 05 Jun 2013 09:45

I can hardly see 'PAF' designation being the prime, secondary or even remote concern for French to be told to all diplomats and attaches. I can only say 'WOW' if you managed to tell that too all the officials there. I found your reply 'frevole.' I have no idea why are you venting in the morning. Since you consider yourself professional, you will live up to it.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Jun 2013 09:50

rajanb wrote:
ranji wrote:They must have been blown off by your logic, eh? BTW, can you name the French ambassadors and colonels you have spoken to. Or how many and during what period?
Ranji: You have to grasp the context of the following:
a) Chaiwallah
b) Tenth removed Cousin's father-in-laws barber et al.

Not difficult to grasp. Unless you are a demented thanedar, from Krachi

Sorry if O/T for this thread. Sheesh.

Another "demented" post by a person who thinks putting finger to keyboard and sprouting garbage is a constitutional right.

Grow up, chaps.