Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[Jean_M]

Tanks Manish Sharma, I've never really been gone, just keeping my mouth shut wen I've got nothing to say. I've been reading plenty.

I want to be clear on the reasons which made me post this video here (I've read comments about bragging earlier).

From my point of view, the goal is not to brag. Ok, there you have a Rafale going Fox 2 on an F22 and scoring a gun kill. Interest ? Zero: we don't know the engagement rules.

If you remove the fanboy point of view,
- it's pretty much the first Rafale dogfight video we got to see
- the interest resides in the informations provided by the HUD regarding G forces, AOA and speed. It tells much on the maniability and abilities of the plane.

[Austin]

Nice Video on Rafale , I guess being a lighter aircraft even if it has lower thrust compared to its peers it helps in combat

[RKumar]

Foreign secretary in paris; discusses indo-french issues

India's Foreign secretary, Ranjan Mathai, was in Paris for foreign office consultations. He met the French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius on Monday. He also spoke to HT about other key foreign policy matters. Agreement signed An agreement was signed between India and France for the waiver of visas for diplomatic passports for short term visits. This was cleared by the Indian cabinet recently. Mr Mathai said that the relationship with France is one of India's critical relations and that India is now very high in their priorities as well. President Hollande's visit to India soon after he assumed office was a clear indicator of France's keen interest in India. Mr Mathai said the "classical pillars of Indo-French partnership" were Defence, Nuclear, Space, political dialogue and counter terrorism.

Rafale

Dassault had expressed concerns about HAL's (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) capacity to deliver on time. As per the conditions of the Request for proposal (RFP), Dassault would deliver the first 18 aircrafts, HAL would manufacture the next batch of 108 but Dassault would be responsible for the final product. Dassault, however, were not happy with what they saw in their investigation of HAL's past record. India has been asking for one and not two separate contracts.

The Foreign Secretary said "Our own consultations at home have shown that both sides, Dassault and HAL, hadn't really thought through this question which is clear in the strict meaning of the RFP which they had read. It's the feeling that now that they have discussed this so much more they are much closer to an understanding of where they stand so we feel that it's possible to make progress."

Asked if Dassault had withdrawn their demand to have the Ambanis as their preferred partner in India, Mr Mathai said he was not aware that there was a demand they should be dropped. He said, "Who their other partners are is not an issue. They are a total of 18 partners with whom they will be signing their own contracts. But they have to find a way so that as the main contractor they are liable and responsible for the aircraft and the delivery but HAL is going to be the agent that will work with them in India to deliver it. I think that now they have had so many rounds of discussions, they understand each other a lot better. So the potential for progress is very good."

Last week, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, said in Paris that he was confident about the sale of the Rafale to India by the end of 2013. Mr. Mathai said the tone has changed because some of the issues were there because the discussions hadn't taken place and now the problem is on its way to resolution.

Short ranged surface to air missiles

On the SRCAM, Mr Mathai said, the internal process was going on in India and once that is over India intends to go ahead with this project too. "These will be very large projects with France and will be requiring very intense engagement of an industrial, defence and therefore political nature over a very long period of time."

Jaitapur civil nucelar project

According to the Foreign Secreatry, India feels the need for a more intensive engagement between governments to take matters forward. "There are still a number of issues which we need to resolve relating to overall cost of the project. I did convey is that we will be laying a lot of attention to getting these resolved so that we can go ahead and on both sides there is a feeling that we need to deal with it from a slightly higher perspective because so far a lot of has been discussed between AREVA and NPCIL. The DEA has also been involved. We think now that we need to see why is it that some of the issues we haven't been able to resolve and see whether more people should be involved."

Nuclear liability

The french side brought up the question of nuclear liability. Mr Ranjan Mathai said, "We had already had some fairly intensive dialogues with other countries. We have it with France also. We will discuss it bilaterally with them. The fact is that it is our law but we have been saying that within the four corners of that law we will do whatever we can to address any issues and concerns the french might have." Mr Mathai said France could send a group of layers to look into the legal aspects, just as the US did recent. "At the end of the day irrespective of who the partner is they will have to realize that finally it's the courts of law that decide and that's true anywhere in the world", he added.


EU- India free trade agreement

EU and India have not been able to resolve their numerous differences in the long drawn negotiations over the signing of a free trade agreement. Europe wants India to open up the services sector which requires the insurance bill to go through the Indian Parliament. When asked about the problem EU has with providing India the status of "data-secure country", Mr Mathai said, "It is quite a big issue from our point of view because we say we get that kind of a status without any specific designation from the US. Irrespective of what they call it, they can give the same facility here, the same acceptance of our status."

Mr Ranjan Mathai said "An agreement with a partner like India needs a strategic calculus rather each little point getting dealt with, in the sense that it is imp for India and the EU, major players, democracies, committed to a certain way of multilateral order, to actually now finalize this and move on.

india bid for membership for nsg and security council

Mr Ranjan Mathai said things are moving along but there hasn't been any real progress on India's entry into the UN security council. On the export control regimes, he said, "France reiterated it's very strong support to India which is important for us bec there are other countries who haven't come on board to the same extent. But we will continue our dialogue. In fact I will probably we having another outreach meeting with the NSG very soon."


China "string of pearls"

Asked whether China's string of pearls program, where they are working on several maritime locations in India's neighborhood was a cause for worry Mr Mathai said, "It's certainly something you take into your strategic calculus. But like my predecessor said, 'a string of pearls doesn't sound like a lethal weapon'. The stated reason for the presence in these is commercial. The potential for a commercial facilility to used for other purposes always exists but right now it would appear that this is the main purpose their intention.We are aware of it and we do calculate that we need to keep it in mind.


US spying

The Indian foreign secretary brushed aside the question of India's position on US surveillance. He said, "There is an assumption among some of our pple that they've always assumed that someone is spying and don't rule out anybody. Is it a completely baffling issue that someone is reading your mails and tapping your phones?"

[Victor]

... F 22. Wnderful plane. Now, if only it could drop bombs.

It can --- 2 x 1,000 lb JDAMs in addition to AA missiles.

Few points to keep in mind about F-22 vs Rafale:

- Any jet without thrust-vector has no chance in air-to-air against it, WVR or BVR, even not counting avionics. Forget youtube.
-By act of Congress, US won't give Raptor to its closest allies--UK, Australia, Israel, Japan--even though they are standing in line with mountains of cash to throw on the program.
- Its job is to kick down the door and keep the air clear for follow on forces--the tip of the spear. Nothing can stop it from doing this right now and the word used officially is "impunity".
-If the US saw a need for more Raptors, it would make them, period. The fact is they don't, in spite of PAKFA, J-20 on the horizon.

Point is, even though very little is known about it, everybody that matters is trying to counter the F-22, not the Rafale.

[Jaybhatt]

DASSAULT'S P.R. STANCE ON INDIA

I really did not want to prolong this pointless exchange on this thread, but I have been compelled to do so, thanks to two extraordinarily vituperative, petulant, jejune and obtuse posts by Eklavya and Prithwiraj. And a flea-bite from Jean_M , whose post, paradoxically, I had endorsed earlier.

I will deal with my compatriots first before coming to JM.

Let me tell the two hyper-ventilating secularists that they should really stop frothing. Otherwise, they will end up by bursting a few blood vessels.

Eklavya : “Jaybhatt, your post has got to rate as the worst post (by a long way) on BR this year

1) For having nothing better to do than comment on a website and images that are almost 18 months old, and that too on the least relevant content of that website.

2) For comments that have nothing to do with the subject of this thread”

You are entitled to your views, however asinine they are. I follow Voltaire in this matter, about disagreeing totally with someone but also upholding his right to speak his mind. I think you are writing gibberish. I will tell you why in a moment.

Prithwiraj :

“Ha ha .. JayBhatt -- you must be crazy--- all I see is a girl praying with Diyas at the backdrop of Majestic Tajmahal--- that girl is not a muslim --as she is having some flowers and not covering her head --- etc.. I mean overall aesthetically an animated Rafael flying across the backdrop is pathetic for a site's animated rotating banner .. but the points you raised about Islamic symbolism is trolling of the highest kind”

Let a wider forum judge who is crazy. Your logic is so batty that you have to be read slowly to let your absurdities become transparent.

First let me explain to the two of you why my post was relevant to this thread. The entire MMCA deal is meant to provide the IAF with sufficient capabilities to successfully deter our rogue neighbour to the West. We have a civilisational conflict with Pakistan and the abhorrent wahabi Islamism that it clearly wants to impose on India. If you don’t understand this or even want to understand this, both of you should join the flat-earth society.

In pursuing this objective, India and the IAF should not only have a first-class aircraft but also a long-term partner that must be an all-weather friend. Dassault should treat India not just as a commercial client but also as a counterparty that must be extended empathy at all times. Therefore, it is essential that Dassault’s senior honchos have a basic idea of this country and its culture, history and ethos. This will go a long way to ensure their commitment to the IAF and India. To view India through an alien prism (and I do think that treating India as a country whose Islamic identity has to be projected first is tantamount to an alien prism) is a gross error on the part of Dassault. They can, of course, lay the blame at the door of their Indian PR advisors ; this, in turn, would show up Dassault as incompetent and careless.

I trust this explains why my initial post was and is relevant to this thread. This is hardly quantum physics, chaps. Therefore I am hoping against hope that this penetrates the Maginot Line of defence that you have constructed around your cranium.

Many of my other BR colleagues like Singha, SaiK and Lalmohan clearly shared my concern. But the two of you only want to display your tantrums and your peevishness to the BR readers and the rest of the universe.

More of Ekalavya : Your harrumphing borders on dementia and mania. You are sure the girl model is facing East and not West. This, surely makes you an astronomer in the same league as Aryabhatta, Copernicus and Ptolemy. Take a reality check, my man. You don’t know how risible you appear. The rest of your rant is equally nonsensical – just look at the way the model holds her palms. When did you see a Hindu ritual involving such a position of the palms ? That’s enough of you for one session.

Now Shri Prithwiraj : you sound even more batty than your fellow fruit cake. To display how gaga you are, you refer to the aircraft under discussion as a “Rafael”. Shows where you are floundering. Don’t you even bother to read the title of the thread? Since this just about sums up your rant, there is no purpose in responding to the rest of your garbage.

Shri JM : I was courteous to you and commended you on your post. You come back and call me a troll. Not done, my man. I will leave it at that. Go back to putting up a few more interesting clips.

It is just not worth my while to spend more time on the type of posts that have been put up by Sarvashri Eklavya and Prithwiraj.

[Cosmo_R]

@JayBhatt ^^^:

Er, that's 'jejeune'

[Jaybhatt]

@JayBhatt ^^^:

Er, that's 'jejeune'

Oh dear, we have another namuna, who suffers from the finger-on-the-keyboard syndrome.

Tried looking up the spell-check in WORD under the English (India) or English (UK) options? Or any other on-line dictionary ?
Or Googled it even ? You will find that "jejeune" is categorically classified as a "misspelling" in every essay on the subject. There is one scintillating one by Kingsley Amis on this theme, meant specifically for "poseurs" like you who think they know French.

And there is no more genuine French word than "poseur".

[member_20067]

@JayBhatt ^^^:

Er, that's 'jejeune'

Oh dear, we have another namuna, who suffers from the finger-on-the-keyboard syndrome.

Tried looking up the spell-check in WORD under the English (India) or English (UK) options? Or any other on-line dictionary ?
Or Googled it even ? You will find that "jejeune" is categorically classified as a "misspelling" in every essay on the subject. There is one scintillating one by Kingsley Amis on this theme, meant specifically for "poseurs" like you who think they know French.

And there is no more genuine French word than "poseur".

you trolling skill is really impressive... that girl was not Muslim you have been called out for that--- because you have no clue about culture/religious symbolism though you seem to talk at length about it. Now admit your mistake and move on

[Karan M]

French Rafale is best at dogfight

Vinage said some of his best moments in flying were during the Indo-French exercises. "We went in with the Rafale and IAF came in with the Su-30. That's when we got a good look at the aircraft. The first thought that came to my mind was power -- Su-30 is about power and being powerful. But for the dogfight, I'd go for the Rafale."

This is just subjective opinion & nor does the pilot make it clear which Su-30 he is referring to & whether the IAF used all its bag of tricks, namely TVC.

Ask an IAF pilot experience with the Su-30 MKI and he'd quietly note the advantages conferred by the combination of TVC, HMCS & HOBS missiles, the first of which Rafale lacks. TVC is critical to nose pointing ability and allowed the IAF to rack up incredible kill ratios against legacy fighters at Mountain Home in gunfights, something the Rafale is yet to achieve.

IAFs via Pushpindar Singh on TVC 1:1s at Mountain Home notes:

Ø There is no need to go in for 'kill ratios' as that would be demeaning. However, the IAF had significant edge throughout and retained it. In fact the true lesson for the USAF should be : 'do not field low value legacy equipment against the Su-30MKI' !.
(demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).

In contrast Rafale has not achieved such lopsided ratios.

The RAF chief said in 2011 that the Typhoons beat the Su-30MKI. His words were "well, they lost".

http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cises.html

Again, no mention of the ROE, or what constraints the IAF operated their Su-30 MKIs with.
Unlike the British, the IAF was in no desire to hard sell the Su-30 MKI or export it, and can hence operate with their hands relatively closed.

Lets see the precedent. In the first IndraDhanush, the IAF went up against the Tornado F3s and won, with their Su-30 MKIs. But reports also noted that IAF Su-30 MKIs deliberately operated with a restricted set of radar modes!
In IndraDhanush 2, set in the UK, the IAF refused to operate the Bars radar, noting that an ELINT RAF aircraft was flying nearby, and used Tornado's for designation/radar pickup.
At Red Flag, versus the US, the IAF operated with a restricted set of Su-30 MKI capabilities, including its radar in a training mode. Despite that, the IAF topped the BVR charts on several days.

This year, NIIP noted it had developed a specific simulation mode for the IAF's Bars & also notes that the latest 42 aircraft will be delivered to the latest "hardware and software standards". Clearly, the system has been refined further & the IAF is in no hurry to publicize it either, given it has no rush or mandate to export the aircraft.

If you think that in IndraDhanush 3, the IAF would have employed its full bag of tricks versus the Typhoons, which on the other hand were desperately angling for an export order and had to impress the IAF...then its an unrealistic premise.

And, the superiority of the Rafale vs the Typhoon is laid out in some detail here (report signed by the Swiss Air Force chief):

http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf

Again, out of date information. The data in that report is now several years out of date. The Typhoons in the meantime have gone through several upgrades, hardware and software & are in no way representative of the aircraft that took part in that competition!

BVR depends a lot on whether AWACS are being used (if they are, fighter can keep its own radar off), vulnerability of radar/missiles/datalink to jamming, thermal signature, efficiency of optronics, etc. The Su-30 has a larger RCS (maybe 30 to 50+ times more than Rafale)

Speculative to say the least. The Su-30 RCS can be treated with RAM to suppress key hotspots - which the Russians and Indians both have the technology to do, and also employs high power jammers with large antenna arrays. In contrast, the Rafale Spectra suite is limited to small focused apertures. Different approaches for different designs.

and higher thermal signature,

Not relevant, as currently the Su-30 has a functional IRST and the Rafale does not.

the Rafale's AESA radar has a lower probability of intercept

Again, speculation. The Rafale's AESA is not a true LPI set, unlike the APG-77. In the same vein, the Bars being a PESA is also a LPI radar as is the Rafale as both employ rapidly focused "pencil" beams, but both can be detected by modern digital RWRs.

and lower vulnerability to jamming,

Speculation.

the METEOR will be less vulnerable to jamming, etc.

Again, more speculation. What is known about the Meteor at this point is that it leverages the seeker from the MBDA Mica series. As such its a RF seeker and hence susceptible to RF jamming. If it was a multi band seeker, then perhaps your point would be valid. Its as vulnerable or less so, than comparable seekers on the AMRAAM, R77 etc.

There's no point fretting about it, we need this capability to whip the PLAAF Su-27/Su-30/J-10/J-11/etc.

[/quote]

The issue is not of what the Rafale can do or cannot, its about the far reaching conclusions you draw on the basis of sketchy data & subjective opinion.

Going by the above, since the IAF's Su-30Ks "beat" the USAF F-15Cs in Cope India at Gwalior, the latter are inferior across the board to the former. Never mind, tactics, ROE or what systems each side was simulating! Whereas the reality is that the F-15Cs featured several avionics systems superior to the then Su-30Ks, though they lacked other items.

Similarly, when you compare today's Rafale's to today's Su-30 MKIs, there are several capabilities on the Su, that are yet to be found on the Rafale. But you ignore these. Then you go ahead and compare the yet to be in service, upgraded Rafale to the Su, without the Sukhoi upgrade taken into consideration, and dont even acknowledge that even then, the baseline Sukhoi of today has capabilities the upgraded Rafale won't (e.g. in specific weapons). Never mind that the upgraded Sukhoi will bring so many capabilities to the table that it will again outstrip the Rafale in several areas. Its all about trade-off's and without detailed comparisons, generics are of limited use, and misleading.

For instance, what do we know of the Super 30 upgrade:
- New cockpit instrumentation based on work by Sukhoi and DARE, employing tech from the Su-35 (which btw has sensor fusion)
- New mission computing suite
- New radar & sensor suite (with significant upgrades to the Bars- option 1 proposed by NIIP, or a replacement by Phaza's Zhuk AESA. Either of which is far superior in terms of scan angles and several parameters to the much smaller AESA on the Rafale, which in turn may score in terms of reliability and cost of ownership)
- New EW suite (displayed by DARE). These could be either the existing high power SAP pods or unique to the type developed by DARE.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dqhsmMq852k/U ... ucts-1.jpg

- New weaponry (Brahmos, new missiles etc). Russia itself is now operationalizing new variants of the R73, R77, Kh-28 (replacing the Kh-25 and Kh-29 series), GPS guided bombs, new Kh-31PD (long range, new wideband seeker), newer Kh-59 variant, new long range missile RVV-BD (with 200 km range)...all of these are on offer to the IAF, if it so chooses.
And several more items..

http://airforcechat.wordpress.com/2013/ ... er-sukhoi/

And these Super-30s will be stationed against the PRC per prior reports. The Super 30 upgrade itself is in two tranches. The second to utilize technologies developed for the PAKFA.

To ignore all this, and to hype up the Rafale as being the single stop against the Chinese is folly.
As matter of fact, its the Sukhois with their large onboard AI radars which will have a better chance to detect the newer LO Chinese fighters in the absence of AWACs. The Rafales one key issue is that its radar aperture is limited, and that will make its radar range performance fall behind that of a Bars level aperture (1 mtr dia).

Since the IAF is now working on its ODL (Operational Data Link), its quite possible that Su-30s and Rafales will work in pairs, with the former acting as the long range eyes, and the latter the shooters, firing from off axis positions to confuse the enemy.

Net, the IAF requires both types. Not merely the one.

[Karan M]

-If the US saw a need for more Raptors, it would make them, period. The fact is they don't, in spite of PAKFA, J-20 on the horizon.

Thats because the US has staked everything on the F-35. With a procurement run of 2400 F-35s or thereabouts, it can afford to restrict its F-22 purchase to some 180 odd.
If there was no F-35, the US would buy more F-22s.
Its a different matter that the F-35 is going to be more and more dependent on its stealth and avionics, as versus the PAK-FA which is shaping up to be a kinematic beast but with lower all round stealth (though with comparable LO in the front and specific areas, and good avionics). Different approaches.. the Russians clearly think that LO/VLO is not going to last forever, but maneuverability/agility will still allow high flying aircraft to evade future threats provided there is time to detect them.
J-20 - its more hype than substance at this point. While the Chinese may succeed in reducing its signature, its avionics and propulsion remain behind what Russia is fielding on its interim Su-35S, hence the Chinese interest in buying the type. Its a generation behind in terms of avionics & propulsion (which mean limited kinematic performance) than the PAKFA.

Given this, and total procurement of PAKFA by Russia will be some 200 odd units, with similar numbers by India. USAF is clearly thinking that 2400 odd F-35s plus 180 odd F-22s are sufficient to face any future threats.

Provided the F-35 delivers.

[Manish_Sharma]

Karan, how close behind rafale & ef2k's IRST systems like PIRATE are to catch up with russian systems like OLS 35 & OLS 50?

[Singha]

has the rafale OSF1 been updated from the mid 90s FOC kit? I heard due to funding cutbacks many french rafales fly with the OSF "deleted" and no word on when a updated OSF2 would be available or funded (perhaps once our first cheque clears!)

wrt to the PIRATE, is it even FOC operational on any of the eurofighter users and seeing any useful work?

to me it seems only the OLS-50 on PAKFA is a guaranteed entity being based on the widely used OLS30.

[Manish_Sharma]

^^Ah I thought PIRATE is fully ready, is there any chance of OLS 30 integrated on Rafale? Like french things on T 90.

[nits]

Karan - agree with your post... but if Rafael is not that superior to SU-30 in all the aspects you mentioned ; why are we going ahead with it - Why not just buy more SU-30... i understand the different requirement mode and aircraft type but still...

[member_20453]

Indeed, the Rafale isn't the aircraft we shouldn't be looking at. What we need is a workshorse, proper all rounder and the only one of the 6 that are proven is 4.5 gen tech is the SH and with the International variantsIts upgrades, it makes more sense than ever. It has among the lowest costs among all twin engines, it brings in billions in saving on maintanance and logistics commonality with LCA mk-2 over decades and would come with roughly the same TOT the french are offering now.

Its AESA is probably the most reliable and proven currently, it is produced at great rates, its cheaper per unit and over its lifetime. It has assured USN support till 2030 and beyond. It has one of the best nose pointing abilities in the western world and with those new EPE engines it should purr like a kitten.

Had we chosen SH as L-1, I am sure the first one would be arriving by next year already, instead we are being dragged into a BS discussion with Dassault which is pretty much abondoning every promise it made.

[Cosmo_R]

Fellow BRFites, I have reason to suspect that our newest troll is a reincarnation of V.K. Krishna Menon (he of the 7 hour UN speech). He too would never respond to a question with a simple answer but empty half his vocabulary.

He too was fond of 'jejune' and as used by Kingsley Amis, 'jejeune'. When someone asked him what this word meant, he actually went into a similar hissy fit. Every time, I see someone using such an obscure word (five times in the last 50 or so years) in ordinary conversation, I reflexively ask the same spelling question to elicit a reaction.

VKKM, much as our troll, understood individual words but not people. But then he was not a well man.

[viveks]

Actually, I am sorted of irritated with the way BRF thread space is made use off. Randomly meaning less assertions with no foundation, all been thrown into the public with no what so ever background/experience/skills to judge a platform. Just simply judging 'complex toys with feature definitions' does not make you a zidane of the battle field. My point here is that Rafale is very capable offensive platform and IAF has judged it according to what they will need. By the time, it makes its landing here it will be another 10 yrs when the world will have another equation governing it.

[abhik]

Karan - agree with your post... but if Rafael is not that superior to SU-30 in all the aspects you mentioned ; why are we going ahead with it - Why not just buy more SU-30... i understand the different requirement mode and aircraft type but still...

Me thinks the same. The whole MRCA saga started because of the delays in the LCA. Now that the MRCA itself is delayed that the LCA mk1 production will start before even the first Rafale lands. And most of the Rafale production will overlap with mk2. This has obviated the need for the MRCA. Any Rafales ordered now will cannibalize LCA numbers.
A small number of additional MKIs(say 40-60) and bumping up the production rate of LCA to say 40-50 per year will not only give us equal if not better capability at significantly lesser cost.

[NRao]

Decision making should happen within windows. Once the time taken to make a decision spans beyond a window then old rules/arguments/reasons/whatever do not hold any more.

Now the only reason the IAF needs the MMRCA is to build up squad strengths, that is pretty much it - at a very high level. Seems to me that the Rafale, LCA, perhaps even the FGFA will all come on the scene at the same time. Push it harder and even the AMCA may make an appearance within 5-10 years after the MMRCA.

If they take a little longer the number of args against a MMRCA (not Rafale - although I think even this plane is not worth it any loner) should exceed the ones for it.

[member_20453]

If IAF Rafale needs were based on requirements 10 years from now, well then there hasn't been a bigger blunder in IAF since its formation. Rafale doesn't yet meet in this current day, the needs of a full scale 4.5 gen aircraft which some of the contenders meet for over 10 years.

[SaiK]

any decision making only delays due to lack of operational information and pricing/production model. so, IAF and selection team is stuck with details that is roadblocking anything further. PERIOD

[Indranil]

If IAF Rafale needs were based on requirements 10 years from now, well then there hasn't been a bigger blunder in IAF since its formation. Rafale doesn't yet meet in this current day, the needs of a full scale 4.5 gen aircraft which some of the contenders meet for over 10 years.

There has never been a more persistent fanboy on this forum

[Christopher Sidor]

F22 has been a pre-FOC type plane for 10 yrs and FOCed bird with no clear role or useful capability for the next 12 years. it sat out all the wars in serbia, iraq, libya, afghanistan due to lack of any A2A threat and zero A2G abilities. it needs new kit and funding to even talk to non-F22 a/c because its airborne datalink works only with other f22.

one can only say its paid off in the R&D that came out of it , and then got used in UCAVs and JSF. plus the engine laid a base for the JSF engine.

but they needlessly built 189 of them.....I would expect atleast 100 might be mothballed once JSF comes online well before their lifespan.

unlike R&D contracts, the production money is controlled by powerful senators with factories and jobs in their constituencies, so often things get built even if the pentagon says it needs no more.

I would beg to differ. The F-22 has a different mission in mind as compared to F-35. They serve different needs. A F-35 will not be able to do a job of F-22. While a F-22 will not be able to do a job of F-35. For comparison in the war of Mahabharata, Krishna could not do or would not do the job of Arjun, While Arjun would not have been able to shepherd Krishna.

F-22 serves the role which F-15 used to play. It is responsible for making sure that enemy fighters do not interfere while F-35 and other fighters carry out their task. In fact the issue is as you rightly pointed out that USAF built only 189 of these. If PLAAF/PLAN are able to field a substantial number, i.e. excess of 200 5th generation fighters, then this figure of 189 would fall woefully short. It either shows the supreme confidence of USAF on these fighters or it shows the sheer economic hardships of US as a whole. Moreover the purpose of F-22 was to keep the territory of US, Guam is included in this territory, safe.

[Karan M]

Pirate is a capable system no doubt, and has been iteratively modernized with better software and hardware improvements. Its specifications - imaging detector tech, ability to track upto 200 targets all sound impressive. Its also claimed that with multiple EF's datalinked - Pirates can perform kinematic ranging. All this makes it easy to discount OLS series systems on Russian aircraft as being older or not similarly jazzy. But please remember, the Russians have been making operational IRSTs for a long time. Unlike the Pirate, the Russian IRSTs usually are provided with a LRF function as well for accurate ranging. The newest systems on the MiG-35 (which IAF & IN both picked up) come from a Russian organization called (going by memory) NIIPP which was hitherto in the business of making space communications and optical systems. They came up with a combined OLS with imaging IR/TV sensor/LRF in a more compact package than the earlier standard ones, with better tech (imaging IR) and combined TV sensor plus overall better performance. That will certainly find its way to Flankers as well. Point is the systems on the PAKFA and Su-35 will work & will work well under diverse conditions. In Cope India - the first one - the IAF Su-30Ks successfully used their IRSTs to conduct passive attacks on the USAF F-15s.

Nits - its not as simple as buying a superior plane. Its also about hedging your risks. The IAF is already overreliant on Russia. The Su-30 (270 airframes) and the PAKFA/FGFA (180-250 mentioned) will both come from Russia. So by buying the Rafale & the LCA, the IAF is distributing its risks & ensuring that it has other options available (say if the FGFA gets delayed, it can buy more Rafales and not just Sukhois).
Also, HAL will get a different set of TOT from the Rafale deal, 50% offset means more suppliers will benefit (in India) and the Rafale will be a useful addition to the fleet.
Overall, its not a bad choice at all, and arguably the best choice - which is where I disagree with Christopher Sidor, who pushes for the F/A-18 E/F but ignores how the US consistently restricts TOT to even its partners and also, the fact that the US supports Pakistan whom we are locked in a struggle with. US Groups in the past have consistently pushed for the angle that Arms sales have political benefits to them, and that the US should "use" those sales to pursue its interests. Its one thing to have an engine/engines from the US - if push comes to shove, they can be replaced in our combat aircraft, a handful of transport aircraft and choppers are also ok, but to select the second largest fighter component in your frontline attack fleet? Sorry, but thats a big risk.

Besides which, in terms of performance, the SH is not up there with either the Sukhoi or Rafale in kinematic performance. It carries excess weight because of naval requirements and faced design issues with wing droop to have skewed pylons which add drag. In close combat, its probably fine. In BVR, where speed/agility matter - not.
Also, its design did not take into account the need for an IRST. As a result of which the USN is jury rigging fuel tanks with IRSTs to compensate. The Rafale all said and done, does have space for an IRST, if one were to be developed for the IAF. The EF too has one.

Considering all the factors, IMO, the Rafale was the best choice in the MMRCA and the IAF chose well.

The only thing I had a caveat about was to not write off the Sukhoi either. It too is a very powerful platform and with upgrades will stand well into the next few decades. The Su-35 for instance compares well or is even superior to the Eurocanards in some ways. The Su-30 MKI is going to benefit from that tech, and later the FGFA tech as well. So that too needs to be kept in account.

[Karan M]

has the rafale OSF1 been updated from the mid 90s FOC kit? I heard due to funding cutbacks many french rafales fly with the OSF "deleted" and no word on when a updated OSF2 would be available or funded (perhaps once our first cheque clears!)

wrt to the PIRATE, is it even FOC operational on any of the eurofighter users and seeing any useful work?

to me it seems only the OLS-50 on PAKFA is a guaranteed entity being based on the widely used OLS30.

Samtel Thales will reportedly provide the full up IRST for the Rafale. Hopefully, it will be based on the newer tech and not the original IRST. French Rafales fly with the IRST component deleted from the OSF, but they still have the TV camera and LRF.

Russia now has a similar system on the MiG-35 (IAF chose it for the MiG-29 Upgrade and IN for the MiG-29K),
http://www.slideshare.net/liget/mi-g-29upgrades

[Jaybhatt]

THE RAFALE RELEGATED TO THE SIDELINES BY THE SU-35 AT LE BOURGET - THE RAFALE'S HOMEGROUND
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Although this is from a Russian portal, it is still of interest to us in these shores.

http://rt.com/news/bourget-russian-su-35-fighter-792/

[member_20453]

There has never been a more persistent fanboy on this forum [/quote]

Well I am persistent but not really a fanboy. Believe me when I say I love the Rafale, I have seen it dance in the sky and it is no doubt a capable aircraft, however I think for the same we could get better aircraft that do many more things at far less cost. I see it as a complete waste when we allocate billions more over its life time to Rafale while other services and important plans like the riasing of more strike corps are hit with budget cuts. I believe in a harmonizing spending across the board.

We need tanks with night fighting capability just as much as we need a capable 4.5 gen fighters. I believe EF is the best in terms of overall flight performance but I also know is far too expensive to operate. Same goes for Rafale. SH IMO is the only bird that can do a decent job in all fronts without hurting the wallet too much. It's unmatched in over all build quality and reliability, brings in billions of savings over-all with the same GE engine as the LCA mk-2. It comes with readily proven tech. Recon, Tanking, AWACS, A2A, A2G, Anti ship, it can do all these roles with ease.

I think with MIG-29upg, MKI, we have a good number of birds who can hold their own very well and guard the skies. What we need in the MRCA is a good allrounder, a jack of all trades.

[vishvak]

Any American system - engines being the most complicated ones - is vulnerable as it is. American tech can become strategic vulnerability more than asset. Especially at the time of war, this all could complicate things instead.

[member_20292]

It is just not worth my while to spend more time on the type of posts that have been put up by Sarvashri Eklavya and Prithwiraj.

you just did. i wonder why?

[Victor]

Any American system - engines being the most complicated ones - is vulnerable as it is. American tech can become strategic vulnerability more than asset. Especially at the time of war, this all could complicate things instead.

Why did the IAF and the Government of India entrust the future of India's strategically critical LCA program to the American Super Hornet's engine when we could have chosen the Rafale's or Su-30MKI's engine? We ordered 40 F404s and followed them up with another 100 F414s. Maybe we don't intend to use LCAs in wartime and all of them are only for Republic Day fly pasts?

[Lalmohan]

time to halal this thread

[NRao]

Any American system - engines being the most complicated ones - is vulnerable as it is. American tech can become strategic vulnerability more than asset. Especially at the time of war, this all could complicate things instead.

Why did the IAF and the Government of India entrust the future of India's strategically critical LCA program to the American Super Hornet's engine when we could have chosen the Rafale's or Su-30MKI's engine? We ordered 40 F404s and followed them up with another 100 F414s. Maybe we don't intend to use LCAs in wartime and all of them are only for Republic Day fly pasts?

And pretty much the entire strategic lift command, the Sp ops lift command.

I would think that circumstances would make the two the closest within a decade.

Yet it would be to the benefit of India to develop the engine for sure. Much more can be said.

[keshavchandra]

In my view, we should focus on the LCA's immidiate induction as the planned numbers. At this point of time I really don't think we'll get much in return from mmrca, in terms of the amount which we suppose to spand. So I think we should Just focus on pakfa development and absorb as much of technology we can and utilise it in lca further developments. So just dump the mmrca and utilise the amount in pakfa and lca.

[arthuro]

Once again the rafale beat the Super Hornet in technical evaluations... (3 to 0) Quatar this time :

What France can expect in Qatar

[...]However, the visit should advance some issues, particularly those above the pile as the Rafale (Dassault Aviation), the NH90 (Eurocopter) and the armored wheeled vehicle (8x8) from Nexter. In July, the Rafale had impressed the Qataris after a very positive campaign in hot weather (50 degrees) in Qatar ... no heatstroke unlike some of its U.S. competitors, Boeing, the F-15 and F-18. The Qataris, who need 24 to 36 aircrafts also assessed the Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-16 Block 50/52 (Lockheed Martin). The Rafale would be the preferred of the Qatari pilots and would come out as winner of the technical evaluation according to a close source. Doha, which has twelve aging Mirage 2000-5 could enter into exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation at any time, one says to La Tribune. However, there is little chance for a contract to be signed by the end of the year. But why not 2014...

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... atar-.html

Hollande in Qatar , June 23/24:

Hollande will evoke Saturday during an official visit to Qatar the modernisation of the fleet of fighter aircraft, a contract Dassault hopes to win with the Rafale, it was learned on Wednesday at the Elysee Palace. "This will be discussed," said an adviser to the French president who believes that the case could "evolve" in a few months.[...] The Qatari Air Force has carried out technical trials of the French aircraft, tests convincing compared to others competitors, said one French source.

http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-sect ... 577315.php

[abhik]

Nits - its not as simple as buying a superior plane. Its also about hedging your risks. The IAF is already overreliant on Russia. The Su-30 (270 airframes) and the PAKFA/FGFA (180-250 mentioned) will both come from Russia. So by buying the Rafale & the LCA, the IAF is distributing its risks & ensuring that it has other options available (say if the FGFA gets delayed, it can buy more Rafales and not just Sukhois).

There is better alternative to the Rafale in the LCA. Instead of "hedging" our bets by buying from another country we should learn to be more reliant on our selves.

[Victor]

IMO, qatar choosing the Rafale should be a disincentive for the IAF. That country harbors the taliban and may (probably will) aid the pakis in a conflict. Same for UAE, saudi etc.

[abhik]

^^^
We should ditch the Rafale and angle for those second hand M2000s.

[Karan M]

The US sold Pakistan F-16s, everything else pales in comparison.

Abhik, you are right. But the situation is what it is, and our AF will require a few decades to change to the Navy;s attitude, in which case, we make do with what we have to..

[Victor]

The US sold Pakistan F-16s, everything else pales in comparison.

The French sold Pakistan Mirage III, Mirage V plus Alouette, Atlantique and Falcon 20. The Russians sold them Mi-17, winked away their Thandaa fighter engines and will do the same for the Su-30s that they will be getting from the Chinese. All of this just for being pakis. At least they had to perform good rand!bazi against the soviets to get their F-16s from the Americans.

[Jaybhatt]

It is just not worth my while to spend more time on the type of posts that have been put up by Sarvashri Eklavya and Prithwiraj.

you just did. i wonder why?

Please read the line. I said it was not worth my while to spend "more" time. Understood the phrase ? Doubtful.